| Watkinsm3 | 06-25-2004 02:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by subrew2[/i]
[B] I won't have access to a full-on laser style alignment machine, but I will be stringing my car up tomorrow. I'm installing my new Tein Flex setup on the '04 STi, and wanted to measure the camber change throughout the range of suspension travel. I've done this before on my Yugo (no jokes please) and more recently on my CSP Fiat 124 Spider.
I'll try to get it all collected and posted by Monday.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Sweet! Every little bit helps! It'll be interesting to see how your data stacks up against mine. (I'm not going to an event tomorrow so I'll be busy tomorrow indeed!)
-Matt
BTW... Chris, I'm not sure I'll have any take off tires available until I switch to Hoosiers. I just run the victoracers to cord since they don't have as horrible fall off as the hoosiers.
[B] I won't have access to a full-on laser style alignment machine, but I will be stringing my car up tomorrow. I'm installing my new Tein Flex setup on the '04 STi, and wanted to measure the camber change throughout the range of suspension travel. I've done this before on my Yugo (no jokes please) and more recently on my CSP Fiat 124 Spider.
I'll try to get it all collected and posted by Monday.
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Sweet! Every little bit helps! It'll be interesting to see how your data stacks up against mine. (I'm not going to an event tomorrow so I'll be busy tomorrow indeed!)
-Matt
BTW... Chris, I'm not sure I'll have any take off tires available until I switch to Hoosiers. I just run the victoracers to cord since they don't have as horrible fall off as the hoosiers.
| Scooby Freak | 06-25-2004 02:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Watkinsm3[/i]
[B] I'm not going to an event tomorrow [/B][/QUOTE]
What do you mean? You're preregistered for the Holbert.
-jeff
[B] I'm not going to an event tomorrow [/B][/QUOTE]
What do you mean? You're preregistered for the Holbert.
-jeff
| Watkinsm3 | 06-25-2004 03:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Scooby Freak[/i]
[B] What do you mean? You're preregistered for the Holbert.
-jeff [/B][/QUOTE]
:eek: Damn spies are EVERYWHERE! :D
Fine... I'll break out the beer and do the measurements tonight! I was just trying to be a cheap bastard 'cause all da dough I spent for my friends Bachelor party & at his wedding over the past two weeks... A Hotel costs money and driving up and back for sunday costs about as much in gas and tolls as a hotel. :Sigh:
Though the Holbert trophy will look mighty fine sitting on my fireplace mantle...
----------------------------------------------------
Back on topic now!!!! :devil:
So I was thinking... we've been really focused on what the front is doing (and are actually at an impass till I take some measurements). I entered some alignment values (from my car) and ran the same tests front AND rear. Interestingly Toe up front remained unchanged. The rear though... OH THE REAR! It was a changin'!
Same characteristics as before.
Toe zeroed in the rear (just like my car is).
____________ toein
100.00 bump 3.33
_80.00 bump 1.77
_60.00 bump 0.83
_40.00 bump 0.31
_20.00 bump 0.07
_Static Bump 0.00
_20.00 droop 0.03
_40.00 droop 0.11
_60.00 droop 0.17
_80.00 droop 0.19
100.00 droop 0.14
_________ toein
0.00 roll 0.07
1.00 roll 0.18
2.00 roll 0.38
3.00 roll 0.68
4.00 roll 1.12
5.00 roll 1.72
6.00 roll 2.53
7.00 roll 3.61
8.00 roll 5.00
VERY interesting results!!!
I'm actually unsure if this is degrees or mms but looking at this? I might have to retract my zero toe in the rear statement. Looks like ANY rear suspension movement from stock will dial in some toe-in and at times it looks like ALOT. Just thought I'd share. Again... I can't express enough that this just a generic subaru template that I modified a bit and actually components may vary and effect the results.
-Matt
[B] What do you mean? You're preregistered for the Holbert.
-jeff [/B][/QUOTE]
:eek: Damn spies are EVERYWHERE! :D
Fine... I'll break out the beer and do the measurements tonight! I was just trying to be a cheap bastard 'cause all da dough I spent for my friends Bachelor party & at his wedding over the past two weeks... A Hotel costs money and driving up and back for sunday costs about as much in gas and tolls as a hotel. :Sigh:
Though the Holbert trophy will look mighty fine sitting on my fireplace mantle...
----------------------------------------------------
Back on topic now!!!! :devil:
So I was thinking... we've been really focused on what the front is doing (and are actually at an impass till I take some measurements). I entered some alignment values (from my car) and ran the same tests front AND rear. Interestingly Toe up front remained unchanged. The rear though... OH THE REAR! It was a changin'!
Same characteristics as before.
Toe zeroed in the rear (just like my car is).
____________ toein
100.00 bump 3.33
_80.00 bump 1.77
_60.00 bump 0.83
_40.00 bump 0.31
_20.00 bump 0.07
_Static Bump 0.00
_20.00 droop 0.03
_40.00 droop 0.11
_60.00 droop 0.17
_80.00 droop 0.19
100.00 droop 0.14
_________ toein
0.00 roll 0.07
1.00 roll 0.18
2.00 roll 0.38
3.00 roll 0.68
4.00 roll 1.12
5.00 roll 1.72
6.00 roll 2.53
7.00 roll 3.61
8.00 roll 5.00
VERY interesting results!!!
