| zosima | 03-29-2004 12:30 PM |
Bad news
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�
Yesterday I competed in an autocross with the FCSCC in CT. On my fifth run, something horrible
happend. The finish was very fast (I was full throttle for at least 5
seconds before crossing the finish line). After crossing the finish
line, you had to get on the brakes hard. I tried to do this, but I did
not evenly apply the brakes and my foot slipped off to the right. I
recovered, but shortly after I had jumped a curb and ran into some
shrubbery/small trees. Noone else was involved, and I am perfectly
fine. My airbags didn't even deploy. The car, on the other hand, is
pretty torn up. My right front wheel (very strong Prodrive P7)
seperated at the rim. I know the control arm is bent, and it looks like
the right front wheel got pushed up into/bent the unibody. I don't know at this point for sure how much damage the car has.
The really scary news in that my insurance company, Amica, is trying to
deny the claim. They read off their "racing" clause when I reported the
claim. I am challenging the decision. Fortunately, before this, one of
their representatives gave me a statement that driver skill improvement
events were covered. Any additional help in explaining exactly what an
autocross is (preferably something official) would be appreciated.
I would also like to give a big thumbs up for the FCSCC organizers. They were very helpful in dealing with this. I also want to make it explicitely known that my course description was for reference only. I am not trying to imply that the course was "unsafe" in any way. Well, anytime you have a running car you have the potential for something bad to happen. I hate to be the one to most recently "prove" this is the case for autocross, but I knew what I was getting into and I made a mistake and now I am paying for it.
Thanks everyone.
happend. The finish was very fast (I was full throttle for at least 5
seconds before crossing the finish line). After crossing the finish
line, you had to get on the brakes hard. I tried to do this, but I did
not evenly apply the brakes and my foot slipped off to the right. I
recovered, but shortly after I had jumped a curb and ran into some
shrubbery/small trees. Noone else was involved, and I am perfectly
fine. My airbags didn't even deploy. The car, on the other hand, is
pretty torn up. My right front wheel (very strong Prodrive P7)
seperated at the rim. I know the control arm is bent, and it looks like
the right front wheel got pushed up into/bent the unibody. I don't know at this point for sure how much damage the car has.
The really scary news in that my insurance company, Amica, is trying to
deny the claim. They read off their "racing" clause when I reported the
claim. I am challenging the decision. Fortunately, before this, one of
their representatives gave me a statement that driver skill improvement
events were covered. Any additional help in explaining exactly what an
autocross is (preferably something official) would be appreciated.
I would also like to give a big thumbs up for the FCSCC organizers. They were very helpful in dealing with this. I also want to make it explicitely known that my course description was for reference only. I am not trying to imply that the course was "unsafe" in any way. Well, anytime you have a running car you have the potential for something bad to happen. I hate to be the one to most recently "prove" this is the case for autocross, but I knew what I was getting into and I made a mistake and now I am paying for it.
Thanks everyone.
| HoRo1 | 03-29-2004 12:43 PM |
Sorry to hear about your incident.
I'm NOT an insurance expert (I just play one on NABISCO), but usually ANY TIMED EVENT will invalidate insurance. Your insurance agent will probably tell you that they encourage people to go to driving schools etc, but they really dislike competition. Good luck with your claim.
I'm NOT an insurance expert (I just play one on NABISCO), but usually ANY TIMED EVENT will invalidate insurance. Your insurance agent will probably tell you that they encourage people to go to driving schools etc, but they really dislike competition. Good luck with your claim.
| leecea | 03-29-2004 01:00 PM |
I agree with HoRo1. When I started autoxing, I read my policy and it does state that any timed event is excluded.
| skuttledude | 03-29-2004 01:22 PM |
Sorry to hear about the accident. Keep fighting the insurance thing. Lawyer maybe depending on cost of repairs?
Keep us informed.
(reminder to self to check insurance for "timed event")
davis
Keep us informed.
(reminder to self to check insurance for "timed event")
davis
| KC | 03-29-2004 01:26 PM |
I'm sure you saw the response on the NER solo list?
But I'll put it here for archive purposes...
Section 1.6 of the Solo Rulebook states:
"A Category II Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility."
There's more (and this is from my 2003 book, but I don't think it has changed.) about the amount of risk involved and such. but that is the gist of the section.
Bad news here is that you were not running a Solo II event sanctioned by the SCCA, but an autocross sanctioned by the Fairfield County Sports Car Club, so Amica may say that the rulebook does not apply here.
This is not to denigrate FCSCC. I have never been to one of their events where I felt that the course was unsafe and have always enjoyed going to those events.
But, if I were Amica, I would be looking for a loophole, and this is a big one.
Get your 2004 rulebook, show it to the rep, and cross your fingers.
But I'll put it here for archive purposes...
Section 1.6 of the Solo Rulebook states:
"A Category II Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility."
There's more (and this is from my 2003 book, but I don't think it has changed.) about the amount of risk involved and such. but that is the gist of the section.
Bad news here is that you were not running a Solo II event sanctioned by the SCCA, but an autocross sanctioned by the Fairfield County Sports Car Club, so Amica may say that the rulebook does not apply here.
This is not to denigrate FCSCC. I have never been to one of their events where I felt that the course was unsafe and have always enjoyed going to those events.
But, if I were Amica, I would be looking for a loophole, and this is a big one.
Get your 2004 rulebook, show it to the rep, and cross your fingers.
| 614inda617 | 03-29-2004 01:38 PM |
Auto-X friendly insurance companies?
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I'm a friend of zosima and this was my first auto-x event. He was the one that talked me into auto-x in the first place and the car I'm driving now. ;) Thanks again! I had a blast while I was out there. However this was a sobering experience for my first time out. These types of things can happen o anybody and it's very sad it happened to Mike. I don't want to hijack his thread, but I think it would be useful to know if there are any insurance companies out there that cover auto-x events. From the events I've seen, and the one I've participated in, I think auto-x is a very safe sport if the driver steps up his speed incrimentally and the course is safely designed. But in the off chance that something goes horribly wrong, if there is an insurance company out there that will cover auto-x by default, or if there is a company that will sell suplimental insurance, I'd like to be a member. :)
Again, Mike, I'm so sorry.:(
Again, Mike, I'm so sorry.:(
| leecea | 03-29-2004 02:07 PM |
As I mentioned above, I know that my policy will not cover autoxes because they are timed. So, I was worried about the potential for damage and did a pretty exhaustive search for anyone who would offer supplemental insurance. I searched the Web a lot, contacted anyone who advertised insurance in GRM and similar racer type publications, posted on NASIOC, and followed up every lead I could.
The only offer of solid coverage came through a US broker who was able to work with track day coverage people in the UK. I had to submit an application and I described the events using pretty much the wording KC posted, plus I offered to take a $5,000 deductible on my stock Suby. Even so, their quote was basically the same as UK Track Day coverage and would have amounted to two or three thousand dollars a year for my proposed schedule of between 10-15 events.
This was too expensive for me, so I gave up.
The only offer of solid coverage came through a US broker who was able to work with track day coverage people in the UK. I had to submit an application and I described the events using pretty much the wording KC posted, plus I offered to take a $5,000 deductible on my stock Suby. Even so, their quote was basically the same as UK Track Day coverage and would have amounted to two or three thousand dollars a year for my proposed schedule of between 10-15 events.
This was too expensive for me, so I gave up.
| zosima | 03-29-2004 02:46 PM |
I am amazed at the emphasis on organized/timed events... I guess I am glad I never did anything truely reckless like TSD rally :rolleyes:
Anyways, no word yet, but thaks for all your help so far! I still hope that my insurance company will come around and see this as driver training. It was also interesting that, when they told me that driving improvement events were covered, they never made an exception for having a stopwatch there.
