| Blindeye_03 | 07-13-2002 10:10 AM |
2.5RS to STX.
I hope I read this wrong. I just got my Sportscar mag yesterday and just reading it, says the following:
"If STX reaches National status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD N/A vehicles, and all others (AWD, turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5RS would remain viable cars for STX."
-Pg F-187 August 2002 Sportscar.
You have got to be kidding me!:mad: I get times a whole lot slower than wrxs.
I hope I didnt read this right...
-justin
"If STX reaches National status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD N/A vehicles, and all others (AWD, turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5RS would remain viable cars for STX."
-Pg F-187 August 2002 Sportscar.
You have got to be kidding me!:mad: I get times a whole lot slower than wrxs.
I hope I didnt read this right...
-justin
| Blindeye_03 | 07-13-2002 10:51 AM |
ok I found out more here:
[url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000317.html[/url]
-justin
[url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000317.html[/url]
-justin
| Willman67 | 07-13-2002 01:42 PM |
Are you kidding?
Actually, the WRX will have significant challenges keeping up with the 2.5 RS if they join STX. STX is still a class that emphasizes optimum handling over brute HP. The 2.5 RS is still significantly lighter and has plenty of low end torque which is critical for auto-x. You can improve the low end torque in a WRX with a lot of work and the handling also. I have yet to see a WRX without boost mods beat an RS 2.5 with equivalent suspension setup at an auto-x event (also assuming two good auto-x drivers).
I would imagine that the honda/acura drivers are in heaven over this proposed class change.
Wm
I would imagine that the honda/acura drivers are in heaven over this proposed class change.
Wm
| Kostamojen | 07-14-2002 04:45 AM |
Ya, and this puts my 110hp BEAST against all those WRX's...
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice...
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice...
| XT6Wagon | 07-14-2002 09:31 AM |
Sorry, you get a WRX sedan done to the limit of STX rules with a top flight driver and it will MOP the floor with the old RS. Its going to be a hell of alot more powerful, and the much much stiffer body will allow it to use alot more of the suspension and tires. Did I forget that the extra wieght is also countered by more brakes?
But its obvious that a bunch of the Honda "I'm a ricer, but Its not cool to admit it anymore" crowd got thier panties in a bunch about the 2.5RS and owners who bothered to put the real **** (40mm DMS or better) on there instead of some POS $400 coil overs with junk struts.
But its obvious that a bunch of the Honda "I'm a ricer, but Its not cool to admit it anymore" crowd got thier panties in a bunch about the 2.5RS and owners who bothered to put the real **** (40mm DMS or better) on there instead of some POS $400 coil overs with junk struts.
| ChrisW | 07-14-2002 10:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by XT6Wagon [/i]
[B]Sorry, you get a WRX sedan done to the limit of STX rules with a top flight driver and it will MOP the floor with the old RS. Its going to be a hell of alot more powerful, and the much much stiffer body will allow it to use alot more of the suspension and tires. Did I forget that the extra wieght is also countered by more brakes?
[/B][/QUOTE]
You get the WRX to the limit of the mods allowed in STX, and your either going to start blowing clutches (weak link in the drivetrain) or your going to split the upper IC hose (plastic crapola)
[B]Sorry, you get a WRX sedan done to the limit of STX rules with a top flight driver and it will MOP the floor with the old RS. Its going to be a hell of alot more powerful, and the much much stiffer body will allow it to use alot more of the suspension and tires. Did I forget that the extra wieght is also countered by more brakes?
[/B][/QUOTE]
You get the WRX to the limit of the mods allowed in STX, and your either going to start blowing clutches (weak link in the drivetrain) or your going to split the upper IC hose (plastic crapola)
| Jon Bogert | 07-14-2002 12:38 PM |
Isn't it completely ridiculous to group so many different cars into just two classes? In stock and street prepared they attempt to group cars of similar potential into narrowly defined classes, why is street touring any different?
Shouldn't there be as many street touring classes--for as many different levels of potential performance--as there are in stock?
Or maybe they should consolidate stock down into two classes and see how they like it? :lol:
Shouldn't there be as many street touring classes--for as many different levels of potential performance--as there are in stock?
Or maybe they should consolidate stock down into two classes and see how they like it? :lol:
| Orion | 07-14-2002 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jon Bogert [/i]
[B]Isn't it completely ridiculous to group so many different cars into just two classes? In stock and street prepared they attempt to group cars of similar potential into narrowly defined classes, why is street touring any different?
Shouldn't there be as many street touring classes--for as many different levels of potential performance--as there are in stock?
Or maybe they should consolidate stock down into two classes and see how they like it? :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. It will take them some time to realize how unfair 2 classes will be.
In Houston Region we have [b]7[/b] ST classes. Willman67 is in the top 2-3 of ST 'E' with all the Pony cars and I'm winning ST 'U' (unlimited). Unfortunately I have to take the TXS Stage 1, Samco hoses, and GFB Hybrid BOV to compete at Divs and Nats in STX.
2.5RS's run in ST 'C' and are also eligible for STU. The STC boys have no problems in STS for Divs and Nats and regularly outrun most of us WRX's regionally.
That has started to change and I'll probably pull away even further from them with a set of Leda's or JIC's. 6 months ago I would have said it was fine since the RS is a lighter package that handled better with cheaper mods (AGX's are very inexpensive compared to coilovers!!!). Now that I've learned the car and how to AutoX better I would say that the advantage will go to a properly prepped WRX.
[B]Isn't it completely ridiculous to group so many different cars into just two classes? In stock and street prepared they attempt to group cars of similar potential into narrowly defined classes, why is street touring any different?
Shouldn't there be as many street touring classes--for as many different levels of potential performance--as there are in stock?
Or maybe they should consolidate stock down into two classes and see how they like it? :lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. It will take them some time to realize how unfair 2 classes will be.
In Houston Region we have [b]7[/b] ST classes. Willman67 is in the top 2-3 of ST 'E' with all the Pony cars and I'm winning ST 'U' (unlimited). Unfortunately I have to take the TXS Stage 1, Samco hoses, and GFB Hybrid BOV to compete at Divs and Nats in STX.
2.5RS's run in ST 'C' and are also eligible for STU. The STC boys have no problems in STS for Divs and Nats and regularly outrun most of us WRX's regionally.
That has started to change and I'll probably pull away even further from them with a set of Leda's or JIC's. 6 months ago I would have said it was fine since the RS is a lighter package that handled better with cheaper mods (AGX's are very inexpensive compared to coilovers!!!). Now that I've learned the car and how to AutoX better I would say that the advantage will go to a properly prepped WRX.
| KC | 07-15-2002 08:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by XT6Wagon [/i]
Sorry, you get a WRX sedan done to the limit of STX rules with a top flight driver and it will MOP the floor with the old RS. Its going to be a hell of alot more powerful, and the much much stiffer body will allow it to use alot more of the suspension and tires. Did I forget that the extra wieght is also countered by more brakes?[/QUOTE]Not to pick on you... but:
Remove brakes out of the equasion. Why? If the RS moves to STX, then the 2.5RS can ALSO do anything to brakes because in STX, brakes are unlimited. So... light car + more stopping power + low torque = yikes! ;)
[QUOTE]But its obvious that a bunch of the Honda "I'm a ricer, but Its not cool to admit it anymore" crowd got thier panties in a bunch about the 2.5RS and owners who bothered to put the real **** (40mm DMS or better) on there instead of some POS $400 coil overs with junk struts.[/QUOTE]Please leave the trash talk stereotyping on the street where it belongs (Or in Off-Topic) :), not here. Unless you have evidence or proof that what you said is the case, what you just posted is hearsay and not called for, not to mention very unsportsmanlike.
About the suspension... Logically the Civic has a wider variety of suspensions to choose from due to vast quanitity of civics and people who like to hop them up in existance, and that the Civic's been on the road how many years????. Therefore the cost to build a competitive civic suspension is much cheaper than the 2.5RS/WRX. Heck, there were more WRX's sold this past year than all the 2.5RS's combined in their 4 years here in the US. So we (subaru's) have a limitied choice of suspensions to choose from, and those suspensions happen to be quite costly to the weekend competitior.
Just because we have to spend more to be competitive DOES NOT mean that our suspensions are superior than those that only pay $500 for their setup.
And on the 2.5RS vs WRX. You'll find that once the WRX is fully developed (and of next year probably) the difference of the two will come down to course design. As with any car, there are some courses that benefit one car over another. A shorter tighter course will benefit the 2800# 2.5 RS and the more open courses may benefit the WRX that doesn't have to keep shifting into 3rd like the 2.5RS.
And I agree, the WRX definitely needs low end torque to match the 2.5RS on tight cornering.
--KC
#66 STX [url]http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar[/url]
Sorry, you get a WRX sedan done to the limit of STX rules with a top flight driver and it will MOP the floor with the old RS. Its going to be a hell of alot more powerful, and the much much stiffer body will allow it to use alot more of the suspension and tires. Did I forget that the extra wieght is also countered by more brakes?[/QUOTE]Not to pick on you... but:
Remove brakes out of the equasion. Why? If the RS moves to STX, then the 2.5RS can ALSO do anything to brakes because in STX, brakes are unlimited. So... light car + more stopping power + low torque = yikes! ;)
[QUOTE]But its obvious that a bunch of the Honda "I'm a ricer, but Its not cool to admit it anymore" crowd got thier panties in a bunch about the 2.5RS and owners who bothered to put the real **** (40mm DMS or better) on there instead of some POS $400 coil overs with junk struts.[/QUOTE]Please leave the trash talk stereotyping on the street where it belongs (Or in Off-Topic) :), not here. Unless you have evidence or proof that what you said is the case, what you just posted is hearsay and not called for, not to mention very unsportsmanlike.
