| trhoppe | 12-16-2003 03:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] I'm guessing you've got 1/4 mile bragging rights for an STX-legal car. :disco:
Guess I'll have to go beat that time one of these days, since I know you LOVE getting beat by grocery-getters!:devil:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I almost have bragging rights on all stock turbo cars w/o touching the boost ;)
Have I mentioned lately that KC is a bastard?? :disco:
-Tom
[B] I'm guessing you've got 1/4 mile bragging rights for an STX-legal car. :disco:
Guess I'll have to go beat that time one of these days, since I know you LOVE getting beat by grocery-getters!:devil:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I almost have bragging rights on all stock turbo cars w/o touching the boost ;)
Have I mentioned lately that KC is a bastard?? :disco:
-Tom
| angryfist | 12-16-2003 03:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
The rule does state that you can use ANY piggyback. "Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of the engine management system." It is just worded very explicitly, because the word "piggyback" can be stretched. What they are describing in the rule, is a pure piggyback computer. The UTEC is not a pure piggyback computer, it has its own coil pack driver. That is not piggyback. The unichip along with the hondata IS a piggyback and you can use those. The unichip kinda blows, but there is nothing you can do about that other then develop one, like the hondata people did, that doesn't suck :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason
The rule does state that you can use ANY piggyback. "Electronic components may be installed inline between an engine's sensors and ECU. These components may alter the signal coming from the sensor in order to affect the ECU's operation of the engine management system." It is just worded very explicitly, because the word "piggyback" can be stretched. What they are describing in the rule, is a pure piggyback computer. The UTEC is not a pure piggyback computer, it has its own coil pack driver. That is not piggyback. The unichip along with the hondata IS a piggyback and you can use those. The unichip kinda blows, but there is nothing you can do about that other then develop one, like the hondata people did, that doesn't suck :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason
| trhoppe | 12-16-2003 03:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by angryfist[/i]
[B] the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE]
Well then it is NOT legal. Exactly why the SCCA specifies the exact wording rather then just saying "piggyback"
-Tom
[B] the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE]
Well then it is NOT legal. Exactly why the SCCA specifies the exact wording rather then just saying "piggyback"
-Tom
| Davenow | 12-16-2003 04:51 PM |
dude, its not legal. accept it.
Stop argueing it with us, we dont make the rules, call them.
BTW, what are crash bolts?:confused:
Stop argueing it with us, we dont make the rules, call them.
BTW, what are crash bolts?:confused:
| AUTOwrXER | 12-16-2003 05:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow[/i]
[B] dude, its not legal. accept it.
Stop argueing it with us, we dont make the rules, call them.
BTW, what are crash bolts?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion.
[B] dude, its not legal. accept it.
Stop argueing it with us, we dont make the rules, call them.
BTW, what are crash bolts?:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion.
| ChrisW | 12-16-2003 05:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]
As far as the ECUtek goes. My "untuned" ECUtek that was guessed on by shiv has performed awesome. The car has not pinged once, runs cool EGTs to redline, and run acceptably rich on the deltadash road dyno. It also ran a [email�protected] with stock boost on a stock turbo ;)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Tom,
Vishnu's ECUTek reflash was not a guess, but the result of some expensive dyno time on my part. Glad you like it :)
[B]
As far as the ECUtek goes. My "untuned" ECUtek that was guessed on by shiv has performed awesome. The car has not pinged once, runs cool EGTs to redline, and run acceptably rich on the deltadash road dyno. It also ran a [email�protected] with stock boost on a stock turbo ;)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Tom,
Vishnu's ECUTek reflash was not a guess, but the result of some expensive dyno time on my part. Glad you like it :)
| AUTOwrXER | 12-16-2003 05:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by angryfist[/i]
[B] the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE]
Just one other thing since the words "piggyback" and "stand alone" are being used quite a bit. The UTEC could not function without the ECU, and is by no menas a stand alone system. I personally don't want stand-alone engine management in the class, and I doubt the SEB does either.
I imagine that the rules were written to allow timing and fuel changes, and as most systems on the market do this in a way that currently reads as illegal, perhaps it should be re-written. Of course, I could be completely wrong and the SEB may have had other intentions, and for that reason I have asked a member to take a look at this thread. He will be doing so in the next few days. If the current writing of the rule is making a number of options illegal that should not be, then I'll suggest a revision to the rule with the input of people here and in the SCCAForums group.
Joel
[B] the rules are stated that you can use a piggy back computer then teh greddy emanage would have more legallity then a UTEC. the emanage is a full piggyback unit with no standalone capabilities. this could be stretched to be legal. the only part that would void its legality is the fact that is alters teh signal coming out of the ECU.
