| KC | 03-07-2003 11:52 AM |
STX People - Important
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(Please do not merge this thread with the auto-x rules)
It has come to light recently that the rules for STX do NOT allow for the change in diameter of any exhaust pipes after the header, and before the last cat.
The rules that exists are currently worded for cars that only have one catalytic converter. Even tho we can 'go down to one', there's still no rule in place to change the effective diameter of the pipes until it exits the last cat.
This is a potential protest issue for national events.
Also, our situation is unique to say the least, because our cats on the DP are INTEGRATED with the pipe itself as a unit, and not 'bolted or attached' to the DP. At that, most after market producers of downpipes alter the diameter of the pipe to accomodate better exhaust flow.
I would suggest writing to the SEB (as listed to do in the 2003 rulebook) to ask they implement Street-Prepareds exhaust rules for STX. This will allow anyone who runs a vehicle with more than one cat, to make the necessary modifications that are allowed to those who only have one cat.
Example: Neon. Hotshot has a header that will bolt right to the back of the cat. We have a turbo in the way of that, and an uppipe and a cat in the downpipe. So basically, they can incrasse the diameter of the pipe because it's part of 'the header' and there's no pipes in between the header and the cat.
This lack of clear wording makes it impossible for any WRX that competes in STX to have the allowed modifications to compete legally, if they wish to do the authorized midifcations that are legal on ALL other cars we compete against.
Here's the SP rule as it's worded:
"Exhaust manifolds and muffler systems are free, except that they must be quiet and terminate behind the driver. Exhaust heat shields may be removed. "
If we can work that into the 'high-flow cat' rule, I think that will be best for the class.
Suggestons? comments?
It has come to light recently that the rules for STX do NOT allow for the change in diameter of any exhaust pipes after the header, and before the last cat.
The rules that exists are currently worded for cars that only have one catalytic converter. Even tho we can 'go down to one', there's still no rule in place to change the effective diameter of the pipes until it exits the last cat.
This is a potential protest issue for national events.
Also, our situation is unique to say the least, because our cats on the DP are INTEGRATED with the pipe itself as a unit, and not 'bolted or attached' to the DP. At that, most after market producers of downpipes alter the diameter of the pipe to accomodate better exhaust flow.
I would suggest writing to the SEB (as listed to do in the 2003 rulebook) to ask they implement Street-Prepareds exhaust rules for STX. This will allow anyone who runs a vehicle with more than one cat, to make the necessary modifications that are allowed to those who only have one cat.
Example: Neon. Hotshot has a header that will bolt right to the back of the cat. We have a turbo in the way of that, and an uppipe and a cat in the downpipe. So basically, they can incrasse the diameter of the pipe because it's part of 'the header' and there's no pipes in between the header and the cat.
This lack of clear wording makes it impossible for any WRX that competes in STX to have the allowed modifications to compete legally, if they wish to do the authorized midifcations that are legal on ALL other cars we compete against.
Here's the SP rule as it's worded:
"Exhaust manifolds and muffler systems are free, except that they must be quiet and terminate behind the driver. Exhaust heat shields may be removed. "
If we can work that into the 'high-flow cat' rule, I think that will be best for the class.
Suggestons? comments?
| MNbiker | 03-07-2003 12:37 PM |
KC,
I agree the SP rules would be a sensible approach, with the addition of the catalytic converter language that was issued in the June '02 FasTrack.
Unless/until the SEB clarifies the exhaust rules, I'd be surprised if every high placing WRX isn't protested. Given the significant HP gains WRX's can make w/exhaust mods, I'd think the protests will have a pretty good chance of sticking. Unlike the ECU reflash issue, this one's VERY easy to spot - and I'd bet virtually every STX-prepped WRX has some exhaust component that's technically illegal, based on the wording (or lack thereof) of the current rules. :(
-Steve
I agree the SP rules would be a sensible approach, with the addition of the catalytic converter language that was issued in the June '02 FasTrack.
Unless/until the SEB clarifies the exhaust rules, I'd be surprised if every high placing WRX isn't protested. Given the significant HP gains WRX's can make w/exhaust mods, I'd think the protests will have a pretty good chance of sticking. Unlike the ECU reflash issue, this one's VERY easy to spot - and I'd bet virtually every STX-prepped WRX has some exhaust component that's technically illegal, based on the wording (or lack thereof) of the current rules. :(
-Steve
| Orion | 03-07-2003 01:31 PM |
Hmmm....
I guess what you need to find is an exhaust system that meets the lettter of the law.
Here's my suggestion:
Stock exhaust manifold
TurboXS up-pipe (same ID as turbo inlet and same material as OEM exhaust manifold)
Stock DP
Scoobysport Mid pipes (stock diameter w/o resonator)
Any muffler box
I hope that's legal because that's my exact current setup.
According to the what kC describes, any bellmouth DP designs woudl be illegal also, correct?
I guess what you need to find is an exhaust system that meets the lettter of the law.
Here's my suggestion:
Stock exhaust manifold
TurboXS up-pipe (same ID as turbo inlet and same material as OEM exhaust manifold)
Stock DP
Scoobysport Mid pipes (stock diameter w/o resonator)
Any muffler box
I hope that's legal because that's my exact current setup.
According to the what kC describes, any bellmouth DP designs woudl be illegal also, correct?
| Jaxx | 03-07-2003 01:37 PM |
[quote]TurboXS up-pipe (same diameter and material as OEM[/quote]
um no its not
stock is a steel unit that has a small entry diamater large center section and a small exit
and its not made of cast iron
this is bad news for stx guys
um no its not
stock is a steel unit that has a small entry diamater large center section and a small exit
and its not made of cast iron
this is bad news for stx guys
| elgorey | 03-07-2003 01:48 PM |
my head hurts
| Orion | 03-07-2003 02:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jaxx [/i]
[B]
um no its not
stock is a steel unit that has a small entry diamater large center section and a small exit
and its not made of cast iron
this is bad news for stx guys [/B][/QUOTE]
oops. you're right. it's the same material as the exhaust manifold. got my wording wrong there.
i didn't measure the entry and exit diameters before i installed it. i thought the OEM would have the same diameters as the manifold and the turbo.:confused:
[B]
um no its not
stock is a steel unit that has a small entry diamater large center section and a small exit
and its not made of cast iron
this is bad news for stx guys [/B][/QUOTE]
oops. you're right. it's the same material as the exhaust manifold. got my wording wrong there.
i didn't measure the entry and exit diameters before i installed it. i thought the OEM would have the same diameters as the manifold and the turbo.:confused:
| thechickencow | 03-07-2003 02:16 PM |
My head hurts too.
| ChrisW | 03-07-2003 03:26 PM |
oh the pain....
ok :confused: ... so what "hi-flow-cat" can we use that is made with the stock diameter piping?
Ok, so we need a steel up-pipe, we can [i]any[/i] header that can bolt up to the stock up-pipe. We should be ok because the stock header has no emissions equipment, only the up-pipe.
