Thứ Bảy, 3 tháng 12, 2016

AS STI Understeer please go away part 1

Audipwr1 05-01-2006 09:30 PM

AS STI Understeer please go away
Drove an STI last weekend 100% stock in A stock. Although I was happy with my results, I wasn't happy with how the car pushes like a pig unless you are boosting.
Understandably its a front engined heavy car so some understeer is going to happen, but I imagine others have trialed some front sway bars to assist in this and probably have added some - camber to the front.

what have people used and liked? (Staying within A stock rules)
tuskenraider 05-01-2006 10:51 PM

Max out your front camber and get a big front swaybar. Whiteline or Strano, which there is a huge thread on if you do a search.
STirocket 05-01-2006 11:51 PM

I have a Whiteline 27-28 FSB set on 28 and have set the front up with -1.5 camber, rear -.7. It still pushes... I'm just getting into AutoX and I'm beginning to think it's the way I enter a corner that causes me to push through it. I'm just beginning to experiment with braking later, letting the car rotate into the corner (trailing throttle oversteer), then applying throttle as I exit. The couple times I've gotten this to work my exit speed was faster, and the tires didn't scream as much... :) I'm still having trouble with the sweepers though... :o
bitterWRX 05-02-2006 12:31 AM

So far my suspension is stock. But I have upgraded to a 22mm rear sway and front and rear tower strut bars (not sure how much those do... but the car feels tighter). The steering improved even more when I installed the lower arm brace v.2.

It feels very nice for the time being. I haven't done anything major yet in terms of suspension but this is what I'm using right now. It's not bad for "not as stock" hahaha
gharari 05-02-2006 01:03 AM

-3 degrees fromt camber and Whiteline's biggest sway bar work great for me.
gharari 05-02-2006 01:03 AM

^FSB, that is. RSB is stock. Oh yeah, and I do have camber plates, which puts me out of AS. Oh well, I'm trying to help. :rolleyes:
D_REX 05-02-2006 06:54 AM

[QUOTE=gharari]-3 degrees fromt camber and Whiteline's biggest sway bar work great for me.[/QUOTE]
How did you get-3 degrees of camber and stay AS legal????
Corey 05-02-2006 07:30 AM

Toe out in the rear... problem solved.

Corey #89 STS
KC 05-02-2006 07:44 AM

[QUOTE=Corey]Toe out in the rear... problem solved.

Corey #89 STS[/QUOTE]
^^^ One of the better answers, IMHO.

How about... don't get on the gas until you're past the Apex?

Everyone's ready to say change the car, I say... change the driver.

--kC
speednby 05-02-2006 08:07 AM

[QUOTE=Corey]Toe out in the rear... problem solved.

Corey #89 STS[/QUOTE]


Corey,

How much toe out are you running? And is it still streetable?
Corey 05-02-2006 08:17 AM

[QUOTE=speednby]Corey,

How much toe out are you running? And is it still streetable?[/QUOTE]

1/8 total out... and I drove it to work this morning, so I consider it streetable.

KC is pretty much right on target. If you have that much understeer, chances are you are going too fast at the wrong time.

Corey #89 STS
rankink 05-02-2006 09:24 AM

[QUOTE=KC]^^^ One of the better answers, IMHO.

How about... don't get on the gas until you're past the Apex?

Everyone's ready to say change the car, I say... change the driver.

--kC[/QUOTE]



Yep, be more patient through the turn and better throttle control will help a lot in this situation. It may seem like you are going slower getting on the gas later, but in reality your time will be quicker.
RumblingREX 05-02-2006 09:42 AM

Audi, I have the same problem, stock STi with swaybars in STU.

[QUOTE=rankink]Yep, be more patient through the turn and better throttle control will help a lot in this situation. It may seem like you are going slower getting on the gas later, but in reality your time will be quicker.[/QUOTE]


KC helped me with this lesson last weekend. Hard to break bad habits though.

