| TubeDriver | 12-15-2005 12:27 PM |
Will the STI win AS at the National level?
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Some of the recent threads ("06 SOLO II rules book" and the "whatever happened to stock classes?") got me thinking. Any thoughts on the STIs ability to win AS at the National level? In general, I would say that the STI is significantly faster than the S2000, braking ability is almost the same, corner entry is a bit slower but corner exit is probably better than the S2000. The STI does not handle transitions as well as the S2000. Still, the only major factor I can see holding it back is the STIs lack of front camber (<-1). Thoughts?
My interest is due to the fact that I will be driving an S2000 in SCCA AS next season (been generally limited to smaller, local clubs for the last few years), my wife has been competing for the last couple of years in STX with an WRX but may get an STI for next season and I have a friend who will be competing in AS with an 05 STI.
My interest is due to the fact that I will be driving an S2000 in SCCA AS next season (been generally limited to smaller, local clubs for the last few years), my wife has been competing for the last couple of years in STX with an WRX but may get an STI for next season and I have a friend who will be competing in AS with an 05 STI.
| ChrisDP | 12-15-2005 12:34 PM |
In stock trim I don't think it's nimble enough to keep up with the S2000, Porsche 911, C4 Vette etc. S2000 might not be as quick off a corner, but it'll wreck the STi in transitions. Have you done the typical Saini bar-and-alignment setup? Not sure what you need to make that work on the newer cars, but at least on the older S2000s it makes a world of improvement in making the car easier to drive fast.
| TubeDriver | 12-15-2005 12:44 PM |
Yea, I have the Comptech front bar, -2.5 rear, -1.5 front (I did skip the tiny bit of front toe out though). The newer AP2 seem to require the same setup as the older ones although I currently have my front bar set to soft/medium (which is still 200% stiffer than the OEM bar).
I agree that the S2000 will probably always be faster in a slalom but on the bigger, faster national level courses I wonder if the STI's speed advantage would compensate on the straights and out of corners?
I should add that my *guess* is that the STI will be faster after setup has been sorted out and drivers have a few season of experience (in the STI). I base this on my experience driving an STI (briefly) and seeing how well the STI (and EVOs) are starting to do at the local club level.
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]In stock trim I don't think it's nimble enough to keep up with the S2000, Porsche 911, C4 Vette etc. S2000 might not be as quick off a corner, but it'll wreck the STi in transitions. Have you done the typical Saini bar-and-alignment setup? Not sure what you need to make that work on the newer cars, but at least on the older S2000s it makes a world of improvement in making the car easier to drive fast.[/QUOTE]
I agree that the S2000 will probably always be faster in a slalom but on the bigger, faster national level courses I wonder if the STI's speed advantage would compensate on the straights and out of corners?
I should add that my *guess* is that the STI will be faster after setup has been sorted out and drivers have a few season of experience (in the STI). I base this on my experience driving an STI (briefly) and seeing how well the STI (and EVOs) are starting to do at the local club level.
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]In stock trim I don't think it's nimble enough to keep up with the S2000, Porsche 911, C4 Vette etc. S2000 might not be as quick off a corner, but it'll wreck the STi in transitions. Have you done the typical Saini bar-and-alignment setup? Not sure what you need to make that work on the newer cars, but at least on the older S2000s it makes a world of improvement in making the car easier to drive fast.[/QUOTE]
| ratt_finkel | 12-15-2005 12:57 PM |
I certainly think the car could trophy. I think it will take an 05 STi, 275' Kumho V710's a big front bar some $$$shocks and Mark Daddio. Maybe throw in a day of rain as well.
This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.
This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.
| Jaxx | 12-15-2005 12:58 PM |
might also consider the changes in the 06 sti .. its alot differnt than an 04 wonder how much the new center diff control is worth
| Draken | 12-15-2005 12:59 PM |
The thing is, "the bigger faster national courses" don't usualy require lots of horsepower. You get up to speed basically once, and maintain that higher national style speed throughout. Not many courses have 4 or 5 sections where you accelerate from 20mph to 60mph. Usualy you get up to 50mph, and keep between 40-60 for most of it. So no huge adavantage to a powerful car.
The only chance an STi has it at Pros, at places like Wendover where you have some fast section and a tight turn around. But then again, you usualy have lots of transitions on the long skinny lots. So basicaly, I agree with ChrisDasPooper on this one.
Chris H.
The only chance an STi has it at Pros, at places like Wendover where you have some fast section and a tight turn around. But then again, you usualy have lots of transitions on the long skinny lots. So basicaly, I agree with ChrisDasPooper on this one.
Chris H.
| rankink | 12-15-2005 01:00 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]I certainly think the car could trophy. I think it will take an 05 STi, 275' Kumho V710's a big front bar some $$$shocks and Mark Daddio. Maybe throw in a day of rain as well.