About the suspension... Logically the Civic has a wider variety of suspensions to choose from due to vast quanitity of civics and people who like to hop them up in existance, and that the Civic's been on the road how many years????. Therefore the cost to build a competitive civic suspension is much cheaper than the 2.5RS/WRX. Heck, there were more WRX's sold this past year than all the 2.5RS's combined in their 4 years here in the US. So we (subaru's) have a limitied choice of suspensions to choose from, and those suspensions happen to be quite costly to the weekend competitior.
Just because we have to spend more to be competitive DOES NOT mean that our suspensions are superior than those that only pay $500 for their setup.
And on the 2.5RS vs WRX. You'll find that once the WRX is fully developed (and of next year probably) the difference of the two will come down to course design. As with any car, there are some courses that benefit one car over another. A shorter tighter course will benefit the 2800# 2.5 RS and the more open courses may benefit the WRX that doesn't have to keep shifting into 3rd like the 2.5RS.
And I agree, the WRX definitely needs low end torque to match the 2.5RS on tight cornering.
--KC
#66 STX [url]http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar[/url]
| Willman67 | 07-15-2002 10:54 AM |
KC....my long lost brother
KC
We have a very similar setup on our wagons and both run STX!
my setup:
2002 blue wagon with 4eat
SPD/STI springs and struts
STI strut tops soon to be replaced with CUSCO adjustable
Hotchkis front and rear sways (MRT endlinks going on in a few days)
Whiteline F/R strut braces
17 Team Dynamics with 225/45 r17 Falken Azenis RS
MRT intake
Borla cat back
Goodridge SS brake lones w/ motul
B+M racing tranny cooler w SS lines
Royal Purple Synth in engine and tranny
drawtite trailer hitch
And soon to be installed (when they arrive):
Nordskog tranny temp and engine oil tem gauges for a-pillar pod
Omori 52 mm gauge set
And to be ordered and installed before Nats:
Vishnu upipe
3rd cat replacement pipe
Unichip without boost control
upgraded rotors and pads
See ya on the track!
Wm
We have a very similar setup on our wagons and both run STX!
my setup:
2002 blue wagon with 4eat
SPD/STI springs and struts
STI strut tops soon to be replaced with CUSCO adjustable
Hotchkis front and rear sways (MRT endlinks going on in a few days)
Whiteline F/R strut braces
17 Team Dynamics with 225/45 r17 Falken Azenis RS
MRT intake
Borla cat back
Goodridge SS brake lones w/ motul
B+M racing tranny cooler w SS lines
Royal Purple Synth in engine and tranny
drawtite trailer hitch
And soon to be installed (when they arrive):
Nordskog tranny temp and engine oil tem gauges for a-pillar pod
Omori 52 mm gauge set
And to be ordered and installed before Nats:
Vishnu upipe
3rd cat replacement pipe
Unichip without boost control
upgraded rotors and pads
See ya on the track!
Wm
| gary p | 07-15-2002 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Not to pick on you... but:
Remove brakes out of the equasion. Why? If the RS moves to STX, then the 2.5RS can ALSO do anything to brakes because in STX, brakes are unlimited. So... light car + more stopping power + low torque = yikes! ;)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Wrong.
[B]Not to pick on you... but:
Remove brakes out of the equasion. Why? If the RS moves to STX, then the 2.5RS can ALSO do anything to brakes because in STX, brakes are unlimited. So... light car + more stopping power + low torque = yikes! ;)
[/B][/QUOTE]
Wrong.
| trhoppe | 07-15-2002 11:53 AM |
Please enlighten use "oh so wise one" :rolleyes: what is "wrong" with that previous post?
| TyrannoSullyRex | 07-15-2002 12:03 PM |
No kidding, KC's equation looks pretty sound.
| Orion | 07-15-2002 12:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gary p [/i]
[B]Wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow that explains it!:lol:
Anyway here's the older thread on the same subject....
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2178401#post2178401[/url]
[B]Wrong. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wow that explains it!:lol:
Anyway here's the older thread on the same subject....
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2178401#post2178401[/url]
| Blindeye_03 | 07-15-2002 12:56 PM |
Yea I started pondering that too.
4pot brakes :), and lightweight bumper beams (I dont know if theyre illegal in stx).
Still, most wrx's are faster than the RS's. I believe it would be most dependent on the Driver first of all and then the course (straights vs twisties).
-justin
4pot brakes :), and lightweight bumper beams (I dont know if theyre illegal in stx).
Still, most wrx's are faster than the RS's. I believe it would be most dependent on the Driver first of all and then the course (straights vs twisties).
-justin
| 2QUICK4U | 07-15-2002 01:10 PM |
are the samco hoses illegal in STX?
Maybe we can get some RS drivers to swtich to STX this year to boost the attendance and make the class official this year!
Maybe we can get some RS drivers to swtich to STX this year to boost the attendance and make the class official this year!
| Orion | 07-15-2002 01:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2QUICK4U [/i]
[B]are the samco hoses illegal in STX?
[/B][/QUOTE]
From what I have seen, yes, they are illegal. Any alterations to the IC and Throttle body are off limits.
Now, the Samco turbo inlet hose [I]should[/I] be legal as one can provide evidence that is is part of the air intake to the engine.
[B]are the samco hoses illegal in STX?
[/B][/QUOTE]
From what I have seen, yes, they are illegal. Any alterations to the IC and Throttle body are off limits.
Now, the Samco turbo inlet hose [I]should[/I] be legal as one can provide evidence that is is part of the air intake to the engine.
| 2QUICK4U | 07-15-2002 01:37 PM |
what is the interpretation that deems the hoses illegal? The is not actually a part of the intercooler. What if one of my stock hoses cracked. Wouldn't a samco hose be considered and equivalent replacement?
| Orion | 07-15-2002 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2QUICK4U [/i]
[B]what is the interpretation that deems the hoses illegal? The is not actually a part of the intercooler. What if one of my stock hoses cracked. Wouldn't a samco hose be considered and equivalent replacement? [/B][/QUOTE]
Below is taken from the Auto-X sticky...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]
OrionF, the samco turbo inlet hoses might be considered part of the intercooler system. I checked my service manuals and it's not clear to me if the inlet hose is considered part of the air intake or intercooler system. If it is part of the air intake, then it should be legal as part of a cold air intake.
The following rules are in question
13.10-a The engine air filter element may be removed or replaced. A replacement element which is taller than standard may not be used to hold the air cleaner cover open. No other components of the air induction system may be removed, replaced or modified.
and 17.10-b Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttlebody. [i]This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.[/i]
If you have put on the samco Y pipe for the intercooler, then your definately out of ST and into SP or SM. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree with ChrisW's assessment and I wouldn't run any of the Samco IC hoses, even though this was a response to the Samco Turbo Inlet hose. 17.10-b sums it all up with "[i]This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.[/i]"
[B]what is the interpretation that deems the hoses illegal? The is not actually a part of the intercooler. What if one of my stock hoses cracked. Wouldn't a samco hose be considered and equivalent replacement? [/B][/QUOTE]
Below is taken from the Auto-X sticky...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]
OrionF, the samco turbo inlet hoses might be considered part of the intercooler system. I checked my service manuals and it's not clear to me if the inlet hose is considered part of the air intake or intercooler system. If it is part of the air intake, then it should be legal as part of a cold air intake.
The following rules are in question
13.10-a The engine air filter element may be removed or replaced. A replacement element which is taller than standard may not be used to hold the air cleaner cover open. No other components of the air induction system may be removed, replaced or modified.
and 17.10-b Alternate air cleaner enclosures up to carburetor or throttlebody. [i]This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.[/i]
If you have put on the samco Y pipe for the intercooler, then your definately out of ST and into SP or SM. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree with ChrisW's assessment and I wouldn't run any of the Samco IC hoses, even though this was a response to the Samco Turbo Inlet hose. 17.10-b sums it all up with "[i]This does not allow any changes to intercoolers.[/i]"
| ColinL | 07-15-2002 07:06 PM |
the key differences here are chassis rigidity, weight and HP.
Subaru says the new chassis is over 100% stiffer. um, okay. whatever that means for STX.
Weight. Apples to apples, a MT 2.5RS vs. a MT WRX sedan is about 250lb. Significant? Sure.
Horsepower, and I know this is a class that allows some mods but let's go stock for stock. 165 vs. 227, when you're talking torque it's what 166 vs. 217? No question in the abrupt hysterics that is autocross that a naturally aspirated car is easier to drive to its potential than a turbocharged one, but still... that's a very large difference in power.
I think the power difference is too great for this to be an equitable matchup. Anyway if the move goes ahead next year we'll see what happens to the STX 2.5RS...
Subaru says the new chassis is over 100% stiffer. um, okay. whatever that means for STX.
Weight. Apples to apples, a MT 2.5RS vs. a MT WRX sedan is about 250lb. Significant? Sure.
