| xknowonex | 04-22-2006 03:36 AM |
Chevrolet Cobalt = Best Time Attack Car??
�
�
Time Attack Results: [url]http://superstreetonline.com/eventcoverage/130_0511_timeattack/[/url]
It has won many time attack events against cars with superior suspension configurations - EVOs, Skylines, STis - and against cars with much greater power advantage.
[IMG]http://www.gmperformancedivision.com/content/vehicle/31/TA_Main.jpg[/IMG]
Specifications
� Stage 2+ Ecotec engine developed by GM Performance Division and GM Powertrain
o 264 hp @ 7000 rpm (344 horsepower @ 6800 rpm with nitrous boost)
o 230 lb.-ft. of torque at 4000 rpm (350 lb.-ft. of torque @ 3600 rpm with nitrous boost)
� Eaton M-62 Gen 5 Hybrid supercharger
� Carbon fiber body panels (fenders, hood, doors, roof, decklid, side splitters and spoiler)
� Modified suspension, tires and brakes
� Glass replaced with Lexan
� Corsa exhaust system
� Fuel cell
� Nitrous oxide system
� Race paint scheme with sponsor logos
� Race wheels
� Minimal interior trim
� Full roll cage and side net
� Sparco race steering wheel
� Safety system per National Auto Sport Association race rules
� Sparco carbon fiber race seat
� Race gauge package
I saw it couple import magazines which led me to do some more research online. It is said that the brake calipers on that car is still stock and its still retaining a factory suspension config = macpherson struts in the front and beam in the rear. It doesnt even have an independent rear suspension!!!
Its crazy that it beat out so many respectable time attack cars such as Skylines, EVOs, and WRXs while having an antiquated suspension setup and having only 2xx horsepower. It is said that theyll bring it to the Tsukuba track in Japan.
It has won many time attack events against cars with superior suspension configurations - EVOs, Skylines, STis - and against cars with much greater power advantage.
[IMG]http://www.gmperformancedivision.com/content/vehicle/31/TA_Main.jpg[/IMG]
Specifications
� Stage 2+ Ecotec engine developed by GM Performance Division and GM Powertrain
o 264 hp @ 7000 rpm (344 horsepower @ 6800 rpm with nitrous boost)
o 230 lb.-ft. of torque at 4000 rpm (350 lb.-ft. of torque @ 3600 rpm with nitrous boost)
� Eaton M-62 Gen 5 Hybrid supercharger
� Carbon fiber body panels (fenders, hood, doors, roof, decklid, side splitters and spoiler)
� Modified suspension, tires and brakes
� Glass replaced with Lexan
� Corsa exhaust system
� Fuel cell
� Nitrous oxide system
� Race paint scheme with sponsor logos
� Race wheels
� Minimal interior trim
� Full roll cage and side net
� Sparco race steering wheel
� Safety system per National Auto Sport Association race rules
� Sparco carbon fiber race seat
� Race gauge package
I saw it couple import magazines which led me to do some more research online. It is said that the brake calipers on that car is still stock and its still retaining a factory suspension config = macpherson struts in the front and beam in the rear. It doesnt even have an independent rear suspension!!!
Its crazy that it beat out so many respectable time attack cars such as Skylines, EVOs, and WRXs while having an antiquated suspension setup and having only 2xx horsepower. It is said that theyll bring it to the Tsukuba track in Japan.
| Impreza01 | 04-22-2006 04:09 AM |
[QUOTE=xknowonex]It has won many time attack events against cars with superior suspension configurations - EVOs, Skylines, STis - and against cars with much greater power advantage.
[/QUOTE]
The question is whether it was the car or it was the team or both that made this GM car the winner. This was the only factory backed car. It had a pro driver and factory engineers and mechanics.
[/QUOTE]
The question is whether it was the car or it was the team or both that made this GM car the winner. This was the only factory backed car. It had a pro driver and factory engineers and mechanics.
| Pakin | 04-22-2006 04:16 AM |
There was a thread on this a while back which explained it. I recall a few things from that.
Simply put, the GM dev. team was well-rounded, organized, and more experienced that of the other teams out there and coupled with a good driver.
It was not that Cobalt had inferior "suspension configurations". This was a team dedicated to building a car that was for racing and with a goal of winning, even with the restrictions of FWD and a more simplistic chassis. This car was all-go, not a showcase/parts ideal of JDM/fancy parts or whatnot. A case between big name tuner/parts shops and a corporate-backed team with engineers. I have respect for a team thats new and reintroducing a well old concept of making a car fast in all aspects by what ever means. Maybe some of the other teams will take a hint and build upon that concept.
-paK +2
Simply put, the GM dev. team was well-rounded, organized, and more experienced that of the other teams out there and coupled with a good driver.
It was not that Cobalt had inferior "suspension configurations". This was a team dedicated to building a car that was for racing and with a goal of winning, even with the restrictions of FWD and a more simplistic chassis. This car was all-go, not a showcase/parts ideal of JDM/fancy parts or whatnot. A case between big name tuner/parts shops and a corporate-backed team with engineers. I have respect for a team thats new and reintroducing a well old concept of making a car fast in all aspects by what ever means. Maybe some of the other teams will take a hint and build upon that concept.
-paK +2
| trhoppe | 04-22-2006 10:04 AM |
Gotta love n00bs.
