| KC | 10-03-2005 09:48 AM |
Discussion about STU/STS2 2007 National Status
�
�
Go here: [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/156893/ShowPost.aspx[/url]
Good read and good info. Numbers need to go up for the class to survive.
--kC
Good read and good info. Numbers need to go up for the class to survive.
--kC
| rautox | 10-03-2005 10:50 AM |
Can't argue with the numbers. But, I'm glad Karen's post directly followed. There's plenty of undersubscription in places other than ST. Why not a harder look there as well?
Briefly, open up STS2 to the 2nd gen MR2's and bump off ES. Give all the ES'ers a place to play that's still cheap. Use the frickin' inclusion list and let another ES/CSP car play.
STU? Where are all the stevo's? :confused:
Briefly, open up STS2 to the 2nd gen MR2's and bump off ES. Give all the ES'ers a place to play that's still cheap. Use the frickin' inclusion list and let another ES/CSP car play.
STU? Where are all the stevo's? :confused:
| MrDestructo | 10-03-2005 11:04 AM |
[QUOTE=rautox]
STU? Where are all the stevo's? :confused:[/QUOTE]
I have a feeling they were in ESP. If the move to BSP happens, most of the will move to STU. You can bank on it.
Edit: I thinking that with so many new classes and overall participation probably staying flat, the limit for full national status needs to be lowered to 20 from 25.
Just a thought.
STU? Where are all the stevo's? :confused:[/QUOTE]
I have a feeling they were in ESP. If the move to BSP happens, most of the will move to STU. You can bank on it.
Edit: I thinking that with so many new classes and overall participation probably staying flat, the limit for full national status needs to be lowered to 20 from 25.
Just a thought.
| AtomicRacer | 10-03-2005 11:17 AM |
Considering some of the past requirements for other classes to get "national status" STU is getting screwed. 25 cars to be scored seperatly, 3 years before they make a decision. I think if someone on the SEB or STAC wanted to run the class it would be granted "national status" for next year.
Also, Andy mentioned that "That said, everyone knows that many of those entries were class stuffers, not regular entrants...". That is not really the case for STU, only one driver switched to help make the class this year that I know of. So that total was 26 drivers. We would have made it regardless.
-Paul
Also, Andy mentioned that "That said, everyone knows that many of those entries were class stuffers, not regular entrants...". That is not really the case for STU, only one driver switched to help make the class this year that I know of. So that total was 26 drivers. We would have made it regardless.
-Paul
| Got Pink? | 10-03-2005 11:31 AM |
I do think that it sucks to wait till 2007 for full national status but I think they are getting to the point that overall participation is barely strong enough to spread people out in so many classes. So they are being really hard on new classes to get solid participation to become real classes and I think that STU should be fine since we should be able to get more people to nationals now that there is a whole year to plan for it and more of the rally cars including mine will have to the time to get the car ready to go.
I plan on going to nationals next year for sure and have a co driver too. Also since there are lots of STU cars in the mid atlantic area we need a DC tour to show participation at tours and recruit more people for nationals through the tour.
Nate
I plan on going to nationals next year for sure and have a co driver too. Also since there are lots of STU cars in the mid atlantic area we need a DC tour to show participation at tours and recruit more people for nationals through the tour.
Nate
| Draken | 10-03-2005 12:59 PM |
I posted on sccaforums. Won't help any, but I tried. I'm just curious why the path for STU/STS2 is different than it was for STX. Why the extra year?
Chris H.
Chris H.
| KC | 10-03-2005 01:17 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]I posted on sccaforums. Won't help any, but I tried. I'm just curious why the path for STU/STS2 is different than it was for STX. Why the extra year?
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
When the class was announced, they also said in that fastrack it might be considered in 2007 for national status. 2007 has always been the target date.
--kC
Chris H.[/QUOTE]
When the class was announced, they also said in that fastrack it might be considered in 2007 for national status. 2007 has always been the target date.