In our case, we would have to use a 2.25" DP that replaces the stock DP. The mid pipe would have to have the stock pipe diameter (a really short section) to the cat. Since the cat has to be with in 6" of the primary (first cat in DP) it effectively needs to be with in 3" of the flange for the midpipe section where it meets the DP.
The question is anything past the single hi-flow cat consider part of the cat-back exhaust system? Even if it's a custom midpipe?
ok :confused: ... so what "hi-flow-cat" can we use that is made with the stock diameter piping?
Ok, so we need a steel up-pipe, we can [i]any[/i] header that can bolt up to the stock up-pipe. We should be ok because the stock header has no emissions equipment, only the up-pipe.
In our case, we would have to use a 2.25" DP that replaces the stock DP. The mid pipe would have to have the stock pipe diameter (a really short section) to the cat. Since the cat has to be with in 6" of the primary (first cat in DP) it effectively needs to be with in 3" of the flange for the midpipe section where it meets the DP.
The question is anything past the single hi-flow cat consider part of the cat-back exhaust system? Even if it's a custom midpipe?
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-07-2003 03:55 PM |
OK. I have a question.
Keep in mind, this is one of those "on the other hand" questions.
BUT,,,what had the most impact when a person wins????
The exhaust specifics in question????
Or the persons ability to drive well????
Keep in mind, this is one of those "on the other hand" questions.
BUT,,,what had the most impact when a person wins????
The exhaust specifics in question????
Or the persons ability to drive well????
| rex n effect | 03-07-2003 04:52 PM |
why did this only come up recently?
have the exhaust rules changed in the past couple years?
that really sucks if it's true.
have the exhaust rules changed in the past couple years?
that really sucks if it's true.
| thechickencow | 03-07-2003 05:02 PM |
Couple of questions since I haven't been following very closely:
1) Did they ever resolve the issue with cats and where it needs to be, or if one is good enough?
2) When will he have a resolution to this so we can determine what class we'll be in with our current mods?
3) What can I do to help to keep myself in STX WITH my current mods (uppipe, scoobysport dp)? Its getting to the point where i just say screw it and run SM.
1) Did they ever resolve the issue with cats and where it needs to be, or if one is good enough?
2) When will he have a resolution to this so we can determine what class we'll be in with our current mods?
3) What can I do to help to keep myself in STX WITH my current mods (uppipe, scoobysport dp)? Its getting to the point where i just say screw it and run SM.
| Jaxx | 03-07-2003 05:14 PM |
orions post got me thinking
the subaru stock exaust is not a uniform diamater
in the uppipe there is a section that is 3+inches wide.. yeah it has a cat but it is still wider .. would you have to maintain the smalles diamater or the largest .. iirc the ends of the uppipe are only 1.75"
so if we were to replace it .. would it have to be 3" in the center
my head hurts too
the subaru stock exaust is not a uniform diamater
in the uppipe there is a section that is 3+inches wide.. yeah it has a cat but it is still wider .. would you have to maintain the smalles diamater or the largest .. iirc the ends of the uppipe are only 1.75"
so if we were to replace it .. would it have to be 3" in the center
my head hurts too
| Dussander | 03-07-2003 05:29 PM |
[QUOTE]1) Did they ever resolve the issue with cats and where it needs to be, or if one is good enough?[/QUOTE]
Not yet.
Not yet.
| CamaroFS34 | 03-07-2003 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]OK. I have a question.
Keep in mind, this is one of those "on the other hand" questions.
BUT,,,what had the most impact when a person wins????
The exhaust specifics in question????
Or the persons ability to drive well???? [/B][/QUOTE]The the obvious answer is that the ability has more of an effect... but if the exhaust specs allow for even minute differences in time? Well, plenty of contests have been decided by less than 0.1 seconds.
I would question more why this is coming to light [i]now[/i]. I think it's because more people are becoming interested in STX. As a result, people are examining the minutia of how to win... including how to protest people if necessary.
Don't forget that oftentimes, the difference between a protest being filed and a "warning" by fellow competitors is simply a matter of admitting that there could be a problem, and that you'll fix it. If you take a cocksure attitude and/or are perceived as the class prick by others, you can be sure that the protest will be filed, instead of someone just "warning" you to fix it before the next event.
Karen
[B]OK. I have a question.
Keep in mind, this is one of those "on the other hand" questions.
BUT,,,what had the most impact when a person wins????
The exhaust specifics in question????
Or the persons ability to drive well???? [/B][/QUOTE]The the obvious answer is that the ability has more of an effect... but if the exhaust specs allow for even minute differences in time? Well, plenty of contests have been decided by less than 0.1 seconds.
I would question more why this is coming to light [i]now[/i]. I think it's because more people are becoming interested in STX. As a result, people are examining the minutia of how to win... including how to protest people if necessary.
Don't forget that oftentimes, the difference between a protest being filed and a "warning" by fellow competitors is simply a matter of admitting that there could be a problem, and that you'll fix it. If you take a cocksure attitude and/or are perceived as the class prick by others, you can be sure that the protest will be filed, instead of someone just "warning" you to fix it before the next event.
Karen
| Orion | 03-07-2003 08:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by CamaroFS34 [/i]
[B]
I would question more why this is coming to light [i]now[/i]. I think it's because more people are becoming interested in STX. As a result, people are examining the minutia of how to win... including how to protest people if necessary.
Karen [/B][/QUOTE]
That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up???
[B]
I would question more why this is coming to light [i]now[/i]. I think it's because more people are becoming interested in STX. As a result, people are examining the minutia of how to win... including how to protest people if necessary.
Karen [/B][/QUOTE]
That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up???
| MNbiker | 03-07-2003 08:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up??? [/B][/QUOTE]
Could it have something to do with the fact that WRX's finished 1-2 in STX at Ft. Myers? Like it or not, with success comes pissed off competitors looking for an edge..... :(
I just hope this all gets sorted out soon, so I can finish my exhaust system mods without worrying about what is or isn't legal!:rolleyes:
-Steve
[B]That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up??? [/B][/QUOTE]
Could it have something to do with the fact that WRX's finished 1-2 in STX at Ft. Myers? Like it or not, with success comes pissed off competitors looking for an edge..... :(
I just hope this all gets sorted out soon, so I can finish my exhaust system mods without worrying about what is or isn't legal!:rolleyes:
-Steve
| Orion | 03-07-2003 09:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
Could it have something to do with the fact that WRX's finished 1-2 in STX at Ft. Myers? Like it or not, with success comes pissed off competitors looking for an edge..... :(
I just hope this all gets sorted out soon, so I can finish my exhaust system mods without worrying about what is or isn't legal!:rolleyes:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
ITR's finished 1-2 in STX at Nationals last year.
I don't see how one events results lead to a witch hunt all of a sudden. Besides, 3 of the 4 cars were WRX's the other one was an A4 at the Ft. Myers tour!