[quote]� Race paint scheme with sponsor logos [/quote] I think it was this that put them up top
-Tom
[quote]� Race paint scheme with sponsor logos [/quote] I think it was this that put them up top
-Tom
| [email�protected] | 04-22-2006 10:12 AM |
I'm sure if TRD or SPT showed up with a multi million dollar race team backing them, it would not be the same outcome. As I've said on other web sites, this car does not reflect what the average person can do, much like the other cars do. To each there own.
| Crash477 | 04-22-2006 11:43 AM |
I dont know about the time attack, but I drove a 05 Cobalt SS, and an 04 WRX that were both completely stock at the last autox school. I was 2 seconds faster in the Cobalt. I'm sure that means nothing, but it was a good car.
| 10th Warrior | 04-22-2006 11:56 AM |
gee, maybe the driver might have something to do with it. nah, must have been the race paint and the NAAAAAAAWWSSSSS
| The_Anti_Hero | 04-22-2006 12:00 PM |
basicly, that cobolt is a well sorted race car. most of the others are street cars with aftermarket parts bolted on...
| Butt Dyno | 04-22-2006 12:40 PM |
[QUOTE=xknowonex]Time Attack Results: [url]http://superstreetonline.com/eventcoverage/130_0511_timeattack/[/url]
[/QUOTE]
[quote=Results]
Place Car # Team Driver Car Overall Best Time Class Toyo RA1
1 12 GM Performance Division [color=red]John Heinricy[/color] 2006 Chevrolet Cobalt SS 01:51.318 Unlimited FF
[/quote]
... yeah
[/QUOTE]
[quote=Results]
Place Car # Team Driver Car Overall Best Time Class Toyo RA1
1 12 GM Performance Division [color=red]John Heinricy[/color] 2006 Chevrolet Cobalt SS 01:51.318 Unlimited FF
[/quote]
... yeah
| STi-MAN | 04-22-2006 01:01 PM |
remember this car was fast but didnt beat out the record which the cyber evo has made.
| hondahata | 04-22-2006 01:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Pakin]There was a thread on this a while back which explained it. I recall a few things from that.
Simply put, the GM dev. team was well-rounded, organized, and more experienced that of the other teams out there and coupled with a good driver.
It was not that Cobalt had inferior "suspension configurations". This was a team dedicated to building a car that was for racing and with a goal of winning, even with the restrictions of FWD and a more simplistic chassis. This car was all-go, not a showcase/parts ideal of JDM/fancy parts or whatnot. A case between big name tuner/parts shops and a corporate-backed team with engineers. I have respect for a team thats new and reintroducing a well old concept of making a car fast in all aspects by what ever means. Maybe some of the other teams will take a hint and build upon that concept.
-paK +2[/QUOTE]
Be clear...it was A CORPORATE SPONSORED event. The only car there that brought with it engineers, mechanics, professional drivers, etc. I heard they even brought the GM tour styled bus with cooks, full course lunch, tables and table cloths. Now thats just a wee bit more than just showing up with some free parts given to you by a company along with good wishes. Thats not to say they cant be competed against or even beaten---its just that, if I recall those threads, most guys didn't know it was going to be "all that." I remember one tuner specifically saying he will be prepared next time. GM set a standard at that event that I think will be more closely matched from here on out. Now if they would just consider AWD, I will consider their car. :D
Simply put, the GM dev. team was well-rounded, organized, and more experienced that of the other teams out there and coupled with a good driver.
It was not that Cobalt had inferior "suspension configurations". This was a team dedicated to building a car that was for racing and with a goal of winning, even with the restrictions of FWD and a more simplistic chassis. This car was all-go, not a showcase/parts ideal of JDM/fancy parts or whatnot. A case between big name tuner/parts shops and a corporate-backed team with engineers. I have respect for a team thats new and reintroducing a well old concept of making a car fast in all aspects by what ever means. Maybe some of the other teams will take a hint and build upon that concept.
-paK +2[/QUOTE]
Be clear...it was A CORPORATE SPONSORED event. The only car there that brought with it engineers, mechanics, professional drivers, etc. I heard they even brought the GM tour styled bus with cooks, full course lunch, tables and table cloths. Now thats just a wee bit more than just showing up with some free parts given to you by a company along with good wishes. Thats not to say they cant be competed against or even beaten---its just that, if I recall those threads, most guys didn't know it was going to be "all that." I remember one tuner specifically saying he will be prepared next time. GM set a standard at that event that I think will be more closely matched from here on out. Now if they would just consider AWD, I will consider their car. :D
| flyboymike | 04-22-2006 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]... yeah[/QUOTE]
Doesn't Heinricy usually drive a Z06 in Speed World Challenge? He must be pretty good to do so well with two completely different vehicles.
Doesn't Heinricy usually drive a Z06 in Speed World Challenge? He must be pretty good to do so well with two completely different vehicles.
| ChrisDP | 04-22-2006 02:38 PM |
[QUOTE=flyboymike]Doesn't Heinricy usually drive a Z06 in Speed World Challenge? He must be pretty good to do so well with two completely different vehicles.[/QUOTE]
I would say he doesn't suck too much. From time to time he's been in T1 Vettes, T2 Camaros, ASedan Camaros, Showroom Stock Cobalt... He has done okay in them.
I would say he doesn't suck too much. From time to time he's been in T1 Vettes, T2 Camaros, ASedan Camaros, Showroom Stock Cobalt... He has done okay in them.
| 10th Warrior | 04-22-2006 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisDP]I would say he doesn't suck too much. From time to time he's been in T1 Vettes, T2 Camaros, ASedan Camaros, Showroom Stock Cobalt... He has done okay in them.[/QUOTE]
[quote=The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]
un�der�state�ment (ndr-sttmnt, ndr-stt-)
n.
A disclosure or statement that is less than complete.
Restraint or lack of emphasis in expression, as for rhetorical effect.
Restraint in artistic expression. [/quote]
A fine example :)
[quote=The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]
un�der�state�ment (ndr-sttmnt, ndr-stt-)
n.
A disclosure or statement that is less than complete.
Restraint or lack of emphasis in expression, as for rhetorical effect.
