| Mean | 08-25-2002 11:12 PM |
And today you broke a brake line and drove Vince's car. How ironic. Anyway, how was it as I wasn't there because my car broke.
G
G
| EHK | 08-29-2002 10:27 PM |
Ironic indeed, and I never said Vince was not my friend. Friends give Friends co-drives in times of need, buttheads give excuses and are no longer considered friends. BTW, the new goodrich lines have been reengineered to eliminate the problem I encountered this weekend. Arent you glad it burst in the Tech line and not in the second corner or up in the corner you cant see from grid, or maybe at the finish lights, or coming off the beltway, I know I am.
Vinces car is completely capable, but it lacks the torque of the Subaru. That is the big difference. I had no problems with wheel slip after the launch, I enjoyed the rev limit as it was all second gear in his car, but driving Eric G's car required two shifts to third. The difference between the times the subaru could run and the times I set in Vinces car are in pulling out of the turns. There is a case for shifting to first, but that would result in wheel slip, and also likely destroy the entrance to the next turn. His car handles very well, and it is FAST! There is no way that the Subaru's AWD alone makes the difference in times, it is all torque. Autocross cars always perform better with great lo-end torque numbers. Its not like on a road course where there is lots of space between corners that alow a hi-end horsepower car to pull away. Its all the pulling power out of the turns. So in short, Vince's car is awesome, but it needs more torque to be competitive against anything with torque, not just the Subaru. There are plenty of cars with better torque to weight ratio's in STS. Vince did not beat my times, I think I ended up about 1/2 second in front of him with only 3 runs to his four. After three it was more like a second. So I think what I said about his driving is true, he is not getting all that his car has to offer out of it. I have only ever raced one other FWD car, for one lap, at the event we were talking about before in Harrisburg, two years ago. So if you take the times I ran, subtract some time for the Scooby Power you come up with the types of margins we have seen over the last few years. Its not rocket science, although he is a Rocket Scientist! Vince is an all around good guy, he is just very talkative. I am the type of person that tries to get along with everyone, but I sometimes I have to tell it like it is.
There are people in FWD cars complaining that they cant beat the Subarus because of this imagined AWD advantage, when what they really need to do is visualize winning and quit complaining. Take for instance Jason Tipple. His car had squat development time, didnt even really run that good (all by his own admission) and he was able to pull out times to win the National Championship last year and back it up with victories this year. At the same time there are people in the same type of car that for the last three years have done nothing but complain. When we tried to point out that braking in the fastest turn of the course was the wrong thing to do at the Peru NT last year, to one nameless STAC member, there were lame excuses of a faulty wire or a foot resting on the pedal, when we could clearly hear the engine straining from the application of the brakes. But when it was all over, there was no "good race, you really out drove me" it was, " my little car just cant keep up with those Subaru's". Well it wont keep up with anybody who drives better either, not even in the same car. Tipple has proved this point. The STAC is stacked with anti-scooby drivers, who really want a FWD no LSD playground. I say give it to them, just give us the same LSD options available to all other cars in STX. On most courses the RS with a Quaiffe will be just as competive as the WRX, but without the Torque Biasing LSD neither stand a chance against a well prepared TypeR or civic or any other lightweight FWD or power stacked RWD car with the TBLSD. Pay attention to STX at Nationals this year, you will see just how competitive the RS will be against the rest of STX. Its like the new ads say, "When you get it, you get it", or like the old Wash. Post ads, "If you dont get it, you dont get it". Infact, you may be able to tune in to it through the Peavey website. In the past they have done webcasts.