-Jason [/B][/QUOTE]
Just one other thing since the words "piggyback" and "stand alone" are being used quite a bit. The UTEC could not function without the ECU, and is by no menas a stand alone system. I personally don't want stand-alone engine management in the class, and I doubt the SEB does either.
I imagine that the rules were written to allow timing and fuel changes, and as most systems on the market do this in a way that currently reads as illegal, perhaps it should be re-written. Of course, I could be completely wrong and the SEB may have had other intentions, and for that reason I have asked a member to take a look at this thread. He will be doing so in the next few days. If the current writing of the rule is making a number of options illegal that should not be, then I'll suggest a revision to the rule with the input of people here and in the SCCAForums group.
Joel
| MNbiker | 12-16-2003 05:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AUTOwrXER [/i]
[B]Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, go figure....I think this has been a pretty tame & intelligent discussion, as forum threads go.
(If you want to read rabid rants & foolishness, go [URL=http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000233;p=1]here[/URL] )
[B]Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah, go figure....I think this has been a pretty tame & intelligent discussion, as forum threads go.
(If you want to read rabid rants & foolishness, go [URL=http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000233;p=1]here[/URL] )
| AUTOwrXER | 12-16-2003 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW[/i]
[B] Tom,
Vishnu's ECUTek reflash was not a guess, but the result of some expensive dyno time on my part. Glad you like it :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately my experience was different. The Vishnu map was not close, and I felt I could do better on a dyno-tuned Unichip (plus avoid the issues with boost that i mentioned previously). The trouble is that the Unichip is hard as hell to tune. As to why the Vishnu map wasn't working for me, I think my header makes a significant difference. The car does run a bit more boost than before I put it on. I'm also running an intake, which is another thing Shiv doesn't believe in :)
[B] Tom,
Vishnu's ECUTek reflash was not a guess, but the result of some expensive dyno time on my part. Glad you like it :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately my experience was different. The Vishnu map was not close, and I felt I could do better on a dyno-tuned Unichip (plus avoid the issues with boost that i mentioned previously). The trouble is that the Unichip is hard as hell to tune. As to why the Vishnu map wasn't working for me, I think my header makes a significant difference. The car does run a bit more boost than before I put it on. I'm also running an intake, which is another thing Shiv doesn't believe in :)
| AUTOwrXER | 12-16-2003 05:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Yeah, go figure....I think this has been a pretty tame & intelligent discussion, as forum threads go.
(If you want to read rabid rants & foolishness, go [URL=http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000233;p=1]here[/URL] ) [/B][/QUOTE]
Great link. So they're "overdogs" already, eh? The best part will be that The Winch generates a textbook full of statistics that everyone will subsequently ignore :lol:
[B] Yeah, go figure....I think this has been a pretty tame & intelligent discussion, as forum threads go.
(If you want to read rabid rants & foolishness, go [URL=http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=19;t=000233;p=1]here[/URL] ) [/B][/QUOTE]
Great link. So they're "overdogs" already, eh? The best part will be that The Winch generates a textbook full of statistics that everyone will subsequently ignore :lol:
| AWMIII | 12-16-2003 05:21 PM |
crash bolts are bolts like the front "camber" bolts on the wrx that allow for more adjustability. They are called "crash bolts" because many service manuals call for the use of these bolts to bring a car back into alignment spec after an accident or when a car can't be aligned to factory spec. Some people in stock classes use the factory service manual to allow them to use these bolts to acheive a more perfect autox alignment than the factory part allows.
| Knowledge Perf. | 12-16-2003 06:11 PM |
Yeah I agree that this has been an awesome example of how the forums should work. No one here has started calling each other names or a B**** or anything like that. Joel asked a question and everyone has responded with their input in a reasonable manner. If some people would just realize that this is how it should work then we all could have a lot more fun and be more productive using this forum. I do believe very strongly in the points I have made about the legality of the UTEC but as has been stated further clarification will be needed. But there is definitely no reason to get bent out of shape over opinions seeing as how everyone usually has a different one. It is just a discussion and whether the rule changes or not won't hurt my feelings either way I just put in my opinion as Joel,Tom, KC and others did and though some of us feel differently about this we all remain civil to each other as there is no reason to fight about it. But heck that is also just my OPINION.
