| Aries | 11-21-2005 09:31 PM |
Ultimate STI brake kit.
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This is a question, for the brake gurus and racing oriented people.
If you had 10k for brakes, and your soul porpuse is to race, what would you buy.
Would you go with a regular BBK, from Stop Tech or Brembo?
What rotors would you use?
Six piston, 4 piston, two piston?
Monoblock or two piece caliper?
What pedals?
What master cylinder?
Etc..
please, don't move this to the brake forum. people there, don't know nothing about heavy duty racing brakes. at least mos of them don't. and there arent threads like this. since they only talk about street brakes.
If you had 10k for brakes, and your soul porpuse is to race, what would you buy.
Would you go with a regular BBK, from Stop Tech or Brembo?
What rotors would you use?
Six piston, 4 piston, two piston?
Monoblock or two piece caliper?
What pedals?
What master cylinder?
Etc..
please, don't move this to the brake forum. people there, don't know nothing about heavy duty racing brakes. at least mos of them don't. and there arent threads like this. since they only talk about street brakes.
| gregr01 | 11-21-2005 10:32 PM |
Rules of the class are going to dictate what you can do with brakes... SCCA Club Racing? World Challenge? Time Attack?
| Aries | 11-21-2005 10:40 PM |
[QUOTE=gregr01]Rules of the class are going to dictate what you can do with brakes... SCCA Club Racing? World Challenge? Time Attack?[/QUOTE]
World Challenge-GT
World Challenge-GT
| Sko | 11-21-2005 10:59 PM |
AP racing 6-pot front 4-pot rear, isn't that like what nascar or some shizzle uses?
| Homemade WRX | 11-21-2005 11:12 PM |
I would run monoblocks...6pots front and 4pots rear...all on floating rotors
master cylinder(s) would be designed off of brake calculations...as would pedal ratio...being that the calipers and rotors will be the biggest fixed point for choice
if you set a fixed desired (realistic) rate of decelleration you can calculate all of this easily...if you want to find out what you max is/could actually be you will need to know coefficients of friction between tire and road, and dive underbraking....so spring rates and any suspension geometry affecting dive, as well as weights front rear and CG location...
oh and AP is the shiznit, bu is $$$$$
I just got done doing all of this myself so if you need help I can help you out....if you want a plug and play pre-designed kit, the I won't be too much help being I know little about what's available for the STi.
I also have some excel spreadsheets for calculating brake force...
master cylinder(s) would be designed off of brake calculations...as would pedal ratio...being that the calipers and rotors will be the biggest fixed point for choice
if you set a fixed desired (realistic) rate of decelleration you can calculate all of this easily...if you want to find out what you max is/could actually be you will need to know coefficients of friction between tire and road, and dive underbraking....so spring rates and any suspension geometry affecting dive, as well as weights front rear and CG location...
oh and AP is the shiznit, bu is $$$$$
I just got done doing all of this myself so if you need help I can help you out....if you want a plug and play pre-designed kit, the I won't be too much help being I know little about what's available for the STi.
I also have some excel spreadsheets for calculating brake force...
| XT6Wagon | 11-21-2005 11:27 PM |
I'd call AP and see if they have a WRC tarmac setup that fits on stock hubs...
| GarySheehan | 11-21-2005 11:54 PM |
Guys in World Challenge GT are winning on Stoptech front and rears. Stoptech won the World Challenge TC championship.
More money won't necessarily win you races.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
More money won't necessarily win you races.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Usaf*STi | 11-22-2005 12:00 AM |
+ 12345 to Stoptech.
| Aries | 11-22-2005 12:12 AM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]Guys in World Challenge GT are winning on Stoptech front and rears. Stoptech won the World Challenge TC championship.
More money won't necessarily win you races.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Gary,
Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.
What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?
How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?
More money won't necessarily win you races.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Gary,
Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.
What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?
How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?
| no-coast-punk | 11-22-2005 01:27 AM |
[url]http://www.alcon.co.uk/[/url]
End of discussion.
Now what REALLY are your goals?
End of discussion.
