| Fastech | 03-25-2004 12:00 AM |
STX reflash/ECU options revisited (Can o'Worms!!!)
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OK, haven't heard anything in awhile... maybe I missed it?
What was the consensus on ECU mods? Vishnu? ECUTEK? UTEC? E-Manage? Assuming no toying with boost, which of these options (or others) are legal? I know the argument was about the difficulty of policing these things, but kinda lost track/focus/consciousness before I ever absorbed what appeared to be a viable answer.
Sorry if I am re-opening a can of worms (ok, not really...) but I'm ready to play!
Brian Flanagan
Tread Removal Specialist
What was the consensus on ECU mods? Vishnu? ECUTEK? UTEC? E-Manage? Assuming no toying with boost, which of these options (or others) are legal? I know the argument was about the difficulty of policing these things, but kinda lost track/focus/consciousness before I ever absorbed what appeared to be a viable answer.
Sorry if I am re-opening a can of worms (ok, not really...) but I'm ready to play!
Brian Flanagan
Tread Removal Specialist
| TheWRX | 03-25-2004 02:55 AM |
I'll start with the easy one: UTEC is clearly illegal. It takes full control of timing, while the rules only allow modification of the signals [i]into[/i] the ECU.
Vishnu Unichip is legal.
E-manage sounded legal to me when I read the description a fairly long time ago. But I think some people had concerns. Or maybe I'm thinking of the XEDE?
I still believe that an ECU reflash that [i]leaves the boost control maps unchanged[/i] is legal. Even though I have doubts about some maps that are advertised as STX legal.
Yes, policing ECU reflashes is difficult. But I don't see how boost maps are a unique situation. Somebody could reflash the ECU on a (normally aspirated) Stock car to modify timing and fuel. That would be at least as hard to police.
Vishnu Unichip is legal.
E-manage sounded legal to me when I read the description a fairly long time ago. But I think some people had concerns. Or maybe I'm thinking of the XEDE?
I still believe that an ECU reflash that [i]leaves the boost control maps unchanged[/i] is legal. Even though I have doubts about some maps that are advertised as STX legal.
Yes, policing ECU reflashes is difficult. But I don't see how boost maps are a unique situation. Somebody could reflash the ECU on a (normally aspirated) Stock car to modify timing and fuel. That would be at least as hard to police.
| wrx102 | 03-25-2004 05:02 AM |
Cobb's AccessPort comes with an STX legal map.
Found this on Cobb's forum:
[QUOTE]It allows you to switch between a full-out race-gas map, Stage 1, and an STX map that governs boost to stock levels while maintaining the advanced timing etc needed to fully utilize higher octane pump fuel, avoiding any "competitive edge" protests. I'm sure some people will still run the full map (full stage 1 or stage 2), and with this device, make it that much harder to track that they were making X amount of boost on their run number Y.... but I hope that people remain true to the competitive spirit and class themselves accordingly. I believe there are other classes that allow for boost to be modified (SM?), and that many maps will be released for those types of mods (full cat-less turbo-back, etc).[/QUOTE]
Found this on Cobb's forum:
[QUOTE]It allows you to switch between a full-out race-gas map, Stage 1, and an STX map that governs boost to stock levels while maintaining the advanced timing etc needed to fully utilize higher octane pump fuel, avoiding any "competitive edge" protests. I'm sure some people will still run the full map (full stage 1 or stage 2), and with this device, make it that much harder to track that they were making X amount of boost on their run number Y.... but I hope that people remain true to the competitive spirit and class themselves accordingly. I believe there are other classes that allow for boost to be modified (SM?), and that many maps will be released for those types of mods (full cat-less turbo-back, etc).[/QUOTE]
| KC | 03-25-2004 07:24 AM |
[QUOTE]It allows you to switch between a full-out race-gas map, Stage 1, and an STX map that governs boost to stock levels while maintaining the advanced timing etc needed to fully utilize higher octane pump fuel, avoiding any "competitive edge" protests. [/QUOTE]
Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC
Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC
| stxwrxracer | 03-25-2004 08:25 AM |
So, with that said, does that make the Ecutek illegal as well? Or is that something that can be left off the options list when building one?
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
| KC | 03-25-2004 08:32 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by stxwrxracer[/i]
[B] So, with that said, does that make the Ecutek illegal as well? Or is that something that can be left off the options list when building one?
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
They can be deilvered with only one map.
[B] So, with that said, does that make the Ecutek illegal as well? Or is that something that can be left off the options list when building one?
-Mike [/B][/QUOTE]
They can be deilvered with only one map.
| Ben-EcuTeK | 03-25-2004 09:16 AM |
It would be very difficult to know if the boost was left untouch on the EcuTeK or on other ECU reflash.
For the Access ECU the map, boost per exemple could be changed in matter of fews seconds. For the EcuTeK the Mapswitch feature will give the driver access to 2 differents boost maps that can be changed in a fews seconds as well.
In the same time it is very difficult to know for a non-EcuTeK dealer person to confirm that an ECU was flashed or not.
Ben
For the Access ECU the map, boost per exemple could be changed in matter of fews seconds. For the EcuTeK the Mapswitch feature will give the driver access to 2 differents boost maps that can be changed in a fews seconds as well.
In the same time it is very difficult to know for a non-EcuTeK dealer person to confirm that an ECU was flashed or not.
Ben
| trhoppe | 03-25-2004 09:22 AM |
BUT
I can tell with my deltadash, while standing still, if your ECUtek is one that has dual maps loaded on it. All it takes for me is to go into the config screen and then it gives me the option to change between the maps if there are 2. If there is only 1 map, that option is grayed out.
Youre more then welcome to try, but at a national level, we'll find you ;)
Mike/Brian - Get a single map, stock boost, ecutek retune. Then you can allow timing and fuel user tune, while DISSALOWING boost user tune.
Again, the user tune feature for boost is also something you can find with the deltadash just by plugging in and looking at the config menu. On our (mine and MNbiker's) cars the boost option is grayed out.
Either way, again this year, I will be asking the top STX guys to deltadash through 2nd gear so we can check out everyone's boost maps. If you don't let us do that, youre pretty much guaranteed a protest :)
-Tom
I can tell with my deltadash, while standing still, if your ECUtek is one that has dual maps loaded on it. All it takes for me is to go into the config screen and then it gives me the option to change between the maps if there are 2. If there is only 1 map, that option is grayed out.