[B]
Could it have something to do with the fact that WRX's finished 1-2 in STX at Ft. Myers? Like it or not, with success comes pissed off competitors looking for an edge..... :(
I just hope this all gets sorted out soon, so I can finish my exhaust system mods without worrying about what is or isn't legal!:rolleyes:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
ITR's finished 1-2 in STX at Nationals last year.
I don't see how one events results lead to a witch hunt all of a sudden. Besides, 3 of the 4 cars were WRX's the other one was an A4 at the Ft. Myers tour!
| MNbiker | 03-07-2003 09:43 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
ITR's finished 1-2 in STX at Nationals last year.
I don't see how one events results lead to a witch hunt all of a sudden. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. However, the most vocal anti-WRX sentiments on streettouring.com seem to be coming from ITR drivers.:(
There's been quite a discussion going on over there today, regarding WRX exhausts and ECU programming (upwards of 50 posts today, which is huge for that forum).
-Steve
[B]
ITR's finished 1-2 in STX at Nationals last year.
I don't see how one events results lead to a witch hunt all of a sudden. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. However, the most vocal anti-WRX sentiments on streettouring.com seem to be coming from ITR drivers.:(
There's been quite a discussion going on over there today, regarding WRX exhausts and ECU programming (upwards of 50 posts today, which is huge for that forum).
-Steve
| ChrisW | 03-07-2003 09:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion [/i]
[B]
That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up??? [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone delibrately overlooked this issue. I think the existing STS folks just assumed we knew the rules and never raised the issue. Last year was a preperation year, no one knew what would happen with the class. Now that we have better prepared car for STX, the finer points on the rules are getting examined.
We (the WRX drivers) are not the only ones. As KC pointed out the Nissan Spec V and the Neon have CATs in the headers. They are equally resricted by the requirement of the header to pass emissions, now impossible with out a hi flow cat included in the design (theoretically speaking of course)
[B]
That's the one thing that irritates me the most about AutoX. Instead of letting the [b]results on course[/b] speak for themselves, someone who thinks they should have won tries to get the other person DQ'd. :rolleyes:
I can understand protesting boost issues and the like, but like Karen stated, why has it taken OVER ONE YEAR for this to be brought up??? [/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone delibrately overlooked this issue. I think the existing STS folks just assumed we knew the rules and never raised the issue. Last year was a preperation year, no one knew what would happen with the class. Now that we have better prepared car for STX, the finer points on the rules are getting examined.
We (the WRX drivers) are not the only ones. As KC pointed out the Nissan Spec V and the Neon have CATs in the headers. They are equally resricted by the requirement of the header to pass emissions, now impossible with out a hi flow cat included in the design (theoretically speaking of course)
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-08-2003 08:32 AM |
I have been in about 5-6 local events, a somewhat ignorant noob, basically. But I wanted to share my opinion just for the sake of argument. I stated it earlier in this thread by noting driver ability vs. the impact of the exhaust specifics in question.
I want to describe an example and see what you have to say about it.
1. My 2nd event was the I-Club challenge here in Jax. In a completely stock WRX with stock RE92's, I placed 2nd in novice. I believe there were something like 30+ novices that day.
2. At our first event of this season, I had Mike King (2nd in class at nationals last year) in my class (stx). He was driving a Mini (not an S). I had springs and cat-back on RE92's and managed to stay withing a second of his best time. I was very proud of myself that day. Mike is an awesome driver.
I hope you get my point. It seems the people that are complaining about our mods are sore losers. Im not trying to spark anything, thats just how it appears from my ignorant point of view.
Thanks for your time,
Scott
I want to describe an example and see what you have to say about it.
1. My 2nd event was the I-Club challenge here in Jax. In a completely stock WRX with stock RE92's, I placed 2nd in novice. I believe there were something like 30+ novices that day.
2. At our first event of this season, I had Mike King (2nd in class at nationals last year) in my class (stx). He was driving a Mini (not an S). I had springs and cat-back on RE92's and managed to stay withing a second of his best time. I was very proud of myself that day. Mike is an awesome driver.
I hope you get my point. It seems the people that are complaining about our mods are sore losers. Im not trying to spark anything, thats just how it appears from my ignorant point of view.
Thanks for your time,
Scott
| TheWRX | 03-08-2003 10:57 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Orion[/i]
[B]Besides, 3 of the 4 cars were WRX's the other one was an A4 at the Ft. Myers tour![/B][/QUOTE]
All 4 were WRX's. The car listed for Oliver in the results is wrong, he co-drove Kiko's WRX.
Scott, nobody doubts that driving skill is much more important than car preparation. But if the best drivers square off, times get close, and a few more HP can be the difference between landing on 1st or 2nd place.
[B]Besides, 3 of the 4 cars were WRX's the other one was an A4 at the Ft. Myers tour![/B][/QUOTE]
All 4 were WRX's. The car listed for Oliver in the results is wrong, he co-drove Kiko's WRX.
Scott, nobody doubts that driving skill is much more important than car preparation. But if the best drivers square off, times get close, and a few more HP can be the difference between landing on 1st or 2nd place.
| KC | 03-08-2003 11:14 AM |
Just to clear the air here a tad....
"I" am the one who brought up the lapse in the ruling.
It happened because someone made a comment that a 4" downpipe wasn't legal for the class. I was about to post that the poster was wrong and cite the rule.
Well in looking for the rule, I found out... it didn't exist.
THAT is when I made the posts regarding the cats, pipe width etc.
So if you want to give a beatdown to anyone... head on over to my house... or wait 'till I'm in your area.
Here's the catch... I've been wrong before.
And I think that I am on this subject after talking with a few people. The CAT on the downpipe, effectively making the entire downpipe, a CAT. If the CAT in the DP was flanged to more pipes, that would make it jsut the CAT can be replaced. Since it's one unit... flange to flange DP with a cat integrated... it's one unit and should be legal to replace. (Remember...many of these rules were made off of rules that have been around for many, many years. New technology and multiple cats need to be addressed. These rules still go under the assumption that a cat has a flange on both ends and is not an integrated unit to any piping. The WRX, the SRT-4, Nissan SpecV, are all coming with integrated cats instead of bolt-on cats.) STX is a bolt on class.
So... run them but be prepared for a protest.
Sorry for the hysteria... but it shows there's still some work to be done in the rules.
:)
"I" am the one who brought up the lapse in the ruling.
It happened because someone made a comment that a 4" downpipe wasn't legal for the class. I was about to post that the poster was wrong and cite the rule.
Well in looking for the rule, I found out... it didn't exist.
THAT is when I made the posts regarding the cats, pipe width etc.
So if you want to give a beatdown to anyone... head on over to my house... or wait 'till I'm in your area.
Here's the catch... I've been wrong before.
