| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 09-18-2006 12:36 AM |
Hello,
So... I'm going to have to retract a little of my over-exuberance... there are qualities of the LGT that certainly make it a better road racing car, which probably include wheelbase, front suspension point locations, weight distribution, etc. However, over the course of a season of racing the LGT, I came to dislike the rear suspension a whole bunch. Obviously, Subaru was honest when they admitted that they made the multi-link rear suspension in order to provide more trunk space in their "luxury" line of cars... the rear suspension has to ride at stock height to have any real compression distance that doesn't cause bind. Once you lower the car, you get all sorts of binding issues - look at the planes that the individual arms attach in, to the hub - each attaches in a different plane. If you remove the spring from the system, you still can barely budge the suspension because movement requires binding the bushings and moving them in directions other than rotating within the centerline of the bushing.
Also, Subaru didn't design the suspension to be lowered at all! Once you lower the car, you end up with a massive camber versus toe trade-off that basically drives your rideheight. How low do you want to be? Well, how much toe-in or how little negative camber do you want?
So, while the car is very quick in its basic racing form, significant changes will be required to the rear in order to move up in the racing world. I'm guessing Subaru will make those changes in the upcoming legacy-based WRX platform, but for now, I think the LGT is best left to racing in near-stock classes where near-stock rideheights can make sense and where the rear suspenion binding doesn't affect the handling significantly...
So, I love the LGT and would probably get one (spec B) in favor of an STI if I had to do it again, but that's as a street/track car. If I was starting from scratch to build a racecar... I'd either expect a huge amount of rear suspension modification or I'd expect to be fighting significant compromises at all times... (fighting notwithstanding, the car can still be pretty dang fast, as shown in the quoted example)
Joel Gat
(not crew chiefing for a Subaru team this coming season)
So... I'm going to have to retract a little of my over-exuberance... there are qualities of the LGT that certainly make it a better road racing car, which probably include wheelbase, front suspension point locations, weight distribution, etc. However, over the course of a season of racing the LGT, I came to dislike the rear suspension a whole bunch. Obviously, Subaru was honest when they admitted that they made the multi-link rear suspension in order to provide more trunk space in their "luxury" line of cars... the rear suspension has to ride at stock height to have any real compression distance that doesn't cause bind. Once you lower the car, you get all sorts of binding issues - look at the planes that the individual arms attach in, to the hub - each attaches in a different plane. If you remove the spring from the system, you still can barely budge the suspension because movement requires binding the bushings and moving them in directions other than rotating within the centerline of the bushing.
Also, Subaru didn't design the suspension to be lowered at all! Once you lower the car, you end up with a massive camber versus toe trade-off that basically drives your rideheight. How low do you want to be? Well, how much toe-in or how little negative camber do you want?
So, while the car is very quick in its basic racing form, significant changes will be required to the rear in order to move up in the racing world. I'm guessing Subaru will make those changes in the upcoming legacy-based WRX platform, but for now, I think the LGT is best left to racing in near-stock classes where near-stock rideheights can make sense and where the rear suspenion binding doesn't affect the handling significantly...
So, I love the LGT and would probably get one (spec B) in favor of an STI if I had to do it again, but that's as a street/track car. If I was starting from scratch to build a racecar... I'd either expect a huge amount of rear suspension modification or I'd expect to be fighting significant compromises at all times... (fighting notwithstanding, the car can still be pretty dang fast, as shown in the quoted example)
Joel Gat
(not crew chiefing for a Subaru team this coming season)
| LastResort | 09-18-2006 12:53 AM |
I suppose that really doesn't affect those of us that plan of using it as a DD, but probably a bit of a bummer to you guys. Though, pressing into new territories does allow for unforeseen complications.
Always a fan, and love the feed back about our cars, positive or negative.
Always a fan, and love the feed back about our cars, positive or negative.
| DMS North America | 09-18-2006 09:34 AM |
I personally do not recommend dropping the legacy chassis beyond anything over 5-10 mm. Our setups are designed with this in mind for a reason.
I have seen multiple subaru race cars, both impreza and legacy, that are trying to lower the center of gravity without doing the required mods to support this. If you are not allowed to modify suspension pickup points, geometery etc, there is nothing to gain speed wise by lowering the car beyond a certain point, and the legacy is a prime example of this.
I still have been able to get faster lap times with a legacy than an STI with similar setups, and the same driver for both cars on multiple occasions.
Cheers,
-mark
I have seen multiple subaru race cars, both impreza and legacy, that are trying to lower the center of gravity without doing the required mods to support this. If you are not allowed to modify suspension pickup points, geometery etc, there is nothing to gain speed wise by lowering the car beyond a certain point, and the legacy is a prime example of this.
I still have been able to get faster lap times with a legacy than an STI with similar setups, and the same driver for both cars on multiple occasions.
Cheers,
-mark
| Mykl | 09-18-2006 10:10 AM |
[QUOTE=LastResort;15278337]This is the post I have been looking for regarding this discussion:
So there you have it.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't argue with that, but I think out of the box the STi is still a better platform for those of us who don't have an unlimited budget. What I mean by this is that the STi comes out of the box with more robust parts that are better able to handle the abuse of track driving on a regular basis.