Now what REALLY are your goals?
| Homemade WRX | 11-22-2005 01:30 AM |
I forgot about stoptechs...there kits look really good and come with floating rotors...
also forgot about alcon
also forgot about alcon
| Phil Jr. | 11-22-2005 03:20 AM |
well, you always have these:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=737814&highlight=monobloc[/url]
but why not do something a little more fancy. Say, watercooling? :D
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=737814&highlight=monobloc[/url]
but why not do something a little more fancy. Say, watercooling? :D
| silentbob343 | 11-22-2005 03:26 AM |
[QUOTE=XT6Wagon]I'd call AP and see if they have a WRC tarmac setup that fits on stock hubs...[/QUOTE]
lol with water cooled front calipers ;) In other news Subaru/Prodrive didn't use Alcon brakes this year.
[url]http://www.engineering-uk.co.uk/eng_news.taf?_function=detail&_record=224739&_UserReference=C3677C0001E74916C5A03899&_start=1[/url]
Anybody know what they moved to?
lol with water cooled front calipers ;) In other news Subaru/Prodrive didn't use Alcon brakes this year.
[url]http://www.engineering-uk.co.uk/eng_news.taf?_function=detail&_record=224739&_UserReference=C3677C0001E74916C5A03899&_start=1[/url]
Anybody know what they moved to?
| XT6Wagon | 11-22-2005 05:30 AM |
Aries, I'd call stoptech and find out what specificly they advise for your application.
Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...
I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.
Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...
I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.
| jnorth85 | 11-22-2005 09:59 AM |
also this company makes a good 6 pot
[url]www.twrracing.com[/url]
[url]www.twrracing.com[/url]
| turboICE | 11-22-2005 10:23 AM |
[QUOTE=Aries]If you had 10k for brakes, and your soul porpuse is to race, what would you buy.[/QUOTE]Which car model in WCGT?
For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.
WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.
LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.
Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.
For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.
WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.
LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.
Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.
| Aries | 11-22-2005 10:47 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Which car model in WCGT?
For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.
WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.
LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.
Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you say. But our car, will have over 450whp. Our straights are 1/3 mile long. Stock brembos, just don't cut it. They have failed us in the past. And that was with 315 to the wheels. Know its 450 to the wheels. Plus we also have endurance races. We want to make an optimum brake kit. There will be two drivers, one is experienced, the other one has some, but not as much as our senior driver.
We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.
For instance, if it is an STi, I would put DS3000 pads on and a new set of tires and spend 9k on track time to improve my braking skills. The result would be far better than any 10k brake kit and also would be something that provided a permanent benefit.
WRX - then I would go with something off the shelf that has been shown to be competitive in pro racing from a place that has a clue about what the dynamics of braking are. Never used them but stop-tech comes to mind. And then take 7k on track time to improve my braking skills.
LGT don't know what brakes they have but you get the idea of where I think the money is best spent.
Braking is the skill that takes the longest to learn well for a driver - money spent on the driver's skill would pay a lot of dividends.[/QUOTE]
I understand what you say. But our car, will have over 450whp. Our straights are 1/3 mile long. Stock brembos, just don't cut it. They have failed us in the past. And that was with 315 to the wheels. Know its 450 to the wheels. Plus we also have endurance races. We want to make an optimum brake kit. There will be two drivers, one is experienced, the other one has some, but not as much as our senior driver.
We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.
| turboICE | 11-22-2005 11:33 AM |
Well you did what would we buy - not what you should buy! ;)
With those types of resources I would expect a team to have access to better information than most of us could provide.
Honestly - at the level of competition you are talking about I doubt this particular forum is the place to come to. With the exception of a couple people, most have not done anything more on tarmac than sprint races in club classing that have low levels of preparation permitted.
To start with HP has little to do with your issue unless you have big gearing changes. The need to pull the car down from 160mph to 50mph is the same no matter how much power is made. Highest speed reduction needed, car weight, tire traction and driver skill have much more to do with it.
Never having run the STi competitively, but having had an '04 on Watkins Glen several times including for an hour straight going from the top of sixth gear into bus stop on street tires - I can see where the OEM brakes would not be suited to the competition level you talking about. But at the same time I don't know that anyone on this board really would have an answer. I haven't seen any WRX or STi MC swaps for instance by anyone.
I think I would look to what they are using in JGTC.
With those types of resources I would expect a team to have access to better information than most of us could provide.
Honestly - at the level of competition you are talking about I doubt this particular forum is the place to come to. With the exception of a couple people, most have not done anything more on tarmac than sprint races in club classing that have low levels of preparation permitted.
