| stanton | 06-25-2006 12:43 PM |
Update on the EBC Yellowstuff Rs. I had two track days at Watkins Glen a month ago, and could threshold brake consistently from 100+mph throughout each session. Much better feel than the Reds. I've only had them squeak a few times. I drive on them every day now. My brother (very track experienced) uses them on his Miata and is very happy.
[url="http://www.ajusa.com/cgi-bin/ebc/start?session_id=e9b936745151a8d62374e3fa98039c48"]http://www.ajusa.com/cgi-bin/ebc/st...374e3fa98039c48[/url]
I am using stock spec rotors. I replaced my originals because the vents were almost plugged with rust flakes.
[url="http://www.ajusa.com/cgi-bin/ebc/start?session_id=e9b936745151a8d62374e3fa98039c48"]http://www.ajusa.com/cgi-bin/ebc/st...374e3fa98039c48[/url]
I am using stock spec rotors. I replaced my originals because the vents were almost plugged with rust flakes.
| V8eta | 06-25-2006 10:08 PM |
I am running Ferodo DS2500's and Motul RBF600 fluid with the old 2pot callipers and 280mm discs in my Legacy clubsport car.
Works really well (just using plain Brembo discs so they arent to expensive to replace) but im not running as much hp as many people on here (300-310hp at the engine, 1320kg car) so might not be generating as much heat.
Works really well (just using plain Brembo discs so they arent to expensive to replace) but im not running as much hp as many people on here (300-310hp at the engine, 1320kg car) so might not be generating as much heat.
| turboICE | 06-27-2006 12:23 AM |
Track brake rule #1 - cooling. Don't even begin to think you are going to get any longevity or most effective braking without it[b].[/b]
Do that before you even think about pads.
Track brake rule #2 - you aren't going to get longevity, effective braking and low price on pads. You probably aren't even going to be able to pick two.
If you are serious about braking in an STi - Ferrodo DS3000 and Castrol SRF brake fluid and frequent flushes. I was told today by a long time racer and brake product provider that one hot session can reduce any fluids boiling point by 100* F on a stock brake system. And I don't doubt it. SRF has the highest wet boiling point you can get. Race teams with the budget flush with sealed fluid every session.
Saw a perfect example of two H5 Honda race cars missing rule one with no brake cooling at Beaver Run - they were bending their Carbotech backing plates before the pad was half used up. The conclusion reached was that they were operating well beyond the pad compound temperature (XP 10s) and as a result were getting fade - the result they kept pushing the brakes harder (not necessarily the right response but when you are club racing and door to door for 30 minutes what else are you gonna do but keep pushing for any advantage). At less than 50% pad wear the backing plates were bending - the center of the pad was worn to the plate and the ends were 60% original thickness. The lesson cool your brakes to help them stay in operating temperature (so they will be effective and you don't fade and don't bend your seat bracket trying to stop) and use the highest and broadest operating temperature range pads you can fit to the application.
The STi is heavy you aren't going to run fast laps and get longevity from the pads. Cool the brakes and DS 3000's have the highest broadest operating temperature range for the car and they have the shallowest fall off when you exceed the operating temperature. They bite consistently throughout their operating range.
Now get ready to start buying rotors. Seriously tracking an STi can not be done cheaply.
Do that before you even think about pads.
Track brake rule #2 - you aren't going to get longevity, effective braking and low price on pads. You probably aren't even going to be able to pick two.
If you are serious about braking in an STi - Ferrodo DS3000 and Castrol SRF brake fluid and frequent flushes. I was told today by a long time racer and brake product provider that one hot session can reduce any fluids boiling point by 100* F on a stock brake system. And I don't doubt it. SRF has the highest wet boiling point you can get. Race teams with the budget flush with sealed fluid every session.
Saw a perfect example of two H5 Honda race cars missing rule one with no brake cooling at Beaver Run - they were bending their Carbotech backing plates before the pad was half used up. The conclusion reached was that they were operating well beyond the pad compound temperature (XP 10s) and as a result were getting fade - the result they kept pushing the brakes harder (not necessarily the right response but when you are club racing and door to door for 30 minutes what else are you gonna do but keep pushing for any advantage). At less than 50% pad wear the backing plates were bending - the center of the pad was worn to the plate and the ends were 60% original thickness. The lesson cool your brakes to help them stay in operating temperature (so they will be effective and you don't fade and don't bend your seat bracket trying to stop) and use the highest and broadest operating temperature range pads you can fit to the application.
