| infantsam | 04-05-2006 04:39 PM |
To some extent yes. But primarily I posted because recommending brake products for racing or track days etc is far different than rating downpipes or something like that. And our readers don't always read carefully - and I'd feel remiss if something happened as a result of that. I'm not suggesting disclaimers or any such thing - I hate lawyers like everyone else (but wished I knew a good one :) - but I myself am a newb and it is very difficult to sift through the threads etc. and know what to do. I further apologize for being overly anal and thank joel1.8 and tube driver for more precise information. Not 100% data - but much closer.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-05-2006 04:53 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=infantsam]I hate lawyers like everyone else (but wished I knew a good one :)[/QUOTE]
Trying to make friends here, eh? I'm an inactive member of the California Bar (ie, I'm a lawyer). :devil: :alien: :lol:
Hahaha...
Joel
[QUOTE=infantsam]I hate lawyers like everyone else (but wished I knew a good one :)[/QUOTE]
Trying to make friends here, eh? I'm an inactive member of the California Bar (ie, I'm a lawyer). :devil: :alien: :lol:
Hahaha...
Joel
| TubeDriver | 04-05-2006 05:04 PM |
No apology needed. :) One thing that I have found is that there is no need to reinvent the wheel. I mean that if you talk to folks who actually race cars (or who have been driving HPDEs for years) they usually have a pretty good sense of what works and what does not. This is what originally got me to try Synpower. Anyone who knows me will testify that I am completely anal about how I prep my vehicles. I would have never tried a low cost brake fluid unless people with a LOT of actual track and/race experience recommended it. If a product gets nothing but good reviews (from people who have actually used it) it *probably* works well. Plus the fact that I have personally used the product and have no complaints.
IMHO, if you boil fresh Synpower fluid at the track, you would *probably* have boiled almost any of the designer fluids as well and in this rare situation (lots of H.P., race slicks, racing on a demanding track) you will need a true BBK to handle the increased thermal loads.
But in general, I agree with you that the brake system (fluid, pads, rotors, bias etc) is the absolutely last place to save money. Spend what it takes to stay safe, if you want to save money buy a cheap battery and air fresheners.
[QUOTE=infantsam]To some extent yes. But primarily I posted because recommending brake products for racing or track days etc is far different than rating downpipes or something like that. And our readers don't always read carefully - and I'd feel remiss if something happened as a result of that. I'm not suggesting disclaimers or any such thing - I hate lawyers like everyone else (but wished I knew a good one :) - but I myself am a newb and it is very difficult to sift through the threads etc. and know what to do. I further apologize for being overly anal and thank joel1.8 and tube driver for more precise information. Not 100% data - but much closer.[/QUOTE]
IMHO, if you boil fresh Synpower fluid at the track, you would *probably* have boiled almost any of the designer fluids as well and in this rare situation (lots of H.P., race slicks, racing on a demanding track) you will need a true BBK to handle the increased thermal loads.
But in general, I agree with you that the brake system (fluid, pads, rotors, bias etc) is the absolutely last place to save money. Spend what it takes to stay safe, if you want to save money buy a cheap battery and air fresheners.
[QUOTE=infantsam]To some extent yes. But primarily I posted because recommending brake products for racing or track days etc is far different than rating downpipes or something like that. And our readers don't always read carefully - and I'd feel remiss if something happened as a result of that. I'm not suggesting disclaimers or any such thing - I hate lawyers like everyone else (but wished I knew a good one :) - but I myself am a newb and it is very difficult to sift through the threads etc. and know what to do. I further apologize for being overly anal and thank joel1.8 and tube driver for more precise information. Not 100% data - but much closer.[/QUOTE]
| infantsam | 04-05-2006 05:14 PM |
mmmm ....foot
well at least I said I wanted to know a good one - hopefully now I sorta do ;)
on with the data and temperature properties - that's what the thread is for unless we just all now agree that fresh synpower is as good as it gets.
What if anything might be an example where something else is desirable - enduro's, rally, - how 'bout showroom stock where BBK's aren't allowed and mega friction pads eat the rotors in a session and temperatures must be sky high? (run-on - blech)
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Hello,
Trying to make friends here, eh? I'm an inactive member of the California Bar (ie, I'm a lawyer). :devil: :alien: :lol:
Hahaha...