I'm actually unsure if this is degrees or mms but looking at this? I might have to retract my zero toe in the rear statement. Looks like ANY rear suspension movement from stock will dial in some toe-in and at times it looks like ALOT. Just thought I'd share. Again... I can't express enough that this just a generic subaru template that I modified a bit and actually components may vary and effect the results.
-Matt
| Midnight_Gold | 06-26-2004 08:53 AM |
hmmm.......
Might explain why the car just feels that damn good with some toe out ;)
-Tom
edit: logged in as miranda
Might explain why the car just feels that damn good with some toe out ;)
-Tom
edit: logged in as miranda
| nhluhr | 06-27-2004 01:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly[/i]
[B] Tom,
So the important number to watch in those calculations is what you have in bold there? [/B][/QUOTE]
a tire ALWAYS has the best lateral grip when it is at 0 camber. Therefore, you set up your roll stiffness to minimize roll and camber loss, then set static camber so that at full cornering load you end up with 0 camber at the outside tires.
translation: big ass swaybar and an alignment.
All things held equal, more roll stiffness will result in less grip on the tires. The catch is that "all things held equal" bit which includes tire alignment. When you add in the difference in camber changes due to more roll stiffness, you see that the benfit of max grip (from 0 camber during full cornering load) outweighs the loss of grip due to more weight transfer and tire loading (which results from higher roll stiffness).
great thread, by the way. where can I get a copy of susprog3d or Rollcenter ?
[B] Tom,
So the important number to watch in those calculations is what you have in bold there? [/B][/QUOTE]
a tire ALWAYS has the best lateral grip when it is at 0 camber. Therefore, you set up your roll stiffness to minimize roll and camber loss, then set static camber so that at full cornering load you end up with 0 camber at the outside tires.
translation: big ass swaybar and an alignment.
All things held equal, more roll stiffness will result in less grip on the tires. The catch is that "all things held equal" bit which includes tire alignment. When you add in the difference in camber changes due to more roll stiffness, you see that the benfit of max grip (from 0 camber during full cornering load) outweighs the loss of grip due to more weight transfer and tire loading (which results from higher roll stiffness).
great thread, by the way. where can I get a copy of susprog3d or Rollcenter ?
| DrBiggly | 06-27-2004 11:03 AM |
I was just asking that because his columns didn't line up at all. I realized it later after studying it and then looking at what he was talking about. At first look though, a set of numbers with column headings all skewed off makes for a confusing interpretation. :)
| makofoto | 06-27-2004 03:16 PM |
STI Front sway bar test with data:
[url]http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm[/url]
| AlpineFD | 06-28-2004 05:54 AM |
what units are the droop/bump and roll in? Also how do you measure that in your car in real time?
| subrew2 | 06-28-2004 08:18 AM |
I never got a chance to measure the camber change. Was in too much of a hurry to drive the car after installing the cusco bars and Tein Flex setup :)
Maybe one of these nights after work.
Chris H.
Maybe one of these nights after work.
Chris H.
| robmarch | 06-28-2004 05:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Watkinsm3 [/i]
[B]:eek: Damn spies are EVERYWHERE! :D
Fine... I'll break out the beer and do the measurements tonight! I was just trying to be a cheap bastard 'cause all da dough I spent for my friends Bachelor party & at his wedding over the past two weeks... A Hotel costs money and driving up and back for sunday costs about as much in gas and tolls as a hotel. :Sigh:
Though the Holbert trophy will look mighty fine sitting on my fireplace mantle...
[/B][/QUOTE]
did I miss you at the hobart?
[B]:eek: Damn spies are EVERYWHERE! :D
Fine... I'll break out the beer and do the measurements tonight! I was just trying to be a cheap bastard 'cause all da dough I spent for my friends Bachelor party & at his wedding over the past two weeks... A Hotel costs money and driving up and back for sunday costs about as much in gas and tolls as a hotel. :Sigh:
Though the Holbert trophy will look mighty fine sitting on my fireplace mantle...
[/B][/QUOTE]
did I miss you at the hobart?
| Watkinsm3 | 06-28-2004 05:57 PM |
Nah... I had to bail. Tons of stuff to do (non-car related! :() on saturday. Plus I was bed ridden most of sunday with a BRUTAL hangover. :devil:
Rough weekend.
Rough weekend.
| AUTOwrXER | 06-29-2004 09:35 PM |
This is great stuff since the last time I had a chance to look it over. One important thing to consider is that there is some steering angle with any amount of body roll. Because the STi has good caster, the steering angle should improve the camber situation. Is there a way to dial in steering angle for each roll position? This will tell us the difference between the best autocross alignment and the best road-race alignment. Road racers will have more body roll with less steering angle in the fast corners, whereas we often have VERY tight turns which are also taken at the limit of adhesion.
Joel
Joel
| AUTOwrXER | 06-29-2004 09:38 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by makofoto[/i]
[B] STI Front sway bar test with data:
[url]http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Good stuff. I'd like to see results with a BIG sway bar and all sizes in between to see when big is too big. At some point the car will begin to loose grip.
What did you use to generate the G plots? Is this the Geez cube?
Joel
[B] STI Front sway bar test with data:
[url]http://www.selgp.com/sti_modifications.htm[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Good stuff. I'd like to see results with a BIG sway bar and all sizes in between to see when big is too big. At some point the car will begin to loose grip.
What did you use to generate the G plots? Is this the Geez cube?
Joel
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