Youre more then welcome to try, but at a national level, we'll find you ;)
Mike/Brian - Get a single map, stock boost, ecutek retune. Then you can allow timing and fuel user tune, while DISSALOWING boost user tune.
Again, the user tune feature for boost is also something you can find with the deltadash just by plugging in and looking at the config menu. On our (mine and MNbiker's) cars the boost option is grayed out.
Either way, again this year, I will be asking the top STX guys to deltadash through 2nd gear so we can check out everyone's boost maps. If you don't let us do that, youre pretty much guaranteed a protest :)
-Tom
| Ben-EcuTeK | 03-25-2004 09:34 AM |
Tom,
I did not know if you had access to a DeltaDash, having one makes-it easy to check.
Ben
I did not know if you had access to a DeltaDash, having one makes-it easy to check.
Ben
| KC | 03-25-2004 09:48 AM |
Can deltadash also check AccessECU or any other program that could be run on a laptop?
| trhoppe | 03-25-2004 10:00 AM |
Deltadash is only for ECUtek products.
From what I heard, isn't the AccessECU also a ECUtek product though :confused: ?
Trey from Cobb he was going to be at nationals and offer to show the boost maps of the cars running the AccessECU. Dunno if thats going to happen though.
-Tom
From what I heard, isn't the AccessECU also a ECUtek product though :confused: ?
Trey from Cobb he was going to be at nationals and offer to show the boost maps of the cars running the AccessECU. Dunno if thats going to happen though.
-Tom
| Ben-EcuTeK | 03-25-2004 10:16 AM |
No the AccessECU is not a EcuTeK product.
This is another subject taht should be discussed in another forums...
But:
EcuTek dealers uses a software called Flash2002 that gives them access to the ECU programing. It leaves the entire responsability to the tuner to make a good map for your car.
AccessECU is a reprogramed ECU, the maps are prepared by Cobb and are not accessible by anybody else but them. It gives you access to modify temporarely some other parameters as well.
You can do the same on the DeltaDash if your ECU is programed for.
DeltaDash could log the boost, on an ECU that was reprogramed by AccessECU as well.
Hope this help you in any way
Ben
This is another subject taht should be discussed in another forums...
But:
EcuTek dealers uses a software called Flash2002 that gives them access to the ECU programing. It leaves the entire responsability to the tuner to make a good map for your car.
AccessECU is a reprogramed ECU, the maps are prepared by Cobb and are not accessible by anybody else but them. It gives you access to modify temporarely some other parameters as well.
You can do the same on the DeltaDash if your ECU is programed for.
DeltaDash could log the boost, on an ECU that was reprogramed by AccessECU as well.
Hope this help you in any way
Ben
| dwx | 03-25-2004 10:25 AM |
Trey should be there with the new Conebasher car and I think he was trying to come up with a device that could tell if the boost maps had been altered depending on the year of the car/model ECU. He may chime in soon in this thread.
They are coming out with a product called the AccessTuner which will allow tuners live tuning of the ECU and reflash capability, they already use it to tune cars on their dyno but it's not packaged for regular consumption as of yet. When that comes out then more than just Cobb will offer AccessECU retunes. Right now they are planning on releasing an AccessTuner version to the public and it will have full retune capabilities, just the tuner version isn't tied to a single ECU.
They are coming out with a product called the AccessTuner which will allow tuners live tuning of the ECU and reflash capability, they already use it to tune cars on their dyno but it's not packaged for regular consumption as of yet. When that comes out then more than just Cobb will offer AccessECU retunes. Right now they are planning on releasing an AccessTuner version to the public and it will have full retune capabilities, just the tuner version isn't tied to a single ECU.
| KC | 03-25-2004 10:43 AM |
Ok... what we need is a baseline for boost and this is a part that has been a thorn in my side since day one.
"What is the 'Stock' map"? Who has 'the' stock map that we can compare against tuned cars for legality? Does every WRX use the same exact map? Instinct tells me no, they don't. What about between years? Were there changes to it in 1/2 year cycles? Who has that information?
In order for us to verify that 'the stock map' hasn't been changed, we need the 'stock' map to verify it against and it should be readily available for people to view.
I know Trey and others have said they don't touch the stock map. That's great. but how can that be verifieid in the case of a protest. We need a baseline, a real stock map, so when we plug the delta dash into the ECU, we can see that it really hasn't changed... at all.
--kC
"What is the 'Stock' map"? Who has 'the' stock map that we can compare against tuned cars for legality? Does every WRX use the same exact map? Instinct tells me no, they don't. What about between years? Were there changes to it in 1/2 year cycles? Who has that information?
In order for us to verify that 'the stock map' hasn't been changed, we need the 'stock' map to verify it against and it should be readily available for people to view.
I know Trey and others have said they don't touch the stock map. That's great. but how can that be verifieid in the case of a protest. We need a baseline, a real stock map, so when we plug the delta dash into the ECU, we can see that it really hasn't changed... at all.
--kC
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2004 10:53 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
With the Cobb Access ECU, I could simply remove the access port from the car and have NO WAY of changing maps.
[B]Dual Map ECUs are not legal becuase they can be switched from within the cabin after a run by a simple combination of inputs (in the case of ECUTek...gas+defroster after parking)
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
With the Cobb Access ECU, I could simply remove the access port from the car and have NO WAY of changing maps.
| KC | 03-25-2004 11:01 AM |
how big is this access port unit?
what I'm getting at is if you can do it during, say, impound at a pro solo where peole really don't watch the cars...but after all the protests have been settled during normal competiton... if it can be done easily, then it should be as illegal. If it means opening the door, plugging it in, going click, and removing it in 15 seconds, I for one would have a BIG problem with that.
Again, not saying anyone here would do such a thing... but if it's as simple as that, it shouldn't be allowed.
--kC
what I'm getting at is if you can do it during, say, impound at a pro solo where peole really don't watch the cars...but after all the protests have been settled during normal competiton... if it can be done easily, then it should be as illegal. If it means opening the door, plugging it in, going click, and removing it in 15 seconds, I for one would have a BIG problem with that.
Again, not saying anyone here would do such a thing... but if it's as simple as that, it shouldn't be allowed.
--kC
| zosima | 03-25-2004 11:02 AM |
figured I would poke my nose in here...
1) Why is running 2 maps illegal? Can't you check that both maps have stock boost levels or am I missing something?