This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.[/QUOTE]
If only we had more shock options for the 05 & 06's. Other than throwing big money as you said towards them there is nothing for us on a tighter budget. I think it could trophy as well.
This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.[/QUOTE]
If only we had more shock options for the 05 & 06's. Other than throwing big money as you said towards them there is nothing for us on a tighter budget. I think it could trophy as well.
| TubeDriver | 12-15-2005 01:07 PM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]This years north course minus the 87 cone slalom at the start would be helpful as well.[/QUOTE]
87 cone slalom = S2000 driver's wet dream :lol:
87 cone slalom = S2000 driver's wet dream :lol:
| grippgoat | 12-15-2005 04:08 PM |
What about the Ohlins WR1 struts?
06 STIs are like another 50 pounds heavier than 05s, according to carpoint specs. No idea how they did that.
Also, back when a friend of mine was blinging out his Neon for DS (I have since called him $5k shocks, since he put JRZs in), he was able to legally use "crash bolts" to get more negative camber out of the car. The crash bolt was basically a smaller diameter bolt intended to allow more slop to bring a car's alignment back into spec after reparing crash damage. Given the size of the STI's camber bolt, if a smaller crash bolt could be used in its place, you should be able to get quite a bit more camber out of it.
I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.
-Mike
06 STIs are like another 50 pounds heavier than 05s, according to carpoint specs. No idea how they did that.
Also, back when a friend of mine was blinging out his Neon for DS (I have since called him $5k shocks, since he put JRZs in), he was able to legally use "crash bolts" to get more negative camber out of the car. The crash bolt was basically a smaller diameter bolt intended to allow more slop to bring a car's alignment back into spec after reparing crash damage. Given the size of the STI's camber bolt, if a smaller crash bolt could be used in its place, you should be able to get quite a bit more camber out of it.
I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.
-Mike
| Draken | 12-15-2005 04:19 PM |
You must be speaking of Micheal Lee. Black neon, ran in DS/GS, when i was running my 2.5RS iin GS. he and Jeff Winchel drove it in DS, then Jerald Lowe and Stephen Uei drove it in GS.
i have nothing of use to add...just brought up memories. aaaahhhhh.
chris h.
i have nothing of use to add...just brought up memories. aaaahhhhh.
chris h.
| ratt_finkel | 12-15-2005 04:36 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat] The crash bolt was basically a smaller diameter bolt intended to allow more slop to bring a car's alignment back into spec after reparing crash damage. Given the size of the STI's camber bolt, if a smaller crash bolt could be used in its place, you should be able to get quite a bit more camber out of it.
I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Unfortunnately, not all cars are allowed to run crash bolts, including subarus. :(
I'd love to see someone with high-dollar nitrogen-preloaded struts in an STI.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Unfortunnately, not all cars are allowed to run crash bolts, including subarus. :(
| 10th Warrior | 12-15-2005 04:56 PM |
[quote] he and **** ******* drove it in DS[/quote]
we do not speak he who we do not mention's name on this board! 100 lashings for your insolence, rally car driver!
we do not speak he who we do not mention's name on this board! 100 lashings for your insolence, rally car driver!
| rankink | 12-15-2005 05:40 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]What about the Ohlins WR1 struts?[/QUOTE]
I believe these are around $2000 for the set and I am not sure if they have them for 05's either. Either way I would much rather have the single adjustable koni inserts for much less.
I believe these are around $2000 for the set and I am not sure if they have them for 05's either. Either way I would much rather have the single adjustable koni inserts for much less.
| TubeDriver | 12-15-2005 07:11 PM |
Well, some interesting points. Perhaps the STI might be more competitive at smaller, local events due to the greater speed variations (squirt down short straight, decreasing radius turn followed by another 1-2 gear squirt back kind of thing)? Both the EVOs and the STIs are putting down pretty respectable times in the events I attend.
| trhoppe | 12-15-2005 07:13 PM |
I still think ChrisIDP when I see his username :lol: :lol:
I agree with what him and stickboy said. National courses are momentum maintenance and the S2K will win there. I do think the STi has what it takes to trophy and I have a good feeling someone will do that if they make it to nationals, but I don't think they have what it takes to win, even with daddio behind the wheel.
-Tom
I agree with what him and stickboy said. National courses are momentum maintenance and the S2K will win there. I do think the STi has what it takes to trophy and I have a good feeling someone will do that if they make it to nationals, but I don't think they have what it takes to win, even with daddio behind the wheel.