Restraint in artistic expression. [/quote]
A fine example :)
| badboiWRX | 04-22-2006 03:26 PM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN]remember this car was fast but didnt beat out the record which the cyber evo has made.[/QUOTE]
the gap is about 2.5 seconds between the cyber evo and the cobalt... 2nd fastest time EVER is impressive no matter what car it is, but its even more impressive given the fact its FWD and its a CHEVY COBALT!!!
considering the cyber evo is one of the fastest purpose built time attack cars in japan right now, it makes it even more impressive. its 1 second off the HKS EVO who is king of JDM time attack right now.
the gap is about 2.5 seconds between the cyber evo and the cobalt... 2nd fastest time EVER is impressive no matter what car it is, but its even more impressive given the fact its FWD and its a CHEVY COBALT!!!
considering the cyber evo is one of the fastest purpose built time attack cars in japan right now, it makes it even more impressive. its 1 second off the HKS EVO who is king of JDM time attack right now.
| STi-MAN | 04-22-2006 03:31 PM |
[QUOTE=badboiWRX]the gap is about 2.5 seconds between the cyber evo and the cobalt... 2nd fastest time EVER is impressive no matter what car it is, but its even more impressive given the fact its FWD and its a CHEVY COBALT!!!
considering the cyber evo is one of the fastest purpose built time attack cars in japan right now, it makes it even more impressive. its 1 second off the HKS EVO who is king of JDM time attack right now.[/QUOTE]
also remember that the cobalt is FACTORY backed... this car was changing to new tires every 3 runs or so.. the cyber evo might have a high budget but not as much as chevy does.
p.s. 2.5 seconds is alot.
considering the cyber evo is one of the fastest purpose built time attack cars in japan right now, it makes it even more impressive. its 1 second off the HKS EVO who is king of JDM time attack right now.[/QUOTE]
also remember that the cobalt is FACTORY backed... this car was changing to new tires every 3 runs or so.. the cyber evo might have a high budget but not as much as chevy does.
p.s. 2.5 seconds is alot.
| zzyzx | 04-22-2006 03:32 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]Understatement[/QUOTE]
I was thinking sarcasm myself...
Was this the Cobalt featured Street Tuner Challenge? Sounds like it.
I was thinking sarcasm myself...
Was this the Cobalt featured Street Tuner Challenge? Sounds like it.
| zzyzx | 04-22-2006 03:34 PM |
[QUOTE=badboiWRX]considering the cyber evo is one of the fastest purpose built time attack cars in japan right now, it makes it even more impressive. its 1 second off the HKS EVO who is king of JDM time attack right now.[/QUOTE]
US: 1
Japan: 0
US > Japan for Time Attack. :alien:
US: 1
Japan: 0
US > Japan for Time Attack. :alien:
| PA04STI | 04-22-2006 04:39 PM |
The big question to ask yourself is:
Is this a Cobalt that is modified?....NO
Is it a full built race car?....YES
Can the average person have a car like that?....YES, if they want to spend $100,000+ on a Cobalt....I'll take a Lingenfelter Z06....Thanks
Oh yeah and a professional driver never hurt either!!!
Matt
Is this a Cobalt that is modified?....NO
Is it a full built race car?....YES
Can the average person have a car like that?....YES, if they want to spend $100,000+ on a Cobalt....I'll take a Lingenfelter Z06....Thanks
Oh yeah and a professional driver never hurt either!!!
Matt
| Student Driver | 04-22-2006 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=flyboymike]Doesn't Heinricy usually drive a Z06 in Speed World Challenge? He must be pretty good to do so well with two completely different vehicles.[/QUOTE]
In the Speed World Challenge, I believe he's been brought in from time-to-time to get points for the Cadillac team. He could have probably set a record time in a Cobalt-based golf cart if they'd let him.
In the Speed World Challenge, I believe he's been brought in from time-to-time to get points for the Cadillac team. He could have probably set a record time in a Cobalt-based golf cart if they'd let him.
| buster | 04-22-2006 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE=PA04STI]The big question to ask yourself is:
Is this a Cobalt that is modified?....NO
Is it a full built race car?....YES
Can the average person have a car like that?....YES, if they want to spend $100,000+ on a Cobalt....I'll take a Lingenfelter Z06....Thanks
Matt[/QUOTE]
From what I recall reading they spent nowhere near that much. They did have the benifit of a great driver, lots of tires...but the car is not out of reach for any of the big shops that brought cars. The fact is that they know how to build a proper race car and set it as a balanced fast car. Most tuner shops go for power then throw on whatever high end JDM bling they can find. Maybe if some shops bring their A-game next time things will be different. That Cobalt was only around 300hp as well.
Is this a Cobalt that is modified?....NO
Is it a full built race car?....YES
Can the average person have a car like that?....YES, if they want to spend $100,000+ on a Cobalt....I'll take a Lingenfelter Z06....Thanks
Matt[/QUOTE]
From what I recall reading they spent nowhere near that much. They did have the benifit of a great driver, lots of tires...but the car is not out of reach for any of the big shops that brought cars. The fact is that they know how to build a proper race car and set it as a balanced fast car. Most tuner shops go for power then throw on whatever high end JDM bling they can find. Maybe if some shops bring their A-game next time things will be different. That Cobalt was only around 300hp as well.
| hanzo918 | 04-22-2006 05:36 PM |
Carbon fiber much?
| Ryokosman | 04-22-2006 05:40 PM |
They may not have $100,000 in parts. But look at the labor involved. They have a ENGINEERING TEAM... We're not talking about a group of friends and coworkers slaving away the nights at a go-faster shop. We're talking about GM! I'd say this car has well over $100k invested into it.
| MrHorspwer | 04-22-2006 05:46 PM |
The Cobalt raced at Willow Springs is NOT a $100,000 car. I'd be willing to bet that some of the higher zoot cars, like the Skylines, at the event cost more to prep. The car was built as a Grand Am Cup ST Class racer using a formula that is avaliable to anybody. Go download the Ecotec build book from GM's website, the basic build is there. They even give part numbers for many components! Here's a link [url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
The buildup on the Cobalt is on-par with just about any other vehicle racing competitvly in the ST Class. That's to say, while it may be more than bolt ons, you don't need a Prodrive budget. There's nothing unobtainium on the car; a competent race shop or fabricator could easily replicate everything.
Bottom line, the car is very well sorted. This should serve as an example that slapping the best and most expensive bolt on parts isn't what it's cracked up to be when you're getting serioous with competition. A well prepared FWD Cobalt beat "legendary" AWD and RWD Japanese supercars (I'm mainly referring to the Skylines that were in attendance) producing over twice the power and equipped with the absolute best aftermarket parts offered anywhere in the world. It's eye-opening when you look at the pedestal some people put these cars and parts suppliers on.
FWIW, rumor has it that this very Cobalt destroyed the lap times set by new Z06 Corvettes on GM's handling loop (the Lutzring) at their Milford Proving Grounds.