That is all for now, thanks again!
Anyways, no word yet, but thaks for all your help so far! I still hope that my insurance company will come around and see this as driver training. It was also interesting that, when they told me that driving improvement events were covered, they never made an exception for having a stopwatch there.
That is all for now, thanks again!
| 614inda617 | 03-29-2004 03:07 PM |
Hmmm. I don't remember if I said anything yesterday, but in case I didn't, you are welcome to drive the STi until you get your car back together. After all, you haven't had a chance to properly flog it yet. :)
| paultg | 03-29-2004 09:03 PM |
zosima,
You shold get your policy aggreement out and read if with a fine tooth comb.
Because of this thread I picked up my new Amica policy agreement and did the same (but much quicker).
I have a NH policy and under [b]Part D - Coverage for Damage to your auto[/b]
I found the following (word for word with bold included as shown in my book):
[quote]
#13. Loss to [b]your covered auto[/b] or any [b]non-owned auto[/b], located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
[b]a.[/b] Competing in; or
[b]b.[/b] Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.[/quote]
It says nothing about [b]timing[/b] being an issue.
Now, your incident maybe be a collision claim, so lets take a look here. Just finished. It doesn't separate that sort of coverage in my book. With my old Ma policy (diiferent company) they did.
So, I'm not sure where you can go, but that info above is pretty damn open to interpertation and I think you'd be able to get coverage with some firm info about the driving school / autox events.
I'm not a lawyer but:
1. [u]You were not at a facility designed[/u] for racing or for the purpose of competing in, or preparing for a racing or speed contest.
Repeat after me:
"You were in a parking lot, attending a driver education program hosted by an local organized automobile club."
Paul G.
You shold get your policy aggreement out and read if with a fine tooth comb.
Because of this thread I picked up my new Amica policy agreement and did the same (but much quicker).
I have a NH policy and under [b]Part D - Coverage for Damage to your auto[/b]
I found the following (word for word with bold included as shown in my book):
[quote]
#13. Loss to [b]your covered auto[/b] or any [b]non-owned auto[/b], located inside a facility designed for racing, for the purpose of:
[b]a.[/b] Competing in; or
[b]b.[/b] Practicing or preparing for;
any prearranged or organized racing or speed contest.[/quote]
It says nothing about [b]timing[/b] being an issue.
Now, your incident maybe be a collision claim, so lets take a look here. Just finished. It doesn't separate that sort of coverage in my book. With my old Ma policy (diiferent company) they did.
So, I'm not sure where you can go, but that info above is pretty damn open to interpertation and I think you'd be able to get coverage with some firm info about the driving school / autox events.
I'm not a lawyer but:
1. [u]You were not at a facility designed[/u] for racing or for the purpose of competing in, or preparing for a racing or speed contest.
Repeat after me:
"You were in a parking lot, attending a driver education program hosted by an local organized automobile club."
Paul G.
| paultg | 03-29-2004 09:14 PM |
From the FCSCC website the event held on March 27th 2004 is a Novice School.
[url]http://www.fcscc.com/04schedule.htm[/url]
PS: You got 4th place. That's worth a control arm and a rim! :D
Paul G.
[url]http://www.fcscc.com/04schedule.htm[/url]
PS: You got 4th place. That's worth a control arm and a rim! :D
Paul G.
| KC | 03-29-2004 09:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg[/i]
[B] From the FCSCC website the event held on March 27th 2004 is a Novice School.
[url]http://www.fcscc.com/04schedule.htm[/url]
PS: You got 4th place. That's worth a control arm and a rim! :D
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
Paul, that's a good find and I beleive something that may help! :)
Novice school != Autocross. :D
[B] From the FCSCC website the event held on March 27th 2004 is a Novice School.
[url]http://www.fcscc.com/04schedule.htm[/url]
PS: You got 4th place. That's worth a control arm and a rim! :D
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
Paul, that's a good find and I beleive something that may help! :)
Novice school != Autocross. :D
| paultg | 03-29-2004 09:23 PM |
:D
Z- You should speak to the event organizers. Maybe they can help you out with some documentation about the event that will help the insurance company understand things better. Their insurance company may also be able to help.
Paul G.
Z- You should speak to the event organizers. Maybe they can help you out with some documentation about the event that will help the insurance company understand things better. Their insurance company may also be able to help.
Paul G.
| zosima | 03-29-2004 11:35 PM |
paulgt: thank you so much for a very helpful reply. I was actually at the Sunday non-points event, not the rookie school (they described the rookie school as for true first timers, and this was beginning my second year) :(... sorry, yet another Mike finished 4th. Anyways, here is the quote from my coverage policy
[QUOTE]
[B]Part 9. Comprehensive[/B]
... However, we will not pay if an accident occurs while an auto covered under this Part(sic) is being operated in any prearranged or organized racing, speed, stunting, or demolition contest or activity or in practice or preparation for such contest or activite[/QUOTE]
Clearly, if FCSCC was an SCCA event, I could throw right back at them the wording KC quoted from the SCCA rulebook mentioning that it is a "non-speed" event. I am sure I could find adequate wording about it not being racing. Retrospective kudos to SCCA officials for their wording. ATM, I am really hoping to hear from the FCSCC chair so I can quote a similiar wording from him so that I can get this covered. One of the main problems I encountered was Massachusetts'... umm... interesting take on the world. All the Connecticut guys told me that so long as I explained it was a time-trial, not a race, I would be fine. Amica jumped on that wording because of the "time" keyword. Note to all: do not time your drive home, you will not be covered if you do. (Sorry, still a bit sore about the whole episode). Anyways, that is about all I have to go on.
I seriously do appreciate your advice though, keep it coming :D.
Edit: For some reason (*cough* stress *cough*) I always read the timing portion that was quoted to me by the adjuster into this. I am about to go to bed and don't want to go though the 100 policy modificatiions Amica sent me in the last year (boy do I believe those are intentionally confusing now), so I will have to look tommorrow. If they don't have this wording anywhere in any policy I have received before they are [I]really[/I] trying to pull a fast one on me. Paulgt: u == da bomb. Needless to say, I am going to switch from Amica after all this is settled if I am not treated fairly.
[QUOTE]
[B]Part 9. Comprehensive[/B]
... However, we will not pay if an accident occurs while an auto covered under this Part(sic) is being operated in any prearranged or organized racing, speed, stunting, or demolition contest or activity or in practice or preparation for such contest or activite[/QUOTE]
Clearly, if FCSCC was an SCCA event, I could throw right back at them the wording KC quoted from the SCCA rulebook mentioning that it is a "non-speed" event. I am sure I could find adequate wording about it not being racing. Retrospective kudos to SCCA officials for their wording. ATM, I am really hoping to hear from the FCSCC chair so I can quote a similiar wording from him so that I can get this covered. One of the main problems I encountered was Massachusetts'... umm... interesting take on the world. All the Connecticut guys told me that so long as I explained it was a time-trial, not a race, I would be fine. Amica jumped on that wording because of the "time" keyword. Note to all: do not time your drive home, you will not be covered if you do. (Sorry, still a bit sore about the whole episode). Anyways, that is about all I have to go on.
I seriously do appreciate your advice though, keep it coming :D.