-Tom
| nlzmo400r | 12-15-2005 07:43 PM |
The stock STi suspension allows for a pretty good bit of adjustment, I think by getting a special alignment should easily make the car much more nimble. Also, as far as getting more neg.camber- could you use escentric bolts in place of the OEM shock mount bolts? This would easily allow for another .75^ of negative camber.
| trhoppe | 12-15-2005 08:11 PM |
[QUOTE=nlzmo400r]The stock STi suspension allows for a pretty good bit of adjustment, I think by getting a special alignment should easily make the car much more nimble. Also, as far as getting more neg.camber- could you use escentric bolts in place of the OEM shock mount bolts? This would easily allow for another .75^ of negative camber.[/QUOTE]
Nope, OEM only. With pushing and pulling -1.5 to -1.8 is possible on the 05s. Thats with a lot of pulling though ;)
-Tom
Nope, OEM only. With pushing and pulling -1.5 to -1.8 is possible on the 05s. Thats with a lot of pulling though ;)
-Tom
| adhowe70 | 12-15-2005 08:33 PM |
I've driven both cars... the STi will never consistently out run the S2000, 911, C4 Vette at a national level autocross. ProSolo's excluded. The S2000 beats the STi through sweepers AND slaloms.
| WRX_Mundi | 12-15-2005 09:11 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]Well, some interesting points. Perhaps the STI might be more competitive at smaller, local events due to the greater speed variations (squirt down short straight, decreasing radius turn followed by another 1-2 gear squirt back kind of thing)? Both the EVOs and the STIs are putting down pretty respectable times in the events I attend.[/QUOTE]I'm guessing that lousy surfaces give a benefit here as the STi can get some more traction. Now for some real speculation, I think perhaps driving an S2000 close to it's potential is harder than doing so with an STi. Not an issue at Nationals with great drivers in all the cars at the top, but something to consider for local stuff. Also your point is valid that constant 55->20->55 stuff will be good for the STi.
| Scoobie Doogie | 12-15-2005 11:22 PM |
NO the STi will not likely win AS as long as the S2000 is in the same class, same with the C4 vette. Pro-solo it has a chance. The STi is not easier to drive to the limit. It is easier to get to 95% but that last 5% takes a great driver, the same type of skilled driver that it takes to get 100% out of the S2k.
| adhowe70 | 12-15-2005 11:46 PM |
Amen. The STi does make the average driver look above average. The S2000 makes the average driver look like a chump. IMO, its harder to get 100% out of the STi than it is the S2000.
| bouchon | 12-16-2005 12:11 AM |
Interesting thread. Good points indeed. I would tend to second those analysis but I must stay optimistic. We'll see next year if STIs can change the S2000's supremacy... :devil:
| Scoobie Doogie | 12-16-2005 12:36 AM |
[QUOTE=bouchon]Interesting thread. Good points indeed. I would tend to second those analysis but I must stay optimistic. We'll see next year if STIs can't change the S2000's supremacy... :devil:[/QUOTE]
Well if you are running WDCR events next year I'll look forward to watching you do your best. I'm driving an STi in STU next year and will work to de-throne Mike Neary from his STU champioship.
Dave
Well if you are running WDCR events next year I'll look forward to watching you do your best. I'm driving an STi in STU next year and will work to de-throne Mike Neary from his STU champioship.
Dave
| AndrewSS | 12-16-2005 02:58 AM |
i run my sti in AS locally, i am a noobie driver and there is no doubt I am holding my car back haha, but a good driver (fun runs!) got in my sti and on his 2nd run matched the top s2k run for that day. That was early on in the season. As the season progressed I got better, at the very last event AS was scheduled to run first heat so the course was kinda gritty and pretty cold (ambient temp like high 40's low 50's I think) so I think those variables may have helped me get a bit of an advantage since I think i had more grip for power lay down. Although the course was a fast and stay fast layout so i dont think that helped. Anyway I got the win in AS that day, I was real happy, I hope next season I can continue to progress (I still suck).
Overall locally like everyone said the STi can do very well, i got my car a big FSB and maxed front camber just still on street tires (figure I can learn better on them) and it is really fun, I think having the s2k's to base my progress on is cool.
Overall locally like everyone said the STi can do very well, i got my car a big FSB and maxed front camber just still on street tires (figure I can learn better on them) and it is really fun, I think having the s2k's to base my progress on is cool.
| Scoobie Doogie | 12-16-2005 08:26 AM |
Cool Andrew. Try to get to a bigger event some time to see how you stand against the muckety-mucks. I did it a couple of years ago and got my butt kicked. It helped me to become a better driver eventually. I'm at the point where I am a fast regional driver and can hang at at tour event but would still get my butt handed to me at Nationals. Keep it up brother! Try out some r-compounds on that puppy too if you can.
Dave
Dave
| rankink | 12-16-2005 09:08 AM |
What does everyone think about the surface change at nationals for 2006? Going from concrete to ashphalt. Not that it would give the AWD cars enough advantage to overtake the fastest S2K's, but maybe get them closer with all things equal.