The buildup on the Cobalt is on-par with just about any other vehicle racing competitvly in the ST Class. That's to say, while it may be more than bolt ons, you don't need a Prodrive budget. There's nothing unobtainium on the car; a competent race shop or fabricator could easily replicate everything.
Bottom line, the car is very well sorted. This should serve as an example that slapping the best and most expensive bolt on parts isn't what it's cracked up to be when you're getting serioous with competition. A well prepared FWD Cobalt beat "legendary" AWD and RWD Japanese supercars (I'm mainly referring to the Skylines that were in attendance) producing over twice the power and equipped with the absolute best aftermarket parts offered anywhere in the world. It's eye-opening when you look at the pedestal some people put these cars and parts suppliers on.
FWIW, rumor has it that this very Cobalt destroyed the lap times set by new Z06 Corvettes on GM's handling loop (the Lutzring) at their Milford Proving Grounds.
| Lexington | 04-22-2006 06:01 PM |
If you add up the labor, parts, equipment, yadda yadda, I'd say that car had to have cost at LEAST 200k. One engineer on a DECENT salary per year is appx 80k. A good engineer on a good salary can be upwards of 150k per year..
Engineers cost more than people working free nights and weekends...
Engineers cost more than people working free nights and weekends...
| speedyHAM | 04-22-2006 06:09 PM |
+1 for that car costing over $150K when engineer salaries are concerned.
I'm just going to put out a guess, but I'd bet it only weighs around 2100 lbs in race trim with a full tank of gas. That right there would make it fly around a course.
I'm just going to put out a guess, but I'd bet it only weighs around 2100 lbs in race trim with a full tank of gas. That right there would make it fly around a course.
| PhilC | 04-22-2006 06:35 PM |
That car has about as much in common with the Grand Am Cobalt as it does with the Cobalt you can go to a dealer and buy. The Cobalt's a pretty good little econo-box and with the rebates you can get one cheaper than a 5 year old Civic but if you believe it's really a good platform to race with then I've got a bridge to sell you. Be interesting to see how far off of his T1 times Heinreicy was in that car on that track? I'm sure he's driven the T1 Vette there a few times and this thing has about the same or better power to weight as a Vette at this point.
| rkkwan | 04-22-2006 06:41 PM |
The question isn't how much GM spent in money and time to develop the car. The real question is - how much does a regular owner of the car need to spend to get that performance?
| skuttledude | 04-22-2006 07:13 PM |
Put whatever you want on a car....add a pro like John Heinricy behind the wheel and there's no doubt you'll have a car that finishes toward or at the top.
| Chiketkd | 04-22-2006 07:51 PM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers]Put whatever you want on a car....add a pro like John Heinricy behind the wheel and there's no doubt you'll have a car that finishes toward or at the top.[/QUOTE]
+1
Heinricy is one amazing driver!!!!! :devil:
+1
Heinricy is one amazing driver!!!!! :devil:
| PA04STI | 04-22-2006 09:43 PM |
[QUOTE=buster]From what I recall reading they spent nowhere near that much. They did have the benifit of a great driver, lots of tires...but the car is not out of reach for any of the big shops that brought cars. The fact is that they know how to build a proper race car and set it as a balanced fast car. Most tuner shops go for power then throw on whatever high end JDM bling they can find. Maybe if some shops bring their A-game next time things will be different. That Cobalt was only around 300hp as well.[/QUOTE]
But it's still a Cobalt. I couldn't get an SRT-4 which is much better then a Cobalt because it was a NEON!!!
But it's still a Cobalt. I couldn't get an SRT-4 which is much better then a Cobalt because it was a NEON!!!
| badboiWRX | 04-22-2006 09:51 PM |
Factory backing doesnt mean limitless funds and resources... there is a budget. So, I don't know what your point is. New tires every 3 runs? So, they barely had time to warm up and they were changed? I highly doubt this is true. If you think the evo didn't get a lot of R&D time, then you are truly mistaken... to run 55 seconds at Tsukuba is no freak accident. Also keep in mind the Cyber EVO wasnt driven by some random idiot, either.
2.5 seconds on a 2 minute track isnt impossible to make up, especially since we know that time isnt the fastest possible time. (there are cars that run similar times to the Cyber EVO) now if that time were set by the HKS EVO, then maybe you can say its untouchable. then again, a different track may require a different set-up. its all about set-up.
As for the engineering team... what is there to "engineer"? The tuning of the engine was done by Lotus. Many of the parts they used were from the GM parts bin. And If they needed engineers to do math to dial in suspension, i dont understand cuz all you need is a good driver to drive and give feedback. If you have a lap timer, you can see if the car and driver were indeed faster. Then make adjustments based on driver feedback and see if it goes faster, again. Man, a dedicated tuner cant do that! :rolleyes:
Is the Cobalt the ultimate time attack car? I'd say no... but they did damn good. Out of the box, it romps on the WRX on a track. All the mods are documented and can be replicated. The supercharger upgrade kit (running less boost) is available and so is the suspension... add some track grade tires and brake upgrades (pads, lines, fluid) and you will have a very fast track car.
2.5 seconds on a 2 minute track isnt impossible to make up, especially since we know that time isnt the fastest possible time. (there are cars that run similar times to the Cyber EVO) now if that time were set by the HKS EVO, then maybe you can say its untouchable. then again, a different track may require a different set-up. its all about set-up.