2) How much is gained up by an STX-legal ECU tune? does anyone have actual before/after dyno plots?
1) Why is running 2 maps illegal? Can't you check that both maps have stock boost levels or am I missing something?
2) How much is gained up by an STX-legal ECU tune? does anyone have actual before/after dyno plots?
| ExitVisa | 03-25-2004 11:03 AM |
Good point, KC
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Ok... what we need is a baseline for boost and this is a part that has been a thorn in my side since day one.
"What is the 'Stock' map"? Who has 'the' stock map that we can compare against tuned cars for legality? Does every WRX use the same exact map? Instinct tells me no, they don't. What about between years? Were there changes to it in 1/2 year cycles? Who has that information?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you think we could talk SOA into providing the SCCA with a baseline map? I would volunteer to have the ECU in my car read since I haven't done anything to it but as KC points out, we still wouldn't know for sure if it is 'the' stock map.
[B]Ok... what we need is a baseline for boost and this is a part that has been a thorn in my side since day one.
"What is the 'Stock' map"? Who has 'the' stock map that we can compare against tuned cars for legality? Does every WRX use the same exact map? Instinct tells me no, they don't. What about between years? Were there changes to it in 1/2 year cycles? Who has that information?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Do you think we could talk SOA into providing the SCCA with a baseline map? I would volunteer to have the ECU in my car read since I haven't done anything to it but as KC points out, we still wouldn't know for sure if it is 'the' stock map.
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2004 11:12 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]how big is this access port unit?
what I'm getting at is if you can do it during, say, impound at a pro solo where peole really don't watch the cars...but after all the protests have been settled during normal competiton... if it can be done easily, then it should be as illegal. If it means opening the door, plugging it in, going click, and removing it in 15 seconds, I for one would have a BIG problem with that.
Again, not saying anyone here would do such a thing... but if it's as simple as that, it shouldn't be allowed.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Point taken..........
I believe its matter of plugging into the plug under the dash (having brain fart and cant remember what its called) and synching it with the car, then making your change. Any real delay would probably be in the synch part, but I dont know how long it takes.
[QUOTE]2) How much is gained up by an STX-legal ECU tune? does anyone have actual before/after dyno plots?[/QUOTE]
From Cobbs site [url]http://www.cobbtuning.com/wrx/accessport/[/url]
STX 93 oct STX legal map using 93 octane fuel. For auto-x use. Requires stock intake and turboback exhaust. 270HP / 270 ft-lbs. Cat Efficiency and EGT CEL's removed.
[B]how big is this access port unit?
what I'm getting at is if you can do it during, say, impound at a pro solo where peole really don't watch the cars...but after all the protests have been settled during normal competiton... if it can be done easily, then it should be as illegal. If it means opening the door, plugging it in, going click, and removing it in 15 seconds, I for one would have a BIG problem with that.
Again, not saying anyone here would do such a thing... but if it's as simple as that, it shouldn't be allowed.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Point taken..........
I believe its matter of plugging into the plug under the dash (having brain fart and cant remember what its called) and synching it with the car, then making your change. Any real delay would probably be in the synch part, but I dont know how long it takes.
[QUOTE]2) How much is gained up by an STX-legal ECU tune? does anyone have actual before/after dyno plots?[/QUOTE]
From Cobbs site [url]http://www.cobbtuning.com/wrx/accessport/[/url]
STX 93 oct STX legal map using 93 octane fuel. For auto-x use. Requires stock intake and turboback exhaust. 270HP / 270 ft-lbs. Cat Efficiency and EGT CEL's removed.
| zosima | 03-25-2004 11:21 AM |
wrx2.0 555: thanks... I was hoping to get some idea what stock intake + stock ECU + turboback did on the same dyno to compare. (or other practical experience).
Edit: actually, since I doubt Cobb has an engine dyno, those are probably guesses, and a little less scientific than I had hoped for.
Edit: actually, since I doubt Cobb has an engine dyno, those are probably guesses, and a little less scientific than I had hoped for.
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2004 11:22 AM |
Re: Good point, KC
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by dcargile [/i]
[B]Do you think we could talk SOA into providing the SCCA with a baseline map? I would volunteer to have the ECU in my car read since I haven't done anything to it but as KC points out, we still wouldn't know for sure if it is 'the' stock map. [/B][/QUOTE]
Cobb already has this........
You have to understand what they did. They broke the code of the stock ecu. So they can see the stock map settings as they came from the factory. Their reflashes are altering the STOCK settings to suit their needs. IMO, thats why theirs is superior to piggy backs or other stand alones, but thats a whole other conversation. ;)
[B]Do you think we could talk SOA into providing the SCCA with a baseline map? I would volunteer to have the ECU in my car read since I haven't done anything to it but as KC points out, we still wouldn't know for sure if it is 'the' stock map. [/B][/QUOTE]
Cobb already has this........
You have to understand what they did. They broke the code of the stock ecu. So they can see the stock map settings as they came from the factory. Their reflashes are altering the STOCK settings to suit their needs. IMO, thats why theirs is superior to piggy backs or other stand alones, but thats a whole other conversation. ;)
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2004 11:47 AM |
Are the mods fighting today?
How many more times is this thread going to bounce? :alien:
Yes, its engine management, but the topic is in regards to STX legality, so this belongs in the motorsports forum.
How many more times is this thread going to bounce? :alien:
Yes, its engine management, but the topic is in regards to STX legality, so this belongs in the motorsports forum.
| KC | 03-25-2004 11:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
[B] Cobb already has this........
You have to understand what they did. They broke the code of the stock ecu. So they can see the stock map settings as they came from the factory. Their reflashes are altering the STOCK settings to suit their needs. IMO, thats why theirs is superior to piggy backs or other stand alones, but thats a whole other conversation. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
"I have the stock map too... here, on my laptop... want to see it?" ;)
Unless it comes from an official source, again, no offence to Cobb, they're a great and reputable company that's offered quite a bit for Subarus... in the eyes of competitors, that's not going tohold water... especially when it's their product that's being protested.
--kC
[B] Cobb already has this........
You have to understand what they did. They broke the code of the stock ecu. So they can see the stock map settings as they came from the factory. Their reflashes are altering the STOCK settings to suit their needs. IMO, thats why theirs is superior to piggy backs or other stand alones, but thats a whole other conversation. ;) [/B][/QUOTE]
"I have the stock map too... here, on my laptop... want to see it?" ;)
Unless it comes from an official source, again, no offence to Cobb, they're a great and reputable company that's offered quite a bit for Subarus... in the eyes of competitors, that's not going tohold water... especially when it's their product that's being protested.