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 09:08 AM |
No chance.
| rankink | 12-16-2005 09:14 AM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]No chance.[/QUOTE]
I did not say it would give them the advantage to win, just that AWD's might do better overall because of the surface.
I did not say it would give them the advantage to win, just that AWD's might do better overall because of the surface.
| jcroy66 | 12-16-2005 09:15 AM |
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that class dynamics may vary next year (at least somewhat) with Nationals being on asphalt instead of concrete. I still don't think it'll be enough for the STi to take AS, but it may encourage more top drivers to at least consider the STi or Evo in AS. Has anyone made a serious National attempt at AS in an STi other than Larry Fine in 2004?
Edit: looks like I was too slow!
Edit: looks like I was too slow!
| omahasubaru | 12-16-2005 09:24 AM |
[QUOTE=rankink]I did not say it would give them the advantage to win, just that AWD's might do better overall because of the surface.[/QUOTE]
Sorry. My response was to the initial question, not yours specifically.
STi a chance in AS = No
Will the surface change help = Yes
This is of course speaking of the dry. I feel this way about any current eligable stock class subaru.
However if it is a wet nationals. Then I think the STi/EVO has a chance in AS and the 2.5 RS has a chance in GS. I don't think the WRX/LGT/FXT etc. DS'ers have a chance even in the wet though.
Just my $0.02
Sorry. My response was to the initial question, not yours specifically.
STi a chance in AS = No
Will the surface change help = Yes
This is of course speaking of the dry. I feel this way about any current eligable stock class subaru.
However if it is a wet nationals. Then I think the STi/EVO has a chance in AS and the 2.5 RS has a chance in GS. I don't think the WRX/LGT/FXT etc. DS'ers have a chance even in the wet though.
Just my $0.02
| rankink | 12-16-2005 09:25 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]One thing I haven't seen mentioned is that class dynamics may vary next year (at least somewhat) with Nationals being on asphalt instead of concrete. I still don't think it'll be enough for the STi to take AS, but it may encourage more top drivers to at least consider the STi or Evo in AS. Has anyone made a serious National attempt at AS in an STi other than Larry Fine in 2004?
Edit: looks like I was too slow![/QUOTE]
The only person that was at nationals in 05 in a STi was Russ Clark, and he was mid-pack I believe. Do not know how prepped he was though. If all goes as planned I will be at nationals in my STi for AS fully prepped. But I am no where near a top driver. :)
Edit: looks like I was too slow![/QUOTE]
The only person that was at nationals in 05 in a STi was Russ Clark, and he was mid-pack I believe. Do not know how prepped he was though. If all goes as planned I will be at nationals in my STi for AS fully prepped. But I am no where near a top driver. :)
| rankink | 12-16-2005 09:26 AM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]Sorry. My response was to the initial question, not yours specifically.
STi a chance in AS = No
Will the surface change help = Yes[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that is what I was thinking too as the answer to my question. No harm, no foul.
STi a chance in AS = No
Will the surface change help = Yes[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that is what I was thinking too as the answer to my question. No harm, no foul.
| Scooby South | 12-16-2005 10:02 AM |
[QUOTE=rankink]The only person that was at nationals in 05 in a STi was Russ Clark, and he was mid-pack I believe. Do not know how prepped he was though. If all goes as planned I will be at nationals in my STi for AS fully prepped. But I am no where near a top driver. :)[/QUOTE]
I can give you what I know about Russ's setup....
Koni dual adjustables
Joel Big Front Bar
245 710's
Thats what I know...
Bill
I can give you what I know about Russ's setup....
Koni dual adjustables
Joel Big Front Bar
245 710's
Thats what I know...
Bill
| trhoppe | 12-16-2005 10:04 AM |
245s? Whose idea was that?
-Tom
-Tom
| Scooby South | 12-16-2005 10:06 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]245s? Whose idea was that?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
his I believe...
Bill
-Tom[/QUOTE]
his I believe...
Bill
| rankink | 12-16-2005 10:06 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South]I can give you what I know about Russ's setup....
Koni dual adjustables
Joel Big Front Bar
245 710's
Thats what I know...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Thanks Bill. How have you been? I would be happy with koni single adjustables now. Been waiting on a fax from a certain someone for a while now... :p
Kolin
Koni dual adjustables
Joel Big Front Bar
245 710's
Thats what I know...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Thanks Bill. How have you been? I would be happy with koni single adjustables now. Been waiting on a fax from a certain someone for a while now... :p
Kolin
| Scooby South | 12-16-2005 10:12 AM |
[QUOTE=rankink]Thanks Bill. How have you been? I would be happy with koni single adjustables now. Been waiting on a fax from a certain someone for a while now... :p
Kolin[/QUOTE]
Doing OK....Still at home recovering...I got clearance yesterday to drive...
so I am trying to catch up with Xmas shopping...I won't be back at work til the first of the year...:)....fax??? PM me what I need to do...