Horsepower, and I know this is a class that allows some mods but let's go stock for stock. 165 vs. 227, when you're talking torque it's what 166 vs. 217? No question in the abrupt hysterics that is autocross that a naturally aspirated car is easier to drive to its potential than a turbocharged one, but still... that's a very large difference in power.
I think the power difference is too great for this to be an equitable matchup. Anyway if the move goes ahead next year we'll see what happens to the STX 2.5RS...
| ChrisW | 07-15-2002 07:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2QUICK4U [/i]
[B]are the samco hoses illegal in STX?
Maybe we can get some RS drivers to swtich to STX this year to boost the attendance and make the class official this year! [/B][/QUOTE]
no.
that puts you in ESP or SM
[B]are the samco hoses illegal in STX?
Maybe we can get some RS drivers to swtich to STX this year to boost the attendance and make the class official this year! [/B][/QUOTE]
no.
that puts you in ESP or SM
| ChrisW | 07-15-2002 07:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by orionf [/i]
[B]
From what I have seen, yes, they are illegal. Any alterations to the IC and Throttle body are off limits.
Now, the Samco turbo inlet hose [I]should[/I] be legal as one can provide evidence that is is part of the air intake to the engine. [/B][/QUOTE]
orionf,
I don't think the inlet hose would be legal either depending on how subaru mentions the part in the service manuals.
On the throttle body mods, that will also put you into ESP or SM.
[B]
From what I have seen, yes, they are illegal. Any alterations to the IC and Throttle body are off limits.
Now, the Samco turbo inlet hose [I]should[/I] be legal as one can provide evidence that is is part of the air intake to the engine. [/B][/QUOTE]
orionf,
I don't think the inlet hose would be legal either depending on how subaru mentions the part in the service manuals.
On the throttle body mods, that will also put you into ESP or SM.
| Orion | 07-16-2002 09:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]
orionf,
I don't think the inlet hose would be legal either depending on how subaru mentions the part in the service manuals.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I usually have my CD from the manuals with me, but I left it at home today. I'll have to look it up tomorrow.
[B]
orionf,
I don't think the inlet hose would be legal either depending on how subaru mentions the part in the service manuals.
[/B][/QUOTE]
I usually have my CD from the manuals with me, but I left it at home today. I'll have to look it up tomorrow.
| XT6Wagon | 07-16-2002 10:31 AM |
KC, Lets see I moderate a Civic board (one of the better ones too)
I also have noted that there is a HUGE population of Honda owners who get REAL sandy if they are told/shown that thier honda isn't made by god, blessed by the saints, and thought of as a holy relic by all the major religions.
I've also seen a large % of the modified hondas here are driven by said people. They sure didn't like it when my old 3,700lbs SHO was outrunning the local rice shop owners stripped hatch with I/H/E (maybe more) at the strip. They went from dirty looks, to outright hatred. The local AutoX has 2 kinds of honda owners a few that got one as a dirt cheap AutoX car to have fun in, and hopefull be compedative. The others (majority) are wankers who act all superior to everyone, and get REALLY pissed if anything runs remotely close to thier time in thier class. Good thing is they are the only people to run STS and SM there so its not a real issue.
To sum up, while its definitly not all, or even most, there IS a large number of Honda UberNazi's that like to bitch and moan when things are not thier idea of paridise.
I also have noted that there is a HUGE population of Honda owners who get REAL sandy if they are told/shown that thier honda isn't made by god, blessed by the saints, and thought of as a holy relic by all the major religions.
I've also seen a large % of the modified hondas here are driven by said people. They sure didn't like it when my old 3,700lbs SHO was outrunning the local rice shop owners stripped hatch with I/H/E (maybe more) at the strip. They went from dirty looks, to outright hatred. The local AutoX has 2 kinds of honda owners a few that got one as a dirt cheap AutoX car to have fun in, and hopefull be compedative. The others (majority) are wankers who act all superior to everyone, and get REALLY pissed if anything runs remotely close to thier time in thier class. Good thing is they are the only people to run STS and SM there so its not a real issue.
To sum up, while its definitly not all, or even most, there IS a large number of Honda UberNazi's that like to bitch and moan when things are not thier idea of paridise.
| gary p | 07-16-2002 12:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Please enlighten use "oh so wise one" :rolleyes: what is "wrong" with that previous post? [/B][/QUOTE]
There are no more brake allowances in STX that STS. A 2.5RS will still have to run stock calipers and stock-dimension rotors. (Cross drilled or slotted are O.K.) Somebody is confusing prep rules for SM and STX. :p Sorry, should have been more specific.
Not that it matters much; the stock calipers on a 2.5 are sufficient. As for "deep braking into a corner," we're talking about autocross, not road racing. The "late braking manuever" is great for passing somebody on a road course going into a turn, but not usually the fastest way [i]through[/i] the turn. You end up keeping position because you have the guy stuck behind you as you take the slow way around the turn. In an autocross it usually pays to brake ealier and power through the turns. Momentum is key, there is nobody to get around or keep behind you.
[B]Please enlighten use "oh so wise one" :rolleyes: what is "wrong" with that previous post? [/B][/QUOTE]
There are no more brake allowances in STX that STS. A 2.5RS will still have to run stock calipers and stock-dimension rotors. (Cross drilled or slotted are O.K.) Somebody is confusing prep rules for SM and STX. :p Sorry, should have been more specific.
Not that it matters much; the stock calipers on a 2.5 are sufficient. As for "deep braking into a corner," we're talking about autocross, not road racing. The "late braking manuever" is great for passing somebody on a road course going into a turn, but not usually the fastest way [i]through[/i] the turn. You end up keeping position because you have the guy stuck behind you as you take the slow way around the turn. In an autocross it usually pays to brake ealier and power through the turns. Momentum is key, there is nobody to get around or keep behind you.
| zzyzx | 07-16-2002 01:43 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gary p [/i]
[B]
There are no more brake allowances in STX that STS. [/B][/QUOTE]
Go back and read those rules. [b]Any[/b] rotor/caliper combo is allowed in STX as long as it attaches to the stock mounting location.
- Steve
[B]
There are no more brake allowances in STX that STS. [/B][/QUOTE]
Go back and read those rules. [b]Any[/b] rotor/caliper combo is allowed in STX as long as it attaches to the stock mounting location.
- Steve
| gary p | 07-16-2002 02:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]
Go back and read those rules. [b]Any[/b] rotor/caliper combo is allowed in STX as long as it attaches to the stock mounting location.
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
You're right, I'm wrong. My bad. I'm standing naked awaiting my punishment. Flame away :o
[B]
Go back and read those rules. [b]Any[/b] rotor/caliper combo is allowed in STX as long as it attaches to the stock mounting location.
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
You're right, I'm wrong. My bad. I'm standing naked awaiting my punishment. Flame away :o
| KC | 07-16-2002 04:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by gary p [/i]
[B]You're right, I'm wrong. My bad. I'm standing naked awaiting my punishment. Flame away :o [/B][/QUOTE]Honest mistake. I've fought hard for something I thought, only to be wrong.... like every week? :D
No biggie. :) As your punishment... never mind fire... just a few ice cubes down the back of your shirt.
--kC
[URL=http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar]#66 STX[/URL] - Sponsored by: [URL=http://www.subaruwrxparts.com]SubaruWRXParts[/URL] & [URL=http://www.rallydecals.com]RallyDecals.com[/URL]
[B]You're right, I'm wrong. My bad. I'm standing naked awaiting my punishment. Flame away :o [/B][/QUOTE]Honest mistake. I've fought hard for something I thought, only to be wrong.... like every week? :D
No biggie. :) As your punishment... never mind fire... just a few ice cubes down the back of your shirt.
--kC
[URL=http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar]#66 STX[/URL] - Sponsored by: [URL=http://www.subaruwrxparts.com]SubaruWRXParts[/URL] & [URL=http://www.rallydecals.com]RallyDecals.com[/URL]
| Porsche914boxer4 | 07-16-2002 09:14 PM |
Great. Now I have to move to some other class to win.
Well, this is just plain dumb.
I don't think Turbos and NA cars should be allowed in the same class unless there is some sort of disparity that evens them. No such disparity exists between the Subarus. Turbo lag my a$s. Any decent driver knows how to left foot brake. There is just too much HP available to the ST-prepped WRX that would make blowing away an STS prepped RS very easy.
I used to beat WRX'es all night long in my lightly modded RS, but now with the expansive aftermarket and people learning to use the WRX'es characteristics to their advantage, the WRX'es will mop up, as stated before.
I was going to consider running in STX and STS at Nationals to help the class out, but now that I know that might contribute to the reclassing of my car with the Rex'es, no thanks.
STS till I die!
Eli
I don't think Turbos and NA cars should be allowed in the same class unless there is some sort of disparity that evens them. No such disparity exists between the Subarus. Turbo lag my a$s. Any decent driver knows how to left foot brake. There is just too much HP available to the ST-prepped WRX that would make blowing away an STS prepped RS very easy.
I used to beat WRX'es all night long in my lightly modded RS, but now with the expansive aftermarket and people learning to use the WRX'es characteristics to their advantage, the WRX'es will mop up, as stated before.
I was going to consider running in STX and STS at Nationals to help the class out, but now that I know that might contribute to the reclassing of my car with the Rex'es, no thanks.
STS till I die!
Eli
| 2QUICK4U | 07-17-2002 12:16 AM |
come on Eli, run STX at Nationals, we need the numbers! The RS is going to get bumped anyway. The Subie's are out numbered, there's too many Honda, etc., that are complaining about your AWD being an unfair advantage in STS.