--kC
| Ben-EcuTeK | 03-25-2004 12:42 PM |
Another thing:
1-Just by changing the exhaust system the boost pressure might spike a little, without modifiying the Boost map.
2-An individual could change the restritor pill in the boost contol system and gain boost at a lower RPM from it, stock is 1.2mm Dia.
3-Even with DeltaDash and some good logs, only a EcuTeK Dealer or probably Cobb could be in mesure to tell if one of many boost maps (compensation maps) where modified.
4-With ingnition Retard you could gain boost, not alot of power but boost.
5-There is 12 recorded differents ECU for the North American market WRX... from 2002 to 2004, most of them have small difference in boost maps.
a stock wrx should make a peak boost of 14.3 PSI and taper down to 10 psi at redline.
Ben
1-Just by changing the exhaust system the boost pressure might spike a little, without modifiying the Boost map.
2-An individual could change the restritor pill in the boost contol system and gain boost at a lower RPM from it, stock is 1.2mm Dia.
3-Even with DeltaDash and some good logs, only a EcuTeK Dealer or probably Cobb could be in mesure to tell if one of many boost maps (compensation maps) where modified.
4-With ingnition Retard you could gain boost, not alot of power but boost.
5-There is 12 recorded differents ECU for the North American market WRX... from 2002 to 2004, most of them have small difference in boost maps.
a stock wrx should make a peak boost of 14.3 PSI and taper down to 10 psi at redline.
Ben
| KC | 03-25-2004 12:56 PM |
1-Just by changing the exhaust system the boost pressure might spike a little, without modifiying the Boost map.
-- That is legal. Any boost changes done by a legal MECHANICAL mod are legal. (Ie: exhaust)
2-An individual could change the restritor pill in the boost contol system and gain boost at a lower RPM from it, stock is 1.2mm Dia.
-- Illegal, and is checked easily, and has been checked.
3-Even with DeltaDash and some good logs, only a EcuTeK Dealer or probably Cobb could be in mesure to tell if one of many boost maps (compensation maps) where modified.
-- Right. Thats part of the issue.
5-There is 12 recorded differents ECU for the North American market WRX... from 2002 to 2004, most of them have small difference in boost maps.
-- Thank you. This is my point entirely. What is 'stock' if there's different maps for different productions? Which is the 'stock' map that must be adhered to for the car? No one other than SOA or maybe only SOJ have the maps for the cars produced and know the production numbers that could match them up to the vins.
Updating/Backdating is not legal in the class, so a 2003 boost map is definitely not legal on a 2002 car.
Can 'o worms is right.
Cobb as instisted they have a 'stock' map that is STX legal. So does those that use the ECUTek. What's to stop them from putting a modified curve that takes the best of all the maps available and putting them on cars that came delivered with a car that maybe had a boost curve that was down 5% at 4K rpm? You've just modified the boost curve. Small as it might be, it's still not 'stock'.
IMHO, that makes only the unichip legal.
6.) a stock wrx should make a peak boost of 14.3 PSI and taper down to 10 psi at redline.
What gear? 2nd? It's my understanding that my WRX doesn't make full boost in 1st gear.
My car never made 14.3 in 2nd gear either. tops is around 13.7.
I may be rehashing the same arguement, and I'm sorry for that. But I still contend that there's no way that any tuner is using the exact same map from the car that was delivered, that is receiving the 'stx legal' map. Lets say that Cobb can D/L the map from my ECU. Who's to prove they re-used it and didn't replace it with a 2003 map?
Any map from a car that was made 6 months later cuold be protested as not having a stock map... again, no update-backdate.
Sorry I seem like the bad guy in all this. But I feel if SOA can't read the Maps, but a tuner can? I find that hard to fathom. However, the possibility exists as I've seen stranger things. :)
--kC
-- That is legal. Any boost changes done by a legal MECHANICAL mod are legal. (Ie: exhaust)
2-An individual could change the restritor pill in the boost contol system and gain boost at a lower RPM from it, stock is 1.2mm Dia.
-- Illegal, and is checked easily, and has been checked.
3-Even with DeltaDash and some good logs, only a EcuTeK Dealer or probably Cobb could be in mesure to tell if one of many boost maps (compensation maps) where modified.
-- Right. Thats part of the issue.
5-There is 12 recorded differents ECU for the North American market WRX... from 2002 to 2004, most of them have small difference in boost maps.
-- Thank you. This is my point entirely. What is 'stock' if there's different maps for different productions? Which is the 'stock' map that must be adhered to for the car? No one other than SOA or maybe only SOJ have the maps for the cars produced and know the production numbers that could match them up to the vins.
Updating/Backdating is not legal in the class, so a 2003 boost map is definitely not legal on a 2002 car.
Can 'o worms is right.
Cobb as instisted they have a 'stock' map that is STX legal. So does those that use the ECUTek. What's to stop them from putting a modified curve that takes the best of all the maps available and putting them on cars that came delivered with a car that maybe had a boost curve that was down 5% at 4K rpm? You've just modified the boost curve. Small as it might be, it's still not 'stock'.
IMHO, that makes only the unichip legal.
6.) a stock wrx should make a peak boost of 14.3 PSI and taper down to 10 psi at redline.
What gear? 2nd? It's my understanding that my WRX doesn't make full boost in 1st gear.
My car never made 14.3 in 2nd gear either. tops is around 13.7.
I may be rehashing the same arguement, and I'm sorry for that. But I still contend that there's no way that any tuner is using the exact same map from the car that was delivered, that is receiving the 'stx legal' map. Lets say that Cobb can D/L the map from my ECU. Who's to prove they re-used it and didn't replace it with a 2003 map?
Any map from a car that was made 6 months later cuold be protested as not having a stock map... again, no update-backdate.
Sorry I seem like the bad guy in all this. But I feel if SOA can't read the Maps, but a tuner can? I find that hard to fathom. However, the possibility exists as I've seen stranger things. :)
--kC
| TyrannoSullyRex | 03-25-2004 01:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]My car never made 14.3 in 2nd gear either. tops is around 13.7. [/B][/QUOTE]
And mine (just exhaust) regularly makes 14.5 (peak) in 2nd gear (as it did when it was bone stock), this is according to my PSI3 which pulls it right off Subaru Select.