Bill
Kolin[/QUOTE]
Doing OK....Still at home recovering...I got clearance yesterday to drive...
so I am trying to catch up with Xmas shopping...I won't be back at work til the first of the year...:)....fax??? PM me what I need to do...
Bill
| rankink | 12-16-2005 10:21 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South]Doing OK....Still at home recovering...I got clearance yesterday to drive...
so I am trying to catch up with Xmas shopping...I won't be back at work til the first of the year...:)....fax??? PM me what I need to do...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear it and look forward to seeing you at the Ft. Myers tour event. In regard to the fax I was referring to Mr. Hoppe.
so I am trying to catch up with Xmas shopping...I won't be back at work til the first of the year...:)....fax??? PM me what I need to do...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear it and look forward to seeing you at the Ft. Myers tour event. In regard to the fax I was referring to Mr. Hoppe.
| TubeDriver | 12-16-2005 10:44 AM |
Well, depending on how the season goes, Bouchon will be at Nationals in AS with his 05 STI and I will be there as well in my Honda.
We can't really know how STIs will do since not many people have committed and preped an STI for this class. At the local SCCA DC area events, an STI cam in second pretty often behind the champ in an S2000.
As for driving skill and cars, I have owned two WRXs (and 2 S2000s) and the WRXs are a piece of cake to drive at 95% of their limit, while it is difficult to get 75% out of the S2000. Just watch all the noobs in S2000 spinning (and getting really crappy times) while I don't think I have seen an WRX/STI spin in the last 25 events are so (although when they do it pretty fun to watch). But it does take an excellent driver to get close to 100% of ANY cars potential.
We can't really know how STIs will do since not many people have committed and preped an STI for this class. At the local SCCA DC area events, an STI cam in second pretty often behind the champ in an S2000.
As for driving skill and cars, I have owned two WRXs (and 2 S2000s) and the WRXs are a piece of cake to drive at 95% of their limit, while it is difficult to get 75% out of the S2000. Just watch all the noobs in S2000 spinning (and getting really crappy times) while I don't think I have seen an WRX/STI spin in the last 25 events are so (although when they do it pretty fun to watch). But it does take an excellent driver to get close to 100% of ANY cars potential.
| WRX_Mundi | 12-16-2005 11:39 AM |
That's exactly what I meant in my comment. An average or "pretty good" local-level driver can look like a hero in the STi against other similar drivers. The S2000 is not as easy to get up to it's potential. After one has crossed the hump of at least getting past 90%, I don't know how hard they are to go further with, but I have heard the STi isn't as easy to get the last 5% from as, say, a Corvette.
None of this applies to the original question, as anyone potentially winning AS at Nationals is well beyond merely "good." One should assume that the competition is going to extract most of the potential regardless of how hard or expensive it is.
With some luck I'll be finding out just how far below 100% I am at Nationals in BSP. ;) If nothing else I'll let Navid kick my butt at a Pro again.
None of this applies to the original question, as anyone potentially winning AS at Nationals is well beyond merely "good." One should assume that the competition is going to extract most of the potential regardless of how hard or expensive it is.
With some luck I'll be finding out just how far below 100% I am at Nationals in BSP. ;) If nothing else I'll let Navid kick my butt at a Pro again.
| TubeDriver | 12-16-2005 01:52 PM |
:lol: :lol: Me too. If I ain't winning, I would rather be losing in BSP than losing in AS. :alien:
[QUOTE=WRX_Mundi]
With some luck I'll be finding out just how far below 100% I am at Nationals in BSP. ;) If nothing else I'll let Navid kick my butt at a Pro again.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=WRX_Mundi]
With some luck I'll be finding out just how far below 100% I am at Nationals in BSP. ;) If nothing else I'll let Navid kick my butt at a Pro again.[/QUOTE]
| AUTOwrXER | 12-16-2005 02:45 PM |
STi in AS? No way.
I can think of 5 better cars for the class (Porsche 911, Porsche Boxster S, S2000, Evo RS, Corvette). Even if it rained I'd rather be in the Evo RS. I don't think the STi is the car for the class under any circumstances.
I can think of 5 better cars for the class (Porsche 911, Porsche Boxster S, S2000, Evo RS, Corvette). Even if it rained I'd rather be in the Evo RS. I don't think the STi is the car for the class under any circumstances.
| silver arrow | 01-28-2006 10:25 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]Amen. The STi does make the average driver look above average. The S2000 makes the average driver look like a chump. IMO, its harder to get 100% out of the STi than it is the S2000.[/QUOTE]
That's true, I took my 05 with strano bar, stock alignment (didn't have time to beat on the alignment) and RE070's and beat the crap out of an S2000 with R comps. It was both of our first autox. I also beat 90% of the SM and STU STi's too. Mostly inexperience guys too. Just shows how good the car is stock. BTW a completely stock 06 STI with R comps beat all the SM guys except a well prepped and trailered EVO. The EVO beat him by a couple of tens.