Audi, I am leaving my car as is for the time being till I get this lesson learned. I will tolerate GTF's better times in his Miata and wussy comments for the time being.... :lol:
DrBiggly 05-02-2006 10:46 AM

Other than an alignment and a front bar, there isn't much one can do with the push in a stock car other than learn to drive around it. (Yes, I'm siding with KC here. Old man == wise.) :)

-Biggly
xrocket21 05-02-2006 10:49 AM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Other than an alignment and a front bar, there isn't much one can do with the push in a stock car other than learn to drive around it. (Yes, I'm siding with KC here. Old man == wise.) :)

-Biggly[/QUOTE]

YA, brake earlier. Too fast into the corner will give you way more understeer.
Jaxx 05-02-2006 11:51 AM

bravo corey

an A stock sti is not a forgiving car. it will penalize you heavly for not breaking/waiting
Scooby South 05-02-2006 12:07 PM

[QUOTE=Corey]Toe out in the rear... problem solved.

Corey #89 STS[/QUOTE]

^^^^^^ AND...you could manually put your Center diff to the rear...;).. for the car....

and what KC and Kolin say for the driver...

Bill
KSwrxWAGON 05-02-2006 12:32 PM

In addition to the comments on driving technique and toe out in the rear, what are your rear tire pressures. If the car isn't rotating enough and you are braking early enough to enter the turn, I add air to the rear tires. Ask some of the experienced STi drivers (or WRX) for a ride-along. You'll be amazed how they drive agressively...in the right spots.

Going into a turn fast to get the car to rotate isn't going to work. You'll understeer every time. Braking early enough to get into the turn allows you to get back on the throttle earlier and spool the turbo to pull you out of the turn.
Chiketkd 05-02-2006 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=D_REX]How did you get-3 degrees of camber and stay AS legal????[/QUOTE]
+1 There's no way to get that much camber using the factory tie rods. I thought ~-1.5 was the max?!
Ryouga 05-02-2006 05:08 PM

[QUOTE=Chiketkd]+1 There's no way to get that much camber using the factory tie rods. I thought ~-1.5 was the max?![/QUOTE]

This question was already answered:

[QUOTE=gharari]^FSB, that is. RSB is stock. Oh yeah, and I do have camber plates, which puts me out of AS.[/QUOTE]
trhoppe 05-02-2006 05:28 PM

You can get close to -2 if you try REALLY hard ;)

But basically, just learn to drive it correctly :)

-Tom
Mykl 05-02-2006 06:19 PM

Don't push the car into turns like it's a Miata. Get all your braking done early and in a straight line so you can set yourself up to get on the throttle as early as possible.

This car just doesn't like to rotate on the brakes. I think it has to do with the EBD feature. The car is more than happy to rotate on the throttle. Maximize that advantage.
Audipwr1 05-02-2006 08:56 PM

I appreciate the comments, and obviously like anyone I can always get better, but considering I won Astock got FTD in a Kart, and second fastest fendered car, I think the car could use a little training as well


Rear Toe is a good suggestion, I searched up the thread on front sways and it was honestly way too long and was hoping for some cliff notes on it. IE. what bars have people tried on a stock setup and with what results

thanks guys!
DrBiggly 05-02-2006 10:33 PM

Bigger the bar, the better the results for AS basically. Toe it out as far as it'll go in the rear and crank up the rear tire pressure to about 50psi or so (experimentation required.)

That's pretty much it, other than maxing out front camber via the bolts as far as a stock setup goes. :)

-Biggly
KC 05-02-2006 10:43 PM

[QUOTE=Audipwr1]I appreciate the comments, and obviously like anyone I can always get better, but considering I won Astock got FTD in a Kart, and second fastest fendered car, I think the car could use a little training as well[/QUOTE]
Was this at Devens or Storyland?

--KC
gharari 05-02-2006 11:38 PM

You can also steal some taco bell trays from your local, err, taco bell. Then, drive over them, placing each of your rear tires on top of a tray. Then pull the e-brake up firmly and leave it there. Drive. Wala! No understeer! It's a cheap, err, free mod that really does well to dial out understeer.

Sorry, I have no experience with other brands of meal trays, so use them at your own risk. Actually, use them all at your own risk. Actually do everything at your own risk. Um, thanks. Yeah.
Audipwr1 05-03-2006 07:22 AM

Storyland
Ryouga 05-03-2006 08:53 AM

[QUOTE=gharari]You can also steal some taco bell trays from your local, err, taco bell. Then, drive over them, placing each of your rear tires on top of a tray. Then pull the e-brake up firmly and leave it there.[/QUOTE]

I'm fairly sure this mod isn't permitted under the A-Stock rules. :lol:
maxQ 05-03-2006 10:03 AM

[QUOTE=gharari]You can also steal some taco bell trays from your local, err, taco bell. Then, drive over them, placing each of your rear tires on top of a tray. Then pull the e-brake up firmly and leave it there. Drive. Wala! No understeer! It's a cheap, err, free mod that really does well to dial out understeer.