--kC
| jcroy66 | 10-03-2005 01:30 PM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]I think that STU should be fine since we should be able to get more people to nationals now that there is a whole year to plan for it[/QUOTE]??? Say what? How is February 2004 --> September 2005 less than "a whole year to plan for it"??
| 10th Warrior | 10-03-2005 01:50 PM |
[quote]I have a feeling they were in ESP. If the move to BSP happens, most of the will move to STU. You can bank on it.[/quote]
maybe locally. no well-preped SP car can be easily made legal for ST. I suspect the ESP cars will go to BSP, or SM. I don't really see any of them going backwards.
maybe locally. no well-preped SP car can be easily made legal for ST. I suspect the ESP cars will go to BSP, or SM. I don't really see any of them going backwards.
| KC | 10-03-2005 01:58 PM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]maybe locally. no well-preped SP car can be easily made legal for ST. I suspect the ESP cars will go to BSP, or SM. I don't really see any of them going backwards.[/QUOTE]
There are many that ran ESP because it allowed some mods (popular ones for the street), and had an easier pax than AS. The move to BSP could change that and you might see an influx to STU... depending on how well BSP does in those local regions... and if the boost proposal for SP goes through.. Some might still stay in SP if the boost proposal does go through.
It was one thing locally to have a rally car in ESP with light mods winning the local scene... but it might be different with the BSP move.
If they want to play with boost a little... BSP
If they want to play with boost a lot... SM
If they don't want to play with boost at all... STU
--kC
There are many that ran ESP because it allowed some mods (popular ones for the street), and had an easier pax than AS. The move to BSP could change that and you might see an influx to STU... depending on how well BSP does in those local regions... and if the boost proposal for SP goes through.. Some might still stay in SP if the boost proposal does go through.
It was one thing locally to have a rally car in ESP with light mods winning the local scene... but it might be different with the BSP move.
If they want to play with boost a little... BSP
If they want to play with boost a lot... SM
If they don't want to play with boost at all... STU
--kC
| MrDestructo | 10-03-2005 02:10 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]
It was one thing locally to have a rally car in ESP with light mods winning the local scene... but it might be different with the BSP move.
--kC[/QUOTE]
All the ESP STIs in this region could easily be STU legal if they changed to a catted exhaust. In fact, most run our "Street Tire" class anyway.
It was one thing locally to have a rally car in ESP with light mods winning the local scene... but it might be different with the BSP move.
--kC[/QUOTE]
All the ESP STIs in this region could easily be STU legal if they changed to a catted exhaust. In fact, most run our "Street Tire" class anyway.
| 10th Warrior | 10-03-2005 03:54 PM |
like i said, locally. however, just like these people didn't run Nationals, or national events, in ESP, it would be folly to assume they'll do just that in STU. Not saying it won't happen, but I wouldn't bank on it.
| dwx | 10-03-2005 04:51 PM |
There were only a handfull of people that ran ESP nationally anyways. As long as they keep producing the EVO and STI, I think STU will survive. As for making a ESP car STU legal, I don't see the big deal. I don't see guys swapping LSDs and a clutch/flywheel is easily a one day job to put back to stock. It all depends what class you really want to run in.
| 10th Warrior | 10-03-2005 05:06 PM |
you need to look harder then, Phil ;)
| Templar | 10-03-2005 10:03 PM |
Karen Rocks!!!
I will admit that I have not been to nationals before, but it has always looked to me on a local and regional basis that some of the Prepared and Modified classes could probably be merged. To be honest, I don't think I have ever seen an A-prepared car at an event. However, in the SE I know that STU always has several cars and is very competitive.
At this years nationals STU barely made it's minimum of 25 entries, but can anyone who went to Topeka tell us if it was the smallest class? Were there other, already established classes with fewer cars? This might give a little more information to the rest of us who love the sport but haven't gone national yet.
I will admit that I have not been to nationals before, but it has always looked to me on a local and regional basis that some of the Prepared and Modified classes could probably be merged. To be honest, I don't think I have ever seen an A-prepared car at an event. However, in the SE I know that STU always has several cars and is very competitive.