That's true, I took my 05 with strano bar, stock alignment (didn't have time to beat on the alignment) and RE070's and beat the crap out of an S2000 with R comps. It was both of our first autox. I also beat 90% of the SM and STU STi's too. Mostly inexperience guys too. Just shows how good the car is stock. BTW a completely stock 06 STI with R comps beat all the SM guys except a well prepped and trailered EVO. The EVO beat him by a couple of tens.
| Virgil | 02-03-2006 08:16 PM |
Dang looks like I reached infamy. I'm Russ Clark. Just so you know I had the koni's the strano bar and 710's. It was my first time on the 710's lot of push going from the victos. I have since learned that I have to stiffen up the rear to get her to rotate. I also ran in standing water the first day. I didn't have rains so I ran G-force KDW's. I had a good showing being 2 seconds behind the top guys on hoosier wets. On rains I could have held close I think. The second day I had tons of push on the over-inflated 710's(never had time to test) and was a little thrown by the caverns they call expansion cracks. It literly would hopp through turns and bounce off the rev limiter as the tires went in the air. This was very distacting. Oh and I had only 2 events on the Koni's. Now with the setup better sorted, and it will not be my first Nationals this year I see a trophy as possible. A win would be pretty much a miracle. My $.02. Man I just feel warm and fuzzy that I was mentioned. I was hoping that no one noticed I was there with the embarrising perfomace but hey there is always next year.
P.S. Whats wrong with the 245's I'm on a budget and could spend money trying to get the 275's to fit. If you know how I will switch to them though.
P.S. Whats wrong with the 245's I'm on a budget and could spend money trying to get the 275's to fit. If you know how I will switch to them though.
| TubeDriver | 02-03-2006 10:56 PM |
I'm not 100% convinced that stuffing a 275 is really that much faster than a 255. I guess the increase in absolute traction compensates for lousy turn-in?
Sounds like you did not have much time to get settled with your setup (and wet weather makes things even more complicated) so I would think that you would do a lot better this season.
[QUOTE=Virgil]Dang looks like I reached infamy. I'm Russ Clark. Just so you know I had the koni's the strano bar and 710's. It was my first time on the 710's lot of push going from the victos. I have since learned that I have to stiffen up the rear to get her to rotate. I also ran in standing water the first day. I didn't have rains so I ran G-force KDW's. I had a good showing being 2 seconds behind the top guys on hoosier wets. On rains I could have held close I think. The second day I had tons of push on the over-inflated 710's(never had time to test) and was a little thrown by the caverns they call expansion cracks. It literly would hopp through turns and bounce off the rev limiter as the tires went in the air. This was very distacting. Oh and I had only 2 events on the Koni's. Now with the setup better sorted, and it will not be my first Nationals this year I see a trophy as possible. A win would be pretty much a miracle. My $.02. Man I just feel warm and fuzzy that I was mentioned. I was hoping that no one noticed I was there with the embarrising perfomace but hey there is always next year.
P.S. Whats wrong with the 245's I'm on a budget and could spend money trying to get the 275's to fit. If you know how I will switch to them though.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you did not have much time to get settled with your setup (and wet weather makes things even more complicated) so I would think that you would do a lot better this season.
[QUOTE=Virgil]Dang looks like I reached infamy. I'm Russ Clark. Just so you know I had the koni's the strano bar and 710's. It was my first time on the 710's lot of push going from the victos. I have since learned that I have to stiffen up the rear to get her to rotate. I also ran in standing water the first day. I didn't have rains so I ran G-force KDW's. I had a good showing being 2 seconds behind the top guys on hoosier wets. On rains I could have held close I think. The second day I had tons of push on the over-inflated 710's(never had time to test) and was a little thrown by the caverns they call expansion cracks. It literly would hopp through turns and bounce off the rev limiter as the tires went in the air. This was very distacting. Oh and I had only 2 events on the Koni's. Now with the setup better sorted, and it will not be my first Nationals this year I see a trophy as possible. A win would be pretty much a miracle. My $.02. Man I just feel warm and fuzzy that I was mentioned. I was hoping that no one noticed I was there with the embarrising perfomace but hey there is always next year.