Edit: For some reason (*cough* stress *cough*) I always read the timing portion that was quoted to me by the adjuster into this. I am about to go to bed and don't want to go though the 100 policy modificatiions Amica sent me in the last year (boy do I believe those are intentionally confusing now), so I will have to look tommorrow. If they don't have this wording anywhere in any policy I have received before they are [I]really[/I] trying to pull a fast one on me. Paulgt: u == da bomb. Needless to say, I am going to switch from Amica after all this is settled if I am not treated fairly.
| paultg | 03-30-2004 06:55 AM |
Well,
1. Check your collison section. Make sure they read the same.
Just another word of advice when dealing with them. I don't think they are just looking to not cover you and screw you. Remember your about 1 of maybe 10 people who know and understand what an autox is. The person at Amica probably has no clue what the event is and just doesn't want to loose his/her job by covering something he/she doesn't understand.
I think you just need to call them and discuss the event some more, and get written description from the FCSCC about the event, from their insurance company might be even better.
I've heard things about policies saying a "timed" event isn't covered, but have never seen the wording in any of my policies. If Amica is trying to use that, it's not in your policy agreement (make sure you read it). So it shouldn't be too difficult to get around it.
Tell them you'd never participate in an event like this if you thought you weren't covered. Tell them you had read your policy and are very surprised at their reaction.
Keep things simple. Don't offer too much info either. Answer their questions, don't lie, and stick to the facts. The wording of your policy agreement. Get an estimate for the car. If the damage is less than your deductible this is all a waste of time.
I know their are at least a few folks on this site (even in Nesic) who were covered for accidents at an autox event. Sean (trunkmonkey guy) is one of them.
O, and good luck.
Paul G.
1. Check your collison section. Make sure they read the same.
Just another word of advice when dealing with them. I don't think they are just looking to not cover you and screw you. Remember your about 1 of maybe 10 people who know and understand what an autox is. The person at Amica probably has no clue what the event is and just doesn't want to loose his/her job by covering something he/she doesn't understand.
I think you just need to call them and discuss the event some more, and get written description from the FCSCC about the event, from their insurance company might be even better.
I've heard things about policies saying a "timed" event isn't covered, but have never seen the wording in any of my policies. If Amica is trying to use that, it's not in your policy agreement (make sure you read it). So it shouldn't be too difficult to get around it.
Tell them you'd never participate in an event like this if you thought you weren't covered. Tell them you had read your policy and are very surprised at their reaction.
Keep things simple. Don't offer too much info either. Answer their questions, don't lie, and stick to the facts. The wording of your policy agreement. Get an estimate for the car. If the damage is less than your deductible this is all a waste of time.
I know their are at least a few folks on this site (even in Nesic) who were covered for accidents at an autox event. Sean (trunkmonkey guy) is one of them.
O, and good luck.
Paul G.
| jcroy66 | 03-30-2004 07:14 AM |
We too looked into this issue about a year or two back. At that time, we had received a new "supplemental" clause to our policy that explicitly prohibited any and all insurance coverage for "any vehicle competing in, practicing for, or prepared for any speed contest". (Wording is approximate, I don't have the policy in front of me and don't feel like hunting for it right now).
We were especially concerned because of the "prepared for" clause. By a strict interpretation, our cars are "prepared for" autocross, even while driving on the street. At that time, we were racing a Celica and had harnesses installed in the car (although tucked out of the way on the street). We also had put in new shocks and brake pads. We were concerned that the insurance company could make a case that even if we were involved in an accident on the street, that since the car was "prepared for" autocross, that it might not be covered.
Our independent insurance agent spent several days looking into the issue for us. She stated that because autocross is a competition that is won based on time, that that automatically makes it a "speed contest". (Admittedly, I had not read that clause in the rulebook, so did not point that out to her.) She did state that our cars would still be covered on the street.
So we asked her if we could switch insurance companies to someone who DID offer coverage during autocross. She stated that every company she was aware of had the same type of wording. She also stated that we could buy racing supplemental insurance, but that it would likely be cost-prohibitive. I checked with some autocross friends that own an insurance company, and they said that every company had added a similar clause within the last year (if they didn't have it already). Thank you, [I]The Fast and the Furious[/I]. :rolleyes:
FWIW, I do know at least 2 autocrossers locally who had incidents at autocross (one rolled his car at Nationals several years ago) covered. I believe in both cases, the insurance company did know that the incidents occurred at an autocross. However, both of those incidents were before the "[I]Fast and the Furious[/I]" clause became popular.
Also FWIW, a recommendation made by others was that you should tell your insurance company that you hit a curb on the street. Note: I am not advocating lying, just relating the recommendation made by others... ;) Obviously, this recommendation wouldn't help you now, regardless.
Finally. You asked about autocross-friendly insurance companies. I have NOT heard from anyone first-hand, but I have heard "through the grapevine" reports that Progressive had cancelled some autocrossers' policies [U]merely for autocrossing[/U] (i.e. they had not filed any claims). As the story goes, someone at Progressive went out and found online autocross results in at least one region of the country and correlated them to his customer list and cancelled any such policies. Again, I never heard from anyone who had their policy cancelled personally, so I do not know if this story is accurate.
We were especially concerned because of the "prepared for" clause. By a strict interpretation, our cars are "prepared for" autocross, even while driving on the street. At that time, we were racing a Celica and had harnesses installed in the car (although tucked out of the way on the street). We also had put in new shocks and brake pads. We were concerned that the insurance company could make a case that even if we were involved in an accident on the street, that since the car was "prepared for" autocross, that it might not be covered.
Our independent insurance agent spent several days looking into the issue for us. She stated that because autocross is a competition that is won based on time, that that automatically makes it a "speed contest". (Admittedly, I had not read that clause in the rulebook, so did not point that out to her.) She did state that our cars would still be covered on the street.
So we asked her if we could switch insurance companies to someone who DID offer coverage during autocross. She stated that every company she was aware of had the same type of wording. She also stated that we could buy racing supplemental insurance, but that it would likely be cost-prohibitive. I checked with some autocross friends that own an insurance company, and they said that every company had added a similar clause within the last year (if they didn't have it already). Thank you, [I]The Fast and the Furious[/I]. :rolleyes:
FWIW, I do know at least 2 autocrossers locally who had incidents at autocross (one rolled his car at Nationals several years ago) covered. I believe in both cases, the insurance company did know that the incidents occurred at an autocross. However, both of those incidents were before the "[I]Fast and the Furious[/I]" clause became popular.
Also FWIW, a recommendation made by others was that you should tell your insurance company that you hit a curb on the street. Note: I am not advocating lying, just relating the recommendation made by others... ;) Obviously, this recommendation wouldn't help you now, regardless.
Finally. You asked about autocross-friendly insurance companies. I have NOT heard from anyone first-hand, but I have heard "through the grapevine" reports that Progressive had cancelled some autocrossers' policies [U]merely for autocrossing[/U] (i.e. they had not filed any claims). As the story goes, someone at Progressive went out and found online autocross results in at least one region of the country and correlated them to his customer list and cancelled any such policies. Again, I never heard from anyone who had their policy cancelled personally, so I do not know if this story is accurate.
| zosima | 03-30-2004 11:51 AM |
Thanks for all the help. I am trying to keep a cool head about all this but it isn't easy. My collision section uses the same wording as the comprehensive. I did also get a statement from the Solo chair, so I can use that. I have always been and will always be 100% honest with them (not that you were implying otherwise). For the mean time, I am just waiting to hear back from them about their review and from the body shop. In the mean time, I would like to clear something up.... I do not know the Amica representatives motiviations. I also am not yet sure where the 'timed event' wording came from and how it relates to my policy. I have been 100% truthful and honest about this incident, and am scared that this might have been the case with the Amica Rep. As I said, time will tell. Also, I would like to say that I am only planning on switching insurance representatives if I am dealt with unfairly. My previous reaction was, unfortunately, a knee-jerk one. At this point I do not know if I am being treated honestly and fairly, but I will keep everyone up to date.
| paultg | 03-30-2004 12:27 PM |
Yeah. I'd really like to hear how things turn out. I think you'll be O.K.