As for the engineering team... what is there to "engineer"? The tuning of the engine was done by Lotus. Many of the parts they used were from the GM parts bin. And If they needed engineers to do math to dial in suspension, i dont understand cuz all you need is a good driver to drive and give feedback. If you have a lap timer, you can see if the car and driver were indeed faster. Then make adjustments based on driver feedback and see if it goes faster, again. Man, a dedicated tuner cant do that! :rolleyes:
Is the Cobalt the ultimate time attack car? I'd say no... but they did damn good. Out of the box, it romps on the WRX on a track. All the mods are documented and can be replicated. The supercharger upgrade kit (running less boost) is available and so is the suspension... add some track grade tires and brake upgrades (pads, lines, fluid) and you will have a very fast track car.
| Scoobie Doogie | 04-23-2006 12:09 AM |
I believe the other time attack cars were out engineered and out driven. The other drivers were essentially nobodies relative to Heinricy (save Sheehan). Having "tuning" experince with an aftermarket tuner vs tuning experince with a factory race team is entirely different. The GM guys just plain knew what they were doing and had all of the best equipment available. Don't forget that their data runs long and deep relative to the newbies tuning the tuner cars. You can say they didn't spend 100k on the car but they certainly invested quite a bit more than that in human capital. IF and only IF the other tuners had the pracitcal sense that the GM engineers did, they would have won. The tuners don't have the vast amount of data that GM has especially condisering that they had important chassis data availalble to them as well. GM won fair and square. Great driver, great engineering. If the other teams had Nissan, Subaru and Mitsu engineers over here working with them they'd have done better.
Dave
P.S. And YES most "tuners" out there can't make the appropriate adjustments relative to what the driver tells them. Mainly because they don't have the experince and engineering manpower. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong though!
Dave
P.S. And YES most "tuners" out there can't make the appropriate adjustments relative to what the driver tells them. Mainly because they don't have the experince and engineering manpower. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong though!
| xknowonex | 04-23-2006 01:48 AM |
If GM is smart, they would use this for their marketing campaigns and it would work quite well.
| STi-MAN | 04-23-2006 07:41 AM |
[QUOTE=Scoobie Doogie]I believe the other time attack cars were out engineered and out driven. The other drivers were essentially nobodies relative to Heinricy. Having "tuning" experince with an aftermarket tuner vs tuning experince with a factory race team is entirely different. The GM guys just plain knew what they were doing and had all of the best equipment available. Don't forget that their data runs long and deep relative to the newbies tuning the tuner cars. You can say they didn't spend 100k on the car but they certainly invested quite a bit more than that in human capital. IF and only IF the other tuners had the pracitcal sense that the GM engineers did, they would have won. The tuners don't have the vast amount of data that GM has especially condisering that they had important chassis data availalble to them as well. GM won fair and square. Great driver, great engineering. If the other teams had Nissan, Subaru and Mitsu engineers over here working with them they'd have done better.
Dave
P.S. And YES most "tuners" out there can't make the appropriate adjustments relative to what the driver tells them. Mainly because they don't have the experince and engineering manpower. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong though![/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree with you fully.
Dave
P.S. And YES most "tuners" out there can't make the appropriate adjustments relative to what the driver tells them. Mainly because they don't have the experince and engineering manpower. I'd LOVE to be proven wrong though![/QUOTE]
I'd have to agree with you fully.
| hondahata | 04-23-2006 10:27 AM |
[QUOTE=MrHorspwer]The Cobalt raced at Willow Springs is NOT a $100,000 car. I'd be willing to bet that some of the higher zoot cars, like the Skylines, at the event cost more to prep. The car was built as a Grand Am Cup ST Class racer using a formula that is avaliable to anybody. Go download the Ecotec build book from GM's website, the basic build is there. They even give part numbers for many components! Here's a link [url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
The buildup on the Cobalt is on-par with just about any other vehicle racing competitvly in the ST Class. That's to say, while it may be more than bolt ons, you don't need a Prodrive budget. There's nothing unobtainium on the car; a competent race shop or fabricator could easily replicate everything.
Bottom line, the car is very well sorted. This should serve as an example that slapping the best and most expensive bolt on parts isn't what it's cracked up to be when you're getting serioous with competition. A well prepared FWD Cobalt beat "legendary" AWD and RWD Japanese supercars (I'm mainly referring to the Skylines that were in attendance) producing over twice the power and equipped with the absolute best aftermarket parts offered anywhere in the world. It's eye-opening when you look at the pedestal some people put these cars and parts suppliers on.
FWIW, rumor has it that this very Cobalt destroyed the lap times set by new Z06 Corvettes on GM's handling loop (the Lutzring) at their Milford Proving Grounds.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I have seen the vaunted GM Perfermance build book, and it does give some valuable info on what needs to be done to the Ecotec engine to reach outrageous numbers. But go to any Ecotec website and you will find that a great deal of it is based on the theory of what GM thinks the Ecotec "is" capable of. Its not like its the "Cobalt Time Attack" build book----frankly it is far from it. Its simply a horsepower vs. parts booklet when you get right down to it. Kinda like if I am going to the mailbox, my slippers will do; but if I am going jogging, I need to put on my New Balance. For me, it didn't amount to much more than that. The book is sectioned off pretty much by horsepower and says things that amount to >350 forged pistons, > 400 forged rods. Um....duh :rolleyes: And so then, where are all these 500hp Cobalts? I see, say,SRT4's and STi's everywhere. Reason....no tuning, which the GM product for the average consumer has always fell short. The parts are reasonable, way more so than an Subaru, but it still a cost factor for a build. But, there is hardly squat along the line of tuning software, most of which came out a month or two ago (HP Tuners) and the like. Now if you can tell me where I can find a cheap GM/Lotus trained engineer to help me with the electrical and tuning, I may still consider it. :D
The buildup on the Cobalt is on-par with just about any other vehicle racing competitvly in the ST Class. That's to say, while it may be more than bolt ons, you don't need a Prodrive budget. There's nothing unobtainium on the car; a competent race shop or fabricator could easily replicate everything.
Bottom line, the car is very well sorted. This should serve as an example that slapping the best and most expensive bolt on parts isn't what it's cracked up to be when you're getting serioous with competition. A well prepared FWD Cobalt beat "legendary" AWD and RWD Japanese supercars (I'm mainly referring to the Skylines that were in attendance) producing over twice the power and equipped with the absolute best aftermarket parts offered anywhere in the world. It's eye-opening when you look at the pedestal some people put these cars and parts suppliers on.