To start with HP has little to do with your issue unless you have big gearing changes. The need to pull the car down from 160mph to 50mph is the same no matter how much power is made. Highest speed reduction needed, car weight, tire traction and driver skill have much more to do with it.
Never having run the STi competitively, but having had an '04 on Watkins Glen several times including for an hour straight going from the top of sixth gear into bus stop on street tires - I can see where the OEM brakes would not be suited to the competition level you talking about. But at the same time I don't know that anyone on this board really would have an answer. I haven't seen any WRX or STi MC swaps for instance by anyone.
I think I would look to what they are using in JGTC.
| infantsam | 11-22-2005 12:00 PM |
subscribed
| turboICE | 11-22-2005 12:26 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]subscribed[/QUOTE]
Use the thread tools link at the top ^ ;)
Use the thread tools link at the top ^ ;)
| Butt Dyno | 11-22-2005 12:42 PM |
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871566&highlight=monoblock[/url]
[QUOTE=FLEMON]Would the Tilton 3 piece floor-mounted pedals work?
I think that the STASIS WC-TC Audi has them. Not 100% sure though.[/QUOTE]
Are you the same person that posted that thread?
[QUOTE=Aries]What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=FLEMON]Would the Tilton 3 piece floor-mounted pedals work?
I think that the STASIS WC-TC Audi has them. Not 100% sure though.[/QUOTE]
Are you the same person that posted that thread?
[QUOTE=Aries]What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? [/QUOTE]
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 12:56 PM |
[QUOTE=XT6Wagon]Aries, I'd call stoptech and find out what specificly they advise for your application.
Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...
I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.[/QUOTE]
XT6Wagon,
What you are describing is a function of pads, not of bias. The brake pads you are using must take a stop or two to warm up properly to get into their operating range. What pads are you using?
The physical proportioning of the bias is not really dynamic as you describe. It will perform the same for one or two stops or repeated braking events on the track. You just need to select the pad compound that best suits your needs. This goes for every braking system, not Stoptech alone.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Personaly I am not real hot on thier ideas for street brakes. The actual reduction of front braking force compared to the stock LGT brakes isn't a happy thing. I'm sure that making the braking bias slightly more rearward is a good idea to keep most cars happy with upgraded front brakes, but man does it blow when you are trying to stop from speed. So... its a impressive piece for improving lap times from a night and day reduction in fade and increased duriblity.... But for one or two stops a Stock LGT would outstop a LGT with stoptechs (assuming good tires, like RE-070's). I've done other upgrades to other cars that increased the front bias of the brakes when done as a front brake only deal. IE move the same caliper an extra 1" out with a larger rotor. 2 pot cast iron "junk" and still the fastest decelerating car I have been in from 130 down...
I'd upgrade the STi's brembos for the sole reason of ditching some of that massive unsprung wieght that they have.[/QUOTE]
XT6Wagon,
What you are describing is a function of pads, not of bias. The brake pads you are using must take a stop or two to warm up properly to get into their operating range. What pads are you using?
The physical proportioning of the bias is not really dynamic as you describe. It will perform the same for one or two stops or repeated braking events on the track. You just need to select the pad compound that best suits your needs. This goes for every braking system, not Stoptech alone.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 01:02 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]Gary,
Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.
What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?
How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?[/QUOTE]
The only reason to go with a 6 piston caliper is for longer pad life. If you do not use up a set of pads in a race (or race weekend, or whatever parameter you want to set), then there is no reason to go with the bigger 6 piston caliper. Remember that it is extra unsprung weight that you need to carry around.
I've read that some of the monoblocks are actually more flexy than the StopTechs, so be aware.
Regarding pedal boxes, talk to Steve Ruiz, Stoptech's Director of Engineering. He's seen them both in action and will be able to tell you a preference bases soley on engineering merit.
Discuss the whole project with Steve and I think he will guide you well. He is a racing engineer and understands exactly what is involved.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Is there much difference between, the 6 piston Brembo or Alcon mono and the 4 piston Stop-techs? I am obviously talking about performance. Also, what rotors? I know that there is allot more than just calipers, to make a car stop, and more important, keep stoping for the duration of the race.
What pedals should I choose? Ap pedal box? Tilton 3 piece floor mounted pedal box? What cylinders, etc?