There should definitely be more than 2 street tire classes, but until that happens you might as well join us. Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year.
FB
There should definitely be more than 2 street tire classes, but until that happens you might as well join us. Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year.
FB
| HIHO | 07-26-2002 12:06 AM |
I'm not scared of STX, and I have a 97 Legacy. This is my first year auto-xing and have a whole lot to learn. One thing I already know is that my car can and does(3200lb) perform well in STS. I am racing against guys with alot more time under their belts and beating them. I personally think I have an advantage over the other cars in STS. Is that not why we bought a Subaru. Subarus are just winning more.
It is better than a weight penalty.:)
It is better than a weight penalty.:)
| Opie | 07-26-2002 08:10 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2QUICK4U [/i]
[B]come on Eli, run STX at Nationals, we need the numbers! The RS is going to get bumped anyway......
Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year. FB [/B][/QUOTE]
Shakes head...when I first heard rumors that if STX had over 15 entries at Topeka it would become a National class I seriously considered entering to help the WRX group get the class they deserve. Then came the Fastrack about if STX gets those 15 enteries and becomes a National class the RS would be moved into STX. Now on one hand I think STX should be a national class, but on the other hand I seriously doubt the RS can be competitive in STX, why then should I help cut myself from STS? Sure the 2.5RS may be competitve this year, but what about next year? How long and how badly will the RS have to be beaten before it gets moved back into a class where it can be competitive?
I'm sorry to see that the STX guys are so headstrong about getting their class established they are willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren. How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?
Sorry if I sound pissed here but I am. I have spent 3 years prepping my car for and competing in STS to get competitive and now when it seems that I'm finally getting there the SCCA is planning to pull the rug out from under my feet! And it's almost as upsetting that it seems as long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else.
[B]come on Eli, run STX at Nationals, we need the numbers! The RS is going to get bumped anyway......
Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year. FB [/B][/QUOTE]
Shakes head...when I first heard rumors that if STX had over 15 entries at Topeka it would become a National class I seriously considered entering to help the WRX group get the class they deserve. Then came the Fastrack about if STX gets those 15 enteries and becomes a National class the RS would be moved into STX. Now on one hand I think STX should be a national class, but on the other hand I seriously doubt the RS can be competitive in STX, why then should I help cut myself from STS? Sure the 2.5RS may be competitve this year, but what about next year? How long and how badly will the RS have to be beaten before it gets moved back into a class where it can be competitive?
I'm sorry to see that the STX guys are so headstrong about getting their class established they are willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren. How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?
Sorry if I sound pissed here but I am. I have spent 3 years prepping my car for and competing in STS to get competitive and now when it seems that I'm finally getting there the SCCA is planning to pull the rug out from under my feet! And it's almost as upsetting that it seems as long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else.
| Opie | 07-26-2002 08:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2QUICK4U [/i]
[B]come on Eli, run STX at Nationals, we need the numbers! The RS is going to get bumped anyway......
Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year. FB [/B][/QUOTE]
Shakes head...when I first heard rumors that if STX had over 15 entries at Topeka it would become a National class I seriously considered entering to help the WRX group get the class they deserve. Then came the Fastrack about if STX gets those 15 enteries and becomes a National class the RS would be moved into STX. Now on one hand I think STX should be a national class, but on the other hand I seriously doubt the RS can be competitive in STX, why then should I help cut myself from STS? Sure the 2.5RS may be competitve this year, but what about next year? How long and how badly will the RS have to be beaten before it gets moved back into a class where it can be competitive?
I'm sorry to see that the STX guys are so headstrong about getting their class established they are willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren. How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?
Sorry if I sound pissed here but I am. I have spent 3 years prepping my car for and competing in STS to get competitive and now when it seems that I'm finally getting there the SCCA is planning to pull the rug out from under my feet! And it's almost as upsetting that it seems as long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else.
Rant off...
[B]come on Eli, run STX at Nationals, we need the numbers! The RS is going to get bumped anyway......
Honestly you probably have just as good of chance placing in STX as you do in STS this year. FB [/B][/QUOTE]
Shakes head...when I first heard rumors that if STX had over 15 entries at Topeka it would become a National class I seriously considered entering to help the WRX group get the class they deserve. Then came the Fastrack about if STX gets those 15 enteries and becomes a National class the RS would be moved into STX. Now on one hand I think STX should be a national class, but on the other hand I seriously doubt the RS can be competitive in STX, why then should I help cut myself from STS? Sure the 2.5RS may be competitve this year, but what about next year? How long and how badly will the RS have to be beaten before it gets moved back into a class where it can be competitive?
I'm sorry to see that the STX guys are so headstrong about getting their class established they are willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren. How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?
Sorry if I sound pissed here but I am. I have spent 3 years prepping my car for and competing in STS to get competitive and now when it seems that I'm finally getting there the SCCA is planning to pull the rug out from under my feet! And it's almost as upsetting that it seems as long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else.
Rant off...
| trhoppe | 07-26-2002 08:23 AM |
[QUOTE]How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?[/QUOTE] oo oo oo! [ raises hand ] I did! Richard West asked me to.
IMHO, the 2.5RS should stay in STS. Yes they are winning the ProSolos, but they are NOT winning the Tours. It will be the same way in STX. The car will be competitive in the Pros and will get spanked in the Tours. I talked with richard about it this past weekend and those were his comments. I definetly agree with him.
Also, the proposed rule will not put the 2.5RS in there until 2004...right? With that, it will give some time for some letters to be sent and also some good comparison for times. This way we'll be able to tell if the 2.5RS will be competitive against fully developed STX WRXs. I will have a fully setup, may not be developed yet :lol: , but it sure will be setup to the letter of the rules, WRX. There are quite a few others out there who will have a nicely setup WRX to compare against.
-Tom
IMHO, the 2.5RS should stay in STS. Yes they are winning the ProSolos, but they are NOT winning the Tours. It will be the same way in STX. The car will be competitive in the Pros and will get spanked in the Tours. I talked with richard about it this past weekend and those were his comments. I definetly agree with him.
Also, the proposed rule will not put the 2.5RS in there until 2004...right? With that, it will give some time for some letters to be sent and also some good comparison for times. This way we'll be able to tell if the 2.5RS will be competitive against fully developed STX WRXs. I will have a fully setup, may not be developed yet :lol: , but it sure will be setup to the letter of the rules, WRX. There are quite a few others out there who will have a nicely setup WRX to compare against.
-Tom
| OldRacer | 07-26-2002 09:02 AM |
Opie, put your Nomex on. Porsche914, too.
In the year I've been around the i-club, I have resisted the urge, up till now, to post anything....negative. Guess there's a first time for everything.
1) I think if you re-read Fastrack, its clear there is NO connection made or implied between the number of STX-ers that show up at Topeka, and the shift of the 2.5RS (and other things) to STX.
2) Starting from that non-existant connection, you go down hill from there...."STX guys....so headstrong...willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren." Horse s__t. I can only speak for myself, but I cannot imagine ANYONE running in STX that wants, or is behind the stupid SCCA politics that are driving the proposed adjustments. The pressure is coming from OUTSIDE the Subaru community. That seems patently clear.
3) "As long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else." Oh, come on.... a) back to point 1-there is no connection between recognition of the class at Nats this year, and the changes in STS being considered; zip, nada! b)other than the non-existant connection, what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX? It may be different elsewhere, but I've been getting my arse handed to me regularly (comparing times) by a well prepped/driven RS
4) I've watched that RS get beaten by a 200SX and a Honda Civic. The anti-Subie perspective of the 2.5RS as a class-killer is horse s__t, too. Yes, I have sent my letter.
So, to sum it up, I think the SCCA politics behind changes to STS stinks. Its got nothing to do with "STX folk"- including WRX owners. The kind of mis-directed divisivness you're trying to stir up is totally unwarranted, and inappropriate.
OK, my rant off, too....
Len
In the year I've been around the i-club, I have resisted the urge, up till now, to post anything....negative. Guess there's a first time for everything.
1) I think if you re-read Fastrack, its clear there is NO connection made or implied between the number of STX-ers that show up at Topeka, and the shift of the 2.5RS (and other things) to STX.
2) Starting from that non-existant connection, you go down hill from there...."STX guys....so headstrong...willing to sell out their 2.5RS brethren." Horse s__t. I can only speak for myself, but I cannot imagine ANYONE running in STX that wants, or is behind the stupid SCCA politics that are driving the proposed adjustments. The pressure is coming from OUTSIDE the Subaru community. That seems patently clear.
3) "As long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else." Oh, come on.... a) back to point 1-there is no connection between recognition of the class at Nats this year, and the changes in STS being considered; zip, nada! b)other than the non-existant connection, what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX? It may be different elsewhere, but I've been getting my arse handed to me regularly (comparing times) by a well prepped/driven RS
4) I've watched that RS get beaten by a 200SX and a Honda Civic. The anti-Subie perspective of the 2.5RS as a class-killer is horse s__t, too. Yes, I have sent my letter.
So, to sum it up, I think the SCCA politics behind changes to STS stinks. Its got nothing to do with "STX folk"- including WRX owners. The kind of mis-directed divisivness you're trying to stir up is totally unwarranted, and inappropriate.
OK, my rant off, too....