The STi is heavy you aren't going to run fast laps and get longevity from the pads. Cool the brakes and DS 3000's have the highest broadest operating temperature range for the car and they have the shallowest fall off when you exceed the operating temperature. They bite consistently throughout their operating range.
Now get ready to start buying rotors. Seriously tracking an STi can not be done cheaply.
| Paisan | 06-27-2006 12:31 AM |
Cooling is key. Finding cheap blanks is also a good idea (not sure how inexpensively you can get them for an STi however) But in my case, I run Mountain blanks, and Hawk HP+ pads with Superblue on my 1994 Legacy Turbo that I track often, 4-pot subaru pads up front. I've had great success with this but as Ed said flushing often is key.
-mike
-mike
| turboICE | 06-27-2006 12:36 AM |
I put money on Mike going to Blues when he cages the legover and has to start running wheel to wheel with Adam...
My experience is Ferrodo DS 3000 > Hawk Blues > any Carbotech.
My 240SX race KA for instance don't have a Ferrodo size but the Hawk Blues are dang near as good. And the pads and rotors have both lasted a dozen race days (practice, qualifying, race).
Ed.
My experience is Ferrodo DS 3000 > Hawk Blues > any Carbotech.
My 240SX race KA for instance don't have a Ferrodo size but the Hawk Blues are dang near as good. And the pads and rotors have both lasted a dozen race days (practice, qualifying, race).
Ed.
| Paisan | 06-27-2006 01:36 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]I put money on Mike going to Blues when he cages the legover and has to start running wheel to wheel with Adam...
My experience is Ferrodo DS 3000 > Hawk Blues > any Carbotech.
My 240SX race KA for instance don't have a Ferrodo size but the Hawk Blues are dang near as good. And the pads and rotors have both lasted a dozen race days (practice, qualifying, race).
Ed.[/QUOTE]
You are probably correct on that. I like the HP+ but the blues may be better when I'm wheel to wheeling with you and Adam and Chris. Especially cause that car is heavy and needs to keep momentum as late as possible.
-mike
My experience is Ferrodo DS 3000 > Hawk Blues > any Carbotech.
My 240SX race KA for instance don't have a Ferrodo size but the Hawk Blues are dang near as good. And the pads and rotors have both lasted a dozen race days (practice, qualifying, race).
Ed.[/QUOTE]
You are probably correct on that. I like the HP+ but the blues may be better when I'm wheel to wheeling with you and Adam and Chris. Especially cause that car is heavy and needs to keep momentum as late as possible.
-mike
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-27-2006 09:49 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]
Track brake rule #2 - you aren't going to get longevity, effective braking and low price on pads. You probably aren't even going to be able to pick two.[/QUOTE]
This is sad, but so very true. The DS3000's provide excellent braking- braking points are all well forward from the 2500 points. I find them to be relatively easy on the rotors as well. Longevity- nope- right at two days (WRX wagon w/ FHI 4/2 pots). Low price- nope to that as well.
I am going to try two different things to try and eek a little more life out of them. I'm going to try RCE's brake ducts, my homemade setup is relatively effective- the RCE ducts put the air directly into the rear of the rotor- I have to believe they will be more effective. I'm also going to run 3000's in the rear (have been running 2500's in the rear).
I looked at Ferodo's "endurance" pads (realizing I would give up some friction for some additional longevity) but they are not available in my fitment.
Track brake rule #2 - you aren't going to get longevity, effective braking and low price on pads. You probably aren't even going to be able to pick two.[/QUOTE]
This is sad, but so very true. The DS3000's provide excellent braking- braking points are all well forward from the 2500 points. I find them to be relatively easy on the rotors as well. Longevity- nope- right at two days (WRX wagon w/ FHI 4/2 pots). Low price- nope to that as well.
I am going to try two different things to try and eek a little more life out of them. I'm going to try RCE's brake ducts, my homemade setup is relatively effective- the RCE ducts put the air directly into the rear of the rotor- I have to believe they will be more effective. I'm also going to run 3000's in the rear (have been running 2500's in the rear).
I looked at Ferodo's "endurance" pads (realizing I would give up some friction for some additional longevity) but they are not available in my fitment.
| turboICE | 06-27-2006 09:59 AM |
Not familar with the set up but keep in mind cooling for the rotor pulls air through the center and out. Any increase in the relative pressure towards the center will increase flow and cooling. Pushing air at the outside edge is easier to fabricate but I believe less effective. The middle ground is directly on the inner rotor face as some of that air will be directed to the center. Added benefit is pulling heat away from the bearing when you direct air to the center.