P.S. Whats wrong with the 245's I'm on a budget and could spend money trying to get the 275's to fit. If you know how I will switch to them though.[/QUOTE]
| silver arrow | 02-04-2006 12:24 PM |
[QUOTE=rankink]The only person that was at nationals in 05 in a STi was Russ Clark, and he was mid-pack I believe. Do not know how prepped he was though. If all goes as planned I will be at nationals in my STi for AS fully prepped. But I am no where near a top driver. :)[/QUOTE]
It's amazing that this is what SCCA has come to. Many moons ago stock meant stock. It's ridiculous that you have to "prepare" your stock car. STU seems to be the more competitive class for the STi and that's where I'm going.
It's amazing that this is what SCCA has come to. Many moons ago stock meant stock. It's ridiculous that you have to "prepare" your stock car. STU seems to be the more competitive class for the STi and that's where I'm going.
| adhowe70 | 02-04-2006 12:45 PM |
[QUOTE=silver arrow]It's amazing that this is what SCCA has come to. Many moons ago stock meant stock. It's ridiculous that you have to "prepare" your stock car.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: And how long ago was that? I bet if you pulled out a 1990 rule book you wouldn't find any fewer allowed modifications. The current stock class allowances date back *many* years. If anything, the rules have become tighter (fewer allowances) to close the loopholes of the old rulesets.
There is only one rule that is odd: the front sway bar. Other than that, stock IS stock with reasonable allowances for replacement parts. Everything else is people taking full use of the replacement parts allowances.
Competition has raised the level of preparation, not rules changes.
:rolleyes: And how long ago was that? I bet if you pulled out a 1990 rule book you wouldn't find any fewer allowed modifications. The current stock class allowances date back *many* years. If anything, the rules have become tighter (fewer allowances) to close the loopholes of the old rulesets.
There is only one rule that is odd: the front sway bar. Other than that, stock IS stock with reasonable allowances for replacement parts. Everything else is people taking full use of the replacement parts allowances.
Competition has raised the level of preparation, not rules changes.
| silver arrow | 02-04-2006 02:03 PM |
Sorry, I was speaking of late 70's - early 80's. :rolleyes: Point still stands, STU is a better home for the STi to be competitive. :)
| adhowe70 | 02-04-2006 09:14 PM |
I'm sorry if I came across harshly on that one. Its a sore spot with me. A lot of people complain about the cost of prepping a car for stock class.
Many of the allowances we have were originally created to make it cheaper (not more expensive). Like allowing a set of Sears' special shocks instead of forcing someone to go back to the dealer to buy new OEM shocks. That has grown to allowing custom valved double adjustable shocks... but the rule never prohibited those. People just weren't willing to buy them when the rule was written. Now people are.
But point taken... STU is waaaay better for the STi. It's not cheaper to prep, but it is more competitive when fully prepped.
Many of the allowances we have were originally created to make it cheaper (not more expensive). Like allowing a set of Sears' special shocks instead of forcing someone to go back to the dealer to buy new OEM shocks. That has grown to allowing custom valved double adjustable shocks... but the rule never prohibited those. People just weren't willing to buy them when the rule was written. Now people are.
But point taken... STU is waaaay better for the STi. It's not cheaper to prep, but it is more competitive when fully prepped.
| ace996 | 02-05-2006 02:09 AM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]I'm sorry if I came across harshly on that one. Its a sore spot with me. A lot of people complain about the cost of prepping a car for stock class.
Many of the allowances we have were originally created to make it cheaper (not more expensive). Like allowing a set of Sears' special shocks instead of forcing someone to go back to the dealer to buy new OEM shocks. That has grown to allowing custom valved double adjustable shocks... but the rule never prohibited those. People just weren't willing to buy them when the rule was written. Now people are.
[/QUOTE]
I think that's the point. Having to drop thousands on double-adjustables or custom valved shocks is not STOCK. And the last time I went to a dealer, no cars came with R-compounds...
-ace
Many of the allowances we have were originally created to make it cheaper (not more expensive). Like allowing a set of Sears' special shocks instead of forcing someone to go back to the dealer to buy new OEM shocks. That has grown to allowing custom valved double adjustable shocks... but the rule never prohibited those. People just weren't willing to buy them when the rule was written. Now people are.
[/QUOTE]
I think that's the point. Having to drop thousands on double-adjustables or custom valved shocks is not STOCK. And the last time I went to a dealer, no cars came with R-compounds...
-ace
| adhowe70 | 02-05-2006 10:48 AM |
OK, so you don't allow adjustable shocks. Someone will have 6 sets of custom valved non-adjustable shocks. One set for every site he races at. The only people that can win at Nationals are the locals and people who make the trip to Topeka early in the year to dial their cars in. The cost is higher than the $4000 set of DA shocks.
Or you require everyone to go back to the dealer and get new OEM shocks when their factory ones wear out. And no car older than 10 years old is eligible for stock class (manufacturers are not required to stock parts for cars over 10 years old.)