And I think that I am on this subject after talking with a few people. The CAT on the downpipe, effectively making the entire downpipe, a CAT. If the CAT in the DP was flanged to more pipes, that would make it jsut the CAT can be replaced. Since it's one unit... flange to flange DP with a cat integrated... it's one unit and should be legal to replace. (Remember...many of these rules were made off of rules that have been around for many, many years. New technology and multiple cats need to be addressed. These rules still go under the assumption that a cat has a flange on both ends and is not an integrated unit to any piping. The WRX, the SRT-4, Nissan SpecV, are all coming with integrated cats instead of bolt-on cats.) STX is a bolt on class.
So... run them but be prepared for a protest.
Sorry for the hysteria... but it shows there's still some work to be done in the rules.
:)
| TheWRX | 03-08-2003 11:30 AM |
Re: STX People - Important
�
�
Back to the original topic:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]there's still no rule in place to change the effective diameter of the pipes until it exits the last cat.[/B][/QUOTE]
Can we change the pipes at all? I'm looking at the rule book, and my head is also starting to hurt...
The stock rule (13.10.E) says (simplified): "Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the catalytic converter, may be substituted..." That allows a catback, everything else remains unchanged.
Moving on to STS. Rule 17.10.C allows headers. I don't see any other exhaust rules. So we got headers and a catback.
In STX, we have the by now infamous cat rule (17.11.A.6). It only talks about replacing cats, it says nothing about replacing exhaust pieces.
I had always assumed that we could replace the exhaust, but now I see nothing in the rules that allows us to change the uppipe, downpipe or front midpipe. It looks like an oversight to me. How could anybody replace multiple cats by one, or even move the one they have by 6", if they can't replace/modify the exhaust itself?
Edit: I typed the above before KC's last response. So would the same interpretation also hold for the uppipe? Because the cat is integrated, and we can replace/remove the cat, we can replace the whole pipe?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]there's still no rule in place to change the effective diameter of the pipes until it exits the last cat.[/B][/QUOTE]
Can we change the pipes at all? I'm looking at the rule book, and my head is also starting to hurt...
The stock rule (13.10.E) says (simplified): "Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the catalytic converter, may be substituted..." That allows a catback, everything else remains unchanged.
Moving on to STS. Rule 17.10.C allows headers. I don't see any other exhaust rules. So we got headers and a catback.
In STX, we have the by now infamous cat rule (17.11.A.6). It only talks about replacing cats, it says nothing about replacing exhaust pieces.
I had always assumed that we could replace the exhaust, but now I see nothing in the rules that allows us to change the uppipe, downpipe or front midpipe. It looks like an oversight to me. How could anybody replace multiple cats by one, or even move the one they have by 6", if they can't replace/modify the exhaust itself?
Edit: I typed the above before KC's last response. So would the same interpretation also hold for the uppipe? Because the cat is integrated, and we can replace/remove the cat, we can replace the whole pipe?
| Subdued | 03-08-2003 12:32 PM |
Re: Re: STX People - Important
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]Edit: I typed the above before KC's last response. So would the same interpretation also hold for the uppipe? Because the cat is integrated, and we can replace/remove the cat, we can replace the whole pipe? [/B][/QUOTE]I would agree with this interpretation. Maybe the question that would be in front of the SEB would read "Does the definition of Cat include the pipe that it is contained in from upstream mounting flange to downstream mounting flange?" This along with the ruling of the primary cat IMO would adequately clarify the rule on the exhaust.
[B]Edit: I typed the above before KC's last response. So would the same interpretation also hold for the uppipe? Because the cat is integrated, and we can replace/remove the cat, we can replace the whole pipe? [/B][/QUOTE]I would agree with this interpretation. Maybe the question that would be in front of the SEB would read "Does the definition of Cat include the pipe that it is contained in from upstream mounting flange to downstream mounting flange?" This along with the ruling of the primary cat IMO would adequately clarify the rule on the exhaust.
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-09-2003 08:38 AM |
Would I be correct in saying that an unprotestable mod could be a gutted uppipe?? Not becuase the protester would think it was stock, you should be able to tell them its gutted. It will meet size requirements and the material its made of would, obviously, stay the same.. They couldnt possibly protest that, right :confused:
No one here has gutted a dp, though.
Not yet anyway.:D
Scott
No one here has gutted a dp, though.
Not yet anyway.:D
Scott
| Storm | 03-09-2003 03:29 PM |
I would think that the definition of cat would include the entire piece as described in a part number. If that's flange to flange, then there are your dimensions.
Resonators and mufflers (and cat converters) commonly use different size tubes in their design/construction. To try and specify what diameter is the true diameter is not only subjective, it's pointless(imho).
It'll probably take a protest and some broken hearts/expectations to clear up this confusion and lack of clarity in the written rule.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
Resonators and mufflers (and cat converters) commonly use different size tubes in their design/construction. To try and specify what diameter is the true diameter is not only subjective, it's pointless(imho).
It'll probably take a protest and some broken hearts/expectations to clear up this confusion and lack of clarity in the written rule.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url]
| KC | 03-10-2003 08:14 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Storm [/i]
[B]I would think that the definition of cat would include the entire piece as described in a part number. If that's flange to flange, then there are your dimensions.
Resonators and mufflers (and cat converters) commonly use different size tubes in their design/construction. To try and specify what diameter is the true diameter is not only subjective, it's pointless(imho).
It'll probably take a protest and some broken hearts/expectations to clear up this confusion and lack of clarity in the written rule.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]Yup. If you go to a Subaru Dealership with a failed cat on a downpipe, they will not replace just the cat... the whole DP gets replaced. It's one part number for the whole assembly. Since it's free to change out the cats, then the protest has no merit.
--kC
[B]I would think that the definition of cat would include the entire piece as described in a part number. If that's flange to flange, then there are your dimensions.
Resonators and mufflers (and cat converters) commonly use different size tubes in their design/construction. To try and specify what diameter is the true diameter is not only subjective, it's pointless(imho).
It'll probably take a protest and some broken hearts/expectations to clear up this confusion and lack of clarity in the written rule.
Jay Storm
[url]www.sourcemotorsports.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]Yup. If you go to a Subaru Dealership with a failed cat on a downpipe, they will not replace just the cat... the whole DP gets replaced. It's one part number for the whole assembly. Since it's free to change out the cats, then the protest has no merit.
--kC
| trhoppe | 03-10-2003 11:38 AM |
KC - I told you so :lol: :lol: :lol:
| MNbiker | 03-10-2003 04:04 PM |
So assuming this gets worked out in a manner that confirms most aftermarket turbo-back exhaust systems are indeed legal, I do have a question:
What about downpipes that have a separate pipe for the wastegate? Even if we assume the downpipe can be categorized as a catalytic converter, could a divorced wastegate pipe be considered illegal? It's questionable how much advantage such a design provides at lower STX-legal power levels, but that may not matter in a protest situation.
I'm pondering this question as I get ready to order my turbo-back exhaust. I'm currently torn between Vishnu & APS - anyone care to help sway me one way or the other?