Sorry, I have no experience with other brands of meal trays, so use them at your own risk. Actually, use them all at your own risk. Actually do everything at your own risk. Um, thanks. Yeah.[/QUOTE]

Used to drive a FWD, eh?


I think this is... uhhh.... ill-advised when all four wheels push the car around... unless you're doing burnouts, that is.
gharari 05-03-2006 01:47 PM

^yep, you're right! I wasn't thinking from a practical standpoint!
sstrano 05-03-2006 01:56 PM

Big front bar because: Camber curve sucks. You have to cut as body roll as you can to keep as much front tire useful. Also it keeps the inside rear tire down, which makes your AWD a lot more effective then when it's dangling in the air like a dog taking a piss. :)

Understeer. It happens. You will NEVER ever get a perfectly balanced AS STi (or STI). When it's right in this corner, it will be different in another type of corner. This isn't just an Subaru thing, ALL CARS are like this. As speed rises cars tend to get looser. As speed goes down, they tend to tighten up. Also understand that when you have AWD, power is bouncing around all over the place (between wheels). This changes the balance of the car. If you cornering at the limit, you don't have extra grip to allow the front tires to accelerate. If you hit the gas hard, the front tires spin and you don't turn as well.

You setup the car to be as good as you can, and then you drive it. Don't overdrive it, that makes things worse.

Max the camber. Control the camber curve and max the ability to get power down. You can play with toe, but too much is trouble. While toe out in the rear will make the car rotate, it can over rotate and make for a hell of a mess in slaloms. BTW, I think toe-out in the back of an STi is not wise. The way the diff works it really makes the rear move around too much IMHO.
DrBiggly 05-03-2006 02:19 PM

[QUOTE=gharari]You can also steal some taco bell trays from your local, err, taco bell. Then, drive over them, placing each of your rear tires on top of a tray. Then pull the e-brake up firmly and leave it there. Drive. Wala! No understeer! It's a cheap, err, free mod that really does well to dial out understeer.

Sorry, I have no experience with other brands of meal trays, so use them at your own risk. Actually, use them all at your own risk. Actually do everything at your own risk. Um, thanks. Yeah.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
KC 05-05-2006 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=Audipwr1]Storyland[/QUOTE]
I finally found a way to convey my thought without seeming to be attacking any club or whatnot.

When I ran with CMC at LL Bean in '00, I was 3rd fastest FTD in my 2.5RS to the Miller brothers in their CSP M3. I was FTD for all the day except for their last runs. And that was only my 2nd year of auto-x. (All I had was R-compounds and a rear swaybar).

If you're a decent driver, with a decent car, it's not hard to be fast with CMC. '00 was my 1st full year of auto-x after 2 years of just a few events a year.

Come to NHIS Sunday if you can. Devens would be preferred tho since NHIS is a really tight/short/small lot and Devens lets the car stretch its legs a tad more. :)

--kC
DemolitionNine 05-05-2006 07:53 PM

Dude.

Get a beeger rear Swaybar.

I've got Cobb Springs all the way around, and cobb's rear swaybar w/ their endlinks.

one HELLUVA difference. The car will 360 on command.

:)
DrBiggly 05-05-2006 10:19 PM

[QUOTE=DemolitionNine]Dude.

Get a beeger rear Swaybar.

I've got Cobb Springs all the way around, and cobb's rear swaybar w/ their endlinks.

one HELLUVA difference. The car will 360 on command.

:)[/QUOTE]

Springs changes and rear swaybars are not on the list of allowed modifcations for an AS classed vehicle. Perhaps you didn't catch the title of the thread? :)

-Biggly
silver arrow 05-05-2006 11:33 PM

AS is not a good class for a stock STi. Add the big FSB, Drill your lower knuckle hole to take another factor camber bolt, put in -2 camber and enter the corners slower. STU is the place you want to be, anything with R comps in AS is going to eat you up. STU is the perfect class for stock STi, on RE070's.
silver arrow 05-05-2006 11:38 PM

[QUOTE=DemolitionNine]Dude.