Len
| elgorey | 07-26-2002 09:09 AM |
[QUOTE]How many of you STX WRX owners have tried to help us out by sending a letter to the STAC stating that you are opposed to moving the 2.5RS even though you don't own one?[/QUOTE]
I would love to! Problem is I dont know what address to send that letter to, email or snailmail. I have also posted on other boards asking if anybody knows the adress but no one seems to know.
It is so typical-SCCA to ask for feedback but not give an adress to send that feedback to. :rolleyes: :monkey: SCCA
I completely agree that the RS belongs in STS. What bothers me the most about this issue, is that this was initiated a particular (anti-subaru) member of the STAC who keeps getting beaten by RSs and cant own up to the fact that it is the DRIVER not the car. So in order to restore his ego he wants to boot the RS out of STS. It makes me sick that people like this are making decisions in the SCCA. I am fairly new to autoX, absolutely love it and plan on running nationals next year, but if this goes through then that will kill any motivation and desire to compete in autoX, it just makes me sick.
edit: found it [email][email protected][/email]
Evan
"anyone faster than me should be moved to a different class"
I would love to! Problem is I dont know what address to send that letter to, email or snailmail. I have also posted on other boards asking if anybody knows the adress but no one seems to know.
It is so typical-SCCA to ask for feedback but not give an adress to send that feedback to. :rolleyes: :monkey: SCCA
I completely agree that the RS belongs in STS. What bothers me the most about this issue, is that this was initiated a particular (anti-subaru) member of the STAC who keeps getting beaten by RSs and cant own up to the fact that it is the DRIVER not the car. So in order to restore his ego he wants to boot the RS out of STS. It makes me sick that people like this are making decisions in the SCCA. I am fairly new to autoX, absolutely love it and plan on running nationals next year, but if this goes through then that will kill any motivation and desire to compete in autoX, it just makes me sick.
edit: found it [email][email protected][/email]
Evan
"anyone faster than me should be moved to a different class"
| 2QUICK4U | 07-26-2002 01:00 PM |
I couldn't agree with OldRacer more. My comments were in no way an indication that I don't care about the RS being in STS, which IS where I think it belongs. My comments were directed specifically at porsche914, who is a friend of mine. All I was saying is looking at past tour event results where top STS times were faster than the STX times, and knowing that STS is one of the most competitive classes out there, he would have just as good if not a better chance of trophying in STX, and at the same time could help the class make its number.
I would be happy to send an e-mail to the SCCA to keep the RS in STS. I am all in favor of keeping Subie's penetrated into as many classes as possible.
FB
I would be happy to send an e-mail to the SCCA to keep the RS in STS. I am all in favor of keeping Subie's penetrated into as many classes as possible.
FB
| PaulC | 07-26-2002 03:49 PM |
This is a non-Subie driving, STS competitor's point of view.
I drive an NX2000 in STS, and am sort-of competitive. I went to the Atwater tour and placed well out of the trophies, but far enough from DFL to be worth it :) Ken Stolz drove his 2.5RS to second place, Will Kalman and his Super Escort won the event by 1.5s.
I didn't even bother with the Atwater Pro because a)I suck at drag racing and b)I don't have an AWD car. In fact, I begged a friend of mine, ChrisW on here, to run his ESP WRX so I could pay his entry and warm his tires. He didn't bite, so I didn't go. At that event Hiroo Sumida beat the field in his 2.5RS, Will was 1s behind in second place.
Anyway, my point is that FWD doesn't stand a chance against AWD in ProSolo competition. We're talking a .3-4s lead in the first 60'! Considering that ProSolo courses are shorter than National Solo courses that is a pretty huge advantage. AND there's more money in ProSolo than in National Solo. I think that is what is driving the effort to move the AWD cars out of STS.
But I completely agree that the 2.5 will get stomped by the WRX given equally talented drivers.. So what's the solution? I have no idea. I drive a Nissan anyway. :p
I drive an NX2000 in STS, and am sort-of competitive. I went to the Atwater tour and placed well out of the trophies, but far enough from DFL to be worth it :) Ken Stolz drove his 2.5RS to second place, Will Kalman and his Super Escort won the event by 1.5s.
I didn't even bother with the Atwater Pro because a)I suck at drag racing and b)I don't have an AWD car. In fact, I begged a friend of mine, ChrisW on here, to run his ESP WRX so I could pay his entry and warm his tires. He didn't bite, so I didn't go. At that event Hiroo Sumida beat the field in his 2.5RS, Will was 1s behind in second place.
Anyway, my point is that FWD doesn't stand a chance against AWD in ProSolo competition. We're talking a .3-4s lead in the first 60'! Considering that ProSolo courses are shorter than National Solo courses that is a pretty huge advantage. AND there's more money in ProSolo than in National Solo. I think that is what is driving the effort to move the AWD cars out of STS.
But I completely agree that the 2.5 will get stomped by the WRX given equally talented drivers.. So what's the solution? I have no idea. I drive a Nissan anyway. :p
| Opie | 07-29-2002 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE]oo oo oo! [ raises hand ] I did! Richard West asked me to.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tom, OldRacer, elgorey and everyone else who has expressed their opposition to this rule change to the SEB. It really hits home how bad an idea it is when even the top drivers in the class (R.West) are worried by it. Myself and many other STS driving RS owners sincerely appriciate it.
OldRacer - No, no flame suit needed :), I'm a big boy I can take it.
[Quote]what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX?[/quote] I was suggesting only that the STX crowd wants STX to become a National class...nothing more. I never said that I felt that members of the Subaru community were pushing for the 2.5RS to be moved. I merely suggested that they were so eager to get their national class that they were missing the fact that other Subaru owners were possibly going to be shuffled around. I wasn't trying to stir up anything, the fact remains that people "outside" the Subaru community are trying to force this change, and they are doing it by dividing the Subaru community. Divide & conquer. Give the WRX drivers the STX class they want if the numbers are there, then bump the 2.5 guys where we (we being the outsiders) don't have to compete against them.
I auto-x in a region where I get to talk face-to-face with many of the people who are influential in the decisions of the SEB & STAC. I have been told from very reliable sources that if the STX class has over 18 entries in Topeka it will become a National class in 2003. Add that with the following quote in the August 2002 Fastrack and you'll see where I drew my conclusion from:
[QUOTE]...the SEB has reviewed and is presenting for member feedback, the STAC's current statement of vision for this catagory, which is as follows: If STX reaches national status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD normally-aspirated vehicles, and all others (AWD, Turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5RS would remain viable cars for STX.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that the 2.5RS is specifically mentioned in the proposed change. Since when did the STAC start classing cars based soley on their drivetrain or powertrain and not on their actual real world performance?
I can tell you from personal knowledge that people (non-Subaru's) are competeing in STX this season soley to help boost STX's attendance numbers so that it will become a national class. That way these individuals can switch back into STS and not have to deal with those pesky 2.5RS's. Pretty sad when it's these same people who will tell you it's the driver not the car that wins a race. Even more surprising when it's someone who helps sponsor many SCCA events & programs.
Corporate BS for personal gain or satisfaction, makes me sick.
Thanks Tom, OldRacer, elgorey and everyone else who has expressed their opposition to this rule change to the SEB. It really hits home how bad an idea it is when even the top drivers in the class (R.West) are worried by it. Myself and many other STS driving RS owners sincerely appriciate it.
OldRacer - No, no flame suit needed :), I'm a big boy I can take it.
[Quote]what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX?[/quote] I was suggesting only that the STX crowd wants STX to become a National class...nothing more. I never said that I felt that members of the Subaru community were pushing for the 2.5RS to be moved. I merely suggested that they were so eager to get their national class that they were missing the fact that other Subaru owners were possibly going to be shuffled around. I wasn't trying to stir up anything, the fact remains that people "outside" the Subaru community are trying to force this change, and they are doing it by dividing the Subaru community. Divide & conquer. Give the WRX drivers the STX class they want if the numbers are there, then bump the 2.5 guys where we (we being the outsiders) don't have to compete against them.
I auto-x in a region where I get to talk face-to-face with many of the people who are influential in the decisions of the SEB & STAC. I have been told from very reliable sources that if the STX class has over 18 entries in Topeka it will become a National class in 2003. Add that with the following quote in the August 2002 Fastrack and you'll see where I drew my conclusion from:
[QUOTE]...the SEB has reviewed and is presenting for member feedback, the STAC's current statement of vision for this catagory, which is as follows: If STX reaches national status, the vehicle eligibility for STS would be restricted to permit only 2WD normally-aspirated vehicles, and all others (AWD, Turbos) would go into STX. The STAC believes that models such as the Subaru Impreza 2.5RS would remain viable cars for STX.[/QUOTE]
Interesting that the 2.5RS is specifically mentioned in the proposed change. Since when did the STAC start classing cars based soley on their drivetrain or powertrain and not on their actual real world performance?
I can tell you from personal knowledge that people (non-Subaru's) are competeing in STX this season soley to help boost STX's attendance numbers so that it will become a national class. That way these individuals can switch back into STS and not have to deal with those pesky 2.5RS's. Pretty sad when it's these same people who will tell you it's the driver not the car that wins a race. Even more surprising when it's someone who helps sponsor many SCCA events & programs.