Joel[/QUOTE]
well at least I said I wanted to know a good one - hopefully now I sorta do ;)
on with the data and temperature properties - that's what the thread is for unless we just all now agree that fresh synpower is as good as it gets.
What if anything might be an example where something else is desirable - enduro's, rally, - how 'bout showroom stock where BBK's aren't allowed and mega friction pads eat the rotors in a session and temperatures must be sky high? (run-on - blech)
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Hello,
Trying to make friends here, eh? I'm an inactive member of the California Bar (ie, I'm a lawyer). :devil: :alien: :lol:
Hahaha...
Joel[/QUOTE]
| ChrisDP | 04-05-2006 05:19 PM |
<---boiled ATE on track in two cars. Didn't boil Motul in either. Haven't boiled HD in my other car.
FWIW, I think the OP was asking more specifically about "street" fluids... and frankly, you have problems if you are driving in such a manner to boil Valvoline on the street.
FWIW, I think the OP was asking more specifically about "street" fluids... and frankly, you have problems if you are driving in such a manner to boil Valvoline on the street.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 04-05-2006 05:33 PM |
Hello,
When TeamSMR first started racing in the USTCC in 2001, we were required to run the stock WRX brakes. We ran them with aggressive PFC pads (on Hoosier race tires) with brake ducting and bilge fans to keep the brakes cool. Despite that, we generated so much heat that, even though we never faded the brakes (yes, stock brakes on a WRX are fade-free with the right pads, even in hard core racing), we did melt the plastic bearing retainers, the rubber ball joint cover on the tie-rod, etc.
Since we were melting everything, we did use SRF, and since we regularly melted the seals in the calipers (brake fluid leaking out sometimes), I'm guessing we got humidity contamination in the braking system. So it was probably good to have the SRF in there. We bled / flushed the SRF regularly since we constantly had to rebuild brakes and hubs.
That all went away with the StopTech brakes, though by then, we'd already sold our first borns for SRF, so we stuck with SRF and stopped flushing it and just bled-checked for air every weekend.
As someone else pointed out, the difference between SynPower (dry, 513 degrees), Motul 600 (585 degrees), and SRF (dry 590 degrees) is not huge. The difference comes when the fluid is old and moist - 333, 421, 518 respectively. If you know your fluid is going to get moist, then go for the better stuff. If you'll bleed / flush the brakes any time they might get moist... who cares what the wet temps are? If you get into a situation where you faded your pads to nothing, flush the brake fluid when you get home - you possibly boiled or contaminated your fluids.
Joel
When TeamSMR first started racing in the USTCC in 2001, we were required to run the stock WRX brakes. We ran them with aggressive PFC pads (on Hoosier race tires) with brake ducting and bilge fans to keep the brakes cool. Despite that, we generated so much heat that, even though we never faded the brakes (yes, stock brakes on a WRX are fade-free with the right pads, even in hard core racing), we did melt the plastic bearing retainers, the rubber ball joint cover on the tie-rod, etc.
Since we were melting everything, we did use SRF, and since we regularly melted the seals in the calipers (brake fluid leaking out sometimes), I'm guessing we got humidity contamination in the braking system. So it was probably good to have the SRF in there. We bled / flushed the SRF regularly since we constantly had to rebuild brakes and hubs.
That all went away with the StopTech brakes, though by then, we'd already sold our first borns for SRF, so we stuck with SRF and stopped flushing it and just bled-checked for air every weekend.
As someone else pointed out, the difference between SynPower (dry, 513 degrees), Motul 600 (585 degrees), and SRF (dry 590 degrees) is not huge. The difference comes when the fluid is old and moist - 333, 421, 518 respectively. If you know your fluid is going to get moist, then go for the better stuff. If you'll bleed / flush the brakes any time they might get moist... who cares what the wet temps are? If you get into a situation where you faded your pads to nothing, flush the brake fluid when you get home - you possibly boiled or contaminated your fluids.
Joel
| west_minist | 04-05-2006 05:44 PM |
I have use Motul and it works very good , even to point of rotors semi glowing w/ 2 pot front calipers with no brake fade.
I changed my fluid after a year and couple of months and it still looks good.