Just a comparison of what is a "stock" boost map.
[B]My car never made 14.3 in 2nd gear either. tops is around 13.7. [/B][/QUOTE]
And mine (just exhaust) regularly makes 14.5 (peak) in 2nd gear (as it did when it was bone stock), this is according to my PSI3 which pulls it right off Subaru Select.
Just a comparison of what is a "stock" boost map.
| trhoppe | 03-25-2004 02:03 PM |
Mine spikes at 15 then drops to 13.5 then to 14 and then to 10 by redline :)
-Tom
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 03-25-2004 02:07 PM |
Clearly illegal!
:p
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Mine spikes at 15 then drops to 13.5 then to 14 and then to 10 by redline :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
:p
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] Mine spikes at 15 then drops to 13.5 then to 14 and then to 10 by redline :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
| leecea | 03-25-2004 02:32 PM |
Here's another spin on the question. What happens to me running my stock WRX in DS when someone protests me for having had my ECU reflashed. We just said that you can gain power without a boost change, so boost is no good. Plus, my car is stock so I have no boost gauge or Delta Dash or anything, and some vendors say their reflash is invisible to Subaru dealers anyway, so who can tell?
According to the SCCA Web site... "Competitors are responsible for having appropriate rules and documentation of specifications available for the inspectors' use."
So, not only do I have no specification for the ECU but I have no way of reading the ECU anyway. So I have no way to rebutt to accusation.
Am I missing something in this scenario?
According to the SCCA Web site... "Competitors are responsible for having appropriate rules and documentation of specifications available for the inspectors' use."
So, not only do I have no specification for the ECU but I have no way of reading the ECU anyway. So I have no way to rebutt to accusation.
Am I missing something in this scenario?
| trhoppe | 03-25-2004 02:41 PM |
Looks like you and mike king are both illegal :banana:
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 03-25-2004 02:45 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by leecea[/i]
[B] Here's another spin on the question. What happens to me running my stock WRX in DS when someone protests me for having had my ECU reflashed. We just said that you can gain power without a boost change, so boost is no good. Plus, my car is stock so I have no boost gauge or Delta Dash or anything, and some vendors say their reflash is invisible to Subaru dealers anyway, so who can tell?
According to the SCCA Web site... "Competitors are responsible for having appropriate rules and documentation of specifications available for the inspectors' use."
So, not only do I have no specification for the ECU but I have no way of reading the ECU anyway. So I have no way to rebutt to accusation.
Am I missing something in this scenario? [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope. You're guilty until proved innocent! :banana:
[B] Here's another spin on the question. What happens to me running my stock WRX in DS when someone protests me for having had my ECU reflashed. We just said that you can gain power without a boost change, so boost is no good. Plus, my car is stock so I have no boost gauge or Delta Dash or anything, and some vendors say their reflash is invisible to Subaru dealers anyway, so who can tell?
According to the SCCA Web site... "Competitors are responsible for having appropriate rules and documentation of specifications available for the inspectors' use."
So, not only do I have no specification for the ECU but I have no way of reading the ECU anyway. So I have no way to rebutt to accusation.
Am I missing something in this scenario? [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope. You're guilty until proved innocent! :banana:
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-25-2004 02:46 PM |
What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?
I dont think "What ifs?" are in the rule book.
I have the right to modify my stock map as long as I dont modify boost. Until they start noting specific make and models of devices that are legal/illegal, how I do it shouldnt matter.
You have the right to protest.
Clear as mud.:devil:
I dont think "What ifs?" are in the rule book.
I have the right to modify my stock map as long as I dont modify boost. Until they start noting specific make and models of devices that are legal/illegal, how I do it shouldnt matter.
You have the right to protest.
Clear as mud.:devil:
| KC | 03-25-2004 03:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
[B] What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?
I dont think "What ifs?" are in the rule book.
I have the right to modify my stock map as long as I dont modify boost. Until they start noting specific make and models of devices that are legal/illegal, how I do it shouldnt matter.
You have the right to protest.
Clear as mud.:devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
That's actually quite true. You're fine until you're protested, then it's up to the protestor to provide proof that it's illegal. If it requores the posting of a bond (set by the PC) then the ECU must be verified. The next question is ... how? :)
--kC
[B] What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?What if?
I dont think "What ifs?" are in the rule book.
I have the right to modify my stock map as long as I dont modify boost. Until they start noting specific make and models of devices that are legal/illegal, how I do it shouldnt matter.
You have the right to protest.
Clear as mud.:devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
That's actually quite true. You're fine until you're protested, then it's up to the protestor to provide proof that it's illegal. If it requores the posting of a bond (set by the PC) then the ECU must be verified. The next question is ... how? :)
--kC
| Fastech | 03-25-2004 08:31 PM |
Holyschitt!!! Look at all o'them worms!!! Worms everywhere! Don't step on them, they'll get all over your shoe, and maybe divide and multiply and proliferate or some such things.
Thanks guys, you're all giving me a headache!!!:eek: Seriously, I appreciate the... uhhh... advice, however muddled it may be at this time.
I want more toys, dammit!!! Let's just all decide to run a boatload of boost!!! (ok, just kidding...)
Brian Flanagan
man with can opener and fishing pole in hand:devil:
Thanks guys, you're all giving me a headache!!!:eek: Seriously, I appreciate the... uhhh... advice, however muddled it may be at this time.
I want more toys, dammit!!! Let's just all decide to run a boatload of boost!!! (ok, just kidding...)
Brian Flanagan
man with can opener and fishing pole in hand:devil:
| BriDrive | 03-30-2004 02:15 PM |
"...Either way, again this year, I will be asking the top STX guys to deltadash through 2nd gear so we can check out everyone's boost maps. If you don't let us do that, youre pretty much guaranteed a protest :)" -Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Isn't this the job of the chief of compliance of the protest committee or is that just for ProSolo events?
That could be alot of $100 bills if some fast folks showed up at an event and didn't want to submit to your self mandated testing.:eek:
Isn't this the job of the chief of compliance of the protest committee or is that just for ProSolo events?