-Steve
What about downpipes that have a separate pipe for the wastegate? Even if we assume the downpipe can be categorized as a catalytic converter, could a divorced wastegate pipe be considered illegal? It's questionable how much advantage such a design provides at lower STX-legal power levels, but that may not matter in a protest situation.
I'm pondering this question as I get ready to order my turbo-back exhaust. I'm currently torn between Vishnu & APS - anyone care to help sway me one way or the other?
-Steve
| TheWRX | 03-10-2003 05:21 PM |
Steve, if I were in your shoes (without an upgraded exhaust), I would wait until the dust settles. Apart from the issues discussed in this thread, there is also an appeal to a protest about cat location pending. If the protest is upheld (i. e. the appeal gets turned down), this would mean that only exhausts with a cat in the downpipe are legal. Which rules out many of the commonly sold turbo-backs.
| MNbiker | 03-10-2003 06:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TheWRX [/i]
[B]Steve, if I were in your shoes (without an upgraded exhaust), I would wait until the dust settles. Apart from the issues discussed in this thread, there is also an appeal to a protest about cat location pending. If the protest is upheld (i. e. the appeal gets turned down), this would mean that only exhausts with a cat in the downpipe are legal. Which rules out many of the commonly sold turbo-backs. [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, so who's going to be the guinea pig in San Diego??:lol:
Actually, I was kind of leaning towards the APS for a couple reasons:
1) The cat is located in the down-pipe (more defensibly the "primary" cat AND a more effective place to put the cat)
2) I really like the exhaust note of the APS.
If nothing gets resolved in San Diego, I may wait, or just get the APS, which appears the safer choice.
-Steve
[B]Steve, if I were in your shoes (without an upgraded exhaust), I would wait until the dust settles. Apart from the issues discussed in this thread, there is also an appeal to a protest about cat location pending. If the protest is upheld (i. e. the appeal gets turned down), this would mean that only exhausts with a cat in the downpipe are legal. Which rules out many of the commonly sold turbo-backs. [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, so who's going to be the guinea pig in San Diego??:lol:
Actually, I was kind of leaning towards the APS for a couple reasons:
1) The cat is located in the down-pipe (more defensibly the "primary" cat AND a more effective place to put the cat)
2) I really like the exhaust note of the APS.
If nothing gets resolved in San Diego, I may wait, or just get the APS, which appears the safer choice.
-Steve
| Orion | 03-10-2003 06:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]
I agree. However, the most vocal anti-WRX sentiments on streettouring.com seem to be coming from ITR drivers.:(
There's been quite a discussion going on over there today, regarding WRX exhausts and ECU programming (upwards of 50 posts today, which is huge for that forum).
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll be in the same region as one of the ITR's that's quite vocal.;)
We'll get alot of the misconceptions cleared up once our season starts.
I don't plan on changing a thing on my exhaust so we'll see how it holds up in Toledo. I'd test the waters earlier, but I don't think I'll make the Ft. Watne CenDiv.
[B]
I agree. However, the most vocal anti-WRX sentiments on streettouring.com seem to be coming from ITR drivers.:(
There's been quite a discussion going on over there today, regarding WRX exhausts and ECU programming (upwards of 50 posts today, which is huge for that forum).
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll be in the same region as one of the ITR's that's quite vocal.;)
We'll get alot of the misconceptions cleared up once our season starts.
I don't plan on changing a thing on my exhaust so we'll see how it holds up in Toledo. I'd test the waters earlier, but I don't think I'll make the Ft. Watne CenDiv.
| Scooby South | 03-15-2003 08:59 AM |
Made this a sticky...:D
Bill
Bill
| omahasubaru | 03-17-2003 09:44 AM |
As this is a Street Touring type class... I don't see the need to impliment SP exhaust rules... The RS in STS can have a header & catback, but the stock cats (2 of them) have to remain (IIRC).
So with the WRX you keep the stock DP, then remove the 3rd cat & run a catback... aftermarket of stock diameter up-pipe or the JDM version.
You want to run catless or an upgraded downpipe??? Run in SM.
I think the rules as they are now are quite fair to equalize for most cars.
Just my $0.02
So with the WRX you keep the stock DP, then remove the 3rd cat & run a catback... aftermarket of stock diameter up-pipe or the JDM version.
You want to run catless or an upgraded downpipe??? Run in SM.
I think the rules as they are now are quite fair to equalize for most cars.
Just my $0.02
| trhoppe | 03-17-2003 10:10 AM |
Uhh no :lol:
"Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced by a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit."
I dunno if you misread the rule or anything, but we can replace whatever we want as long as the high flow cat we put in is within 6 inches of the primary unit. The question here is, which one IS the primary unit. IMHO the last cat is always the primary and all the others are "pre cats". We'll see how Dussander's appeal goes and the decision of the SEB will be made then.
In any case, I will be replacing my downpipe, because even though I like the BPM one I have now, the POS is falling apart and rusting. I will wait until the decision has been made before getting a new one though.
-Tom
"Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced by a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit."
I dunno if you misread the rule or anything, but we can replace whatever we want as long as the high flow cat we put in is within 6 inches of the primary unit. The question here is, which one IS the primary unit. IMHO the last cat is always the primary and all the others are "pre cats". We'll see how Dussander's appeal goes and the decision of the SEB will be made then.
In any case, I will be replacing my downpipe, because even though I like the BPM one I have now, the POS is falling apart and rusting. I will wait until the decision has been made before getting a new one though.
-Tom
| KC | 03-17-2003 01:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Uhh no :lol:
"Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced by a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit."
I dunno if you misread the rule or anything, but we can replace whatever we want as long as the high flow cat we put in is within 6 inches of the primary unit. The question here is, which one IS the primary unit. IMHO the last cat is always the primary and all the others are "pre cats". We'll see how Dussander's appeal goes and the decision of the SEB will be made then.
In any case, I will be replacing my downpipe, because even though I like the BPM one I have now, the POS is falling apart and rusting. I will wait until the decision has been made before getting a new one though.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]This is where Tom and I differ... Primary means 1st in line. :) Of highest importance. I beleive the cat in the DP does more work for emissions than the last one. ;)
--kC
[B]Uhh no :lol:
"Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced by a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit."
I dunno if you misread the rule or anything, but we can replace whatever we want as long as the high flow cat we put in is within 6 inches of the primary unit. The question here is, which one IS the primary unit. IMHO the last cat is always the primary and all the others are "pre cats". We'll see how Dussander's appeal goes and the decision of the SEB will be made then.