FWIW, rumor has it that this very Cobalt destroyed the lap times set by new Z06 Corvettes on GM's handling loop (the Lutzring) at their Milford Proving Grounds.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I have seen the vaunted GM Perfermance build book, and it does give some valuable info on what needs to be done to the Ecotec engine to reach outrageous numbers. But go to any Ecotec website and you will find that a great deal of it is based on the theory of what GM thinks the Ecotec "is" capable of. Its not like its the "Cobalt Time Attack" build book----frankly it is far from it. Its simply a horsepower vs. parts booklet when you get right down to it. Kinda like if I am going to the mailbox, my slippers will do; but if I am going jogging, I need to put on my New Balance. For me, it didn't amount to much more than that. The book is sectioned off pretty much by horsepower and says things that amount to >350 forged pistons, > 400 forged rods. Um....duh :rolleyes: And so then, where are all these 500hp Cobalts? I see, say,SRT4's and STi's everywhere. Reason....no tuning, which the GM product for the average consumer has always fell short. The parts are reasonable, way more so than an Subaru, but it still a cost factor for a build. But, there is hardly squat along the line of tuning software, most of which came out a month or two ago (HP Tuners) and the like. Now if you can tell me where I can find a cheap GM/Lotus trained engineer to help me with the electrical and tuning, I may still consider it. :D
| Splash | 04-23-2006 11:02 AM |
I saw a pretty well detailed write-up on that Cobalt... There's nothing in there that a non-GM corporate person could not do, except for ONE thing... They started with a body-in-white.
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
The rest of that time was a combination of knowing how to set it up, and how to drive it. I think both were QUITE covered...
Remember, those who think it was the setup are admitting that GM is a better tuner than just about anyone else...
Splash
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
The rest of that time was a combination of knowing how to set it up, and how to drive it. I think both were QUITE covered...
Remember, those who think it was the setup are admitting that GM is a better tuner than just about anyone else...
Splash
| greg donovan | 04-23-2006 11:07 AM |
[QUOTE=Lexington]If you add up the labor, parts, equipment, yadda yadda, I'd say that car had to have cost at LEAST 200k. One engineer on a DECENT salary per year is appx 80k. A good engineer on a good salary can be upwards of 150k per year..
Engineers cost more than people working free nights and weekends...[/QUOTE]
all the parts on all the other cars had to be engineered by someone at some point so you better figure the engineer salaries for those car values too.
Engineers cost more than people working free nights and weekends...[/QUOTE]
all the parts on all the other cars had to be engineered by someone at some point so you better figure the engineer salaries for those car values too.
| Chromer | 04-23-2006 11:51 AM |
[QUOTE=Splash]I saw a pretty well detailed write-up on that Cobalt... There's nothing in there that a non-GM corporate person could not do, except for ONE thing... They started with a body-in-white.
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
The rest of that time was a combination of knowing how to set it up, and how to drive it. I think both were QUITE covered...
Remember, those who think it was the setup are admitting that GM is a better tuner than just about anyone else...
Splash[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Is it so wrong to say "Good for GM Motorsports. They set a goal, developed a plan, and executed it better than anyone else?"
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
The rest of that time was a combination of knowing how to set it up, and how to drive it. I think both were QUITE covered...
Remember, those who think it was the setup are admitting that GM is a better tuner than just about anyone else...
Splash[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Is it so wrong to say "Good for GM Motorsports. They set a goal, developed a plan, and executed it better than anyone else?"
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.
| greg donovan | 04-23-2006 03:10 PM |
[QUOTE=Chromer]Exactly. Is it so wrong to say "Good for GM Motorsports. They set a goal, developed a plan, and executed it better than anyone else?"
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.[/QUOTE]
i would assume/hope so. ford sells mustangs that way so i would imagine GM wouldnt want to be left out of that party.
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.[/QUOTE]
i would assume/hope so. ford sells mustangs that way so i would imagine GM wouldnt want to be left out of that party.
| sumfoo1 | 04-23-2006 04:14 PM |
with 10 times the budget of all the other teams i'm sure its the best car.
i mean its factory backed they spend billions on development building show cars etc.
i mean its factory backed they spend billions on development building show cars etc.
| MrHorspwer | 04-23-2006 05:27 PM |
[QUOTE]Yeah, I have seen the vaunted GM Perfermance build book, and it does give some valuable info on what needs to be done to the Ecotec engine to reach outrageous numbers. But go to any Ecotec website and you will find that a great deal of it is based on the theory of what GM thinks the Ecotec "is" capable of. Its not like its the "Cobalt Time Attack" build book----frankly it is far from it. Its simply a horsepower vs. parts booklet when you get right down to it. Kinda like if I am going to the mailbox, my slippers will do; but if I am going jogging, I need to put on my New Balance. For me, it didn't amount to much more than that. The book is sectioned off pretty much by horsepower and says things that amount to >350 forged pistons, > 400 forged rods. Um....duh And so then, where are all these 500hp Cobalts? I see, say,SRT4's and STi's everywhere. Reason....no tuning, which the GM product for the average consumer has always fell short. The parts are reasonable, way more so than an Subaru, but it still a cost factor for a build. But, there is hardly squat along the line of tuning software, most of which came out a month or two ago (HP Tuners) and the like. Now if you can tell me where I can find a cheap GM/Lotus trained engineer to help me with the electrical and tuning, I may still consider it. [/QUOTE]
Before spouting anything else... click the link.
[url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
Genius :rolleyes:
Before spouting anything else... click the link.
[url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
Genius :rolleyes:
| GRM Tom | 04-23-2006 05:59 PM |
John Heinricy is no slouch as a driver, but I don't think it's fair to call him a "pro". Skills notwithstanding, he's already got a job.
He's the Director of GM Performance Division, which is a real job that takes up his time. It's not like he gets to spend all his waking hours on seat time.
:bowdown: to that man.
He's the Director of GM Performance Division, which is a real job that takes up his time. It's not like he gets to spend all his waking hours on seat time.
:bowdown: to that man.
| Splash | 04-23-2006 09:52 PM |
[QUOTE=Chromer]Exactly. Is it so wrong to say "Good for GM Motorsports. They set a goal, developed a plan, and executed it better than anyone else?"
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.[/QUOTE]
I suppose I should keep in mind that some of the JDM tuners might have "body-in-white" EVOs too... That would level the laying field - at least for the tuners... Not us.
Now if only GM could execute this well for their production vehicles...