I had to deal with a insurance situation which ended up going over the adjuster head because I also felt he wasn't acting in my best interest. I was correct too by the way.
But keep your head on straight, and stick with the:
"I can't understand how this isn't covered. The drier education program I attended does not fall into any "not covered for" description in my policy agreement."
Ask for [b]everything[/b] in writing.
Think about everything like it is going to go to court (so document well) but don't threaten court until you really have no other choice.
Always ask to speak to a supervisor also if you feel the information you've been provided is not accurate.
I would also try to avoid the words "autox", etc.. and stick with driver education sort of stuff. They will hang on every word. Don't try to get it called something to pull SCCA stuff in at this point (my opinion). Just stick with you not understanding this complication, how your policy agreement seems clear when you reviewed it, and how you were under the impression this was an educational event and you'd be covered. Ask how this situation is any different than if you drove into a curb entering your driveway? etc..
Remember, your damage is peanuts to them. This isn't medical payments, nothing like that. No law suit. This is Peanuts!
I'm thinking if you work this correctly they may "help you out and cover it" sort of thing, with the understanding that now you know better. Maybe.. Or you'll be correct via the information you provided and they will have to cover it.
I could give you my long story, but I'll save it. It was a 4 month nightmare though, but in the end the company corrected everything and I was paid what I was owed. It didn't involved autox though, but I spent many hours on the phone with a different insurance company.
Paul G.
I had to deal with a insurance situation which ended up going over the adjuster head because I also felt he wasn't acting in my best interest. I was correct too by the way.
But keep your head on straight, and stick with the:
"I can't understand how this isn't covered. The drier education program I attended does not fall into any "not covered for" description in my policy agreement."
Ask for [b]everything[/b] in writing.
Think about everything like it is going to go to court (so document well) but don't threaten court until you really have no other choice.
Always ask to speak to a supervisor also if you feel the information you've been provided is not accurate.
I would also try to avoid the words "autox", etc.. and stick with driver education sort of stuff. They will hang on every word. Don't try to get it called something to pull SCCA stuff in at this point (my opinion). Just stick with you not understanding this complication, how your policy agreement seems clear when you reviewed it, and how you were under the impression this was an educational event and you'd be covered. Ask how this situation is any different than if you drove into a curb entering your driveway? etc..
Remember, your damage is peanuts to them. This isn't medical payments, nothing like that. No law suit. This is Peanuts!
I'm thinking if you work this correctly they may "help you out and cover it" sort of thing, with the understanding that now you know better. Maybe.. Or you'll be correct via the information you provided and they will have to cover it.
I could give you my long story, but I'll save it. It was a 4 month nightmare though, but in the end the company corrected everything and I was paid what I was owed. It didn't involved autox though, but I spent many hours on the phone with a different insurance company.
Paul G.
| zosima | 03-30-2004 12:45 PM |
more great advice... thank you!
| alfaguy | 03-30-2004 03:19 PM |
Zosima,
Even if you do get this damage covered, there are a couple of things to think about:
1) Your insurance company may drop you after the claims is settled. In that case, it will be hard to get coverage in the future, and it will be expensive
2) They may also jack your rates because of it, and since it will be on record as a claim, so will any other insurance company.
Either of these situations will probably cost you alot more in the long run than paying for the damage yourself. For these reasons, I always run track days and autocrosses with the understanding that any damage is coming out of my pocket.
Joe
Even if you do get this damage covered, there are a couple of things to think about:
1) Your insurance company may drop you after the claims is settled. In that case, it will be hard to get coverage in the future, and it will be expensive
2) They may also jack your rates because of it, and since it will be on record as a claim, so will any other insurance company.
Either of these situations will probably cost you alot more in the long run than paying for the damage yourself. For these reasons, I always run track days and autocrosses with the understanding that any damage is coming out of my pocket.
Joe
| KC | 03-30-2004 03:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by alfaguy [/i]
[B]Zosima,
Even if you do get this damage covered, there are a couple of things to think about:
1) Your insurance company may drop you after the claims is settled. In that case, it will be hard to get coverage in the future, and it will be expensive
2) They may also jack your rates because of it, and since it will be on record as a claim, so will any other insurance company.
Either of these situations will probably cost you alot more in the long run than paying for the damage yourself. For these reasons, I always run track days and autocrosses with the understanding that any damage is coming out of my pocket.
Joe [/B][/QUOTE]
Welcome to the world of Massachusetts Insurance where it's Regulated by the state. In MA, you will not get killed if you get dropped for a claim, and getting dropped becuase of your 1st incident is quite difficult too. It's so different here that really shouldn't be much of a concern at this time.
Frankly I'd be surprised becuase at most, not really sure of the full extent of the SDIP discount, you may lose this years 'credit' Step for an incident free year. But that would be the most.... or maybe have the loss of 2 steps (one for the collision and one for the non-clean year).
He'd get insurance whereever he went in MA and it'd almost be the same rate with any other company. MA is nice in that regard.... it's all about the service you get, and it doesn't seem like you're getting a fair shake with Amica. (Have you worked with your agent on this or did you get your policy direct with Amica?)
[B]Zosima,
Even if you do get this damage covered, there are a couple of things to think about:
1) Your insurance company may drop you after the claims is settled. In that case, it will be hard to get coverage in the future, and it will be expensive
2) They may also jack your rates because of it, and since it will be on record as a claim, so will any other insurance company.
Either of these situations will probably cost you alot more in the long run than paying for the damage yourself. For these reasons, I always run track days and autocrosses with the understanding that any damage is coming out of my pocket.
Joe [/B][/QUOTE]
Welcome to the world of Massachusetts Insurance where it's Regulated by the state. In MA, you will not get killed if you get dropped for a claim, and getting dropped becuase of your 1st incident is quite difficult too. It's so different here that really shouldn't be much of a concern at this time.
Frankly I'd be surprised becuase at most, not really sure of the full extent of the SDIP discount, you may lose this years 'credit' Step for an incident free year. But that would be the most.... or maybe have the loss of 2 steps (one for the collision and one for the non-clean year).
He'd get insurance whereever he went in MA and it'd almost be the same rate with any other company. MA is nice in that regard.... it's all about the service you get, and it doesn't seem like you're getting a fair shake with Amica. (Have you worked with your agent on this or did you get your policy direct with Amica?)
| kwh29 | 03-30-2004 03:40 PM |
Peripherally related:
If this had happened at an SCCA sanctioned event your agent could talk to the SCCA risk department and get a fairly definitive statement of what autocross is and why it's described in the very specific language that's in the rulebook. Further, but not based on personal experience, if the safety steward filed an incident report and you were a member the SCCA would be obligated to assist you in communicating with your insurance company/making claims as necessary. This is one of the benefits of membership that most people ignore. It can be extremely valuable.
This has never been an issue at events that I've attended. All incidents (only 3 in 5 years, only 1 of those "major") have been handled out of pocket and the region paid for damage to the site. Obviously the safety steward filled out an incident report form but no claims came out of the process.
--Kevin H.