How much would a complete stop-tech kit, incluiding pedals, cylinders etc go for?[/QUOTE]
The only reason to go with a 6 piston caliper is for longer pad life. If you do not use up a set of pads in a race (or race weekend, or whatever parameter you want to set), then there is no reason to go with the bigger 6 piston caliper. Remember that it is extra unsprung weight that you need to carry around.
I've read that some of the monoblocks are actually more flexy than the StopTechs, so be aware.
Regarding pedal boxes, talk to Steve Ruiz, Stoptech's Director of Engineering. He's seen them both in action and will be able to tell you a preference bases soley on engineering merit.
Discuss the whole project with Steve and I think he will guide you well. He is a racing engineer and understands exactly what is involved.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]I understand what you say. But our car, will have over 450whp. Our straights are 1/3 mile long. Stock brembos, just don't cut it. They have failed us in the past. And that was with 315 to the wheels. Know its 450 to the wheels. Plus we also have endurance races. We want to make an optimum brake kit. There will be two drivers, one is experienced, the other one has some, but not as much as our senior driver.
We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.[/QUOTE]
Aries,
Stoptech have won races on Lou Gillotti's WCGT Vette. The Aerorotor has lasted the entire 24 Hours of Daytona on Daytona Prototypes. These brakes work well on high HP, high speed applications.
However, you MUST run ducts to any brake system that's being raced. Do you have ducting, or will you have ducting? Without ducting, pretty much every braking system will underperform.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.[/QUOTE]
Aries,
Stoptech have won races on Lou Gillotti's WCGT Vette. The Aerorotor has lasted the entire 24 Hours of Daytona on Daytona Prototypes. These brakes work well on high HP, high speed applications.
However, you MUST run ducts to any brake system that's being raced. Do you have ducting, or will you have ducting? Without ducting, pretty much every braking system will underperform.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Aries | 11-22-2005 01:45 PM |
Yes, we have 3 inch ducts. Although, they don't seem to be working or are not positioned well.
Were can I contact Mr.Ruiz?
Were can I contact Mr.Ruiz?
| Aries | 11-22-2005 01:46 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno][url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=871566&highlight=monoblock[/url]
Are you the same person that posted that thread?[/QUOTE]
He is the unexperienced driver, that I talked about.
I am not the same person. But yes, we are talking about the same car and same team.
Are you the same person that posted that thread?[/QUOTE]
He is the unexperienced driver, that I talked about.
I am not the same person. But yes, we are talking about the same car and same team.
| Aries | 11-22-2005 01:52 PM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]The only reason to go with a 6 piston caliper is for longer pad life. If you do not use up a set of pads in a race (or race weekend, or whatever parameter you want to set), then there is no reason to go with the bigger 6 piston caliper. Remember that it is extra unsprung weight that you need to carry around.
I've read that some of the monoblocks are actually more flexy than the StopTechs, so be aware.
Regarding pedal boxes, talk to Steve Ruiz, Stoptech's Director of Engineering. He's seen them both in action and will be able to tell you a preference bases soley on engineering merit.
Discuss the whole project with Steve and I think he will guide you well. He is a racing engineer and understands exactly what is involved.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Hahaha you really like Stoptech's don't you, Gary?
Less flexy than a brembo or alcon or ap racing monoblock caliper? I don't have experience with them, but I guess you do.
Do they make specific calipers for street and other for racing?
Pad wear is pretty heavy on our car.
I've read that some of the monoblocks are actually more flexy than the StopTechs, so be aware.
Regarding pedal boxes, talk to Steve Ruiz, Stoptech's Director of Engineering. He's seen them both in action and will be able to tell you a preference bases soley on engineering merit.
Discuss the whole project with Steve and I think he will guide you well. He is a racing engineer and understands exactly what is involved.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Hahaha you really like Stoptech's don't you, Gary?
Less flexy than a brembo or alcon or ap racing monoblock caliper? I don't have experience with them, but I guess you do.
Do they make specific calipers for street and other for racing?
Pad wear is pretty heavy on our car.
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 02:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]Hahaha you really like Stoptech's don't you, Gary?
Less flexy than a brembo or alcon or ap racing monoblock caliper? I don't have experience with them, but I guess you do.
Do they make specific calipers for street and other for racing?