W/ these synthetic fluids, there last way longer than the stock.
I changed my fluid after a year and couple of months and it still looks good.
W/ these synthetic fluids, there last way longer than the stock.
| Unabomber | 04-05-2006 06:23 PM |
This post is about "street fluids" but while you track whores bicker, I glean information. :lol:
Thanks to 8 for keying me into his "Brake Fluid FAQ" :) Looks like my work has been cut by like 90%.
Thanks to 8 for keying me into his "Brake Fluid FAQ" :) Looks like my work has been cut by like 90%.
| UkNuck | 04-05-2006 07:12 PM |
One interesting factoid that I didn't appreciate until recently is that the DOT test procedure for wet boiling point (officially 'wet equilibrium reflux boiling point' or 'wet ERBP') refers to the water content (3.70�0.05 percent by weight) of a reference sample that has been exposed to the same humidification as the sample under test. So it takes out (or at least attempts to) any difference in hygroscopicity - up to a point it should not matter if a fluid with a higher wet boiling point is also more hygroscopic because its wet BP is evaluated at the correspondingly higher water %age (although beyond that %age its BP will presumably drop faster than the reference).
[url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP-116-04.pdf[/url] - see section 6.2.5
<--- not a brake fluid pro / track ho but I know Ron likes the geeky stuff :D
[url]http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/staticfiles/DOT/NHTSA/Vehicle%20Safety/Test%20Procedures/Associated%20Files/TP-116-04.pdf[/url] - see section 6.2.5
<--- not a brake fluid pro / track ho but I know Ron likes the geeky stuff :D
| Unabomber | 04-05-2006 07:30 PM |
Nice geek factor! 3% is what I found in my research so far. Here's today's trivia question for your track whores though.....
If you had a moisture meter/brake fluid tester, at what % would you swap out your fluid? 1%? 2%? 3%? 3.70�0.05?
If you had a moisture meter/brake fluid tester, at what % would you swap out your fluid? 1%? 2%? 3%? 3.70�0.05?
| spazegun2213 | 04-05-2006 08:01 PM |
Guys,
if you want streetable info, you should also consider telling people
1) what the boiling points mean (3% water is considered wet is what i have found)
2) the difference between fluids in metal vs plastic bottles
and simple stuff like that.
just a thought ;)
-Spaze
if you want streetable info, you should also consider telling people
1) what the boiling points mean (3% water is considered wet is what i have found)
2) the difference between fluids in metal vs plastic bottles
and simple stuff like that.
just a thought ;)
-Spaze
| WRX 2002 | 04-05-2006 08:02 PM |
1%...
| MaxSTi05 | 04-05-2006 08:04 PM |
Brembos?
�
�
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]Hello,
When TeamSMR first started racing in the USTCC in 2001, we were required to run the stock WRX brakes. We ran them with aggressive PFC pads (on Hoosier race tires) with brake ducting and bilge fans to keep the brakes cool. Despite that, we generated so much heat that, even though we never faded the brakes (yes, stock brakes on a WRX are fade-free with the right pads, even in hard core racing), we did melt the plastic bearing retainers, the rubber ball joint cover on the tie-rod, etc.
Since we were melting everything, we did use SRF, and since we regularly melted the seals in the calipers (brake fluid leaking out sometimes), I'm guessing we got humidity contamination in the braking system. So it was probably good to have the SRF in there. We bled / flushed the SRF regularly since we constantly had to rebuild brakes and hubs.
That all went away with the StopTech brakes, though by then, we'd already sold our first borns for SRF, so we stuck with SRF and stopped flushing it and just bled-checked for air every weekend.
As someone else pointed out, the difference between SynPower (dry, 513 degrees), Motul 600 (585 degrees), and SRF (dry 590 degrees) is not huge. The difference comes when the fluid is old and moist - 333, 421, 518 respectively. If you know your fluid is going to get moist, then go for the better stuff. If you'll bleed / flush the brakes any time they might get moist... who cares what the wet temps are? If you get into a situation where you faded your pads to nothing, flush the brake fluid when you get home - you possibly boiled or contaminated your fluids.