Get a beeger rear Swaybar.

I've got Cobb Springs all the way around, and cobb's rear swaybar w/ their endlinks.

one HELLUVA difference. The car will 360 on command.

:)[/QUOTE]

FSB vs RSB has been covered a million times, better to add grip to the front to balance the car than remove grip from the rear. You give up overall grip. FSB increase front grip by decreasing the change from neg camber to pos camber under suspension compression due to the camber curve of the strut type suspension. With just a FSB and camber adjustments with either camber bolts or slotting the strut holes you can be competitive in STU with a good driver.
silver arrow 05-05-2006 11:46 PM

If you are set on AS, get R comps, wheels with slightly wider offset (see rule book), FSB, ohlin fixed perch struts, CBE, as much neg camber as you can wrestle up :D, some front toe out.
Audipwr1 05-06-2006 09:35 AM

[QUOTE=KC]I finally found a way to convey my thought without seeming to be attacking any club or whatnot.

When I ran with CMC at LL Bean in '00, I was 3rd fastest FTD in my 2.5RS to the Miller brothers in their CSP M3. I was FTD for all the day except for their last runs. And that was only my 2nd year of auto-x. (All I had was R-compounds and a rear swaybar).

If you're a decent driver, with a decent car, it's not hard to be fast with CMC. '00 was my 1st full year of auto-x after 2 years of just a few events a year.

Come to NHIS Sunday if you can. Devens would be preferred tho since NHIS is a really tight/short/small lot and Devens lets the car stretch its legs a tad more. :)

--kC[/QUOTE]


That was well put and did not offend me at all (although I dont have much personal stake in CMC I just have run there since 01 off and on when I am near Maine in the summer)

I certainly do not disagree that SCCA is a much higher level of competition. CMC, however, has certainly increased its field size and driver skills since 00.

I have heard of your name and realize you are quite a driver, but I don't THINK you would be able to do such a sweep these days in a 2.5RS with comps and a bar (although LL Bean is a SMALLL lot and is hard to do well in with a heavier car).
Either way your reputation is impressive, and when I do attend a SCCA event I would enjoy speaking with you and or having/getting a ride along to help tune my AX skills which of course are not perfect.

I stick to CMC events for a few reasons
1. more runs in a day
2. people are much more friendly and willing to help me get better whether it be ride alongs (In which i was told and then started braking much earlier on the STI than I used to in my SM honda), or setup ideas.
3. I dont mind winning :)
4. I know all the regulars there and that provides for a fun relaxing afternoon of catching up with people ive known for a few years


Now if I were to begin to take AX seriously I would certainly get into SCCA, get hoosiers and go to work, but I just don't have the time or motovation to do so (or get up at 5am on a Sunday :) ) . If I can adjust my camber slightly and throw a 300 dollar sway bar on there so that the other 3 or 4 times in the next two years I autocross it before I sell it, I will have less understeer than that is worth it to me.

I will definatley try to attend the next Devens event on the 27th just to see what that next level of competition looks like and get a chance to put a face to some names here. And I guess I should run STU to stay away from the guys with Rcomps in AS when I do.


Thanks for the feedback,
Matt
DrBiggly 05-06-2006 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=silver arrow]....Drill your lower knuckle hole to take another factor camber bolt, put in -2 camber ...[/QUOTE]

That is most definitely not legal in Stock class. :confused: Why on earth would you recommend cheating in such a manner?

-Biggly
trhoppe 05-06-2006 11:18 AM

Because people are idiots.

Hasn't this been covered 10000 times?

Koni shocks, giant front bar, 275 R comps, toe out, LEARN TO DRIVE. You can get over -1.5 camber with the stock camber bolts, even on an 05/06. If you aren't, you or your alignment guy aren't trying hard enough.

An STi would win AS with good shocks and a good driver.

-Tom
MattNJ2.8 05-06-2006 01:45 PM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]That is most definitely not legal in Stock class. :confused: Why on earth would you recommend cheating in such a manner?

-Biggly[/QUOTE]


Biggly, unless you are joking, and I miss the inside humor... re-read his post.

This particular post suggested drilling and moving to STU.
DrBiggly 05-06-2006 02:36 PM

[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]Biggly, unless you are joking, and I miss the inside humor... re-read his post.