Pad wear is pretty heavy on our car.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I really like Stoptech. They have supported me in racing in the past, but my appreciation for them goes well beyond that. They have the physics figured out. They put the physics first. They are small enough to talk to you about your specific application and provide you with something that can meet your specific needs.
Unlike many other brake manufacturers, you could consider Stoptech a racing brake system consultant. Give Steve a call at 31-325-4799 and tell him what you are trying to do, including pedal box.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Less flexy than a brembo or alcon or ap racing monoblock caliper? I don't have experience with them, but I guess you do.
Do they make specific calipers for street and other for racing?
Pad wear is pretty heavy on our car.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I really like Stoptech. They have supported me in racing in the past, but my appreciation for them goes well beyond that. They have the physics figured out. They put the physics first. They are small enough to talk to you about your specific application and provide you with something that can meet your specific needs.
Unlike many other brake manufacturers, you could consider Stoptech a racing brake system consultant. Give Steve a call at 31-325-4799 and tell him what you are trying to do, including pedal box.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Aries | 11-22-2005 02:07 PM |
Could you possibly provide me with his email, or an email were I can give him my email?
| infantsam | 11-22-2005 02:27 PM |
I'd suggest the drilled pistons are worth it as a heat barrier
Monoblocs likely provide some increased heat sink/transfer capabilities and more precise alignment than a bolted caliper (they better be for 3k each)
There are a few more rotor choices in the race only big name stuff (thickness - number of vanes - plate thickness)
Thats definitely gonna cost you though and may only offer incremental improvements. Those parts are more typically used on yet heavier and more powerful cars as well.
Looking for ways to remove system compliance might get you the improvements you are looking for as compared to a cost no issue caliper and rotors. You might consider starting with some known weaknesses such as the pedals, MC, firewall before going after the calipers/rotors.
Monoblocs likely provide some increased heat sink/transfer capabilities and more precise alignment than a bolted caliper (they better be for 3k each)
There are a few more rotor choices in the race only big name stuff (thickness - number of vanes - plate thickness)
Thats definitely gonna cost you though and may only offer incremental improvements. Those parts are more typically used on yet heavier and more powerful cars as well.
Looking for ways to remove system compliance might get you the improvements you are looking for as compared to a cost no issue caliper and rotors. You might consider starting with some known weaknesses such as the pedals, MC, firewall before going after the calipers/rotors.
| Aries | 11-22-2005 02:39 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]I'd suggest the drilled pistons are worth it as a heat barrier
Monoblocs likely provide some increased heat sink/transfer capabilities and more precise alignment than a bolted caliper (they better be for 3k each)
There are a few more rotor choices in the race only big name stuff (thickness - number of vanes - plate thickness)
Thats definitely gonna cost you though and may only offer incremental improvements. Those parts are more typically used on yet heavier and more powerful cars as well.
Looking for ways to remove system compliance might get you the improvements you are looking for as compared to a cost no issue caliper and rotors. You might consider starting with some known weaknesses such as the pedals, MC, firewall before going after the calipers/rotors.[/QUOTE]
What pedals do you recomend?
Also what master cylinder?
Firewall?
Monoblocs likely provide some increased heat sink/transfer capabilities and more precise alignment than a bolted caliper (they better be for 3k each)
There are a few more rotor choices in the race only big name stuff (thickness - number of vanes - plate thickness)
Thats definitely gonna cost you though and may only offer incremental improvements. Those parts are more typically used on yet heavier and more powerful cars as well.
Looking for ways to remove system compliance might get you the improvements you are looking for as compared to a cost no issue caliper and rotors. You might consider starting with some known weaknesses such as the pedals, MC, firewall before going after the calipers/rotors.[/QUOTE]
What pedals do you recomend?
Also what master cylinder?
Firewall?
| XT6Wagon | 11-22-2005 02:40 PM |
Gary, I have no doubt thier *racing* setups are top notch. Thier street setups however are not my cup of tea for the reasons stated. I use a street pad in it since I don't want to screw with racing pads, and comming from the insta-fade stock brakes they seem fade proof. Plus I need to still learn to control my braking better. IE first learn to drive to the equipment, then get better equipment if actualy looking for lap times instead of driver development.
Basicly even warm, I've lost peak braking ablity. Now its still very good compared to most cars, but its still a loss. Also it still will be a hell of alot faster at nearly any track as you are not in complete brake management mode for every single lap.