If this had happened at an SCCA sanctioned event your agent could talk to the SCCA risk department and get a fairly definitive statement of what autocross is and why it's described in the very specific language that's in the rulebook. Further, but not based on personal experience, if the safety steward filed an incident report and you were a member the SCCA would be obligated to assist you in communicating with your insurance company/making claims as necessary. This is one of the benefits of membership that most people ignore. It can be extremely valuable.
This has never been an issue at events that I've attended. All incidents (only 3 in 5 years, only 1 of those "major") have been handled out of pocket and the region paid for damage to the site. Obviously the safety steward filled out an incident report form but no claims came out of the process.
--Kevin H.
| alfaguy | 03-30-2004 03:52 PM |
KC,
Wow, it's nice to know that there are places where the insurance companies aren't so powerful.
Wow, it's nice to know that there are places where the insurance companies aren't so powerful.
| zosima | 03-30-2004 04:08 PM |
KC: my coverage is direct from Amica. They are internally reviewing the claim attempt through some internal supervisor challenge. I am definetly not impressed so far, but Amica may still do the right thing and just needs time to figure out what the situation was. I am crossing my fingers.
kwh29: unfortunately this was not at an SCCA sanctioned-event.... ironically the first non-SCCA sanctioned autocross I attended :(.
kwh29: unfortunately this was not at an SCCA sanctioned-event.... ironically the first non-SCCA sanctioned autocross I attended :(.
| paultg | 03-30-2004 08:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]
Frankly I'd be surprised becuase at most, not really sure of the full extent of the SDIP discount, you may lose this years 'credit' Step for an incident free year. But that would be the most.... or maybe have the loss of 2 steps (one for the collision and one for the non-clean year).
[/B][/QUOTE]
This will be interesting too. I'm not sure they can take away his SDIP discount unless the SDIP rating changes by getting some sort of traffic violation. I'm not sure though. I know going from Step 9 to Step 10 on my policy = ~$200/year.
Paul G.
[B]
Frankly I'd be surprised becuase at most, not really sure of the full extent of the SDIP discount, you may lose this years 'credit' Step for an incident free year. But that would be the most.... or maybe have the loss of 2 steps (one for the collision and one for the non-clean year).
[/B][/QUOTE]
This will be interesting too. I'm not sure they can take away his SDIP discount unless the SDIP rating changes by getting some sort of traffic violation. I'm not sure though. I know going from Step 9 to Step 10 on my policy = ~$200/year.
Paul G.
| paultg | 03-30-2004 08:07 PM |
BTW way zosima:
Just a little disclaimer from me. I enjoy trying to help folks out but I am not an expert. I had one bad experience with an insurance company and a body shop on their preferred shop list; a completely different situation than yours. I still had to read my policy close though and understand what they provide me as a customer.
If things go downhill (or even before they do) you may want to seek legal advice if you feel the cost of repairs or your insurance companies actions would dictate such a step.
A control arm/ball joint replacement, alignment, strut, and new rim/tire if needed might not be nearly as expensive as you may think.
Paul G.
Just a little disclaimer from me. I enjoy trying to help folks out but I am not an expert. I had one bad experience with an insurance company and a body shop on their preferred shop list; a completely different situation than yours. I still had to read my policy close though and understand what they provide me as a customer.
If things go downhill (or even before they do) you may want to seek legal advice if you feel the cost of repairs or your insurance companies actions would dictate such a step.
A control arm/ball joint replacement, alignment, strut, and new rim/tire if needed might not be nearly as expensive as you may think.
Paul G.
| zosima | 03-31-2004 10:34 AM |
paultg: Thanks for the disclaimer. At least until I know more (damage estimate and the Amica's "final" verdict) I do not want to pay for my advice. Your advice is taken with a grain of salt, but has been extremely valuable.
Anyways, for the morbidly curious [URL]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck[/URL]
Anyways, for the morbidly curious [URL]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck[/URL]
| KC | 03-31-2004 10:37 AM |
Wow mike, it doens't look that bad at all as far as body work goes... new lower lip, buff the scratches out... fix the front suspension et al and you're good as new.
--kC
--kC
| Pghrally | 03-31-2004 10:40 AM |
I am sorry you banged up your car, it certainly would be at least a huge inconvenience if it is your daily driver.
But, that is the risk of competing in an autocross. I am suprised that people think that insurers should cover this. And encouraging fraud?!- "Driver education?" "Hit a curb on the street!?" This was a for-fun competition, speed and timing are a factor. You can blame the "fast and furious" crowd, but this is as much of a reason why rates are high and insurers put those clauses in policies. Insurance companies do everything they can to raise rates and deny claims; I am no fan of them and they are a neccessary evil. Insurance doesn't exist to cover every repair on your vehicle regardless of cause.
You knew what you were getting into, and you came out on the bad end of the autocross. I am not trying to rag on you, but encourage personal responsibility.
Flame away.
But, that is the risk of competing in an autocross. I am suprised that people think that insurers should cover this. And encouraging fraud?!- "Driver education?" "Hit a curb on the street!?" This was a for-fun competition, speed and timing are a factor. You can blame the "fast and furious" crowd, but this is as much of a reason why rates are high and insurers put those clauses in policies. Insurance companies do everything they can to raise rates and deny claims; I am no fan of them and they are a neccessary evil. Insurance doesn't exist to cover every repair on your vehicle regardless of cause.
You knew what you were getting into, and you came out on the bad end of the autocross. I am not trying to rag on you, but encourage personal responsibility.
Flame away.
| paultg | 03-31-2004 11:28 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pghrally [/i]
[B]But, that is the risk of competing in an autocross. I am suprised that people think that insurers should cover this. And encouraging fraud?!- "Driver education?" "Hit a curb on the street!?" This was a for-fun competition, speed and timing are a factor.
Flame away. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not going to flame you. Your entitled to your opinion. I am going to clarify something.
I never told him to lie and/or encourage fraud. An autox event is driver education, I feel strongly about that. You can still have fun and learn.
I know for a fact that what I have learned about car control at autox, ice racing, etc.. has saved me and my insurance company a ton of money by me avoiding accidents on public roads.
Paul G.
[B]But, that is the risk of competing in an autocross. I am suprised that people think that insurers should cover this. And encouraging fraud?!- "Driver education?" "Hit a curb on the street!?" This was a for-fun competition, speed and timing are a factor.
Flame away. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not going to flame you. Your entitled to your opinion. I am going to clarify something.
I never told him to lie and/or encourage fraud. An autox event is driver education, I feel strongly about that. You can still have fun and learn.
I know for a fact that what I have learned about car control at autox, ice racing, etc.. has saved me and my insurance company a ton of money by me avoiding accidents on public roads.
Paul G.
| zosima | 03-31-2004 11:29 AM |
KC -- I hope you are right... the only scary thing is the last picture, where the RF fender bulges out in front of the door.... I am worried about the unibody bending.
Pghrally: I agree about taking responsibility, and fraud deserves the reaction that you are talking about... but I do disagree that a driving skills event with instructors is just a "for-fun" competetion. If they changed the name to "school" and made no other changes, I am confident my insurance agent would cover me, based on previous conversations. I would love to have some statistics about autocross and driver safety, I am confident that autocrossers are less likely to get into accidents than the general populus, including autocrosses themselves... that is why my insurance company said that driver training was covered in the first place.
Edit: what paultg said was nowhere near insurance fraud.
Pghrally: I agree about taking responsibility, and fraud deserves the reaction that you are talking about... but I do disagree that a driving skills event with instructors is just a "for-fun" competetion. If they changed the name to "school" and made no other changes, I am confident my insurance agent would cover me, based on previous conversations. I would love to have some statistics about autocross and driver safety, I am confident that autocrossers are less likely to get into accidents than the general populus, including autocrosses themselves... that is why my insurance company said that driver training was covered in the first place.