Corporate BS for personal gain or satisfaction, makes me sick.
| AWMIII | 07-30-2002 07:04 AM |
On more open courses, I regularlly run faster than the 2.5s with better drivers than myself. On the tight, east-coast, small lot stuff, I am about even. It really is course dependent. You Mention 227 vs 165 hp, but it is really more like 260 vs 175 in full stx trim.
| Willman67 | 07-30-2002 06:06 PM |
a little history
I seem to remember that folks were talking about the STX class 9 months ago being promulgated to deal with the new wave of WRX/STI/EVO cars plopping out of the manufacturing pipeline...not simply for AWD vehicles. I was under the impression that the spirit of the class was to accomodate higher horse platforms (not SS class though) over 200 hp roughly and give them a class to grow into as performance mods became available to begin to optimize handling characteristics. This makes perfect sense strategically as more limited production forced induction variants are showing up.
I think that the 2.5 RS should stay in STS. It is a mature, well sorted out class with a large following. Let STX evolve as it was initially conceptualized. Remeber folks, mustangs, cobra mustangs and other v-8 chassis also qualify for STX!
peace
Wm
I think that the 2.5 RS should stay in STS. It is a mature, well sorted out class with a large following. Let STX evolve as it was initially conceptualized. Remeber folks, mustangs, cobra mustangs and other v-8 chassis also qualify for STX!
peace
Wm
| Jaxx | 08-01-2002 04:54 PM |
i believe AWMIII has hit the nail on the head..
on one of the local courses i was well in to 3rd gear... there is no way my rs would have gotten there..
on one of the local courses i was well in to 3rd gear... there is no way my rs would have gotten there..
| trhoppe | 08-01-2002 05:02 PM |
[QUOTE] deal with the new wave of WRX/STI/EVO cars [/QUOTE] Now thats a whole new thread! I would be REALLY pissed if the SCCA allowed the STi and the Evo into STX. They should be outlawed in the same way the E36 M3 is outlawed. How fair would it be to put a WRX and a STi with the same mods against each other?
-Tom
-Tom
| Gary (gg) | 08-01-2002 10:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OldRacer [/i]
[B]1) I think if you re-read Fastrack, its clear there is NO connection made or implied between the number of STX-ers that show up at Topeka, and the shift of the 2.5RS (and other things) to STX.
3) "As long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else." Oh, come on.... a) back to point 1-there is no connection between recognition of the class at Nats this year, and the changes in STS being considered; zip, nada! b)other than the non-existant connection, what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX? It may be different elsewhere, but I've been getting my arse handed to me regularly (comparing times) by a well prepped/driven RS
Len [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, the 2.5RS, AWD cars, and inclusion cars will move to STX if STX becomes an official class. Otherwise we will stay in STS if STX is not a viable class.
Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary
[B]1) I think if you re-read Fastrack, its clear there is NO connection made or implied between the number of STX-ers that show up at Topeka, and the shift of the 2.5RS (and other things) to STX.
3) "As long as the STX crowd gets what they want, it doesn't matter how it affects anyone else." Oh, come on.... a) back to point 1-there is no connection between recognition of the class at Nats this year, and the changes in STS being considered; zip, nada! b)other than the non-existant connection, what are you suggesting "we" want?? Why do you think "we" "want" the 2.5RS in STX? It may be different elsewhere, but I've been getting my arse handed to me regularly (comparing times) by a well prepped/driven RS
Len [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, the 2.5RS, AWD cars, and inclusion cars will move to STX if STX becomes an official class. Otherwise we will stay in STS if STX is not a viable class.
Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary
| Blindeye_03 | 08-02-2002 01:47 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gary (gg) [/i]
[B]
Actually, the 2.5RS, AWD cars, and inclusion cars will move to STX if STX becomes an official class. Otherwise we will stay in STS if STX is not a viable class.
Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Im not too bothered with it anymore really... I think I am just going to make the move into SM and not worry about it anymore :).
With the cost of 4pots being ALMOST the same as pads and rotors (nice ones mind you), its hard not to choose the 4pots and just lunge into SM.
I dont know who was smoking the weed when they decided to put the RS into STX.
-justin
[B]
Actually, the 2.5RS, AWD cars, and inclusion cars will move to STX if STX becomes an official class. Otherwise we will stay in STS if STX is not a viable class.
Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Im not too bothered with it anymore really... I think I am just going to make the move into SM and not worry about it anymore :).
With the cost of 4pots being ALMOST the same as pads and rotors (nice ones mind you), its hard not to choose the 4pots and just lunge into SM.
I dont know who was smoking the weed when they decided to put the RS into STX.
-justin
| KC | 08-02-2002 09:30 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gary (gg) [/i]
[B] Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]If STX becomes a 'class' Hankook contingency may carry over to STX too. :)
I still don't agree with the idea of the RS coming in STX. Especially IF the EVO and the STi are going to be in the class.
--kC
[B] Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.
Gary [/B][/QUOTE]If STX becomes a 'class' Hankook contingency may carry over to STX too. :)
I still don't agree with the idea of the RS coming in STX. Especially IF the EVO and the STi are going to be in the class.
--kC
| CamaroFS34 | 08-02-2002 10:07 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by PaulC [/i]
[B]Anyway, my point is that FWD doesn't stand a chance against AWD in ProSolo competition. We're talking a .3-4s lead in the first 60'![/B][/QUOTE]That's BS, and look at the practice start times if you don't believe me. The Subaru gets [i]maybe[/i] 0.2 at the start, and that's saying equal drivers, and exact same reaction times, etc., etc. The problem is, most of those who are arguing to have the Imprezas moved have not even driven a well-prepped Impreza back-to-back with a well-prepped FWD car such as a Civic, a Neon or an Escort.
I just drove two very competitive STS cars out at Wendover, and I'd forgotten how freakin' [i]gutless[/i] the Impreza is. Your NX2000 may not get off the line like the Impreza, but it sure as hell accelerates better. My brother sold his '91 SE-R and bought a 2000 RS.... and he complains constantly about the lack of torque in the Subaru. Look at the Wendover results. Hiroo didn't run away with the win there, and the only reason Will Kalman didn't finish higher was because his Escort broke, and so he only had two runs in O'Neill's Civic.... two runs that put him in 4th!! Of the five trophy positions, 3 were FWD.
Another issue is this : since [i]when[/i] have cars been classified based on ProSolo performance??? If this precedent is set, what's next? Carter Thompson's gonna get the MR2 Turbo bumped to SS?
Don't get me started. I want to save the fire for the letter. I just get tired of people whining when the [i]real[/i] issue is car [i]prep[/i] and driver talent. I already had a huge argument with Rob Falkner on the phone yesterday about this, and even [i]he[/i] doesn't understand (and he's SCAC), he told me "it's because of the limited slip." What?! My response was, "Well, what about the SE-R? It's got a limited slip too!" and the conversation deteriorated as he tried to explain what he meant.... and if he doesn't understand, how can we expect the SEB to [i]really[/i] know? We [i]have[/i] to write letters filled with [i]factual[/i] information -- use the Tour and the ProSolo data, and definitely note your experience in the cars in question. I have driven a couple of different STS cars, as well as plenty of other classes. I hope that my argument can be taken seriously.
Karen
[B]Anyway, my point is that FWD doesn't stand a chance against AWD in ProSolo competition. We're talking a .3-4s lead in the first 60'![/B][/QUOTE]That's BS, and look at the practice start times if you don't believe me. The Subaru gets [i]maybe[/i] 0.2 at the start, and that's saying equal drivers, and exact same reaction times, etc., etc. The problem is, most of those who are arguing to have the Imprezas moved have not even driven a well-prepped Impreza back-to-back with a well-prepped FWD car such as a Civic, a Neon or an Escort.
I just drove two very competitive STS cars out at Wendover, and I'd forgotten how freakin' [i]gutless[/i] the Impreza is. Your NX2000 may not get off the line like the Impreza, but it sure as hell accelerates better. My brother sold his '91 SE-R and bought a 2000 RS.... and he complains constantly about the lack of torque in the Subaru. Look at the Wendover results. Hiroo didn't run away with the win there, and the only reason Will Kalman didn't finish higher was because his Escort broke, and so he only had two runs in O'Neill's Civic.... two runs that put him in 4th!! Of the five trophy positions, 3 were FWD.
Another issue is this : since [i]when[/i] have cars been classified based on ProSolo performance??? If this precedent is set, what's next? Carter Thompson's gonna get the MR2 Turbo bumped to SS?
Don't get me started. I want to save the fire for the letter. I just get tired of people whining when the [i]real[/i] issue is car [i]prep[/i] and driver talent. I already had a huge argument with Rob Falkner on the phone yesterday about this, and even [i]he[/i] doesn't understand (and he's SCAC), he told me "it's because of the limited slip." What?! My response was, "Well, what about the SE-R? It's got a limited slip too!" and the conversation deteriorated as he tried to explain what he meant.... and if he doesn't understand, how can we expect the SEB to [i]really[/i] know? We [i]have[/i] to write letters filled with [i]factual[/i] information -- use the Tour and the ProSolo data, and definitely note your experience in the cars in question. I have driven a couple of different STS cars, as well as plenty of other classes. I hope that my argument can be taken seriously.
Karen
| CamaroFS34 | 08-02-2002 10:11 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Gary (gg) [/i]
[B]Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.[/B][/QUOTE]Actually, the Hankook money isn't in STX because the initial proposal to Hankook was written before STX was conceived. When Hankook accepted, and the STX class was created, SCCA didn't want to jeopardize the new relationship by suddenly asking for [i]twice[/i] the money (for STX/STXL contingency), and so STX does not have the Hankook contingency.