Joel[/QUOTE]
Good feedback on actual 'Motorsport' application (this post category). But I would like comments on the STi Brembos as far as track problems with brake fade, modulation, temperature, etc. using the fluids stated above (non-stock). I'm planning on starting with Hawk HP+ on the std rotors for HPDE.
When TeamSMR first started racing in the USTCC in 2001, we were required to run the stock WRX brakes. We ran them with aggressive PFC pads (on Hoosier race tires) with brake ducting and bilge fans to keep the brakes cool. Despite that, we generated so much heat that, even though we never faded the brakes (yes, stock brakes on a WRX are fade-free with the right pads, even in hard core racing), we did melt the plastic bearing retainers, the rubber ball joint cover on the tie-rod, etc.
Since we were melting everything, we did use SRF, and since we regularly melted the seals in the calipers (brake fluid leaking out sometimes), I'm guessing we got humidity contamination in the braking system. So it was probably good to have the SRF in there. We bled / flushed the SRF regularly since we constantly had to rebuild brakes and hubs.
That all went away with the StopTech brakes, though by then, we'd already sold our first borns for SRF, so we stuck with SRF and stopped flushing it and just bled-checked for air every weekend.
As someone else pointed out, the difference between SynPower (dry, 513 degrees), Motul 600 (585 degrees), and SRF (dry 590 degrees) is not huge. The difference comes when the fluid is old and moist - 333, 421, 518 respectively. If you know your fluid is going to get moist, then go for the better stuff. If you'll bleed / flush the brakes any time they might get moist... who cares what the wet temps are? If you get into a situation where you faded your pads to nothing, flush the brake fluid when you get home - you possibly boiled or contaminated your fluids.
Joel[/QUOTE]
Good feedback on actual 'Motorsport' application (this post category). But I would like comments on the STi Brembos as far as track problems with brake fade, modulation, temperature, etc. using the fluids stated above (non-stock). I'm planning on starting with Hawk HP+ on the std rotors for HPDE.
| adhowe70 | 04-05-2006 10:11 PM |
Any spirited on track driving should be considered a "Motorsport" application. Its not worth looking at it differently. Choose a fluid based on your expected driving habits and then feel out whether that choice is working for you.
I boiled my brakes in my very first track session... I finished the session and drove 2 more with essentially no brakes. No issues after the first boiling... and that didn't even result in going "off". And no, I wasn't terribly slow with no brakes.
Bottom line: when you first start tracking cars, ease into it. It doesn't matter what fluid you have, you need to figure out what the car's limits are. All the internet chatter in the world doesn't prepare you for what cooking the brakes to 500* feels like out on a track. You certainly don't want that moment to be a big surprise.
I boiled my brakes in my very first track session... I finished the session and drove 2 more with essentially no brakes. No issues after the first boiling... and that didn't even result in going "off". And no, I wasn't terribly slow with no brakes.
Bottom line: when you first start tracking cars, ease into it. It doesn't matter what fluid you have, you need to figure out what the car's limits are. All the internet chatter in the world doesn't prepare you for what cooking the brakes to 500* feels like out on a track. You certainly don't want that moment to be a big surprise.
| Todd TCE | 04-05-2006 10:37 PM |
Long time ago...brake fluid was sold only in sealed steel containers. This is because plastic breaths. Brake fluid that was sold in plastic bottles was considered unstable in time as moisture can creep in the pours of the plastic and contaminate it.
Currently all, or near all that I know of, plastic bottles are 'hemeticly sealed' (sp?) meaing they have a thin membrane in the container and under the cap to prevent this. You usually poke a screw driver through this and don't give it a second thought.
As for life, I'd say that sealed as such today it's near limitless. Within reason of year, not decades perhaps. Can I prove this? No and I don't claim too. However like similar products sealed the life cycle should be similar. We'd have to review glycol and check its properties with regard to settling or break down. I don't believe those tests would be sealed however.
Buy a bottle and get back with us in twenty perhaps.
Currently all, or near all that I know of, plastic bottles are 'hemeticly sealed' (sp?) meaing they have a thin membrane in the container and under the cap to prevent this. You usually poke a screw driver through this and don't give it a second thought.
As for life, I'd say that sealed as such today it's near limitless. Within reason of year, not decades perhaps. Can I prove this? No and I don't claim too. However like similar products sealed the life cycle should be similar. We'd have to review glycol and check its properties with regard to settling or break down. I don't believe those tests would be sealed however.