Edit: what paultg said was nowhere near insurance fraud.
| paultg | 03-31-2004 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
[B]KC -- I hope you are right... the only scary thing is the last picture, where the RF fender bulges out in front of the door.... I am worried about the unibody bending.[/B][/QUOTE]
The clips or bolt holes are probably bent/broken. You can probably fix it with some oversized washer instead of replacing the actual fender (which is what the estimate will own). It's hard to say, but most of the stuff is attached with plastic clips that don't take well to impact.
I'd bet you can fix this yourself and save a bunch of money if the insurance part of this doesn't work out.
Paul G.
[B]KC -- I hope you are right... the only scary thing is the last picture, where the RF fender bulges out in front of the door.... I am worried about the unibody bending.[/B][/QUOTE]
The clips or bolt holes are probably bent/broken. You can probably fix it with some oversized washer instead of replacing the actual fender (which is what the estimate will own). It's hard to say, but most of the stuff is attached with plastic clips that don't take well to impact.
I'd bet you can fix this yourself and save a bunch of money if the insurance part of this doesn't work out.
Paul G.
| zosima | 03-31-2004 11:43 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg[/i]
[B]
I think you just need to call them and discuss the event some more, and get written description from the FCSCC about the event, from their insurance company might be even better.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Very good advice. I now have a statement from the FCSCC President stating that they adhere to the SCCA Solo II rulebook, which includes the aforementioned [QUOTE]A Category II Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility.[/QUOTE]
Also, they have a report from the CT DOT stating that their events are not racing events, because apparently last year CT passed some law that firetrucks , ambulances, and ... must be at all racing events. These should both help.
[B]
I think you just need to call them and discuss the event some more, and get written description from the FCSCC about the event, from their insurance company might be even better.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Very good advice. I now have a statement from the FCSCC President stating that they adhere to the SCCA Solo II rulebook, which includes the aforementioned [QUOTE]A Category II Solo Event is a non-speed driving skill contest such as, but not limited to, autocrosses and slaloms. These events are run on short courses that emphasize the driver's ability and the car's handling and agility.[/QUOTE]
Also, they have a report from the CT DOT stating that their events are not racing events, because apparently last year CT passed some law that firetrucks , ambulances, and ... must be at all racing events. These should both help.
| zosima | 03-31-2004 11:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg[/i]
[B] The clips or bolt holes are probably bent/broken... [/B][/QUOTE]
Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me.
[B] The clips or bolt holes are probably bent/broken... [/B][/QUOTE]
Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me.
| Pghrally | 03-31-2004 12:05 PM |
As a rule, I am a big believer that autoX, rallyX and motorsports in general will produce better drivers.(there are exceptions..) But, as I am the devils advocate here, gettting an insurance co. to view an autoX as a driving school will be very difficult. I think their definition of driving school would never include any timed competition, regardless of the relatively low speeds in autoX.
As for fraud, I'll bet that anything you tell the insurance company other than 100 percent truth would be considered fraud. Sorry to ruffle the feathers, didn't mean to make anyone look like a felon or anything.
I still think it's not worth having this particular claim on your policy. Why have them "red flag" you, so to speak, on any future claims when you might really need them...medical costs, liability with another car, etc....
Glad to see a very mature, level headed discussion about a serious topic here.
As for fraud, I'll bet that anything you tell the insurance company other than 100 percent truth would be considered fraud. Sorry to ruffle the feathers, didn't mean to make anyone look like a felon or anything.
I still think it's not worth having this particular claim on your policy. Why have them "red flag" you, so to speak, on any future claims when you might really need them...medical costs, liability with another car, etc....
Glad to see a very mature, level headed discussion about a serious topic here.
| zosima | 03-31-2004 01:02 PM |
I will wait to see about their definitions of driver training/schools.
Thank you for clariying your fraud statement. You aren't ruffling my feathers with statements about fraud unless you were saying that I was trying it. This is a bit of a sore matter for me because I already have reason to believe my insurance agency is not being 100 percent truthful with me... time will tell if I am mistaken on that.
Finally, I can't figure out if it is "worth" having this claim on my policy until I get an estimate.... which I really hope will happen today.
Thank you for clariying your fraud statement. You aren't ruffling my feathers with statements about fraud unless you were saying that I was trying it. This is a bit of a sore matter for me because I already have reason to believe my insurance agency is not being 100 percent truthful with me... time will tell if I am mistaken on that.
Finally, I can't figure out if it is "worth" having this claim on my policy until I get an estimate.... which I really hope will happen today.
| paultg | 03-31-2004 01:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
[B]Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yup. I see that gap. I *think* the inner liner inside the fender maybe pushed around because of the tire, and that has caused the fender gap. I don't think the fender is all that damaged. You'd have to look at the top bolts under the hood and see if the fender looks distorted, and also check in the wheel well. I just think the bolts or plastic clips might have pulled through the holes on the fender. A cheap fix for that is a new bolt/clip and a washer to take up the larger/damaged fender holes.
Again, read my disclaimer above though. :lol: :D
Paul G.
[B]Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yup. I see that gap. I *think* the inner liner inside the fender maybe pushed around because of the tire, and that has caused the fender gap. I don't think the fender is all that damaged. You'd have to look at the top bolts under the hood and see if the fender looks distorted, and also check in the wheel well. I just think the bolts or plastic clips might have pulled through the holes on the fender. A cheap fix for that is a new bolt/clip and a washer to take up the larger/damaged fender holes.
Again, read my disclaimer above though. :lol: :D
Paul G.
| Mike Anson | 03-31-2004 01:14 PM |
I know a guy who rolled his WRX at a rally-x and got it covered by his insurance.
I'm sure you've all heard about the guy (Clegg) who's RS went scuba diving at an ice race - that was covered by insurance, too.
I'm sure you've all heard about the guy (Clegg) who's RS went scuba diving at an ice race - that was covered by insurance, too.
| Pghrally | 03-31-2004 01:31 PM |
Re: those 2 guys that had their accidents covered- you know this for a fact? That is interesting, and I hope it's true. Someday I know I'll be driving my street legal rally car on the street and be involved in a situation that requires insurance, and I hope I get the coverage! I'm just not optimistic about that.
Good luck with the estimate! Regardless of my apparent negativity, I certainly hope you don't get screwed!
Good luck with the estimate! Regardless of my apparent negativity, I certainly hope you don't get screwed!
| rallynutdon | 03-31-2004 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
[B]Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me. [/B][/QUOTE]
But, look at the wheel. The spokes broke (which is good) which means the suspension arm/strut didn't take that much of a hit, the wheel took the real force and broke so the unibody should not have been pushed up or back. My $.02
[B]Look again, [IMG]http://zosima.org/wrx/wreck/fender2.jpg[/IMG] that gap is what is worrying me. [/B][/QUOTE]
But, look at the wheel. The spokes broke (which is good) which means the suspension arm/strut didn't take that much of a hit, the wheel took the real force and broke so the unibody should not have been pushed up or back. My $.02
| zosima | 03-31-2004 02:21 PM |
If you guys are right, me == :banana:
| zosima | 03-31-2004 05:53 PM |
Still no word from anyone. If the body shop doesn't have it ready tomorrow I will probably rent a U-haul w/ trailer to run down there and pick it up. *sigh*.
| Mike Anson | 03-31-2004 08:14 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pghrally[/i]
[B] Re: those 2 guys that had their accidents covered- you know this for a fact? That is interesting, and I hope it's true. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, I know this for a fact - not I heard it from a friend who knows a guy with a cousin that went to school with a hooker that serviced a guy that read about it on an internet board. I was the event chairman at the rally-x where the wrx went over.