Basicly even warm, I've lost peak braking ablity. Now its still very good compared to most cars, but its still a loss. Also it still will be a hell of alot faster at nearly any track as you are not in complete brake management mode for every single lap.
| infantsam | 11-22-2005 02:47 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]What pedals do you recomend?
Also what master cylinder?
Firewall?[/QUOTE]
I cannot help you with that
But your comments indicated that you were more unhappy with the feel/pedal/balance type issues as opposed to the ultimate heat capacity of the systems at the wheel (rotor/caliper). The MC/firewall/pedals are production pieces and while decent surely must add lots of compliance which is the enemy of feel and response. Even a street driven subie benefits from the MC brace. Thats why i suggested looking at all that stuff first - then look back at your corner components to see if anything needs improving.
Also what master cylinder?
Firewall?[/QUOTE]
I cannot help you with that
But your comments indicated that you were more unhappy with the feel/pedal/balance type issues as opposed to the ultimate heat capacity of the systems at the wheel (rotor/caliper). The MC/firewall/pedals are production pieces and while decent surely must add lots of compliance which is the enemy of feel and response. Even a street driven subie benefits from the MC brace. Thats why i suggested looking at all that stuff first - then look back at your corner components to see if anything needs improving.
| trhoppe | 11-22-2005 05:05 PM |
Anyone notice +100K member?
-Tom
-Tom
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 05:31 PM |
[QUOTE=XT6Wagon]Gary, I have no doubt thier *racing* setups are top notch. Thier street setups however are not my cup of tea for the reasons stated. I use a street pad in it since I don't want to screw with racing pads, and comming from the insta-fade stock brakes they seem fade proof. Plus I need to still learn to control my braking better. IE first learn to drive to the equipment, then get better equipment if actualy looking for lap times instead of driver development.
Basicly even warm, I've lost peak braking ablity. Now its still very good compared to most cars, but its still a loss. Also it still will be a hell of alot faster at nearly any track as you are not in complete brake management mode for every single lap.[/QUOTE]
XT6Wagon,
How are you determined that you've lost peak braking ability? If you tell me "it just feels like it", I'm going to roll my eyes at you. You realize that in order for this to happen, you are saying that you cannot lock your front brakes or get into ABS in the first couple of stops, right? What brakepads, specifically, are you using? What you are saying is impossible unless you are using racing pads that take several stops to warm up. It has nothing to do with piston sizes. If they get better after several stops, it's pads. If they never get better and it always feels bad, check your piston sizes and call Stoptech.
StopTech's "racing" setup IS their "street" setup. They make no distinction. The brakes that are on all the winning racecars are exactly the same caliper design for the street. They use race pads for racing and street pads for street.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Basicly even warm, I've lost peak braking ablity. Now its still very good compared to most cars, but its still a loss. Also it still will be a hell of alot faster at nearly any track as you are not in complete brake management mode for every single lap.[/QUOTE]
XT6Wagon,
How are you determined that you've lost peak braking ability? If you tell me "it just feels like it", I'm going to roll my eyes at you. You realize that in order for this to happen, you are saying that you cannot lock your front brakes or get into ABS in the first couple of stops, right? What brakepads, specifically, are you using? What you are saying is impossible unless you are using racing pads that take several stops to warm up. It has nothing to do with piston sizes. If they get better after several stops, it's pads. If they never get better and it always feels bad, check your piston sizes and call Stoptech.
StopTech's "racing" setup IS their "street" setup. They make no distinction. The brakes that are on all the winning racecars are exactly the same caliper design for the street. They use race pads for racing and street pads for street.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| turboICE | 11-22-2005 05:46 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Anyone notice +100K member?
-Tom[/QUOTE]I don't know that I could vote for moderatorship for someone who posts OT so much! ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]I don't know that I could vote for moderatorship for someone who posts OT so much! ;)
| GarySheehan | 11-22-2005 06:40 PM |
Here's an article that directly applies to the topic regarding monobloc calipers. This paper was written by Carrol Smith. Stoptech was given permission to use this document on their website.
Pretty interesting stuff.
[url]http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Pretty interesting stuff.
[url]http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml[/url]
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| no-coast-punk | 11-22-2005 08:45 PM |
Great article gary. Thank you.