In any case, I will be replacing my downpipe, because even though I like the BPM one I have now, the POS is falling apart and rusting. I will wait until the decision has been made before getting a new one though.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]This is where Tom and I differ... Primary means 1st in line. :) Of highest importance. I beleive the cat in the DP does more work for emissions than the last one. ;)
--kC
| trhoppe | 03-17-2003 01:33 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]This is where Tom and I differ... Primary means 1st in line. :) Of highest importance. I beleive the cat in the DP does more work for emissions than the last one. ;)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]But Subaru refers to them as the "Front" and "Rear" catalytic converters, so you can't prove which one is "Primary". They need to change the rule back to the old fastrack. I think it was someone's mistake that the 02 fastrack was not included in the 03 rule book.
-Tom
[B]This is where Tom and I differ... Primary means 1st in line. :) Of highest importance. I beleive the cat in the DP does more work for emissions than the last one. ;)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]But Subaru refers to them as the "Front" and "Rear" catalytic converters, so you can't prove which one is "Primary". They need to change the rule back to the old fastrack. I think it was someone's mistake that the 02 fastrack was not included in the 03 rule book.
-Tom
| Dussander | 03-17-2003 02:59 PM |
On that note, I got off my butt and called the SCCA about my Appeal. The are going to call me back since Tazha(sp?) is still in San Diago. I'll post what I learn when I here from them.
| Dussander | 03-17-2003 03:05 PM |
Oh, it looks like the San Diago results are up. There must have been some strange weather. SS got worked by BS and CS. I don't know anyone running over there, but uh, congrats to anyone running! :)
| MNbiker | 03-17-2003 03:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander [/i]
[B]On that note, I got off my butt and called the SCCA about my Appeal. The are going to call me back since Tazha(sp?) is still in San Diago. I'll post what I learn when I here from them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Dussander,
What, exactly is the basis of the protest/appeal? (Cat location, definition of "primary cat", etc.) I'm getting antsy to finish my exhaust system, but REALLY don't want to do it twice!
Thx!
-Steve
[B]On that note, I got off my butt and called the SCCA about my Appeal. The are going to call me back since Tazha(sp?) is still in San Diago. I'll post what I learn when I here from them. [/B][/QUOTE]
Dussander,
What, exactly is the basis of the protest/appeal? (Cat location, definition of "primary cat", etc.) I'm getting antsy to finish my exhaust system, but REALLY don't want to do it twice!
Thx!
-Steve
| Dussander | 03-17-2003 04:41 PM |
The protest was for not having "cat within 6 inches of the primary location." I have a bosal downpipe (no cat) and stock 3rd cat. STi Uppipe (no cat). I actually didn't know they changed the rules for 2003 over the previous 2002 Fastrack rules until I was at the event in Ft. Myers.
I lost the protest but wasn't really punished in any way since it was obvious that the current rule was vague. So, my appeal stated that the rules are unclear, specifically in the "primary" and "within 6 inches" wording. Rob Faulkner basically told me what I needed to do so they could get the rules fixed. Funny thing was that I talked to Howard about the rule before I got protested and he basically stated he just wanted the rule so that cars would remain emissions legal. He didn't realize they had drastically (in my eyes) changed the rules regarding the cats at the last minute (in my case).
My advice is not to do anything with your cats until they update the rule or let me know that they are not changing it. But even then they will have to at least state that the primary cat in a Subaru WRX is the one in the downpipe. And then, the 6 inches thing is a little vague. 6 inches front to front, front to back, back to back, or center to center?
I lost the protest but wasn't really punished in any way since it was obvious that the current rule was vague. So, my appeal stated that the rules are unclear, specifically in the "primary" and "within 6 inches" wording. Rob Faulkner basically told me what I needed to do so they could get the rules fixed. Funny thing was that I talked to Howard about the rule before I got protested and he basically stated he just wanted the rule so that cars would remain emissions legal. He didn't realize they had drastically (in my eyes) changed the rules regarding the cats at the last minute (in my case).
My advice is not to do anything with your cats until they update the rule or let me know that they are not changing it. But even then they will have to at least state that the primary cat in a Subaru WRX is the one in the downpipe. And then, the 6 inches thing is a little vague. 6 inches front to front, front to back, back to back, or center to center?
| trhoppe | 03-17-2003 04:51 PM |
Well also, where does the cat actually "end". Does it end at the end of the actual unit or is the "end" of it where the pipe that its contained in "ends".
Hmmm?
-Tom
Hmmm?
-Tom
| MNbiker | 03-17-2003 10:36 PM |
Personally, I think someone in the SCCA office was asleep at the switch and simply forgot to integrate the 2002 FasTrack exhaust clarification/change into the 2003 rules.:rolleyes:
The SCCA really needs to put the rules online, and post FasTrack changes directly to the pertinent sections, as they're approved. That way, racers would have plenty of opportunities to quickly spot errors, and yearly rulebook production would be a lot easier. Otherwise, we'll continue to see such oversights popping up every year.:mad:
One can hope they someday figure this out!:rolleyes:
-Steve
The SCCA really needs to put the rules online, and post FasTrack changes directly to the pertinent sections, as they're approved. That way, racers would have plenty of opportunities to quickly spot errors, and yearly rulebook production would be a lot easier. Otherwise, we'll continue to see such oversights popping up every year.:mad:
One can hope they someday figure this out!:rolleyes:
-Steve
| TheWRX | 03-18-2003 08:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]Personally, I think someone in the SCCA office was asleep at the switch and simply forgot to integrate the 2002 FasTrack exhaust clarification/change into the 2003 rules.:rolleyes:[/B][/QUOTE]
It's probably not that important how exactly we ended up with this mess, but I disagree with this. If you look at the Fastrack with the original STX rules (Feb 2002) and the later addition to the exhaust rules (June 2002), the combination is very much like what we have now. The 6" restriction was in the original Feb rules. The June addition (I believe it to be an addition, not a replacement) started using the "primary" language that we're having problems with now.
So I think the rules were equally unclear last year. They just missed the opportunity to make them clearer with the 2003 rulebook.
Curiously waiting for the outcome of Dussander's appeal... :(
[B]Personally, I think someone in the SCCA office was asleep at the switch and simply forgot to integrate the 2002 FasTrack exhaust clarification/change into the 2003 rules.:rolleyes:[/B][/QUOTE]
It's probably not that important how exactly we ended up with this mess, but I disagree with this. If you look at the Fastrack with the original STX rules (Feb 2002) and the later addition to the exhaust rules (June 2002), the combination is very much like what we have now. The 6" restriction was in the original Feb rules. The June addition (I believe it to be an addition, not a replacement) started using the "primary" language that we're having problems with now.
So I think the rules were equally unclear last year. They just missed the opportunity to make them clearer with the 2003 rulebook.
Curiously waiting for the outcome of Dussander's appeal... :(
| KC | 03-18-2003 09:44 AM |
Actually, the rule as it's written now IS quite different than the intended verbage from the FasTrack.
Here's the Fastrack:
The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Here's the current rule:
High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original primary unit. Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced with a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit. The resulting configuration must meet federal emissions standards at normal vehicle operating temps.