I learned this from Heyward Wagner.
Karen
[B]Also, its about the $$$. They don't want to give us a chance on winning Hankook's contingency money and allow the Honda and Neon guys to win it.[/B][/QUOTE]Actually, the Hankook money isn't in STX because the initial proposal to Hankook was written before STX was conceived. When Hankook accepted, and the STX class was created, SCCA didn't want to jeopardize the new relationship by suddenly asking for [i]twice[/i] the money (for STX/STXL contingency), and so STX does not have the Hankook contingency.
I learned this from Heyward Wagner.
Karen
| trhoppe | 08-02-2002 10:22 AM |
[QUOTE]Especially IF the EVO and the STi are going to be in the class.[/QUOTE] Thats sure one way to KILL STX IMHO. I don't think a WRX will be able to compete..or a type-r for that matter.
-Tom
-Tom
| HIHO | 08-02-2002 04:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CamaroFS34 [/i]
[B]That's BS,
I just drove two very competitive STS cars out at Wendover, and I'd forgotten how freakin' [i]gutless[/i] the Impreza is. Your NX2000 may not get off the line like the Impreza, but it sure as hell accelerates better. My brother sold his '91 SE-R and bought a 2000 RS.... and he complains constantly about the lack of torque in the Subaru. [/B][/QUOTE]
Now thats a load of BS right out the cows arse.
[B]That's BS,
I just drove two very competitive STS cars out at Wendover, and I'd forgotten how freakin' [i]gutless[/i] the Impreza is. Your NX2000 may not get off the line like the Impreza, but it sure as hell accelerates better. My brother sold his '91 SE-R and bought a 2000 RS.... and he complains constantly about the lack of torque in the Subaru. [/B][/QUOTE]
Now thats a load of BS right out the cows arse.
| CamaroFS34 | 08-03-2002 01:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HIHO [/i]
[B]Now thats a load of BS right out the cows arse. [/B][/QUOTE]Whatever. What's your background with the cars at hand?
Karen
[edit] and if you're going to quote me, don't quote things out of context. Maybe my reply was a little on the contrite side, but I get really tired of people who refuse to believe there are better drivers out there, and decide that it's all the car, and go on crusades to get the car reclassed. The issues at hand in this argument are whether or not the Subaru RS is an overdog in STS -- and having driven several different STS cars, not just Subarus, I maintain it is not. The Subaru has a [i]slight[/i] advantage off the line due to AWD, but its relative lack of torque (as compared to other cars in the class) equalizes this perceived advantage in short order. If you don't agree with this, fine, but telling me that I'm "talking out my arse" is out of line.
[B]Now thats a load of BS right out the cows arse. [/B][/QUOTE]Whatever. What's your background with the cars at hand?
Karen
[edit] and if you're going to quote me, don't quote things out of context. Maybe my reply was a little on the contrite side, but I get really tired of people who refuse to believe there are better drivers out there, and decide that it's all the car, and go on crusades to get the car reclassed. The issues at hand in this argument are whether or not the Subaru RS is an overdog in STS -- and having driven several different STS cars, not just Subarus, I maintain it is not. The Subaru has a [i]slight[/i] advantage off the line due to AWD, but its relative lack of torque (as compared to other cars in the class) equalizes this perceived advantage in short order. If you don't agree with this, fine, but telling me that I'm "talking out my arse" is out of line.
| HIHO | 08-03-2002 04:35 PM |
I think the RS should stay in STS too. I drive a Legacy in STS. I run against Civics, Focus, Neons, and a couple of NX2000. I do well in this class for a first year autoxer. I get beat by the old school guys. I don't understand how you can say 2.5 has LESS torque than the other cars in STS. I put my car into 2nd and leave it there on short courses. The other drivers have to go back to first. The torque is the reason my big car can run with the coupes.
| Mean | 08-04-2002 10:50 AM |
Vince Bly told me this story:
He said George Perinis (sp?) drove his STS Prelude and got within 0.1 seconds of his 200SX SE-R back when he ran it. George then jumped into Richard West's 2.5RS and came up with a 1.0 second advantage over both cars on his 1st run. This is Solo II, not a ProSolo.
Vince used this story to tell me why the 2.5RS should be in STX. And since he is on the board...
Gene
He said George Perinis (sp?) drove his STS Prelude and got within 0.1 seconds of his 200SX SE-R back when he ran it. George then jumped into Richard West's 2.5RS and came up with a 1.0 second advantage over both cars on his 1st run. This is Solo II, not a ProSolo.
Vince used this story to tell me why the 2.5RS should be in STX. And since he is on the board...
Gene
| CamaroFS34 | 08-04-2002 12:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mean [/i]
[B]Vince Bly told me this story:
He said George Perinis (sp?) drove his STS Prelude and got within 0.1 seconds of his 200SX SE-R back when he ran it. George then jumped into Richard West's 2.5RS and came up with a 1.0 second advantage over both cars on his 1st run. This is Solo II, not a ProSolo. [/B][/QUOTE]And the fact that Richard West has prepared his car to the extent of the rules while George's and Vince's car's are not (were not, in George's case, since he's sold the car) figures into this [i]how[/i]? (and yes, I know all three people in question [i]personally[/i], and have driven Richard's car before)
See, that's another issue that [i]has[/i] to be considered in a class that is far from "stock" -- how much of the perception that a car is an overdog is due to the fact that those cars happen to be better prepared than the others? How many of the Civic/Neon/Escort/Yugo drivers have actually maxed their cars out to the extent of the STS rules? Jason Tipple (Civic) has probably come closest, and maybe Mike O'Neill (Civic) and Will Kalman (Escort) on the West coast. Oh, look, those all happen to be virtually the [i]only[/i] competitive non-Subaru drivers!! Matt Guiver (Integra) put on a very good show at Wendover too, much better than he did last year. Steve Wynne (Neon) always did well too, though military obligations have kept him from competiting most of this year. Ross Atwell (Neon) and George Perinis, when George drove the Neon (he only drove the 200SX SE-R at two or three National events because it wasn't set up to the extent of the rules -- before the Neon, he ran Pat Griffith's "classic" Sentra SE-R in STR, and took the ProSolo championship in '99) did well against Richard West and Eric Kriemelmeyer too. Atwell's Neon was the first STS car I ever drove, so when I drove Kriemelmeyer's car, that's what I compared it too.... and the Subie was definitely lacking in some respects. It's like the variety in FS -- the third gen Camaros, the fourth gen Camaros (LT1 and LS1), the SN95 Cobras, the SN95 Cobras with IRS, the Bullitt Mustangs... they are all very different handling and power-wise, but they are all very competitive [i]when set up properly[/i].
And, yes, there are certainly some cars that are going to be at a disadvantage in STS, no matter what. I tend to think that Vince's Prelude is one of those. However, I tend to think that it wasn't Vince but another Honda-driving member of the STAC who started this proposal.... someone who bought a competitive car, changed the setup and now can't even run with the people the former owner ran with.
Eh. This has been an issue boiling within several people ever since Renee Eady spurned my handshake after the 2000 ProSolo Finale, telling me, "Yeah, well, my little Civic can't keep up with that Subaru." Yeah, lady, it was the [i]car[/i] that beat you. Whatever. :p
Karen
[i]if it's faster than me it must be illegal, even if it's my codriver[/i]
[B]Vince Bly told me this story:
He said George Perinis (sp?) drove his STS Prelude and got within 0.1 seconds of his 200SX SE-R back when he ran it. George then jumped into Richard West's 2.5RS and came up with a 1.0 second advantage over both cars on his 1st run. This is Solo II, not a ProSolo. [/B][/QUOTE]And the fact that Richard West has prepared his car to the extent of the rules while George's and Vince's car's are not (were not, in George's case, since he's sold the car) figures into this [i]how[/i]? (and yes, I know all three people in question [i]personally[/i], and have driven Richard's car before)
See, that's another issue that [i]has[/i] to be considered in a class that is far from "stock" -- how much of the perception that a car is an overdog is due to the fact that those cars happen to be better prepared than the others? How many of the Civic/Neon/Escort/Yugo drivers have actually maxed their cars out to the extent of the STS rules? Jason Tipple (Civic) has probably come closest, and maybe Mike O'Neill (Civic) and Will Kalman (Escort) on the West coast. Oh, look, those all happen to be virtually the [i]only[/i] competitive non-Subaru drivers!! Matt Guiver (Integra) put on a very good show at Wendover too, much better than he did last year. Steve Wynne (Neon) always did well too, though military obligations have kept him from competiting most of this year. Ross Atwell (Neon) and George Perinis, when George drove the Neon (he only drove the 200SX SE-R at two or three National events because it wasn't set up to the extent of the rules -- before the Neon, he ran Pat Griffith's "classic" Sentra SE-R in STR, and took the ProSolo championship in '99) did well against Richard West and Eric Kriemelmeyer too. Atwell's Neon was the first STS car I ever drove, so when I drove Kriemelmeyer's car, that's what I compared it too.... and the Subie was definitely lacking in some respects. It's like the variety in FS -- the third gen Camaros, the fourth gen Camaros (LT1 and LS1), the SN95 Cobras, the SN95 Cobras with IRS, the Bullitt Mustangs... they are all very different handling and power-wise, but they are all very competitive [i]when set up properly[/i].