This particular post suggested drilling and moving to STU.[/QUOTE]
Ah, ok. I missed the STU part. Thanks for pointing that out as previously I thought silver arrow was advocating cheating or was entirely oblivious to the SCCA ruleset. :o :)

-Biggly
silver arrow 05-06-2006 09:26 PM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Ah, ok. I missed the STU part. Thanks for pointing that out as previously I thought silver arrow was advocating cheating or was entirely oblivious to the SCCA ruleset. :o :)

-Biggly[/QUOTE]

No, just think AS is futile in an STi. Less expensive to be competitive in STU.
alltracin 05-06-2006 10:46 PM

Less expensive? :huh: LOL. It's less expensive to be competitive in DS with an '06 WRX. :p
silver arrow 05-07-2006 10:32 AM

Good drivers in Stock STi's with just neg camber and FSB are doing very well in STU. Seems alot more STOCK than STOCK classes. If you think another set of wheels and R comps at a minimum is cheaper than adding camber and a FSB, then I want to be your accountant. :lol:
alltracin 05-07-2006 02:57 PM

Obviously you're not running in the regions I am...lol Steve Rankins
rankink 05-07-2006 03:01 PM

[QUOTE=alltracin]Obviously you're not running in the regions I am...lol Steve Rankins[/QUOTE]


Exactly, if you are in a region with good competition you are going to be spending much more than in AS.
supermarkus 05-07-2006 03:14 PM

[QUOTE=trhoppe]...You can get over -1.5 camber with the stock camber bolts, even on an 05/06. If you aren't, you or your alignment guy aren't trying hard enough. [/QUOTE]


Do tell. I couldn't figure out a way of getting much more than -.9 on mine short of using a come along and actually bending things with just camber bolts. Don't just leave us hanging. Believe me, it wasn't for lack of trying, I promise
DrBiggly 05-07-2006 03:39 PM

Tom,
Do remember that the hub is physically thicker for '05/'06 versus '04 and thus the reason for the reduced camber on the '05/06s. It takes a little more than half a degree out of its stock capability as I recall. :)

-Biggly
silver arrow 05-07-2006 04:48 PM

Name any national level driver in an STi competitive in AS?
rankink 05-08-2006 07:22 AM

[QUOTE=silver arrow]Name any national level driver in an STi competitive in AS?[/QUOTE]



Name any top national level driver competing in a STi?
conevadr 05-08-2006 08:09 AM

Not exactly the same car setup, but I run 275F/245R in my AS EVO with good results so far.
MattNJ2.8 05-08-2006 08:43 AM

[QUOTE=rankink]Name any top national level driver competing in a STi?[/QUOTE]


True, but the Evo and STi can be pretty much lumped together for this comparison, subie board or not.

You can find national caliber drivers in an Evo- Daddio comes to mind.
DrBiggly 05-08-2006 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]True, but the Evo and STi can be pretty much lumped together for this comparison, subie board or not.

You can find national caliber drivers in an Evo- Daddio comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
Last I heard, Daddio was running Street Mod.

-Biggly
rankink 05-08-2006 11:28 AM

He has not run a Stock class EVO in any Tour events in 04, 05 & 06 as far as I can find.
Jack 05-08-2006 12:41 PM

You guys are saying to use a larger FRONT swaybar???

Opposite of what I'd say.

jack
Calamity Jesus 05-08-2006 12:45 PM

[QUOTE=Jack ffr1846]You guys are saying to use a larger FRONT swaybar???

Opposite of what I'd say.

jack[/QUOTE]
Well, Stock class won't allow you to mess with anything else on the suspension.. and removing/reducing front bar will only make it worse.

There have been lots of threads on this, but the general consensus is huge front swaybars FTW... especially on stock-ish suspensions.
DrBiggly 05-08-2006 01:03 PM

[QUOTE=Beaverboy]Well, Stock class won't allow you to mess with anything else on the suspension.. and removing/reducing front bar will only make it worse.

There have been lots of threads on this, but the general consensus is huge front swaybars FTW... especially on stock-ish suspensions.[/QUOTE]

Agreed wholeheartedly. :)

-Biggly
rankink 05-08-2006 01:33 PM

[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Agreed wholeheartedly. :)

-Biggly[/QUOTE]



I do as well. It makes quite a subctantial difference on a A-stock STi.

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