The ice race was talked about extensively here - can't remember if it was 2002 or 2003, but Clegg was pretty open about his dealings with the insurance company.
Feb 2003 there was an accident between a rally car and a civilian car on a transit stage at 100 Acre Wood. It would be interesting to know if that was covered by the drivers insurance (as is supposed to be the case). I believe there are some legal dealings still surrounding that accident so I doubt if anyone would let us know for sure.
[B] Re: those 2 guys that had their accidents covered- you know this for a fact? That is interesting, and I hope it's true. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, I know this for a fact - not I heard it from a friend who knows a guy with a cousin that went to school with a hooker that serviced a guy that read about it on an internet board. I was the event chairman at the rally-x where the wrx went over.
The ice race was talked about extensively here - can't remember if it was 2002 or 2003, but Clegg was pretty open about his dealings with the insurance company.
Feb 2003 there was an accident between a rally car and a civilian car on a transit stage at 100 Acre Wood. It would be interesting to know if that was covered by the drivers insurance (as is supposed to be the case). I believe there are some legal dealings still surrounding that accident so I doubt if anyone would let us know for sure.
| 8Complex | 03-31-2004 08:56 PM |
It took me a while to find it, but you can see how Sean managed to get his autocross accident covered in this post --> [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53552&highlight=fence[/url]
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted)
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted)
| paultg | 04-01-2004 06:27 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]It took me a while to find it, but you can see how Sean managed to get his autocross accident covered in this post --> [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53552&highlight=fence[/url]
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted) [/B][/QUOTE]
Sean's event was an SCCA sponsered event, put on the the Philly region of the SCCA. Just to clarify.
Paul G.
[B]It took me a while to find it, but you can see how Sean managed to get his autocross accident covered in this post --> [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53552&highlight=fence[/url]
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted) [/B][/QUOTE]
Sean's event was an SCCA sponsered event, put on the the Philly region of the SCCA. Just to clarify.
Paul G.
| Pghrally | 04-01-2004 11:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 8Complex [/i]
[B]It took me a while to find it, but you can see how Sean managed to get his autocross accident covered in this post --> [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53552&highlight=fence[/url]
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted) [/B][/QUOTE]
Did it say in that thread that his car's repair was covered under insurance? I read it twice and only saw the fence being covered by the SCCA's insurance, which seems to be reasonable.
But that situation is completley different than trying to get the car repaired under your own auto policy. The SCCA's insurance exists for these types of events, and for public liability. I'd sign every waiver they had if it was going to cover my car in the event of banging it up, but that just isn't how it works.
[B]It took me a while to find it, but you can see how Sean managed to get his autocross accident covered in this post --> [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=53552&highlight=fence[/url]
(yes, I was a n00b back when that posted) [/B][/QUOTE]
Did it say in that thread that his car's repair was covered under insurance? I read it twice and only saw the fence being covered by the SCCA's insurance, which seems to be reasonable.
But that situation is completley different than trying to get the car repaired under your own auto policy. The SCCA's insurance exists for these types of events, and for public liability. I'd sign every waiver they had if it was going to cover my car in the event of banging it up, but that just isn't how it works.
| paultg | 04-01-2004 12:12 PM |
I know Sean, and his car was covered by his auto insurance company. The damage to the site was covered under the SCCA insurance policy,
So yes, Sean's car was repaired via a check from his insurance company.
Also:
Patrick Olsen rolled his Legacy at Limerock some time ago. The car was a complete loss. His insurance company wrote him a check and then I believe they dropped him (I'm not sure on all the details). He rolled during a practice session, which according to him is what allowed him to be covered (they were not timing laps).
I don't know who these two had policies with, or what the wording of the policies say. These were both a few years ago.
Paul G.
So yes, Sean's car was repaired via a check from his insurance company.
Also:
Patrick Olsen rolled his Legacy at Limerock some time ago. The car was a complete loss. His insurance company wrote him a check and then I believe they dropped him (I'm not sure on all the details). He rolled during a practice session, which according to him is what allowed him to be covered (they were not timing laps).
I don't know who these two had policies with, or what the wording of the policies say. These were both a few years ago.
Paul G.
| Aphex28 | 04-01-2004 12:48 PM |
sorry to hear this dude, best of luck getting it back into tip top condition
| WRCwannabe | 04-01-2004 01:04 PM |
It's a hoax!
Some April Fools Tom-foolery!
Unless it's not......
In which case..... sorry about your car, dude. :(
Some April Fools Tom-foolery!
Unless it's not......
In which case..... sorry about your car, dude. :(
| whitenoise77 | 04-01-2004 01:36 PM |
did you sign a waiver when you were registering of the event?
For auto-x, everyone that enters the area (even spectators) must sign a waiver. it also says the insurance company will not cover any damage during the event. So if a driver hits a spectator's car, both cars are not covered by the insurance assuming both parties have sign the waiver.
For auto-x, everyone that enters the area (even spectators) must sign a waiver. it also says the insurance company will not cover any damage during the event. So if a driver hits a spectator's car, both cars are not covered by the insurance assuming both parties have sign the waiver.
| Pghrally | 04-01-2004 02:19 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by paultg [/i]
[B]Also:
Patrick Olsen rolled his Legacy at Limerock some time ago. The car was a complete loss. His insurance company wrote him a check and then I believe they dropped him (I'm not sure on all the details). He rolled during a practice session, which according to him is what allowed him to be covered (they were not timing laps).
I don't know who these two had policies with, or what the wording of the policies say. These were both a few years ago.
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what makes me say it might not be worth it to have this claim on your policy...covered, but dropped! OUCH! How is MA when you get dropped? PA is rough, you automatically are forced to pay the highest rate level if an insurance company drops you.
[B]Also:
Patrick Olsen rolled his Legacy at Limerock some time ago. The car was a complete loss. His insurance company wrote him a check and then I believe they dropped him (I'm not sure on all the details). He rolled during a practice session, which according to him is what allowed him to be covered (they were not timing laps).
I don't know who these two had policies with, or what the wording of the policies say. These were both a few years ago.
Paul G. [/B][/QUOTE]
That's what makes me say it might not be worth it to have this claim on your policy...covered, but dropped! OUCH! How is MA when you get dropped? PA is rough, you automatically are forced to pay the highest rate level if an insurance company drops you.
| paultg | 04-01-2004 02:46 PM |
Ma is weird. I've never been dropped, so I don't know.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by whitenoise77 [/i]
[B]did you sign a waiver when you were registering of the event?
For auto-x, everyone that enters the area (even spectators) must sign a waiver. it also says the insurance company will not cover any damage during the event. So if a driver hits a spectator's car, both cars are not covered by the insurance assuming both parties have sign the waiver. [/B][/QUOTE]
Your confusing things I think.
The waiver you sign is to waive any responsibilty you may think the car club insurance has if you or your auto are injured. So, the club insurance won't pay for anything except damage to the site or their equipment. The waiver has nothing to do with your actual auto insurance policy.
In Sean's case, the club insurance (SCCA) covered damages to the property (the fence he it). Sean's own auto insurance company covered the damage to his car. I know for a fact he did not lie about any details when discussing the incident with his own auto insurance company.
Paul G.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by whitenoise77 [/i]
[B]did you sign a waiver when you were registering of the event?