FWIW - While I don't know for sure, I expect the motorsports division would sell Cobalt bodies-in-white to privateer teams.[/QUOTE]
I suppose I should keep in mind that some of the JDM tuners might have "body-in-white" EVOs too... That would level the laying field - at least for the tuners... Not us.
| Splash | 04-23-2006 09:55 PM |
Heinricy has multiple SCCA runoff championships in multiple classes. For time attack purposes, he'd rank awfully damn high on my short list of "ringer" drivers...
| zzyzx | 04-23-2006 10:03 PM |
[QUOTE=Itazura]John Heinricy is no slouch as a driver, but I don't think it's fair to call him a "pro". Skills notwithstanding, he's already got a job.
He's the Director of GM Performance Division, which is a real job that takes up his time. It's not like he gets to spend all his waking hours on seat time.
:bowdown: to that man.[/QUOTE]
Many multi-time SCCA Runoffs champs are not "pros" either. And I'd bet that any number of them could put all the "tuner" drivers to shame at these Time Attacks.
[quote=Splash]
I saw a pretty well detailed write-up on that Cobalt... There's nothing in there that a non-GM corporate person could not do, except for ONE thing... They started with a body-in-white.
[/quote]
I think this is a pretty pointless observation. Sure, there's nothing somebody else can't do - the point is that GM figured out exactly what needed to be done. The resources behind this effort are not those that any "tuner" would ever have access to.
Heinricy and GM's performance division are about the last things GM has going for it these days...
He's the Director of GM Performance Division, which is a real job that takes up his time. It's not like he gets to spend all his waking hours on seat time.
:bowdown: to that man.[/QUOTE]
Many multi-time SCCA Runoffs champs are not "pros" either. And I'd bet that any number of them could put all the "tuner" drivers to shame at these Time Attacks.
[quote=Splash]
I saw a pretty well detailed write-up on that Cobalt... There's nothing in there that a non-GM corporate person could not do, except for ONE thing... They started with a body-in-white.
[/quote]
I think this is a pretty pointless observation. Sure, there's nothing somebody else can't do - the point is that GM figured out exactly what needed to be done. The resources behind this effort are not those that any "tuner" would ever have access to.
Heinricy and GM's performance division are about the last things GM has going for it these days...
| trhoppe | 04-23-2006 10:50 PM |
Guys, what you don't understand is that Heinrocket could take pretty much anything and win those time trials. He is one of the better drivers in the US.
-Tom
-Tom
| WRXedUSA | 04-23-2006 10:52 PM |
[QUOTE=MrHorspwer]Before spouting anything else... click the link.
[url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
Genius :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Wow. After reading that PDF, I see there is not much production car left in the Grand Am car (ie modified rear susp geometry, FSB, etc.)
Zzyzx is right, bring a seasoned club racer and they would certainly be more than a match to these 'tuner drivers'.
[url]http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/downloads/cobalt_gmtunergrand_am_cup_accessories_composite_body_and_supplier_list.pdf[/url]
Genius :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Wow. After reading that PDF, I see there is not much production car left in the Grand Am car (ie modified rear susp geometry, FSB, etc.)
Zzyzx is right, bring a seasoned club racer and they would certainly be more than a match to these 'tuner drivers'.
| industrial | 04-24-2006 11:04 AM |
The guys that drove the other fast time attack cars are professional japanese drivers...
I think a big part of why this car did so well, aside from a pro driver and a team of engineers is the fact that GM rented the track the time trial was performed. They spent a day running around the track and tweaking the hell out of that cobalt. The driver for the GM team got to know the track and car very well. Alot of the other teams had the same driver using different cars.
I don't like the idea of OEMs getting involved in time attack events. If other OEMs decide to compete against GM the rules of time attack are so loose its just a matter of time before we DO see $200k+ cars in the competition.
I think a big part of why this car did so well, aside from a pro driver and a team of engineers is the fact that GM rented the track the time trial was performed. They spent a day running around the track and tweaking the hell out of that cobalt. The driver for the GM team got to know the track and car very well. Alot of the other teams had the same driver using different cars.
I don't like the idea of OEMs getting involved in time attack events. If other OEMs decide to compete against GM the rules of time attack are so loose its just a matter of time before we DO see $200k+ cars in the competition.
| culturedetox | 04-24-2006 11:16 AM |
give respect where respect is due. GM did a great job prepping a stock car for the race and using the best driver/team they can organize. even with the crappy power and inferior suspension. it sure did a good job of going around the track faster than anyone else.
imagine what nissan/toyota/DSM/Subaru could pull off with a fully prepped car. I hope this catches their attention.
This could be interesting.
-patrick
[size=1]very interesting indeed[/size]
imagine what nissan/toyota/DSM/Subaru could pull off with a fully prepped car. I hope this catches their attention.
This could be interesting.
-patrick
[size=1]very interesting indeed[/size]
| SlideWRX | 04-24-2006 01:15 PM |
[QUOTE=Splash]I saw a pretty well detailed write-up on that Cobalt... There's nothing in there that a non-GM corporate person could not do, except for ONE thing... They started with a body-in-white.
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
[/QUOTE]
Quoted for truth; The car they were running is fairly close to a production car.
As for other 'tuner' drivers, Gary Sheehan, who has been driving touring car championships for several years (and several in WRX's) usually runs the Element Tuning car; The Cobalt beat him, a seasoned touring car driver.
It isn't just the driver, and it isn't a tube chassis race car; the production cobalt can be setup to perform.
Tom
For those who may not know what that is, it's a production car, pulled from the line before any of the insulation/sound deadener gets applied. So, it was a ~100-150lbs lighter than a stripped Cobalt that you or I would get. Other than that, that whole list was simply parts anyone could add.
[/QUOTE]
Quoted for truth; The car they were running is fairly close to a production car.
As for other 'tuner' drivers, Gary Sheehan, who has been driving touring car championships for several years (and several in WRX's) usually runs the Element Tuning car; The Cobalt beat him, a seasoned touring car driver.
It isn't just the driver, and it isn't a tube chassis race car; the production cobalt can be setup to perform.