That could be alot of $100 bills if some fast folks showed up at an event and didn't want to submit to your self mandated testing.:eek:
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 02:19 PM |
There are only a few fast STX folks in WRXs (at least so far ;) )
-Tom
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-30-2004 03:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]There are only a few fast STX folks in WRXs (at least so far ;) )
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Dont suppose you deltadashed MK's ride? :alien:
MMMmmmmm, I didnt think so.......... :devil:
[B]There are only a few fast STX folks in WRXs (at least so far ;) )
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Dont suppose you deltadashed MK's ride? :alien:
MMMmmmmm, I didnt think so.......... :devil:
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 03:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555[/i]
[B] Dont suppose you deltadashed MK's ride? :alien:
MMMmmmmm, I didnt think so.......... :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
?:confused:?
-Tom
[B] Dont suppose you deltadashed MK's ride? :alien:
MMMmmmmm, I didnt think so.......... :devil: [/B][/QUOTE]
?:confused:?
-Tom
| BriDrive | 03-30-2004 03:22 PM |
I think COBB should just sponsor all "fast guys" in STX WRX's by supplying free accessports.....
Hey Trey ! ! ! ! Are you listening?
I can't wait to move on past this STX WRX glitch.
You know, each accessport is keyed to that vehicles ECU. Why not install the STX map in the presence of a steward and then hand over your port until the end of the event. I think it would not be that hard to verify the Cobb STX map complies with the rules. Everyones happy. Except KC who doesn't want one and doesn't want anyone else to have one either....:lol:
Hey Trey ! ! ! ! Are you listening?
I can't wait to move on past this STX WRX glitch.
You know, each accessport is keyed to that vehicles ECU. Why not install the STX map in the presence of a steward and then hand over your port until the end of the event. I think it would not be that hard to verify the Cobb STX map complies with the rules. Everyones happy. Except KC who doesn't want one and doesn't want anyone else to have one either....:lol:
| KC | 03-30-2004 03:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive [/i]
[B] Everyones happy. Except KC who doesn't want one and doesn't want anyone else to have one either....:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey! I never said that 2nd half of that statement buddy! :furious:
Go ahead and run yer ECUs. I don't need one. :D
[B] Everyones happy. Except KC who doesn't want one and doesn't want anyone else to have one either....:lol: [/B][/QUOTE]
Hey! I never said that 2nd half of that statement buddy! :furious:
Go ahead and run yer ECUs. I don't need one. :D
| MNbiker | 03-30-2004 03:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by BriDrive [/i]
[B]I can't wait to move on past this STX WRX glitch. [/B][/QUOTE]
:huh: :confused:
This "glitch", as you call it, is is a growing concern for ALL new cars, not just the WRX. With increasingly sophisticated ECU's being released by car manufacturers every year, the SCCA faces big-time challenges policing ECU modifications. In the scheme of things, WRX's are easy - you have ECUtek (easily detectable) or AccessECU (supposedly COBB can detect). For some cars (Audi/VW for example), there are a bunch of ECU tuners out there, with no easy means to detect their handiwork. It doesn't help that manufacturers aren't always good at publishing "factory" tuning specifications. For example, what exactly is the stock boost curve for a WRX? As far as I'm aware, Subaru has never published such information.
The SCCA has some big decisions to make in the next couple years, regarding how to police/regulate ECU mods.
-Steve
[B]I can't wait to move on past this STX WRX glitch. [/B][/QUOTE]
:huh: :confused:
This "glitch", as you call it, is is a growing concern for ALL new cars, not just the WRX. With increasingly sophisticated ECU's being released by car manufacturers every year, the SCCA faces big-time challenges policing ECU modifications. In the scheme of things, WRX's are easy - you have ECUtek (easily detectable) or AccessECU (supposedly COBB can detect). For some cars (Audi/VW for example), there are a bunch of ECU tuners out there, with no easy means to detect their handiwork. It doesn't help that manufacturers aren't always good at publishing "factory" tuning specifications. For example, what exactly is the stock boost curve for a WRX? As far as I'm aware, Subaru has never published such information.
The SCCA has some big decisions to make in the next couple years, regarding how to police/regulate ECU mods.
-Steve
| BriDrive | 03-30-2004 03:38 PM |
And I was just playing with you...you know that I hope !
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-30-2004 03:43 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Either way, again this year, I will be asking the top STX guys to deltadash through 2nd gear so we can check out everyone's boost maps. If you don't let us do that, youre pretty much guaranteed a protest :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]?:confused:?[/B][/QUOTE]
Does that mean you DID deltadash Mikes or you DIDNT :confused:
Do you force your test on people that DONT beat you or do you select a certain number of top spots.
Just curious, thats all. I need to know what to expect next season. [I]assuming you're still in STX of course[/I]
[B]Either way, again this year, I will be asking the top STX guys to deltadash through 2nd gear so we can check out everyone's boost maps. If you don't let us do that, youre pretty much guaranteed a protest :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]?:confused:?[/B][/QUOTE]
Does that mean you DID deltadash Mikes or you DIDNT :confused:
Do you force your test on people that DONT beat you or do you select a certain number of top spots.
Just curious, thats all. I need to know what to expect next season. [I]assuming you're still in STX of course[/I]
| KC | 03-30-2004 03:49 PM |
The top guys at nationals this year all [I]agreed[/I] to letting Tom run the DeltaDash. Top guys are defined as guys that had won or were close to winning ProSolo and National Tours from around the country who were at Nationals.
The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC
The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 03:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] The top guys at nationals this year all [I]agreed[/I] to letting Tom run the DeltaDash. Top guys are defined as guys that had won or were close to winning ProSolo and National Tours from around the country who were a Nationals.
Yes, not everyone was asked. The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
What he said..... :)
There is no "force" or anything. It was a friendly "lemme deltadash your car" sort of thing. I will do the same thing this year as I think josh s. and mike k. both won't mind. I haven't seen any other WRXs then those 2 win STX in any Pros or Tours.
-Tom
[B] The top guys at nationals this year all [I]agreed[/I] to letting Tom run the DeltaDash. Top guys are defined as guys that had won or were close to winning ProSolo and National Tours from around the country who were a Nationals.
Yes, not everyone was asked. The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
What he said..... :)
There is no "force" or anything. It was a friendly "lemme deltadash your car" sort of thing. I will do the same thing this year as I think josh s. and mike k. both won't mind. I haven't seen any other WRXs then those 2 win STX in any Pros or Tours.
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 03-30-2004 03:55 PM |
Thanks KC.
I had to assume, from the statements, that the same "testing" was happening this year.