Buy a bottle and get back with us in twenty perhaps.
| TubeDriver | 04-06-2006 10:22 AM |
No problems on STI with Carbotech XP8s and Synpower fluid. After two days at the track (and I brake hard with ABS going off at most brake points) the fluid looked PERFECT (absolutely clear, no discoloration etc).
HP+ are barely adequate for the track, it is more of a heavy duty autoX type pad/light duty HPDE pad (like Panther +). It will work for a novice at the track but if you use Synpower and HP+, the weak link will be your pads not your fluid.
Try something like XP8 or XP10s and fresh Synpower and you should be able to brake as hard as you want without worries at a HPDE.
[QUOTE=MaxSTi05]Good feedback on actual 'Motorsport' application (this post category). But I would like comments on the STi Brembos as far as track problems with brake fade, modulation, temperature, etc. using the fluids stated above (non-stock). I'm planning on starting with Hawk HP+ on the std rotors for HPDE.[/QUOTE]
HP+ are barely adequate for the track, it is more of a heavy duty autoX type pad/light duty HPDE pad (like Panther +). It will work for a novice at the track but if you use Synpower and HP+, the weak link will be your pads not your fluid.
Try something like XP8 or XP10s and fresh Synpower and you should be able to brake as hard as you want without worries at a HPDE.
[QUOTE=MaxSTi05]Good feedback on actual 'Motorsport' application (this post category). But I would like comments on the STi Brembos as far as track problems with brake fade, modulation, temperature, etc. using the fluids stated above (non-stock). I'm planning on starting with Hawk HP+ on the std rotors for HPDE.[/QUOTE]
| Homemade WRX | 04-06-2006 11:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South] The Local Snap On Tool man sold me a Moisture gauge...Typically...moisture should not exceed 2%....less than 1% being the norm... [/QUOTE]
you just told me about another new tool I have to buy...
you just told me about another new tool I have to buy...
| KC | 04-11-2006 02:38 PM |
Just saw this posted on another forum, figured I'd put it here as some people have used the Ford Fluid....
[QUOTE]Warning--> Ford PM1 brake fluid has changed
Since I have been a rather vocal advocate of "The Ford brake fluid formerly known as -- >C6AZ-19542-A"... (else where on the net) REPLACED BY PM-1(When switched to Motorcraft sourcing)
I feel obligated to warn of a recent change in the part number... and more importantly... It's dry boiling point reduction!!!(I'm a Ford/Linc/Merc parts guy)
PM-1 is now PM-1C
PM-1 had a D.B.P. of 550F
PM-1C has a D.B.P. of 500F [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]PM1C is the new number. BEWARE, the old stuff and new stuff are in the same plastic bottles. Both have the same wording on the front of the bottle. The dry boiling point is in the first line of wording on the back of the bottle. [B]They look indentical.[/B]
Look 1/2 way down on the right column is the part number,
PM-1 FIR No.002092 the good stuff
PM-1-C FIR No 174922 the fair stuff
They even have the same bar code number 3150826582
It is a running change and there is still lots of PM1 in the system.[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI.
[QUOTE]Warning--> Ford PM1 brake fluid has changed
Since I have been a rather vocal advocate of "The Ford brake fluid formerly known as -- >C6AZ-19542-A"... (else where on the net) REPLACED BY PM-1(When switched to Motorcraft sourcing)
I feel obligated to warn of a recent change in the part number... and more importantly... It's dry boiling point reduction!!!(I'm a Ford/Linc/Merc parts guy)
PM-1 is now PM-1C
PM-1 had a D.B.P. of 550F
PM-1C has a D.B.P. of 500F [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]PM1C is the new number. BEWARE, the old stuff and new stuff are in the same plastic bottles. Both have the same wording on the front of the bottle. The dry boiling point is in the first line of wording on the back of the bottle. [B]They look indentical.[/B]
Look 1/2 way down on the right column is the part number,
PM-1 FIR No.002092 the good stuff
PM-1-C FIR No 174922 the fair stuff
They even have the same bar code number 3150826582
It is a running change and there is still lots of PM1 in the system.[/QUOTE]
Just an FYI.
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