On the STi I could get 4 days out of 3000s - if I bedded them properly.
BTW all my comments are centered on maximum brake effectiveness - for tracking/lapping days there is certainly center ground that can be found for [i]acceptable[/i] effectiveness, [i]acceptable[/i] longevity. Price well that is just the cost of admission - these aren't 2nd gen civics.
Cooling remains the single best improvement you can make (can't be said enough).
On the STi I could get 4 days out of 3000s - if I bedded them properly.
BTW all my comments are centered on maximum brake effectiveness - for tracking/lapping days there is certainly center ground that can be found for [i]acceptable[/i] effectiveness, [i]acceptable[/i] longevity. Price well that is just the cost of admission - these aren't 2nd gen civics.
Cooling remains the single best improvement you can make (can't be said enough).
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-27-2006 10:11 AM |
Four days- you've got bigger brakes :)
Yeah the RCE ducts replace the dust shields up front and direct air into the rear of the rotor. My current setup has air in from fog lamps-> through the wheel well directed at the rotors-> w/ a "deflector" on the control arms to further push into the rear of the rotor- the RCE ones should work better.
The other thing I would add is the compatability of the Ferodo DS2500's (daily) and 3000's (track) is wonderful. This is not the case w/ all pads.
Yeah the RCE ducts replace the dust shields up front and direct air into the rear of the rotor. My current setup has air in from fog lamps-> through the wheel well directed at the rotors-> w/ a "deflector" on the control arms to further push into the rear of the rotor- the RCE ones should work better.
The other thing I would add is the compatability of the Ferodo DS2500's (daily) and 3000's (track) is wonderful. This is not the case w/ all pads.
| turboICE | 06-27-2006 10:27 AM |
Yep on the bigger brakes.
And both of us have used the 2500s for daily performance in plenty cold weather with good initial bite.
The 2500s are not a bad choice for acceptable effectiveness and longevity on track - I used them for quite a bit before biting the bullet and putting 3000s on for track use.
Heck any cooling is a significant improvement, post it up when it is put on and you have feedback.
[edit] oh - am i correct to understand that the RCE is directing air rearward over the hub from the front where the backing plate was? So it is increasing the relative pressure at the center of the rotor, right? (I think I misunderstood your first description)
And both of us have used the 2500s for daily performance in plenty cold weather with good initial bite.
The 2500s are not a bad choice for acceptable effectiveness and longevity on track - I used them for quite a bit before biting the bullet and putting 3000s on for track use.
Heck any cooling is a significant improvement, post it up when it is put on and you have feedback.
[edit] oh - am i correct to understand that the RCE is directing air rearward over the hub from the front where the backing plate was? So it is increasing the relative pressure at the center of the rotor, right? (I think I misunderstood your first description)
| BIGSKYWRX | 06-27-2006 10:43 AM |
Yup- pic shows it better than I'm explaining it- this is their prtotype- the actual pieces are powder coated all pretty :D
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/stillwill/Myles%20pics/Brake%20ducts/alduct2.jpg[/IMG]
What I'd really like to do is run a session w/ my fog covers in- no ducting- get some temps, run my homemade setup for a session get temps and finally the RCE setup for a nice comparo. I often have these good intentions of experimenting, but often don't get it done :lol:
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/stillwill/Myles%20pics/Brake%20ducts/alduct2.jpg[/IMG]
What I'd really like to do is run a session w/ my fog covers in- no ducting- get some temps, run my homemade setup for a session get temps and finally the RCE setup for a nice comparo. I often have these good intentions of experimenting, but often don't get it done :lol:
| ghschirtz | 06-27-2006 12:01 PM |
^^^Do you have to pull out the fog lights to use this kind of duct? I would like to have such a thing on my daily driver 02 WRX. I don't think I am abusing the brakes that much, and run Yellowstuff R's, but as we all see, it might not be possible to have more cooling than you need...
George
George
| turboICE | 06-27-2006 03:54 PM |
Most excellent BIGSKY! Exactly what is called for. Oh BTW doh I just figured out that RCE probably means RaceComp - despite my not understanding your first description - I would have known they would direct the cooling exactly where it needed to go.