Anybody up for building a database of the mod. of elasticity of all the "off the shelf" calipers out there?
Anybody up for building a database of the mod. of elasticity of all the "off the shelf" calipers out there?
| Aries | 11-23-2005 07:22 PM |
bump...
| Homemade WRX | 11-23-2005 08:15 PM |
[QUOTE=no-coast-punk]Great article gary. Thank you.
Anybody up for building a database of the mod. of elasticity of all the "off the shelf" calipers out there?[/QUOTE]
yeeeeaaaaahhhhhh....that stuff won't be easy to find...or to test...it could be calculated if the rest of the variables could be controlled...well, just the amount of braking power lost by the deflection of the caliper...so you could relate it in % of power lost through caliper flex...
Anybody up for building a database of the mod. of elasticity of all the "off the shelf" calipers out there?[/QUOTE]
yeeeeaaaaahhhhhh....that stuff won't be easy to find...or to test...it could be calculated if the rest of the variables could be controlled...well, just the amount of braking power lost by the deflection of the caliper...so you could relate it in % of power lost through caliper flex...
| Aries | 11-27-2005 10:34 PM |
Gary,
I spoke with Stoptech. With Matt Weiss if I am not mistaken. They offered me a 4 piston front setup. But they don't have a rear setup for the STI. I don't think that keeping the rear calipers is a good idea, considering that the class and car.
I also spoke with STASIS Engeeniering. They told me that they were in the final process of making a 6 piston monoblock front setup for the STI. Just like the one they have for the Evo.
We still don't know what to do with pedals though. Keep the stock ones? Buy the 5k AP racing pedal box? Buy the cheaper Tilton pedal box?
I spoke with Stoptech. With Matt Weiss if I am not mistaken. They offered me a 4 piston front setup. But they don't have a rear setup for the STI. I don't think that keeping the rear calipers is a good idea, considering that the class and car.
I also spoke with STASIS Engeeniering. They told me that they were in the final process of making a 6 piston monoblock front setup for the STI. Just like the one they have for the Evo.
We still don't know what to do with pedals though. Keep the stock ones? Buy the 5k AP racing pedal box? Buy the cheaper Tilton pedal box?
| DILLIGAF Racing | 11-27-2005 10:45 PM |
I want pictures of this car
| infantsam | 11-27-2005 10:56 PM |
5k for pedals? whoa
Here's a thought - relplace some of the cheap parts in the STi pedals and maybe it'll work a lot better. I'd guess there is some way to improve the pedal pivot - ie there may be a cheap plastic bushing and/or flexy mounting bracket that can be stiffened pretty easily for a lot less than 5k. The MC actuator attachments is another spot. Have someone lay down and watch while someone slams on the pedal and watch everything move around (or not). Make the things that move stiffer.
Here's a thought - relplace some of the cheap parts in the STi pedals and maybe it'll work a lot better. I'd guess there is some way to improve the pedal pivot - ie there may be a cheap plastic bushing and/or flexy mounting bracket that can be stiffened pretty easily for a lot less than 5k. The MC actuator attachments is another spot. Have someone lay down and watch while someone slams on the pedal and watch everything move around (or not). Make the things that move stiffer.
| Homemade WRX | 11-27-2005 11:14 PM |
5k for pedals :eek: ...I'll price you out the carbon fiber and cnc'd aluminum one's I'm fabbing up for our formula car...price including lines, master cylinders, etc....hell our entire brake system including machined/custom floating rotors...I guarantee it will be about 1/5th that cost
tilton makes some good stuff...they get a thumbs up from me and my limited experience with them
tilton makes some good stuff...they get a thumbs up from me and my limited experience with them
| Aries | 11-27-2005 11:16 PM |
These are the $4,600 pedals. Don't really know why so pricey. Can someone explain this to me?
[img]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4457/0073hg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/9549/img51255po.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4457/0073hg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/9549/img51255po.jpg[/img]
| Aries | 11-28-2005 04:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]Gary,
I spoke with Stoptech. With Matt Weiss if I am not mistaken. They offered me a 4 piston front setup. But they don't have a rear setup for the STI. I don't think that keeping the rear calipers is a good idea, considering that the class and car.
I also spoke with STASIS Engeeniering. They told me that they were in the final process of making a 6 piston monoblock front setup for the STI. Just like the one they have for the Evo.