At this years nationals STU barely made it's minimum of 25 entries, but can anyone who went to Topeka tell us if it was the smallest class? Were there other, already established classes with fewer cars? This might give a little more information to the rest of us who love the sport but haven't gone national yet.
| TheWRX | 10-03-2005 11:12 PM |
There were classes much smaller than 25 drivers. You can check out the results on scca.com. Yes, I believe AP was one of the small classes. But just because there are existing classes that are (too) small, that isn't really a good argument to introduce more classes. Quite to the contrary.
I agree with the earlier point that STU will get more participation from rally cars if/when the STi/Evo are moved to BSP. The cars that were all prepared for ESP might not be willing to downgrade. But there are probably plenty of people around who are on the fence, or haven't gone very far down the SP road. If the choice is between STU and BSP, I think STU will look a whole lot more attractive than if you make the call between STU and ESP.
I hope that STU will make it. It's a very attractive class with a lot of potential. But the outcome is independent of participation levels in some P/M classes.
I agree with the earlier point that STU will get more participation from rally cars if/when the STi/Evo are moved to BSP. The cars that were all prepared for ESP might not be willing to downgrade. But there are probably plenty of people around who are on the fence, or haven't gone very far down the SP road. If the choice is between STU and BSP, I think STU will look a whole lot more attractive than if you make the call between STU and ESP.
I hope that STU will make it. It's a very attractive class with a lot of potential. But the outcome is independent of participation levels in some P/M classes.
| z3coupe | 10-04-2005 04:28 AM |
It is also a sad shame that they only base it on how many come to just one special event - the National in Kansas. Here in SoCal we are starting to get quite a few in STU. And it keeps growing. But how many are willing to drive half a country over to run a few times? Sure, it IS the National finals, but its a long way to go, a ton of ga$ (specially the way the cost keeps getting higher now), hotel, other expenses, and what if something major breaks? Not to mention time away from work, the wife & kids, etc . . . . . . And if there is no way in hell that you think you could even win a trophy, that too would play as a factor for not going.
Now I could see it being based on the National Tour attendance because there are enough of them that it is close access to most everyone in their respective states.
Now I could see it being based on the National Tour attendance because there are enough of them that it is close access to most everyone in their respective states.
| KC | 10-04-2005 07:39 AM |
[QUOTE=z3coupe]It is also a sad shame that they only base it on how many come to just one special event - the National in Kansas.
Now I could see it being based on the National Tour attendance because there are enough of them that it is close access to most everyone in their respective states.[/QUOTE]
They don't base it just on Nationals in Topeka. The number for nationals (25) is ONLY to get their own run-group as a class.
They always have looked at participation at not only Tours, but Divisionals.
I agree with others... it all starts with getting the rules in the rulebook. No mention of them at all kind of put the thing on hold. (Even tho there were supplimental rules on the SCCA site... how to fnd them is anyones guess if you didn't already know that they existed through a forum link).
--kC
Now I could see it being based on the National Tour attendance because there are enough of them that it is close access to most everyone in their respective states.[/QUOTE]
They don't base it just on Nationals in Topeka. The number for nationals (25) is ONLY to get their own run-group as a class.
They always have looked at participation at not only Tours, but Divisionals.
I agree with others... it all starts with getting the rules in the rulebook. No mention of them at all kind of put the thing on hold. (Even tho there were supplimental rules on the SCCA site... how to fnd them is anyones guess if you didn't already know that they existed through a forum link).
--kC
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 08:09 AM |
[QUOTE=dwx]As for making a ESP car STU legal, I don't see the big deal.[/QUOTE]Phil, keep in mind that fender flaring is legal in ESP, but only fender ROLLING is allowed in STU.
| Templar | 10-04-2005 09:38 AM |
Actually my point above was not that low participation in other classes justifies new classes, but if people are always ranting about the "too many classes" mantra then it seems to me that the appropriate course of action would be to merge some of the similiar classes with lower participation. That is just my thought on the matter though.
| KC | 10-04-2005 09:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Templar]Actually my point above was not that low participation in other classes justifies new classes, but if people are always ranting about the "too many classes" mantra then it seems to me that the appropriate course of action would be to merge some of the similiar classes with lower participation. That is just my thought on the matter though.[/QUOTE]
And upset the old timer apple-cart? NEVER!