+/- 3 hp is certainly interesting. I'm curious what variety of setups where included in this group.
I had to assume, from the statements, that the same "testing" was happening this year.
+/- 3 hp is certainly interesting. I'm curious what variety of setups where included in this group.
| BriDrive | 03-30-2004 04:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] :huh: :confused:
For example, what exactly is the stock boost curve for a WRX? As far as I'm aware, Subaru has never published such information.
The SCCA has some big decisions to make in the next couple years, regarding how to police/regulate ECU mods.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
A stock boost curve is defined by the table parameters which manage boost control. This 'curve' may be somewhat different from car to car and from year to year. What isn't different is the TABLE PARAMETERS defining that curve for that specific car for that specific year. If it can be demonstrated that this table has been unmodified, then it is LEGAL. Cobb can easily pass this test.
The real problem of contention here is verification. The ECUTek being peaked at with a deltadash per Hoppe isn't any more guarantee that it is legal than witnessing a load up of the Accessport STX map.
Cobb at least can demonstrate directly by showing the tables...
Then once this is accepted, use my solution: Load STX map under supervision of steward and then hand over the accessport until the end of the event. Only THAT Accessport works on THAT ECU...PERIOD. Its really an easy solution.
BriDrive
[B] :huh: :confused:
For example, what exactly is the stock boost curve for a WRX? As far as I'm aware, Subaru has never published such information.
The SCCA has some big decisions to make in the next couple years, regarding how to police/regulate ECU mods.
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
A stock boost curve is defined by the table parameters which manage boost control. This 'curve' may be somewhat different from car to car and from year to year. What isn't different is the TABLE PARAMETERS defining that curve for that specific car for that specific year. If it can be demonstrated that this table has been unmodified, then it is LEGAL. Cobb can easily pass this test.
The real problem of contention here is verification. The ECUTek being peaked at with a deltadash per Hoppe isn't any more guarantee that it is legal than witnessing a load up of the Accessport STX map.
Cobb at least can demonstrate directly by showing the tables...
Then once this is accepted, use my solution: Load STX map under supervision of steward and then hand over the accessport until the end of the event. Only THAT Accessport works on THAT ECU...PERIOD. Its really an easy solution.
BriDrive
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 04:03 PM |
1) dyno tuned 93 octane map, 3" turboback, stock intake, dunno about pulleys (mnbiker)
2) "guess tuned" 93 octane map, 3" turboback, CAI, ECUtek, dunno about pulley (kiko)
3) "guess tuned" 93 octane map, 3" turboback, K&N filter, pulley (mine)
4) stock ECU, 2.5" turboback, CAI, no pulleys (KC)
I think the *only* benefit out of the ECUtek, is to get user tune for the fuel and timing, add pump 100 octane and up timing and pull fuel. With 93 octane, I believe it does the same thing as a CAI.
-Tom
2) "guess tuned" 93 octane map, 3" turboback, CAI, ECUtek, dunno about pulley (kiko)
3) "guess tuned" 93 octane map, 3" turboback, K&N filter, pulley (mine)
4) stock ECU, 2.5" turboback, CAI, no pulleys (KC)
I think the *only* benefit out of the ECUtek, is to get user tune for the fuel and timing, add pump 100 octane and up timing and pull fuel. With 93 octane, I believe it does the same thing as a CAI.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 04:05 PM |
If I can prove with the deltadash what your boost curve is in 2nd gear up the road, and you have no ability to "change" it with a "dual boost map" ECU, then I consider you legal.
So if you have a COBB AccessECU, you should do what you say. Us with ECUteks can prove we have a single boost map with the deltadash and then run the car to check the boost levels. That is the only solution I can think of.
-Tom
So if you have a COBB AccessECU, you should do what you say. Us with ECUteks can prove we have a single boost map with the deltadash and then run the car to check the boost levels. That is the only solution I can think of.
-Tom
| KC | 03-30-2004 04:05 PM |
4) stock ECU, 2.5" turboback, CAI, no pulleys, [B]Header/Uppipe[/B] (KC)
Just wanted to throw that in there as there's no way just a TBE with a highflow and a CAI would be making about 200hp. ;)
--kC
Just wanted to throw that in there as there's no way just a TBE with a highflow and a CAI would be making about 200hp. ;)
--kC
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 04:06 PM |
oops, header/uppipe on all 4 cars.
-Tom
-Tom
| stxwrxracer | 03-30-2004 04:10 PM |
Actually, I think I might have to sit that one out and go through the protest process. I'm 100% legal and will always be that way, but I'd like to see what the protest shed would do with the protest. ECU's are one more thing that you do to make yourself faster. That includes timing and fuel maps...things that if you come across a real good one(map) that no one else has, that you've spent many hours on a dyno testing, you'd rather keep it between yourself and the Chief of Protest. Tom, I'm not saying that's what you're doing, but honestly I'd like to keep my maps to myself....one of those things, I guess. What I'm really getting at is the look that we'll on the protest personnel's faces when it comes up. Am I wrong in thinking that way? Please let me know if I am. Btw, I'm still on the stock computer for a while longer.
-Mike
Sorry guys....
-Mike
Sorry guys....
| stxwrxracer | 03-30-2004 04:12 PM |
Btw, I may not end up with Ecutek anyways either...so, what then?
-Mike
-Mike
| trhoppe | 03-30-2004 04:15 PM |
Well, right now you have a few choices
1) ECUtek
2) COBB
3) Unichip
4) AFC
Everything else is illegal.
I guess youre also not understanding "what" we are reading. We're not checking on what you "changed" to make your car faster. Frankly I don't care as everyone's maps will be different for fuel/timing. The dd cannot read those anyways even if you wanted to. What we did was make sure you DIDN'T change your boost level. If you don't want me to road dyno it to see the HP, thats fine, but I will definetly ask you to check the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull......
-Tom
1) ECUtek
2) COBB
3) Unichip
4) AFC
Everything else is illegal.
I guess youre also not understanding "what" we are reading. We're not checking on what you "changed" to make your car faster. Frankly I don't care as everyone's maps will be different for fuel/timing. The dd cannot read those anyways even if you wanted to. What we did was make sure you DIDN'T change your boost level. If you don't want me to road dyno it to see the HP, thats fine, but I will definetly ask you to check the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull......