Eric
Vinces car is completely capable, but it lacks the torque of the Subaru. That is the big difference. I had no problems with wheel slip after the launch, I enjoyed the rev limit as it was all second gear in his car, but driving Eric G's car required two shifts to third. The difference between the times the subaru could run and the times I set in Vinces car are in pulling out of the turns. There is a case for shifting to first, but that would result in wheel slip, and also likely destroy the entrance to the next turn. His car handles very well, and it is FAST! There is no way that the Subaru's AWD alone makes the difference in times, it is all torque. Autocross cars always perform better with great lo-end torque numbers. Its not like on a road course where there is lots of space between corners that alow a hi-end horsepower car to pull away. Its all the pulling power out of the turns. So in short, Vince's car is awesome, but it needs more torque to be competitive against anything with torque, not just the Subaru. There are plenty of cars with better torque to weight ratio's in STS. Vince did not beat my times, I think I ended up about 1/2 second in front of him with only 3 runs to his four. After three it was more like a second. So I think what I said about his driving is true, he is not getting all that his car has to offer out of it. I have only ever raced one other FWD car, for one lap, at the event we were talking about before in Harrisburg, two years ago. So if you take the times I ran, subtract some time for the Scooby Power you come up with the types of margins we have seen over the last few years. Its not rocket science, although he is a Rocket Scientist! Vince is an all around good guy, he is just very talkative. I am the type of person that tries to get along with everyone, but I sometimes I have to tell it like it is.
There are people in FWD cars complaining that they cant beat the Subarus because of this imagined AWD advantage, when what they really need to do is visualize winning and quit complaining. Take for instance Jason Tipple. His car had squat development time, didnt even really run that good (all by his own admission) and he was able to pull out times to win the National Championship last year and back it up with victories this year. At the same time there are people in the same type of car that for the last three years have done nothing but complain. When we tried to point out that braking in the fastest turn of the course was the wrong thing to do at the Peru NT last year, to one nameless STAC member, there were lame excuses of a faulty wire or a foot resting on the pedal, when we could clearly hear the engine straining from the application of the brakes. But when it was all over, there was no "good race, you really out drove me" it was, " my little car just cant keep up with those Subaru's". Well it wont keep up with anybody who drives better either, not even in the same car. Tipple has proved this point. The STAC is stacked with anti-scooby drivers, who really want a FWD no LSD playground. I say give it to them, just give us the same LSD options available to all other cars in STX. On most courses the RS with a Quaiffe will be just as competive as the WRX, but without the Torque Biasing LSD neither stand a chance against a well prepared TypeR or civic or any other lightweight FWD or power stacked RWD car with the TBLSD. Pay attention to STX at Nationals this year, you will see just how competitive the RS will be against the rest of STX. Its like the new ads say, "When you get it, you get it", or like the old Wash. Post ads, "If you dont get it, you dont get it". Infact, you may be able to tune in to it through the Peavey website. In the past they have done webcasts.
Eric
| trhoppe | 08-29-2002 11:27 PM |
[QUOTE]Pay attention to STX at Nationals this year, you will see just how competitive the RS will be against the rest of STX[/QUOTE] I don't think that is true this year. There will not be a fully STX prepped WRX out in STX at the National Championship. At least not one with development time.
What might happen is the RS might beat the WRXs and people will say "ooh we told you they are fast, they should be in stx because they beat up on WRXs!" Well it won't be a fair fight.
-Tom
What might happen is the RS might beat the WRXs and people will say "ooh we told you they are fast, they should be in stx because they beat up on WRXs!" Well it won't be a fair fight.
-Tom
| KC | 08-30-2002 07:57 AM |
[QUOTE]What might happen is the RS might beat the WRXs and people will say "ooh we told you they are fast, they should be in stx because they beat up on WRXs!" Well it won't be a fair fight.[/QUOTE] I agree. A good showing of a 2.5RS in STX will be the death blow to them being in STS.
Then they come to STX next year. And the WRX becomes more developed. The 2.5 RS will now be obsolete. I wonder if someone who has given imput to the STAC about the move send in an addendum for a suggestion about the move?
Add in a line stating, if the 2.5 RS is shown not to be competitive in STX for the period of one year, they will be moved BACK to STS.
It's going to be interesting at nationals for sure as I'm driving around with a BIG HUGE target on by back. :D
Hmm, maybe I'll do up some vinyl for the hatch window of a Bulls-eye target. Good idea? ;)
Autocross does come down to drivers and how well the driver drives a well prepped or marginally prepped car. There's no agruing that. A newbie cannot just hop in Tipples Civic or Wests RS and run trophy winning times.
You have to look at the driver for that, and the expereince.
--kC
Then they come to STX next year. And the WRX becomes more developed. The 2.5 RS will now be obsolete. I wonder if someone who has given imput to the STAC about the move send in an addendum for a suggestion about the move?