George, you probably can't get too much cooling in Pasadena on a daily driver with street pads (or a production bodied race car for that matter) - you could on a DD in the far north though. You would probably also clog your ducts with snow pretty quickly. There is no rule that says where you have to get the air to the part shown I don't think. You could get a thin offset inlet through the bottom of your lip something along the lines of 2" X 6" to feed ducting going to the above.
BTW - Myles you need to slap a part number on that bad boy and get the SCCA to add it to the STi and WRX Touring class spec lines.
George, you probably can't get too much cooling in Pasadena on a daily driver with street pads (or a production bodied race car for that matter) - you could on a DD in the far north though. You would probably also clog your ducts with snow pretty quickly. There is no rule that says where you have to get the air to the part shown I don't think. You could get a thin offset inlet through the bottom of your lip something along the lines of 2" X 6" to feed ducting going to the above.
BTW - Myles you need to slap a part number on that bad boy and get the SCCA to add it to the STi and WRX Touring class spec lines.
| ghschirtz | 06-27-2006 06:09 PM |
^^^ICE, I run track days at Willow Springs and Laguna Seca, I am concerned about those. We agree about the snow...! The EBC Yellowstuff R's are a racing pad that still works reasonably for the street, so I run them full time. I will look at the Sub to see about your suggestion, and thank you.
George
George
| RaceComp Engineering | 06-28-2006 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]
BTW - Myles you need to slap a part number on that bad boy and get the SCCA to add it to the STi and WRX Touring class spec lines.[/QUOTE]
already in the works actually.
mw
BTW - Myles you need to slap a part number on that bad boy and get the SCCA to add it to the STi and WRX Touring class spec lines.[/QUOTE]
already in the works actually.
mw
| ruski | 06-28-2006 02:20 PM |
[QUOTE=ghschirtz]^^^ICE, I run track days at Willow Springs and Laguna Seca, I am concerned about those. We agree about the snow...! The EBC Yellowstuff R's are a racing pad that still works reasonably for the street, so I run them full time. I will look at the Sub to see about your suggestion, and thank you.
George[/QUOTE]
I'm running Yellowstuffs right now and they are destroying my rotors. The pads are flakeing/cracking a little and that is damaging the rotors (Little groves all the way around the rotor). Are you have the same problem, if not are you doing anything special?
George[/QUOTE]
I'm running Yellowstuffs right now and they are destroying my rotors. The pads are flakeing/cracking a little and that is damaging the rotors (Little groves all the way around the rotor). Are you have the same problem, if not are you doing anything special?
| turboICE | 06-28-2006 03:43 PM |
I am not a big fan of EBC. I have no basis other than anicedotal experience gleened from others' experience (plus my own dissatisfaction with ceramic pad materials generally), so my poor opinion of EBC products is pretty much exactly that a poor opinion without much direct basis - I simply don't use EBC because of problems others have had and I am satisified with my current alternatives.
So setting that aside for the moment - do you use yellowstuff all the time or do you switch pads at the track? Were the rotors clean of other compounds and then the pads properly bedded in per the manufacturers directions? Despite my poor opinion of EBC, the problem sounds more like one of either contamination with incompatible compounds or the pads were not properly bedded in. For instance, I don't know for sure but I could envison ferrous brake pad material left on the rotor doing quite a job on ceramic pads as it separates from the rotor and gets into the pad.
So setting that aside for the moment - do you use yellowstuff all the time or do you switch pads at the track? Were the rotors clean of other compounds and then the pads properly bedded in per the manufacturers directions? Despite my poor opinion of EBC, the problem sounds more like one of either contamination with incompatible compounds or the pads were not properly bedded in. For instance, I don't know for sure but I could envison ferrous brake pad material left on the rotor doing quite a job on ceramic pads as it separates from the rotor and gets into the pad.
| ruski | 06-28-2006 05:19 PM |
The rotors were turned before I put the Yellowstuffs on. Currently I am only using Yellowstuffs and not switching pads. I am also almost positive that I bed in the brakes correctly.
The redstuffs ceramics did the same to me, but I used them coming from stock pads and didn't turn the rotors. I changed to the Yellowstuffs as I destroyed the redstuffs in three track days, and they were fading after about 10min of track time.
The redstuffs ceramics did the same to me, but I used them coming from stock pads and didn't turn the rotors. I changed to the Yellowstuffs as I destroyed the redstuffs in three track days, and they were fading after about 10min of track time.
| turboICE | 06-28-2006 05:23 PM |
Hmm, no idea then given thier intended use not sure what would cause such result they definitely shouldn't be doing that.
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