Now, if I wanted to protest on the current rule, it's worded that we actually cannot remove any cats, just replace all the current multiple ones with high-flows. Ie: Replace mutiple units (near each other) with a single unit. Reasoning? "converter([b]S[/b])"
It leaves too many variables that opens up a possible protest for those of us with multiple cats, because the rule that was written in the fastrack was essentially changed.
The FastTrack states... "We can go down to one, highflow cat (May all be replaced by a single converter)" Notice the lack of wording in the rule regarding 6 inches.
It was changed period. Many of us made preparations over the winter for the season based on the fastrack rule. The Fastrack rule is the one that should and probably will stand for 2003. 2004 may see a better clarification.
Part of the issue at hand IS the changing of the wording from the Tech Bulletin. Because it was a tech bulliten, not a submission for member comment or pending SEB approval, it was an immedate allowance on the ruleset. We could have gone down to one cat immediately following the publication of the FasTrack. ;)
Do you see the difference? The Tech Bulletin says... go to one cat, any cat, with no restrictions. The New Rule in the Rule Boox is quite different. ;)
--kC
Here's the Fastrack:
The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Here's the current rule:
High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original primary unit. Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced with a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit. The resulting configuration must meet federal emissions standards at normal vehicle operating temps.
Now, if I wanted to protest on the current rule, it's worded that we actually cannot remove any cats, just replace all the current multiple ones with high-flows. Ie: Replace mutiple units (near each other) with a single unit. Reasoning? "converter([b]S[/b])"
It leaves too many variables that opens up a possible protest for those of us with multiple cats, because the rule that was written in the fastrack was essentially changed.
The FastTrack states... "We can go down to one, highflow cat (May all be replaced by a single converter)" Notice the lack of wording in the rule regarding 6 inches.
It was changed period. Many of us made preparations over the winter for the season based on the fastrack rule. The Fastrack rule is the one that should and probably will stand for 2003. 2004 may see a better clarification.
Part of the issue at hand IS the changing of the wording from the Tech Bulletin. Because it was a tech bulliten, not a submission for member comment or pending SEB approval, it was an immedate allowance on the ruleset. We could have gone down to one cat immediately following the publication of the FasTrack. ;)
Do you see the difference? The Tech Bulletin says... go to one cat, any cat, with no restrictions. The New Rule in the Rule Boox is quite different. ;)
--kC
| TheWRX | 03-18-2003 10:05 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Do you see the difference? The Tech Bulletin says... go to one cat, any cat, with no restrictions. The New Rule in the Rule Boox is quite different. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes and no. As I said in my previous post, my interpretation (and I may well be wrong about this) is that the Fastrack rule from June was [B]added[/B] to the rules from February, it didn't replace anything. At least I don't see anything there that says that the old rule is removed. So the cat rule effective for the second half of last season would have been the combination of the two:
"High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original unit. The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Anyway, that's all just historical. I think we all agree that the current rule is broken. It doesn't really matter how long it has been that way.
[B]Do you see the difference? The Tech Bulletin says... go to one cat, any cat, with no restrictions. The New Rule in the Rule Boox is quite different. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes and no. As I said in my previous post, my interpretation (and I may well be wrong about this) is that the Fastrack rule from June was [B]added[/B] to the rules from February, it didn't replace anything. At least I don't see anything there that says that the old rule is removed. So the cat rule effective for the second half of last season would have been the combination of the two:
"High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original unit. The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Anyway, that's all just historical. I think we all agree that the current rule is broken. It doesn't really matter how long it has been that way.
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-18-2003 09:09 PM |
Sorry to interrupt your discussion, but Im lost.:confused:
Assuming the point that we can replace all 3 cats with 1 highflow, where would that 1 highflow need to be???
And, what about the size - 2.5" vs. 3"???
Thanks and sorry if I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread..
Assuming the point that we can replace all 3 cats with 1 highflow, where would that 1 highflow need to be???
And, what about the size - 2.5" vs. 3"???
Thanks and sorry if I missed this somewhere earlier in the thread..
| TheWRX | 03-18-2003 09:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]Assuming the point that we can replace all 3 cats with 1 highflow, where would that 1 highflow need to be???[/B][/QUOTE]
That is the $32,000 (or however much it is) question! There was a protest (against Dussander) on exactly this at the National Tour event in Ft. Myers a few weeks ago, and there is an appeal pending. Until the result of this gets published: :confused: .
I was too slow to be protested! :lol:
[B]Assuming the point that we can replace all 3 cats with 1 highflow, where would that 1 highflow need to be???[/B][/QUOTE]
That is the $32,000 (or however much it is) question! There was a protest (against Dussander) on exactly this at the National Tour event in Ft. Myers a few weeks ago, and there is an appeal pending. Until the result of this gets published: :confused: .
I was too slow to be protested! :lol:
| kiko seibt | 03-21-2003 08:32 AM |
SCCA is working
�
�
Doug Gill (SCCA); he is working on the issues; I know he wants
to get it sorted out soon ... stay tuned ....... By Ralph P.
K
to get it sorted out soon ... stay tuned ....... By Ralph P.
K
| ChrisW | 03-21-2003 09:52 AM |
Re: SCCA is working
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kiko seibt [/i]
[B]Doug Gill (SCCA); he is working on the issues; I know he wants
to get it sorted out soon ... stay tuned ....... By Ralph P.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
Is Doug still accepting input on this or is he sufficently overwellmed?
[B]Doug Gill (SCCA); he is working on the issues; I know he wants
to get it sorted out soon ... stay tuned ....... By Ralph P.
K [/B][/QUOTE]
Is Doug still accepting input on this or is he sufficently overwellmed?
| ChrisW | 03-23-2003 10:47 PM |
Well, I talked to Charlie Davis today about this issue and Dussander's protest.
Here's the deal. They (SEB and ST commitee) have a meeting tuesday to discuss this issue amoung other things.
This meeting has already missed the deadline for the May Fasttrack, so it won't be resolved for the next national tour event at Atwater CA.
I asked what the long term plans for STX (street touring in general) and how STX fits within the rules. According to Charlie, Street touring is the "street prepared class of the 21st century" and the SEB is attempting to write the rules to benifet modern cars.
After Charlie explained the intent of Street touring, I asked questions about the direction they were going to take the protest, and the SEB is not sure at this point. I pointed out another issue with the multi-cat rule, basically, what diameter piping can be used with the multi cat rule. I suggested that we adopt the Street prepared rule modified to call for a single cat in the system. I also mentioned that if we are forced to use the stock diameter piping, that they have effectivly banned 95% of the aftermarket exhausts made for most modern import cars, not just the WRX. charlie agreed that this was a very good point, and that no one had thought of this part of the issue before.
Specifically, the protest brought against Dussander, never mentions the diameter of the pipe involved, so their ruling would not have properly address this point.
any how, The meeting is tuesday 3/25.
[b]If we have opinions that want to be heard, email Davis Gill before tuesday!!![/b]
Here's the deal. They (SEB and ST commitee) have a meeting tuesday to discuss this issue amoung other things.