And, yes, there are certainly some cars that are going to be at a disadvantage in STS, no matter what. I tend to think that Vince's Prelude is one of those. However, I tend to think that it wasn't Vince but another Honda-driving member of the STAC who started this proposal.... someone who bought a competitive car, changed the setup and now can't even run with the people the former owner ran with.
Eh. This has been an issue boiling within several people ever since Renee Eady spurned my handshake after the 2000 ProSolo Finale, telling me, "Yeah, well, my little Civic can't keep up with that Subaru." Yeah, lady, it was the [i]car[/i] that beat you. Whatever. :p
Karen
[i]if it's faster than me it must be illegal, even if it's my codriver[/i]
| Mean | 08-04-2002 04:03 PM |
I wonder if the question will become moot since, from what I've heard or read, West, Eric K., and even Vince are all going with different cars and/or classes next year. That would leave, at least in the DC region, Eric G. who, for now in his 2nd year, is not dominating at all. He has been beaten by both Vince and novice Burak in his Focus.
Mean, user of many commas, Gene
P.S. Everything will be fine as long as Karen and Pat stay out of STS. At least Pat doesn't want a Sube. I hope I don't start a fight...
Mean, user of many commas, Gene
P.S. Everything will be fine as long as Karen and Pat stay out of STS. At least Pat doesn't want a Sube. I hope I don't start a fight...
| CamaroFS34 | 08-04-2002 04:17 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mean [/i]
[B]I wonder if the question will become moot since, from what I've heard or read, West, Eric K., and even Vince are all going with different cars and/or classes next year. [/quote][/b]Well, I don't know about Richard and how serious he is about running the Mini he has allegedly ordered.... I guess it depends on [i]that[/i] particular classing fiasco! ;)
[quote][b]P.S. Everything will be fine as long as Karen and Pat stay out of STS. At least Pat doesn't want a Sube. I hope I don't start a fight... [/B][/QUOTE];) My brother is the one who owns an RS. :) Me? I'm just dabbling in STX this year, thanks to elgorey and KC. ;) As for Pat.... well, Pat's Pat, and he likes his truck and his Sentra, and unless we get a third gen Camaro (which is [i]very[/i] likely right now, [i]shhhhhhh[/i]), he's probably gonna stick with the roadracing. That is, he'll stick with it until he gets more "custom bodywork by Bavarian Motor Works....." (see [url]http://www.blackshirtracing.com[/url] for [i]that[/i] story since it's irrelevant to this conversation!). :)
Karen
[i]prepping my page[b]s[/b] long letter to the SEB....[/i]
[B]I wonder if the question will become moot since, from what I've heard or read, West, Eric K., and even Vince are all going with different cars and/or classes next year. [/quote][/b]Well, I don't know about Richard and how serious he is about running the Mini he has allegedly ordered.... I guess it depends on [i]that[/i] particular classing fiasco! ;)
[quote][b]P.S. Everything will be fine as long as Karen and Pat stay out of STS. At least Pat doesn't want a Sube. I hope I don't start a fight... [/B][/QUOTE];) My brother is the one who owns an RS. :) Me? I'm just dabbling in STX this year, thanks to elgorey and KC. ;) As for Pat.... well, Pat's Pat, and he likes his truck and his Sentra, and unless we get a third gen Camaro (which is [i]very[/i] likely right now, [i]shhhhhhh[/i]), he's probably gonna stick with the roadracing. That is, he'll stick with it until he gets more "custom bodywork by Bavarian Motor Works....." (see [url]http://www.blackshirtracing.com[/url] for [i]that[/i] story since it's irrelevant to this conversation!). :)
Karen
[i]prepping my page[b]s[/b] long letter to the SEB....[/i]
| iBlueVirus | 08-04-2002 04:35 PM |
am I the only one that race against these darn rsx-s? I am in STS with only rsb. These darn rsx-s are kicking my ass like there is no tomorrow (then again, they have bunch of mods too). If I move to STX I don't think it'll make much of a difference to me. Still get my behind kicked. :lol: Thinking about going back to GS or mod my car..... hmmmm... it's okay, I'll wait until rallyx events become once a month! :lol:
| EHK | 08-04-2002 08:06 PM |
Total BS
First of all, it was not even Richard West's Impreza. It was mine. It was in Harrisburg PA where Vince drives a lot. Apparently his memory is about as good as his driving has been. Dont get me wrong, Vince is a nice guy, but just like with Ron Conrad (both on the STAC), he has been driving like crap for a while, so it must be that the Subarus are tooooo faaaast (waaaaaa like Luke freakin Skywalker).When it came time for me to hop into Vinces car, well he wanted the last run for himself. It was not a fair comparison, the course favored my car, just like any other tight course with lots of loose pavement. If any of you have been to the Farm Show lot you would agree that untill there have been MANY runs taken on the SAME line its basically full of little pebbles. George did well in my car, he had driven it before and is typically fast right out of the box in any car because he has experience in many types of cars. George and I both agreed that Vince drove the Prelude like crap and that on that course the Prelude was a gutless VTEC that got power an instant before every brake zone (which Vince seemed to ignore anyway). Also it doesnt take a freaking ROCKET SCIENTIST to be fast in a Subaru. There, its an easy car to drive, I said it. You stand on it and it goes where you point it. It has torque (maybe not a lot according to Karen), and with decent tires it will pull serious g's with any aftermaket suspension. I recored over 1.1g sustained on Kumho's on concrete once (Oscoda sticky concrete), with 1.3g max, you would hate to know what it will pull the Falkens, and Im not going to tell. The real question is why should the RS be moved out of STS. Its not because its been proved to be the class overdog at all National Solo2 events. The numbers just arent there. I actually think its a good idea, only because I dont think that there should be the same model car being a top car in several classes. Read- MR2, Celica of old HS, ES days, and the Civic. They should class the top dog of a car model and then put all the lower level models in the same class, this is the SPORTS CAR Club of America we are talking about. Not the econo box grocery getter club of America. You dont like it, tough, buy the sporty version, or the hi-performance version and forget about trying to race some, sold to my Grandma version of the car. There are to many classes to begin with. Too many rules too. They need to open it up a little and quit custom tailoring the rules to allow the parts that are good for one type of car. The SCCA has been playing favorites for a long time, that wont change. But what will change is the membership. That's why we have the ST classes to begin with. The newest (potential) members dont want to deal with the complex rules of SP and defintly would not appreciate being bumped to Mod classes for adding a spoiler or body kit. They show up on street tires and dont want to get all greasy changing tires so they can show off their screamin VTEC monster to their girlfriend. It just back fired and you had a bunch of Subarus coming out (like any one would race a Subaru) and taking names. I dont think that was expected, nor was it a part of any plan. Well now there are people who race Subarus and do well. In case you didnt notice, the back of the SCCA rules state past Champions. Well there is not one single Subaru listed as a National Champion in Solo2. In fact there is only one Subaru listed AT ALL, and its Richard West wining the PRO SOLO STS Championship last year. They are specifically not to look at PRO RESULTS in classing SOLO2. Because there is an element of timing that makes the competition unfair to classing cars. The jump on the line makes it impossible to fairly judge one car from another. Not because the Subaru is AWD, because the driver has to time it just right to make any or loose time at the start. Its not fair to the car to judge based on PRO SOLO results. Ive been trying to ignore this post for so long, but since my name keeps getting mentioned I figured I might as well chime in. I even had to reregister for the I-club cuz I cant get a new password for my old username.
Move the RS to STX, Im sick of hearing all the freakin crybabies talking smack instead of going to an Evolution School and learning to drive. And believe me, they have been crying for YEARS! Just let us AWD cars with only one diff add another of any type. That would be fair playing with FWD/RWD with the abitily to add Quaifes. And if I sound angry, its because I AM.
Eric
in my Street Touring Subaru (like STS means anything else)
Move the RS to STX, Im sick of hearing all the freakin crybabies talking smack instead of going to an Evolution School and learning to drive. And believe me, they have been crying for YEARS! Just let us AWD cars with only one diff add another of any type. That would be fair playing with FWD/RWD with the abitily to add Quaifes. And if I sound angry, its because I AM.
Eric
in my Street Touring Subaru (like STS means anything else)
| Mean | 08-04-2002 10:26 PM |
WOW!!!!! Here's another Vince story. At last week's Z-Car AX at Rosecraft, he walked up to Eric Gallipo and said that there was no way he was going to catch him on this course. Eric had already run and Vince was running later. Vince pulled it off on his last run by 0.25 sec. It was just funny hearing him give the event away and then winning anyway. Of course Eric G. is no Eric K. (aka EHK).
So EHK, where have you been? We've been missing you in DC.
I will be at the next Evolution School I can find,
Novice Gene
(92 SE-R not fully prepped but a top third finisher nonetheless)
So EHK, where have you been? We've been missing you in DC.
I will be at the next Evolution School I can find,
Novice Gene
(92 SE-R not fully prepped but a top third finisher nonetheless)
| EHK | 08-04-2002 10:51 PM |
Well, Ive been fixing my gear box (among other things). 2nd gear was tore out at the Petersburg Pro. I will be at the Aug. 25th SCCA event. 314 is my number. Carman and I are getting in a little practice before Nationals.
I should make it to all the remaining Fed Ex field events.
Eric
I should make it to all the remaining Fed Ex field events.
Eric
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