Add in a line stating, if the 2.5 RS is shown not to be competitive in STX for the period of one year, they will be moved BACK to STS.
It's going to be interesting at nationals for sure as I'm driving around with a BIG HUGE target on by back. :D
Hmm, maybe I'll do up some vinyl for the hatch window of a Bulls-eye target. Good idea? ;)
Autocross does come down to drivers and how well the driver drives a well prepped or marginally prepped car. There's no agruing that. A newbie cannot just hop in Tipples Civic or Wests RS and run trophy winning times.
You have to look at the driver for that, and the expereince.
--kC
| Gary (gg) | 08-30-2002 11:20 PM |
I have spent too much time developing the RS for STS and can't sell it for what's been done to it. My option would be to compete locally and not bother with National level events in 2004. This would lead to why bother renewing my membership. I agree with Eric that the STX rules for AWD hurts those cars in not allowing us to add a Torsen LSD. We're already carrying extra weight for being AWD.
Politically, there are people in the SCCA that are running STX to make it a viable class at the national level events.
Politically, there are people in the SCCA that are running STX to make it a viable class at the national level events.
| zzyzx | 09-01-2002 01:33 AM |
Gary and Eric are right, it's just petty SCCA politics. This is what plagues the SCCA and turns a lot of people off to the organization. It's bad business. There is no data to back-up moving the RS to STX at all. Of course, facts are meaningless when you didn't rely on them in the first place...
KC - So, knowing you, should I expect to see a wagon with a bullseye on it soon? ;)
- Steve
KC - So, knowing you, should I expect to see a wagon with a bullseye on it soon? ;)
- Steve
| EHK | 09-01-2002 08:31 AM |
[QUOTE]I don't think that is true this year. There will not be a fully STX prepped WRX out in STX at the National Championship. At least not one with development
time.[/QUOTE]
This is not true. There will be lots of cars out there that are 'fully prepped' and with lots of development time. Really, fully prepped for STX means diff (fwd/rwd), suspension, and intake/exhaust. Most of the rest of the rules are foofoo appearence that dont have any real bearing on the performance in Solo2. How much is enough? After 9 months I would argue that there has been plenty of time for it, and since several of the cars have already been autocross cars in other classes, the drivers need only to adjust to the lower grip of street tires. Many of the WRX drivers have been experienced in autocrossing other STS cars, RS's and Neons and so on and so forth. It shouldnt take 2 years for someone to put the parts on a car and then learn to drive it. These people already know how to drive, and given an event or two, maybe a warm-up clinic, can adjust their driving to get the most of the car at that time. This year is a fair race at Nationals, that was not true at Ft. Meyers, or some of the other early Tour events, but since then anyone who was interested in STX has had the opportunity to develop and learn to drive any STX car. Like I said, most of them are not new to ST, and certainly not new to Solo2. BTW, the person I think you should pay attention to in STX has only ever driven an AWD ST autocross car once before, in heavy rain. So the arguement about development time is more in his favor then any other STX driver that I know of.
Eric
time.[/QUOTE]
This is not true. There will be lots of cars out there that are 'fully prepped' and with lots of development time. Really, fully prepped for STX means diff (fwd/rwd), suspension, and intake/exhaust. Most of the rest of the rules are foofoo appearence that dont have any real bearing on the performance in Solo2. How much is enough? After 9 months I would argue that there has been plenty of time for it, and since several of the cars have already been autocross cars in other classes, the drivers need only to adjust to the lower grip of street tires. Many of the WRX drivers have been experienced in autocrossing other STS cars, RS's and Neons and so on and so forth. It shouldnt take 2 years for someone to put the parts on a car and then learn to drive it. These people already know how to drive, and given an event or two, maybe a warm-up clinic, can adjust their driving to get the most of the car at that time. This year is a fair race at Nationals, that was not true at Ft. Meyers, or some of the other early Tour events, but since then anyone who was interested in STX has had the opportunity to develop and learn to drive any STX car. Like I said, most of them are not new to ST, and certainly not new to Solo2. BTW, the person I think you should pay attention to in STX has only ever driven an AWD ST autocross car once before, in heavy rain. So the arguement about development time is more in his favor then any other STX driver that I know of.
Eric
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