And upset the old timer apple-cart? NEVER!
| PhilC | 10-04-2005 09:58 AM |
[QUOTE=Templar]Actually my point above was not that low participation in other classes justifies new classes, but if people are always ranting about the "too many classes" mantra then it seems to me that the appropriate course of action would be to merge some of the similiar classes with lower participation. That is just my thought on the matter though.[/QUOTE]
But then you'd piss off the 9 people in the country who actually own BP cars since they'd be lumped in with the 6 people who actually own AP cars. :lol:
But then you'd piss off the 9 people in the country who actually own BP cars since they'd be lumped in with the 6 people who actually own AP cars. :lol:
| rautox | 10-04-2005 10:10 AM |
but the new AP will change all of that....
*snork*
*snork*
| thrdeye | 10-04-2005 10:13 AM |
I am a conspiracy theorist, I have to admit....so keep this in mind as you read my post....
STU, being a street tire class, does not help tirerack (the sponsor) sell very many 710's, A3s05's, etc. As a matter of fact, they don't even sell Falkens or Kooks, which are stansard issue for most ST cars. They only sell a couple of tires (off the top of my head) that work well in ST - Kumho MX's and the uber $$$ Advan....
STU, being a street tire class, does not help tirerack (the sponsor) sell very many 710's, A3s05's, etc. As a matter of fact, they don't even sell Falkens or Kooks, which are stansard issue for most ST cars. They only sell a couple of tires (off the top of my head) that work well in ST - Kumho MX's and the uber $$$ Advan....
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 10:26 AM |
^^ Oh pullease. Yeah, that's it. :rolleyes:
| TheWRX | 10-04-2005 10:29 AM |
[QUOTE=Templar]but if people are always ranting about the "too many classes" mantra then it seems to me that the appropriate course of action would be to merge some of the similiar classes with lower participation.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree with that. When I see how few people run in some of the P and M classes, I always wonder if we really need this many. But I view that as an entirely different topic. And mixing up different topics in the same discussion is mostly counterproductive.
If you guys want STU as a full class, you need to keep showing up at events, in even larger numbers than this year. That's going to help much more than posting on message boards. Nationals was a great start, and there's nothing that will help more than continued strong participation at Divisionals, Tours, Pros, and Nationals. I think that was Andy Hollis' initial point.
The timetable to (hopefully) becoming a full class was clearly layed out from the start, so discussing that is probably moot.
Forgetting the classes in the rulebook... I seriously don't understand how that could happen. Is anybody looking through the content before it goes to the printer? :alien:
I completely agree with that. When I see how few people run in some of the P and M classes, I always wonder if we really need this many. But I view that as an entirely different topic. And mixing up different topics in the same discussion is mostly counterproductive.
If you guys want STU as a full class, you need to keep showing up at events, in even larger numbers than this year. That's going to help much more than posting on message boards. Nationals was a great start, and there's nothing that will help more than continued strong participation at Divisionals, Tours, Pros, and Nationals. I think that was Andy Hollis' initial point.
The timetable to (hopefully) becoming a full class was clearly layed out from the start, so discussing that is probably moot.
Forgetting the classes in the rulebook... I seriously don't understand how that could happen. Is anybody looking through the content before it goes to the printer? :alien:
| thrdeye | 10-04-2005 10:32 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]^^ Oh pullease. Yeah, that's it. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Whatever, dude.
It seems that there's a chicken or egg thing going on. Lots of people interested in running STU, but don't want to commit unless it becomes a full class.
Whatever, dude.
It seems that there's a chicken or egg thing going on. Lots of people interested in running STU, but don't want to commit unless it becomes a full class.
| KC | 10-04-2005 10:50 AM |
[QUOTE=thrdeye]Whatever, dude.
It seems that there's a chicken or egg thing going on. Lots of people interested in running STU, but don't want to commit unless it becomes a full class.[/QUOTE]
Like me. (And Jen's not a 'dude'.) :lol:
It seems that there's a chicken or egg thing going on. Lots of people interested in running STU, but don't want to commit unless it becomes a full class.[/QUOTE]
Like me. (And Jen's not a 'dude'.) :lol:
| Templar | 10-04-2005 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=thrdeye]I am a conspiracy theorist, I have to admit....so keep this in mind as you read my post....