I don't know much about the Legacy, but that said, I could definitely see myself driving one if it came with a few key parts...
STi gearbox (DCCD would be nice, but not necessary)
STi front and rear differentials
STi front wheel bearings to include 5x114 bolt pattern
Brembo brakes, or brakes big enough to handle the heat with track pads
So there you have it.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't argue with that, but I think out of the box the STi is still a better platform for those of us who don't have an unlimited budget. What I mean by this is that the STi comes out of the box with more robust parts that are better able to handle the abuse of track driving on a regular basis.
I don't know much about the Legacy, but that said, I could definitely see myself driving one if it came with a few key parts...
STi gearbox (DCCD would be nice, but not necessary)
STi front and rear differentials
STi front wheel bearings to include 5x114 bolt pattern
Brembo brakes, or brakes big enough to handle the heat with track pads
| burnin4 | 09-18-2006 10:24 AM |
just for entertainment purposes, here's a crappy vid of me spanking an STi at teh dragstrip with my lgt :D
[url]http://media.putfile.com/lgt-vs-sti[/url]
[url]http://media.putfile.com/lgt-vs-sti[/url]
| RobY | 09-18-2006 05:35 PM |
[QUOTE=Mykl;15283128]I wouldn't argue with that, but I think out of the box the STi is still a better platform for those of us who don't have an unlimited budget. What I mean by this is that the STi comes out of the box with more robust parts that are better able to handle the abuse of track driving on a regular basis.
I don't know much about the Legacy, but that said, I could definitely see myself driving one if it came with a few key parts...
STi gearbox (DCCD would be nice, but not necessary)
STi front and rear differentials
STi front wheel bearings to include 5x114 bolt pattern
Brembo brakes, or brakes big enough to handle the heat with track pads[/QUOTE]
-GrandAM Legacy uses the stock gearbox.
-The GOTO legacy uses aftermerket diffs, the ICY legacy uses stock diffs. Both are competitive.
-Could be a issue in terms of durability and wheel selection.
-GrandAM legacy uses stock calipers as dictated by rules.
I don't know much about the Legacy, but that said, I could definitely see myself driving one if it came with a few key parts...
STi gearbox (DCCD would be nice, but not necessary)
STi front and rear differentials
STi front wheel bearings to include 5x114 bolt pattern
Brembo brakes, or brakes big enough to handle the heat with track pads[/QUOTE]
-GrandAM Legacy uses the stock gearbox.
-The GOTO legacy uses aftermerket diffs, the ICY legacy uses stock diffs. Both are competitive.
-Could be a issue in terms of durability and wheel selection.
-GrandAM legacy uses stock calipers as dictated by rules.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 09-18-2006 05:51 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=RobY;15289468]-The GOTO legacy uses aftermerket diffs, the ICY legacy uses stock diffs. Both are competitive. [/QUOTE]
Just a quick point here - the ICY legacy, frankly, sucked when it was on stock diffs. The stock diffs are great for driving around town, but they're certainly not racing diffs and they're certainly not ideal for race tracks.
It was only after Dave @ ICY came over to the GOTO paddock and asked about diffs that the ICY wagon started to handle reasonably. Steve @ GOTO shared data with the fellow Subaru team, explained how the KAAZ diffs worked, what benefits there were to using them, etc., and within a couple races, the ICY Legacy was significantly less 'slammed' and had "secret" diffs in it... and handled significantly better.
That all said, yeah, the stock diffs in the STI are better than the diffs in the LGT, from a track perspective. The Spec B goes a good distance towards closing that gap, though, and gives you the beefier tranny to boot, too.
Joel
[QUOTE=RobY;15289468]-The GOTO legacy uses aftermerket diffs, the ICY legacy uses stock diffs. Both are competitive. [/QUOTE]
Just a quick point here - the ICY legacy, frankly, sucked when it was on stock diffs. The stock diffs are great for driving around town, but they're certainly not racing diffs and they're certainly not ideal for race tracks.
It was only after Dave @ ICY came over to the GOTO paddock and asked about diffs that the ICY wagon started to handle reasonably. Steve @ GOTO shared data with the fellow Subaru team, explained how the KAAZ diffs worked, what benefits there were to using them, etc., and within a couple races, the ICY Legacy was significantly less 'slammed' and had "secret" diffs in it... and handled significantly better.
That all said, yeah, the stock diffs in the STI are better than the diffs in the LGT, from a track perspective. The Spec B goes a good distance towards closing that gap, though, and gives you the beefier tranny to boot, too.
Joel
| silverlegacy | 09-18-2006 06:09 PM |
As pointed out before the LGT can't really be lowered much, but nor do you really want it too. To lower it you would need adjustable links with syperical bearings or something of the sort. The best ride height in my opinion is about 20mm lower in the rear and about the same in the front. The Japanese cars are already 15mm lower than the USDM. So it makes sense that that is around the best point of handeling.
The boat is still out on the 5 speeds too. I don't know of one case where they have broke and there are plenty of people around 350whp.
The boat is still out on the 5 speeds too. I don't know of one case where they have broke and there are plenty of people around 350whp.
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