As for R-compounds, they're no more expensive than the top street tires. And the top street tires get shaved to 6/32nds or so. What's the difference? Or require OEM tires... and the cars that come with the best OEM tires will win. And I believe the Lotus Elise *does* come fitted with the Yoko A048... an R compound.
When racing (any kind of racing), "stock" is only a name. Remember that.
Or you require everyone to go back to the dealer and get new OEM shocks when their factory ones wear out. And no car older than 10 years old is eligible for stock class (manufacturers are not required to stock parts for cars over 10 years old.)
As for R-compounds, they're no more expensive than the top street tires. And the top street tires get shaved to 6/32nds or so. What's the difference? Or require OEM tires... and the cars that come with the best OEM tires will win. And I believe the Lotus Elise *does* come fitted with the Yoko A048... an R compound.
When racing (any kind of racing), "stock" is only a name. Remember that.
| silver arrow | 02-05-2006 12:09 PM |
[QUOTE=adhowe70]OK, so you don't allow adjustable shocks. Someone will have 6 sets of custom valved non-adjustable shocks. One set for every site he races at. The only people that can win at Nationals are the locals and people who make the trip to Topeka early in the year to dial their cars in. The cost is higher than the $4000 set of DA shocks.
Or you require everyone to go back to the dealer and get new OEM shocks when their factory ones wear out. And no car older than 10 years old is eligible for stock class (manufacturers are not required to stock parts for cars over 10 years old.)
As for R-compounds, they're no more expensive than the top street tires. And the top street tires get shaved to 6/32nds or so. What's the difference? Or require OEM tires... and the cars that come with the best OEM tires will win. And I believe the Lotus Elise *does* come fitted with the Yoko A048... an R compound.
When racing (any kind of racing), "stock" is only a name. Remember that.[/QUOTE]
Point well taken. We all realize that we don't live in a perfect world and fond memories are not always as accurate as we would like. But back on topic, A stock is not a great home for the STi, though at a local level it maybe fine.
Or you require everyone to go back to the dealer and get new OEM shocks when their factory ones wear out. And no car older than 10 years old is eligible for stock class (manufacturers are not required to stock parts for cars over 10 years old.)
As for R-compounds, they're no more expensive than the top street tires. And the top street tires get shaved to 6/32nds or so. What's the difference? Or require OEM tires... and the cars that come with the best OEM tires will win. And I believe the Lotus Elise *does* come fitted with the Yoko A048... an R compound.
When racing (any kind of racing), "stock" is only a name. Remember that.[/QUOTE]
Point well taken. We all realize that we don't live in a perfect world and fond memories are not always as accurate as we would like. But back on topic, A stock is not a great home for the STi, though at a local level it maybe fine.
| rankink | 02-05-2006 02:55 PM |
[QUOTE=TubeDriver]I'm not 100% convinced that stuffing a 275 is really that much faster than a 255. I guess the increase in absolute traction compensates for lousy turn-in?
Sounds like you did not have much time to get settled with your setup (and wet weather makes things even more complicated) so I would think that you would do a lot better this season.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that there are no v710's in 255, just 245/45, which I ran before putting the 275 v710's on. The performance difference is very great and well worth it.
Sounds like you did not have much time to get settled with your setup (and wet weather makes things even more complicated) so I would think that you would do a lot better this season.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that there are no v710's in 255, just 245/45, which I ran before putting the 275 v710's on. The performance difference is very great and well worth it.
| Virgil | 02-06-2006 05:33 PM |
How did you get the 275's to fit?
| trhoppe | 02-06-2006 05:49 PM |
On the 05 they fit w/o any problems on a 48 offset.
-Tom
-Tom
| ChrisDP | 02-06-2006 05:58 PM |
I recommend you supply your tire mounting technician with at least a 6 pack of beer that doesn't totally suck for every time he mounts a set of 275 R-comps on stock 8" wheels for you. I'm thinking Newcastle at a minimum... :lol:
| rankink | 02-06-2006 08:05 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]I recommend you supply your tire mounting technician with at least a 6 pack of beer that doesn't totally suck for every time he mounts a set of 275 R-comps on stock 8" wheels for you. I'm thinking Newcastle at a minimum... :lol:[/QUOTE]
Actually, they are not hard at all really and I know cause I did them myself. Its when you get to 18 inch wheels and 35 or less series tires that it becomes a major pain.
Actually, they are not hard at all really and I know cause I did them myself. Its when you get to 18 inch wheels and 35 or less series tires that it becomes a major pain.
| rankink | 02-06-2006 08:06 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]On the 05 they fit w/o any problems on a 48 offset.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Yep, no rubbing on the strut front and back. This is on a 05 though.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Yep, no rubbing on the strut front and back. This is on a 05 though.
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