STU, being a street tire class, does not help tirerack (the sponsor) sell very many 710's, A3s05's, etc. As a matter of fact, they don't even sell Falkens or Kooks, which are stansard issue for most ST cars. They only sell a couple of tires (off the top of my head) that work well in ST - Kumho MX's and the uber $$$ Advan....[/QUOTE]
Well, you must also remember that tire rack does not sell the full slicks that are used in prepared and modified classes.
STU, being a street tire class, does not help tirerack (the sponsor) sell very many 710's, A3s05's, etc. As a matter of fact, they don't even sell Falkens or Kooks, which are stansard issue for most ST cars. They only sell a couple of tires (off the top of my head) that work well in ST - Kumho MX's and the uber $$$ Advan....[/QUOTE]
Well, you must also remember that tire rack does not sell the full slicks that are used in prepared and modified classes.
| TheWRX | 10-04-2005 11:37 AM |
[QUOTE=KC](And Jen's not a 'dude'.) :lol:[/QUOTE]
Thanks, now I can't get a certain Aerosmith song out of my head... :furious: ;)
Thanks, now I can't get a certain Aerosmith song out of my head... :furious: ;)
| thrdeye | 10-04-2005 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE=Templar]Well, you must also remember that tire rack does not sell the full slicks that are used in prepared and modified classes.[/QUOTE]
Which, according to what you said above, only have like 5 people running anyway. :p
Which, according to what you said above, only have like 5 people running anyway. :p
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 11:47 AM |
thrdeye, your "conspiracy theory" is dumb. It just is. SCCA is not ruled by its sponsors. "SCCA" does not favor some classes over others. All the SEB wants is to ensure that the classes really [u]do[/u] have the numbers to sustain the class not just for one year or 3 years, but for quite a while. If you needed more convincing, I was going to point out about the slicks in prepared, but I see Templar has already done that. :lol:
Your chicken and egg scenario is part of the point, I think - if STU doesn't have enough people who really BELIEVE in the concept that they're willing to commit even though it ISN'T a full class, then maybe it shouldn't be one. SCCA wants to see commitment. It wants to see that the concept is solid. That STU isn't going to turn into yet another undersubscribed class that has very little attendance, but cannot be removed or merged without great difficulty due to the very vocal minority that DO run it and DO have a lot of money tied up in their cars. To be clear, no, I'm not referring to the current state of STU with that last statement, I'm referring to other current undersubscribed classes. But given that it has already happened in OTHER categories too, it can certainly happen in ST too. Heck, look at the drop-off already in STX, in just one year!
The SCCA just wants to make sure that they aren't adding a new class unless it actually has the grassroots support. Why is that so hard to understand??
I mean, LOOK. Look at the numbers! (For Tours, I incorporated ladies numbers in with the open class. For Pros, L1 and L2 entrants are not included as it's extra work I don't feel like doing, since with the Pro Index, it's unlikely any STU/STS2 ladies competed in L1/L2)
[u]National Tours:[/u]
2005 El Paso Tour, 1 STU, 4 STS2
2005 San Diego Tour, 12 STU, 3 STS2
2005 Walnut Ridge Tour, 7 STU, 9 STS2
2005 Houston Tour, 5 STU, 4 STS2
2005 Atlanta Tour, 0 STU, 12 STS2
2005 Atwater Tour, 9 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Toledo Tour, 2 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Peru Tour, 5 STU, 12 STS2
2005 Devens Tour, 2 STU, 1 STS2
2005 Packwood Tour, 6 STU, 10 STS2
2005 Denver Tour, 9 STU, 6 STS2
[u]Pros:[/u]
2005 Fontana Pro, 6 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Atlanta Pro, 5 STU, 6 STS2
2005 Atwater Pro, 7 STU, 3 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 Wendover Pro, 6 STU, 2 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 Oscoda Pro, 2 STU (so bumped to BSP), 6 STS2
2005 Toledo Pro, 1 STU (so bumped to BSP), 3 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU, [b]6.5[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
Those numbers are not exactly overwhelming...