This meeting has already missed the deadline for the May Fasttrack, so it won't be resolved for the next national tour event at Atwater CA.
I asked what the long term plans for STX (street touring in general) and how STX fits within the rules. According to Charlie, Street touring is the "street prepared class of the 21st century" and the SEB is attempting to write the rules to benifet modern cars.
After Charlie explained the intent of Street touring, I asked questions about the direction they were going to take the protest, and the SEB is not sure at this point. I pointed out another issue with the multi-cat rule, basically, what diameter piping can be used with the multi cat rule. I suggested that we adopt the Street prepared rule modified to call for a single cat in the system. I also mentioned that if we are forced to use the stock diameter piping, that they have effectivly banned 95% of the aftermarket exhausts made for most modern import cars, not just the WRX. charlie agreed that this was a very good point, and that no one had thought of this part of the issue before.
Specifically, the protest brought against Dussander, never mentions the diameter of the pipe involved, so their ruling would not have properly address this point.
any how, The meeting is tuesday 3/25.
[b]If we have opinions that want to be heard, email Davis Gill before tuesday!!![/b]
| Subdued | 03-27-2003 02:51 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]any how, The meeting is tuesday 3/25.
[b]If we have opinions that want to be heard, email Davis Gill before tuesday!!![/b] [/B][/QUOTE]Any updates?
[B]any how, The meeting is tuesday 3/25.
[b]If we have opinions that want to be heard, email Davis Gill before tuesday!!![/b] [/B][/QUOTE]Any updates?
| ChrisW | 03-27-2003 06:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subdued [/i]
[B]Any updates? [/B][/QUOTE]
I just got this via email
[QUOTE]
[i]recieved Thu 3/27/2003 3:38 PM[/i]
Hi, Chris,
The SEB talked about this during their last meeting and the consensus was that any size pipe is allowed.
Hope this helps.
Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
[email][email�protected][/email]
[/QUOTE]
[B]Any updates? [/B][/QUOTE]
I just got this via email
[QUOTE]
[i]recieved Thu 3/27/2003 3:38 PM[/i]
Hi, Chris,
The SEB talked about this during their last meeting and the consensus was that any size pipe is allowed.
Hope this helps.
Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
[email][email�protected][/email]
[/QUOTE]
| ChrisW | 03-27-2003 07:09 PM |
and another email to raise our hopes!!!
�
�
we can only hope this is true.
I will be paying close attention to the upcoming fasttracks!!
[QUOTE]
Subject: RE: STX multiple CAT replacement rule.
[b]The ruling will need to be published in FasTrack to be official[/b], but I believe the rear one is going to be ruled as primary. Then I hope the rule is changed to make things easier. I don't think the SEB really cares where the cat is located, it's just hard to write a proper rule so cars can be encouraged to be emissions legal.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
[/QUOTE]
:cool:
I will be paying close attention to the upcoming fasttracks!!
[QUOTE]
Subject: RE: STX multiple CAT replacement rule.
[b]The ruling will need to be published in FasTrack to be official[/b], but I believe the rear one is going to be ruled as primary. Then I hope the rule is changed to make things easier. I don't think the SEB really cares where the cat is located, it's just hard to write a proper rule so cars can be encouraged to be emissions legal.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Solo Technical Manager
[/QUOTE]
:cool:
| Jaxx | 03-30-2003 09:33 PM |
not to pee on anyones parade but the back one is not the primary cat .
It is the cat in the DP. other wise the rear O2 sensor would be after the 3rd cat not inbetween the two
(i won stx today by 1.5 sec :))
It is the cat in the DP. other wise the rear O2 sensor would be after the 3rd cat not inbetween the two
(i won stx today by 1.5 sec :))
| MNbiker | 03-31-2003 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jaxx [/i]
[B]not to pee on anyones parade but the back one is not the primary cat .
It is the cat in the DP. other wise the rear O2 sensor would be after the 3rd cat not inbetween the two[/B][/QUOTE]
As stated elsewhere in this thread, Subaru doesn't actually call either of the cat's "primary". However, I think most everyone's in agreement that the DP cat is the one doing more work.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, as the SEB ruling will dictate what's legal. (come on guys, get that ruling out, so I can order my exhaust system!!!):)
-Steve
[B]not to pee on anyones parade but the back one is not the primary cat .
It is the cat in the DP. other wise the rear O2 sensor would be after the 3rd cat not inbetween the two[/B][/QUOTE]
As stated elsewhere in this thread, Subaru doesn't actually call either of the cat's "primary". However, I think most everyone's in agreement that the DP cat is the one doing more work.
Ultimately, it doesn't really matter, as the SEB ruling will dictate what's legal. (come on guys, get that ruling out, so I can order my exhaust system!!!):)
-Steve
| Orion | 04-01-2003 04:51 PM |
glad to see some response outta the SEB.
i'm keepin' my fingers crossed!:D
i'm keepin' my fingers crossed!:D
| fengshui-fu | 04-04-2003 05:19 PM |
I hope its the first cat which is the primary one, making the perrin DP I have legal. Not that I care, because I wouldn't protest someone on that basis or any other basis short of anti lag or a boost controlling ECU, or some other seriously unbalancing mod. There are sooooo many other factors including tires, wheels, wind, asphalt temp, sneezing, etc. that would lead to a fractionally slower time than certain mods. Then again no one likes naughty nancies running seriously unbalancing stuff in their car. Like running race pipes in STX, etc... I wish you were classified by the SCCA class your car closest resembles, so a near stock car with just and intake would be stock. Oh and R compounds in stock class, whats stock about that?!
chris
chris
| MNbiker | 05-03-2003 07:19 AM |
The June 2003 FasTrack is out, with no references to the exhaust issue.:(
I finally got tired of waiting, and installed an M2 turbo-back system. Hopefully, the one rear-mounted cat will pass muster, if and when the SEB gets around to ruling on this issue.:rolleyes:
-Steve
I finally got tired of waiting, and installed an M2 turbo-back system. Hopefully, the one rear-mounted cat will pass muster, if and when the SEB gets around to ruling on this issue.:rolleyes:
-Steve
| KC | 05-03-2003 08:35 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker [/i]
[B]The June 2003 FasTrack is out, with no references to the exhaust issue.:(
I finally got tired of waiting, and installed an M2 turbo-back system. Hopefully, the one rear-mounted cat will pass muster, if and when the SEB gets around to ruling on this issue.:rolleyes:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]Just point to the June or July fastrack last year. That can't be considered a printing error. :)
[B]The June 2003 FasTrack is out, with no references to the exhaust issue.:(
I finally got tired of waiting, and installed an M2 turbo-back system. Hopefully, the one rear-mounted cat will pass muster, if and when the SEB gets around to ruling on this issue.:rolleyes:
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]Just point to the June or July fastrack last year. That can't be considered a printing error. :)
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