Tom
| pio!pio! | 04-24-2006 05:48 PM |
[QUOTE=industrial]If other OEMs decide to compete against GM the rules of time attack are so loose its just a matter of time before we DO see $200k+ cars in the competition.[/QUOTE]
I can't wait for that day!!! Imagine, with a loose set of rules, the amount of creative engineering that could go into the cars if all the OEMs decided to play..it would be awesome...
I can't wait for that day!!! Imagine, with a loose set of rules, the amount of creative engineering that could go into the cars if all the OEMs decided to play..it would be awesome...
| pio!pio! | 04-24-2006 05:49 PM |
Did the GM Cobalt run a data system? I think if any of the tuner teams just ran full data aquisition, and had a data analysis guy to analyze it and adjust the suspension and chassis...it would go a long way...
one day one of those Motec seminars will be full of tuner heads than race people :P
one day one of those Motec seminars will be full of tuner heads than race people :P
| Homemade WRX | 04-24-2006 11:08 PM |
it's called and engineering group with a fun goal...you should see all the project cars that the big three make every year...I had seen bit on TV about this car...the whole point of this car was to do time attack
| WRX-ECE | 04-25-2006 01:16 AM |
[QUOTE=badboiWRX]team... what is there to "engineer"? The tuning of the engine was done by Lotus. Many of the parts they used were from the GM parts bin. And If they needed engineers to do math to dial in suspension, i dont understand cuz all you need is a good driver to drive and give feedback. If you have a lap timer, you can see if the car and driver were indeed faster. Then make adjustments based on driver feedback and see if it goes faster, again. Man, a dedicated tuner cant do that! :rolleyes:[QUOTE]
wow, that must be why Lincoln Tech has so many people beating out MIT grads for jobs...
Engineering involves figuring out what works, not just trying some stuff and turning the knobs that are on the part you bought.
Your average Tuner: "try turning the damper knob the other way, that might make it stick better in that one turn"
Result: .25 sec improvement
GM Suspension Engineer: "If we can achieve X damping then the car can get Y more Gs through turn 7, we need to revalve the struts because they can't achieve that damping in stock form"
Result: A Cobalt being way faster then any of us would put money on it doing...
Oh, and using engineering salaries as a basis for what a company invests to use those people isn't the whole picture, my company accounts for our time at about $200/hr (which is not what I make).
PS - Having JH drive was probably a good bit of that outcome too.
wow, that must be why Lincoln Tech has so many people beating out MIT grads for jobs...
Engineering involves figuring out what works, not just trying some stuff and turning the knobs that are on the part you bought.
Your average Tuner: "try turning the damper knob the other way, that might make it stick better in that one turn"
Result: .25 sec improvement
GM Suspension Engineer: "If we can achieve X damping then the car can get Y more Gs through turn 7, we need to revalve the struts because they can't achieve that damping in stock form"
Result: A Cobalt being way faster then any of us would put money on it doing...
Oh, and using engineering salaries as a basis for what a company invests to use those people isn't the whole picture, my company accounts for our time at about $200/hr (which is not what I make).
PS - Having JH drive was probably a good bit of that outcome too.
| aschen | 04-25-2006 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE]Your average Tuner: "try turning the damper knob the other way, that might make it stick better in that one turn"
Result: .25 sec improvement
GM Suspension Engineer: "If we can achieve X damping then the car can get Y more Gs through turn 7, we need to revalve the struts because they can't achieve that damping in stock form"
Result: A Cobalt being way faster then any of us would put money on it doing...[/QUOTE]
Very well said. This is such an awsome example of the superiority of OEM or high resorse engineering. Imagine if the OEM guys could use there power for good insted of evil more oftem :)
Result: .25 sec improvement
GM Suspension Engineer: "If we can achieve X damping then the car can get Y more Gs through turn 7, we need to revalve the struts because they can't achieve that damping in stock form"
Result: A Cobalt being way faster then any of us would put money on it doing...[/QUOTE]
Very well said. This is such an awsome example of the superiority of OEM or high resorse engineering. Imagine if the OEM guys could use there power for good insted of evil more oftem :)
| kfoote | 04-25-2006 04:24 PM |
One of my proudest moments as a driver happened last August at an SCCA National at Pocono.
Due to no qualifying time, Heinrecy started behind me in a T1 Corvette while I was driving an SSB Miata. I had the best first 1/2 lap of my life, getting a great jump on the start, passing 3 cars in the process of avaoiding a wreck, picking up about 15 spots overall, and having Heinrecy follow me for the majority of the first 1/2 lap, which told me I must be doign something right.
The only person I can possibly think of that might be better than Heinrecy in a production based GM product is Ron Fellows.
I would like to see a comparison between that Cobalt and a full blown late 90's BTCC car.
Due to no qualifying time, Heinrecy started behind me in a T1 Corvette while I was driving an SSB Miata. I had the best first 1/2 lap of my life, getting a great jump on the start, passing 3 cars in the process of avaoiding a wreck, picking up about 15 spots overall, and having Heinrecy follow me for the majority of the first 1/2 lap, which told me I must be doign something right.
The only person I can possibly think of that might be better than Heinrecy in a production based GM product is Ron Fellows.
I would like to see a comparison between that Cobalt and a full blown late 90's BTCC car.
| trhoppe | 04-25-2006 10:00 PM |
Whats a resorse?
-Tom
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 04-25-2006 11:15 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Whats a resorse?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
[i]fires up buzzword generator[/i]
A recursive horsepower additive?
-Biggly
-Tom[/QUOTE]
[i]fires up buzzword generator[/i]
A recursive horsepower additive?
-Biggly
| Th3Franz | 04-25-2006 11:56 PM |
[QUOTE=speedyHAM]+1 for that car costing over $150K when engineer salaries are concerned.
I'm just going to put out a guess, but I'd bet it only weighs around 2100 lbs in race trim with a full tank of gas. That right there would make it fly around a course.[/QUOTE]
+12345
It could be about 1000 lbs less than some of the other cars. lol
I'm just going to put out a guess, but I'd bet it only weighs around 2100 lbs in race trim with a full tank of gas. That right there would make it fly around a course.[/QUOTE]
+12345
It could be about 1000 lbs less than some of the other cars. lol
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