Your chicken and egg scenario is part of the point, I think - if STU doesn't have enough people who really BELIEVE in the concept that they're willing to commit even though it ISN'T a full class, then maybe it shouldn't be one. SCCA wants to see commitment. It wants to see that the concept is solid. That STU isn't going to turn into yet another undersubscribed class that has very little attendance, but cannot be removed or merged without great difficulty due to the very vocal minority that DO run it and DO have a lot of money tied up in their cars. To be clear, no, I'm not referring to the current state of STU with that last statement, I'm referring to other current undersubscribed classes. But given that it has already happened in OTHER categories too, it can certainly happen in ST too. Heck, look at the drop-off already in STX, in just one year!
The SCCA just wants to make sure that they aren't adding a new class unless it actually has the grassroots support. Why is that so hard to understand??
I mean, LOOK. Look at the numbers! (For Tours, I incorporated ladies numbers in with the open class. For Pros, L1 and L2 entrants are not included as it's extra work I don't feel like doing, since with the Pro Index, it's unlikely any STU/STS2 ladies competed in L1/L2)
[u]National Tours:[/u]
2005 El Paso Tour, 1 STU, 4 STS2
2005 San Diego Tour, 12 STU, 3 STS2
2005 Walnut Ridge Tour, 7 STU, 9 STS2
2005 Houston Tour, 5 STU, 4 STS2
2005 Atlanta Tour, 0 STU, 12 STS2
2005 Atwater Tour, 9 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Toledo Tour, 2 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Peru Tour, 5 STU, 12 STS2
2005 Devens Tour, 2 STU, 1 STS2
2005 Packwood Tour, 6 STU, 10 STS2
2005 Denver Tour, 9 STU, 6 STS2
[u]Pros:[/u]
2005 Fontana Pro, 6 STU, 5 STS2
2005 Atlanta Pro, 5 STU, 6 STS2
2005 Atwater Pro, 7 STU, 3 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 Wendover Pro, 6 STU, 2 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 Oscoda Pro, 2 STU (so bumped to BSP), 6 STS2
2005 Toledo Pro, 1 STU (so bumped to BSP), 3 STS2 (so bumped to STX)
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU, [b]6.5[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
Those numbers are not exactly overwhelming...
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 11:52 AM |
[QUOTE=thrdeye]Which, according to what you said above, only have like 5 people running anyway. :p[/QUOTE]
Exactly! So if (as according to your conspiracy theory), the SCCA were trying to kill any classes that don't sell TireRack tires, don't you think they'd be working like mad to kill off Prepared?? Instead, they've continued to allow the classes to exist (and in essentially the same 1970s format) because there is an existing VERY VOCAL base of competitors who do not want to be phased out. That's exactly the point. The SCCA would prefer to not have to protect 5-person classes simply because they already exist and already have competitors. They don't want to have to protect STU's 5 competitors and STS2's 5 competitors 10 years from now. Therefore, it's forcing STU and STS2 to prove it has a [u]consistent[/u] base of competitors before it allows those classes to have full National status.
Exactly! So if (as according to your conspiracy theory), the SCCA were trying to kill any classes that don't sell TireRack tires, don't you think they'd be working like mad to kill off Prepared?? Instead, they've continued to allow the classes to exist (and in essentially the same 1970s format) because there is an existing VERY VOCAL base of competitors who do not want to be phased out. That's exactly the point. The SCCA would prefer to not have to protect 5-person classes simply because they already exist and already have competitors. They don't want to have to protect STU's 5 competitors and STS2's 5 competitors 10 years from now. Therefore, it's forcing STU and STS2 to prove it has a [u]consistent[/u] base of competitors before it allows those classes to have full National status.
| thrdeye | 10-04-2005 12:19 PM |
Your opinion is your own, no problem with that, but I think it is silly not to have a class for certain PRODUCTION cars running street tires. Some people would like to know that they're not going to have to sell $3500 worth of STU suspension stuff at a loss (or spend a ton more to develop the car further) because they don't have a class to run in anymore.