-Tom
| BriDrive | 03-30-2004 04:18 PM |
OH, and Tom....IF I was ever fast enough to beat you and IF I showed up and did it, I would be 100% confident that my Accessport STX map would pass your test....who knows, maybe next year...we are some serious competitors here in Jacksonville who love this stuff....we just lack experience....MK does not consider us a threat...not even close...but some day you will see
wrx2.0 555 (Scott Strickland) and I. We are coming, and if you've already left we'll just assume the throne........:banana:
Results weigh tons more than smack. So until we achieve the former, we'll reserve the latter.
wrx2.0 555 (Scott Strickland) and I. We are coming, and if you've already left we'll just assume the throne........:banana:
Results weigh tons more than smack. So until we achieve the former, we'll reserve the latter.
| MNbiker | 03-30-2004 04:45 PM |
Mike,
The key numbers are full-throttle boost levels, which are really easy to monitor/log. As Tom said, the DD isn't capable of actually viewing fuel/timing maps, so your secrets will be safe.;)
Logging some full-throttle runs in your car PRIOR TO NATIONALS is a good idea for any top driver. Tuners have been known to send out the wrong maps before, or be less than 100% concerned about following STX tuning rules. Last time I checked "the tuner told me it was legal" wasn't a valid excuse. ;) :lol:
[EDIT] I don't believe COBB has released AccessTuner yet, so DD could also be used to check boost in AccessECU-equipped cars. Or any WRX/STi, for that matter.[/EDIT]
The key numbers are full-throttle boost levels, which are really easy to monitor/log. As Tom said, the DD isn't capable of actually viewing fuel/timing maps, so your secrets will be safe.;)
Logging some full-throttle runs in your car PRIOR TO NATIONALS is a good idea for any top driver. Tuners have been known to send out the wrong maps before, or be less than 100% concerned about following STX tuning rules. Last time I checked "the tuner told me it was legal" wasn't a valid excuse. ;) :lol:
[EDIT] I don't believe COBB has released AccessTuner yet, so DD could also be used to check boost in AccessECU-equipped cars. Or any WRX/STi, for that matter.[/EDIT]
| stxwrxracer | 03-30-2004 05:26 PM |
Well, I'll give you that much about not seeing the others map, BUT I still want to see what a protest shed will do once faced with a protest like this. So, we'll be the guinea pigs, how about it? And at what point will boost be deemed illegal? And what documentation will detail the max boost level of a WRX with my exact mods? I'm really playing devil's advocate here, because I believe it needs to be settled once and for all what the protest shed will do once its in their lap. We will see...
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]
I guess youre also not understanding "what" we are reading. We're not checking on what you "changed" to make your car faster. Frankly I don't care as everyone's maps will be different for fuel/timing. The dd cannot read those anyways even if you wanted to. What we did was make sure you DIDN'T change your boost level. If you don't want me to road dyno it to see the HP, thats fine, but I will definetly ask you to check the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
-Mike
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B]
I guess youre also not understanding "what" we are reading. We're not checking on what you "changed" to make your car faster. Frankly I don't care as everyone's maps will be different for fuel/timing. The dd cannot read those anyways even if you wanted to. What we did was make sure you DIDN'T change your boost level. If you don't want me to road dyno it to see the HP, thats fine, but I will definetly ask you to check the boost levels through a 2nd gear pull......
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
| TyrannoSullyRex | 03-30-2004 05:41 PM |
Just for the sake of curiosity, how about everyone pitch in and protest the lowest placing WRX that has a non-stock ECU just for grins at Nationals?
| Jsortor | 03-30-2004 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]The top guys at nationals this year all [I]agreed[/I] to letting Tom run the DeltaDash. Top guys are defined as guys that had won or were close to winning ProSolo and National Tours from around the country who were at Nationals.
The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
What would everyone (or anyone) involved think if one of the cars DID dyno say... 10hp higher than the rest? And there was no obvious rule infraction? Would it even be possible that everyone involved could settle for the fact that maybe it was better tuned? Or would the underlying thought be that that individual must have done something not legal and just not saying something.
[B]The top guys at nationals this year all [I]agreed[/I] to letting Tom run the DeltaDash. Top guys are defined as guys that had won or were close to winning ProSolo and National Tours from around the country who were at Nationals.
The test was not in the least forced upon anyone. It was more of an expereiment to see what kind of numbers/hp everyone was running... and it was fun to see everyone +/- 3 hp!! :D
Mike King, wasn't at Nationals last year... which is when this testing went on. I don't think he'd have an issue with it eaiter. It's one thing to let someone from outside the subarus protest us... but a wholly different thing to be self policing and trying to alleviate those that DON'T drive a Subaru's fears that yes, we checked, we're not cheating. We took it upon ourselves to do this.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
What would everyone (or anyone) involved think if one of the cars DID dyno say... 10hp higher than the rest? And there was no obvious rule infraction? Would it even be possible that everyone involved could settle for the fact that maybe it was better tuned? Or would the underlying thought be that that individual must have done something not legal and just not saying something.
| MNbiker | 03-30-2004 08:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jsortor [/i]
[B]What would everyone (or anyone) involved think if one of the cars DID dyno say... 10hp higher than the rest? And there was no obvious rule infraction? Would it even be possible that everyone involved could settle for the fact that maybe it was better tuned? Or would the underlying thought be that that individual must have done something not legal and just not saying something. [/B][/QUOTE]
If the car appeared to be built within the rules, I certainly wouldn't object. However, it's highly unlikely that "better tuning" alone will net an extra 10hp in STX trim - the mods are limited enough that most top cars will be relatively close in power levels. A good tune, optimized for 100/104 octane gas could certainly yield a 10hp+ gap, versus comparably prepped cars - a difference that would be easy to explain.
-Steve
[B]What would everyone (or anyone) involved think if one of the cars DID dyno say... 10hp higher than the rest? And there was no obvious rule infraction? Would it even be possible that everyone involved could settle for the fact that maybe it was better tuned? Or would the underlying thought be that that individual must have done something not legal and just not saying something. [/B][/QUOTE]
If the car appeared to be built within the rules, I certainly wouldn't object. However, it's highly unlikely that "better tuning" alone will net an extra 10hp in STX trim - the mods are limited enough that most top cars will be relatively close in power levels. A good tune, optimized for 100/104 octane gas could certainly yield a 10hp+ gap, versus comparably prepped cars - a difference that would be easy to explain.
-Steve
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