We still don't know what to do with pedals though. Keep the stock ones? Buy the 5k AP racing pedal box? Buy the cheaper Tilton pedal box?[/QUOTE]
Bump..
I spoke with Stoptech. With Matt Weiss if I am not mistaken. They offered me a 4 piston front setup. But they don't have a rear setup for the STI. I don't think that keeping the rear calipers is a good idea, considering that the class and car.
I also spoke with STASIS Engeeniering. They told me that they were in the final process of making a 6 piston monoblock front setup for the STI. Just like the one they have for the Evo.
We still don't know what to do with pedals though. Keep the stock ones? Buy the 5k AP racing pedal box? Buy the cheaper Tilton pedal box?[/QUOTE]
Bump..
| Aries | 11-28-2005 04:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Aries]These are the $4,600 pedals. Don't really know why so pricey. Can someone explain this to me?
[img]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4457/0073hg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/9549/img51255po.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Bump..
any info on these? or does anyone know why do cost almost $5,000?
[img]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/4457/0073hg.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img491.imageshack.us/img491/9549/img51255po.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
Bump..
any info on these? or does anyone know why do cost almost $5,000?
| Butt Dyno | 11-28-2005 04:13 PM |
[SIZE=1]Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 95; PalmSource; Blazer 3.0) 16;160x160)[/SIZE]
I know this is a crazy idea, but why not just start tracking the car as-is and fix deficiencies as they arise? Maybe the stock pedals are fine...
I know this is a crazy idea, but why not just start tracking the car as-is and fix deficiencies as they arise? Maybe the stock pedals are fine...
| Porsche914boxer4 | 11-28-2005 04:20 PM |
I think this Aries guy needs to use more commas. haha
| infantsam | 11-28-2005 04:23 PM |
That sticker on the middle pedal has to be at least $2500 or so.....and if you had any problem with any of it I'd bet the customer service would be excellent
| trhoppe | 11-28-2005 04:28 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Anyone notice +100K member?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I called it ladies and gentelmen. A long time ago.
-Tom
y0 which be the best break kit y0!
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I called it ladies and gentelmen. A long time ago.
-Tom
y0 which be the best break kit y0!
| javid | 11-29-2005 11:11 AM |
with 10k, I would
use my stock Brembos
run ducts front and rear
run two piece floating rotors front and rear
rig up an in-car brake bias controller
buy $8k in brake pads
..... and learn how to brake like the pros
^^^ > all you brake companies
:devil:
use my stock Brembos
run ducts front and rear
run two piece floating rotors front and rear
rig up an in-car brake bias controller
buy $8k in brake pads
..... and learn how to brake like the pros
^^^ > all you brake companies
:devil:
| turboICE | 11-29-2005 11:19 AM |
[QUOTE=Aries]We think, that one of the weakest points in the STI, is the brakes. We don't wanna buy a 3k brake kit, that is going to the the exact same thing as stock.
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.[/QUOTE]
What specifically is the problem with them. These are generic descriptors that don't lend much light on what you would want to be better than them?
I have never seen a complaint on the MC before except for compliance and flex which is resolved by a brace.
Other than "better brakes" exactly what specification do you desire to be improved over the OEM calipers?
We also are concerned with the weight. We want to bring the weight of the car down.
The master cylinder of the STI, is crap. So has anyone tried a dif upgrades master cylinder? The subarus pedal feel, is horrible after 8 hard laps.[/QUOTE]
What specifically is the problem with them. These are generic descriptors that don't lend much light on what you would want to be better than them?
I have never seen a complaint on the MC before except for compliance and flex which is resolved by a brace.
Other than "better brakes" exactly what specification do you desire to be improved over the OEM calipers?
| bkwrx | 11-29-2005 07:07 PM |
hey guy since you are trying to build a race car i think you should get this book it's called engineer to win the author name is carroll smith, he is a former f1 engineer, the isbn # is0-87938-186-8
| bkwrx | 11-29-2005 07:15 PM |
the publisher is mbi publishing company. or call classic motor books@ 1800 8266600. if you need more info on the book let me know pm me.
| turboICE | 11-29-2005 10:03 PM |
I prefer buying directly from his site: [url]http://www.carrollsmith.com/books/index.html[/url]
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