For auto-x, everyone that enters the area (even spectators) must sign a waiver. it also says the insurance company will not cover any damage during the event. So if a driver hits a spectator's car, both cars are not covered by the insurance assuming both parties have sign the waiver. [/B][/QUOTE]
Your confusing things I think.
The waiver you sign is to waive any responsibilty you may think the car club insurance has if you or your auto are injured. So, the club insurance won't pay for anything except damage to the site or their equipment. The waiver has nothing to do with your actual auto insurance policy.
In Sean's case, the club insurance (SCCA) covered damages to the property (the fence he it). Sean's own auto insurance company covered the damage to his car. I know for a fact he did not lie about any details when discussing the incident with his own auto insurance company.
Paul G.
| zosima | 04-02-2004 02:14 PM |
Well, I have some info back. The total that the body shop gave me was 5,599.72, including some work on the uniboyd :(. I can easily pull that under 4 without replacing the headlamp (scuffed) or lower bumper (dent). The body shop was amiable to putting on my parts if I was doing this out of pocket.
I also finally called Amica and heard their final response.
[QUOTE]
Per your request, attached is the portion of the policy stating that wie will not pay for collision damage while an auto is being operated in a prearranged or organized racing. A denial letter is being sent to you.
[/QUOTE]
So, this time they are using pertinent wording from my policy. It probably will not be worth argueing more over the definition of "racing" unless I have something stronger to stand on (since I really only have the non-speed definition to work with from the FCSCC's president's quote of the SCCA rulebook). Looks like I am just going to have to suck this one up unless you have better advice. I am really curious about the verbal denial of coverage, but I suppose there is little I can do with that.
I also finally called Amica and heard their final response.
[QUOTE]
Per your request, attached is the portion of the policy stating that wie will not pay for collision damage while an auto is being operated in a prearranged or organized racing. A denial letter is being sent to you.
[/QUOTE]
So, this time they are using pertinent wording from my policy. It probably will not be worth argueing more over the definition of "racing" unless I have something stronger to stand on (since I really only have the non-speed definition to work with from the FCSCC's president's quote of the SCCA rulebook). Looks like I am just going to have to suck this one up unless you have better advice. I am really curious about the verbal denial of coverage, but I suppose there is little I can do with that.
| zosima | 04-02-2004 02:15 PM |
whitenoise77: I did sign the waiver, but as paultg said that is only for holding the organizer's liable.
| rallynutdon | 04-02-2004 02:41 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zosima [/i]
[B]Well, I have some info back. The total that the body shop gave me was 5,599.72, including some work on the uniboyd :(.
That sound like a lot. How much is just the cost of pullng the unibody?
[B]Well, I have some info back. The total that the body shop gave me was 5,599.72, including some work on the uniboyd :(.
That sound like a lot. How much is just the cost of pullng the unibody?
| zosima | 04-02-2004 02:53 PM |
970.22, including replacing/finishing part #51620FE022.... I don't know what that is :( (couldn't find it on [url]http://subaruparts.com[/url])
| paultg | 04-02-2004 09:10 PM |
They are hoping you give up. It saves them money.
If you pursue this and/or get legal assistance you might be able to get the incident covered. It depends on what the letter says, and if the wording is the same as your policy info or not.
I'd suggest you get a few estimates but the car isn't driveable. The cost does seem sort of high (I guess I'm surprised). It's hard to say though w/o pulling the wheel off and looking at the damage.
You can call [url]www.subaruwrxparts.com[/url] and ask for Brian. He is North Ursalia on the board. He can run all the part numbers for you and give you a price for them. It might save you some money, but make sure the body shop will allow that.
You could also try to find used parts, but check cost of new first.
Call [url]www.fandsauto.com[/url] (the can be expensive though), [url]www.rallispec.com[/url] (in NJ) , Teagues Auto ( [url]http://home.att.net/~teaguesauto/index.htm[/url] ) or try to locate someone on the site with a wrecked car they are parting out. Legacy Jones in Nesic had a sedan hit in the front. He might have some suspension stuff though, I'm not sure.
Paul G.
If you pursue this and/or get legal assistance you might be able to get the incident covered. It depends on what the letter says, and if the wording is the same as your policy info or not.
I'd suggest you get a few estimates but the car isn't driveable. The cost does seem sort of high (I guess I'm surprised). It's hard to say though w/o pulling the wheel off and looking at the damage.
You can call [url]www.subaruwrxparts.com[/url] and ask for Brian. He is North Ursalia on the board. He can run all the part numbers for you and give you a price for them. It might save you some money, but make sure the body shop will allow that.
You could also try to find used parts, but check cost of new first.
Call [url]www.fandsauto.com[/url] (the can be expensive though), [url]www.rallispec.com[/url] (in NJ) , Teagues Auto ( [url]http://home.att.net/~teaguesauto/index.htm[/url] ) or try to locate someone on the site with a wrecked car they are parting out. Legacy Jones in Nesic had a sedan hit in the front. He might have some suspension stuff though, I'm not sure.
Paul G.
| JohnW | 04-03-2004 01:17 AM |
I'm sorry for your loss. I've looked into track insurance and it wouldn't have helped you much because of the high deductible. I think for my WRX, it was something like $450/year (about $200 per 10K in value) but with a 20% deductible. So, the deductible would have been around $5000.
The track insurance is only good for total loss in my opinion.
Here is a link:
[url]http://www.americancollectorsins.com/[/url]
The track insurance is only good for total loss in my opinion.
Here is a link:
[url]http://www.americancollectorsins.com/[/url]
| zosima | 04-03-2004 04:52 PM |
First, the damage was worse that the outside pictures look... I didn't see the unibody damage, but I know the endlnk snaped and the swaybar was bent. I was not that suprised that there was unibody damage and bent control arms. I am just going to have this guy do the work. I was looking a little at getting the parts myself but he is charging me retail and I couldn't find a way to get them cheaper without waiting longer, and I want my car back :). JohnW: good find on the track insurance, do you mind if I quote you on the local SCCA mailing list? $450/yr is a lot for something that would only be good for a total, especially since I don't track the car. Still a good find though.
| 614inda617 | 04-03-2004 10:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JohnW [/i]
[B]I'm sorry for your loss. I've looked into track insurance and it wouldn't have helped you much because of the high deductible. I think for my WRX, it was something like $450/year (about $200 per 10K in value) but with a 20% deductible. So, the deductible would have been around $5000.
The track insurance is only good for total loss in my opinion.
Here is a link:
[url]http://www.americancollectorsins.com/[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I took a look at this site and it appears to be for collector cars only. Is your WRX a collectable already? :)
[QUOTE][i]From [url]www.americancollectorsins.com[/url] [/i][b]Vehicle 1 is newer than 25 years and is not included in quote.[/b][/QUOTE]
Just messing around. But seriously, is this the right site? Do I have to call them to find out about trackday/autox ins?
Thanks in advance,
Mike
[B]I'm sorry for your loss. I've looked into track insurance and it wouldn't have helped you much because of the high deductible. I think for my WRX, it was something like $450/year (about $200 per 10K in value) but with a 20% deductible. So, the deductible would have been around $5000.
The track insurance is only good for total loss in my opinion.
Here is a link:
[url]http://www.americancollectorsins.com/[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
I took a look at this site and it appears to be for collector cars only. Is your WRX a collectable already? :)
[QUOTE][i]From [url]www.americancollectorsins.com[/url] [/i][b]Vehicle 1 is newer than 25 years and is not included in quote.[/b][/QUOTE]
Just messing around. But seriously, is this the right site? Do I have to call them to find out about trackday/autox ins?
Thanks in advance,
Mike
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