Kevin
Kevin
| KC | 12-16-2003 09:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Knowledge Perf.[/i]
[B] Yeah I agree that this has been an awesome example of how the forums should work. No one here has started calling each other names or a B**** or anything like that. Joel asked a question and everyone has responded with their input in a reasonable manner. If some people would just realize that this is how it should work then we all could have a lot more fun and be more productive using this forum. I do believe very strongly in the points I have made about the legality of the UTEC but as has been stated further clarification will be needed. But there is definitely no reason to get bent out of shape over opinions seeing as how everyone usually has a different one. It is just a discussion and whether the rule changes or not won't hurt my feelings either way I just put in my opinion as Joel,Tom, KC and others did and though some of us feel differently about this we all remain civil to each other as there is no reason to fight about it. But heck that is also just my OPINION.
Kevin [/B][/QUOTE]
[Yosemite Sam]Oh shaddup you long winded galoot![/Yosemite Sam]
:D
[B] Yeah I agree that this has been an awesome example of how the forums should work. No one here has started calling each other names or a B**** or anything like that. Joel asked a question and everyone has responded with their input in a reasonable manner. If some people would just realize that this is how it should work then we all could have a lot more fun and be more productive using this forum. I do believe very strongly in the points I have made about the legality of the UTEC but as has been stated further clarification will be needed. But there is definitely no reason to get bent out of shape over opinions seeing as how everyone usually has a different one. It is just a discussion and whether the rule changes or not won't hurt my feelings either way I just put in my opinion as Joel,Tom, KC and others did and though some of us feel differently about this we all remain civil to each other as there is no reason to fight about it. But heck that is also just my OPINION.
Kevin [/B][/QUOTE]
[Yosemite Sam]Oh shaddup you long winded galoot![/Yosemite Sam]
:D
| MNbiker | 12-17-2003 12:03 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Knowledge Perf. [/i]
[B]Yeah I agree that this has been an awesome example of how the forums should work. No one here has started calling each other names or a B**** or anything like that.[/QUOTE]
Tom's a Bastard!:devil:
(sorry, couldn't resist....) :p
[B]Yeah I agree that this has been an awesome example of how the forums should work. No one here has started calling each other names or a B**** or anything like that.[/QUOTE]
Tom's a Bastard!:devil:
(sorry, couldn't resist....) :p
| trhoppe | 12-17-2003 10:23 AM |
Wait a sec! Thats my line :)
KC is a bastard, not me...... :furious:
KC is a bastard, not me...... :furious:
| Davenow | 12-17-2003 10:42 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AUTOwrXER [/i]
[B]Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry if it seemed like I was crapping on you. I really didnt mean it that way.
I still wanna know what crash bolts are:confused:
[B]Thanks for your opinion. I was actually enjoying the discussion. [/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry if it seemed like I was crapping on you. I really didnt mean it that way.
I still wanna know what crash bolts are:confused:
| trhoppe | 12-17-2003 10:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow[/i]
[B]
I still wanna know what crash bolts are:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Look like 3 posts up....
"crash bolts are bolts like the front "camber" bolts on the wrx that allow for more adjustability. They are called "crash bolts" because many service manuals call for the use of these bolts to bring a car back into alignment spec after an accident or when a car can't be aligned to factory spec. Some people in stock classes use the factory service manual to allow them to use these bolts to acheive a more perfect autox alignment than the factory part allows." posted by AWMIII
-Tom
[B]
I still wanna know what crash bolts are:confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Look like 3 posts up....
"crash bolts are bolts like the front "camber" bolts on the wrx that allow for more adjustability. They are called "crash bolts" because many service manuals call for the use of these bolts to bring a car back into alignment spec after an accident or when a car can't be aligned to factory spec. Some people in stock classes use the factory service manual to allow them to use these bolts to acheive a more perfect autox alignment than the factory part allows." posted by AWMIII
-Tom
| Davenow | 12-17-2003 11:01 AM |
AHHHH ok now its all coming back to me. I knew that once upon a time...:o :lol:
Thanks
Thanks
| AUTOwrXER | 12-18-2003 10:28 AM |
Just to keep everyone updated, my letter has been forwarded by one SEB member (after his review) to the rest of the crew for comment. The more I think about this, the more I wonder what other cars are using currently. Obviously, this affects all cars in street touring, not just stx. The other thing that I have given some thought to is the feedback from an ECU to a piggyback computer. I think even the Unichip does this, so clearly there should be some rewording to indicate the legality of closed loop control systems.
In any event, thanks to everyone for their input here. It's a good conversation, and I'd like to hear any comments about solutions in other ST* cars. I'm particularly curious about the systems for the Mini Cooper S as boost is not a concern there at all (you would need to change the pully to effect it)
Joel
In any event, thanks to everyone for their input here. It's a good conversation, and I'd like to hear any comments about solutions in other ST* cars. I'm particularly curious about the systems for the Mini Cooper S as boost is not a concern there at all (you would need to change the pully to effect it)
Joel
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