Things are just happening backwards, it seems. The simple solution is to create STU as a full class for a trial period of three or so years. This would allow the class to gain support while allowing current STU drivers to feel that their class means something and is looked at seriously. If, after three years, the class does not have a following, yank it. Is it true that there are no published rules for STU and STS2?
edit: Is it really a big deal to give someone that wins a class and drives all the way to Kansas a jacket? I didn't realize they didn't get one.
BTW, If I were SCCA, I wouldn't have the heart to tell those 5 AP guys from 1970 to get teh hell out, either. I don't think there was a tirerack in 1970, either. That was before the internet.
Things are just happening backwards, it seems. The simple solution is to create STU as a full class for a trial period of three or so years. This would allow the class to gain support while allowing current STU drivers to feel that their class means something and is looked at seriously. If, after three years, the class does not have a following, yank it. Is it true that there are no published rules for STU and STS2?
edit: Is it really a big deal to give someone that wins a class and drives all the way to Kansas a jacket? I didn't realize they didn't get one.
BTW, If I were SCCA, I wouldn't have the heart to tell those 5 AP guys from 1970 to get teh hell out, either. I don't think there was a tirerack in 1970, either. That was before the internet.
| CamaroFS34 | 10-04-2005 12:23 PM |
Honestly, my point about class dilution was a bit more subtle than most anyone would catch.
The original idea that ST was a category for (excuse the language) ricers. Yes, it was. ST was created to try to attract that segment of car enthusiasts to autocross. When some people (not me) started crying about "yet another class", the response was that it "wouldn't dilute existing classes," but pull in new competitors.
Fast forward to today. Now, we are told that the intent is to be a stepping stone to street prepared. Sorry, that's BS. The [i]real[/i] problem is that SP is broke, has been broke for the 12+ years I've been autocrossing, and no one wants to do anything about it. So, we make ST into the "new" SP, dilute the competition in the other classes, and call it a day. And virtually no new competitors have come to Nationals [i]just[/i] as ST category competitors. :p
Since I've started autocrossing, 8 additional classes exist : F125, FSP, STS, STX, STU, STS2, SM and SM2. STR didn't make it. FP went away for a while, and then came back. If you look at the numbers in STS and STX, the category concept is very popular. The cars are relatively inexpensive (especially in STS), and the "required" modifications are relatively cheap, compared to SP. But, those modifications have somehow ended up [i]not[/i] being the ones on the cars that SCCA originally said they were trying to attract. So, we end up here, with numbers in other classes falling as competitors shift to a more economical class, and the SEB member with the most sordid history of them all calling STU and STS2 out for "class fillers" and barely meeting the numbers at Nationals, when [i]all[/i] class numbers are down, and more classes than ever (especially in the P and M categories) are hovering around that minimum range.
The class minimums need to be dropped, maybe to 18-20 entries (closer to the minimums to keep a class, but maybe not [i]to[/i] the minimums). The SCCA needs to publish rule sets in a timely fashion -- who remembers the Atlanta ProSolo in 2004, when Kiko shows up in the STU car, and everyone was like, "What is STU??" Maybe there is a conspiracy of sorts, when SCCA officials chastise these classes for not making the numbers in 2004, despite knowing people make their car decisions [i]before[/i] the season starts. The SCCA needs to have some people who care about the competitors as a whole in charge (SEB, ACs, BOD, etc.) instead of selfish pricks on these boards and committees who are there for their own agendas and nothing else.
Karen
The original idea that ST was a category for (excuse the language) ricers. Yes, it was. ST was created to try to attract that segment of car enthusiasts to autocross. When some people (not me) started crying about "yet another class", the response was that it "wouldn't dilute existing classes," but pull in new competitors.
Fast forward to today. Now, we are told that the intent is to be a stepping stone to street prepared. Sorry, that's BS. The [i]real[/i] problem is that SP is broke, has been broke for the 12+ years I've been autocrossing, and no one wants to do anything about it. So, we make ST into the "new" SP, dilute the competition in the other classes, and call it a day. And virtually no new competitors have come to Nationals [i]just[/i] as ST category competitors. :p
Since I've started autocrossing, 8 additional classes exist : F125, FSP, STS, STX, STU, STS2, SM and SM2. STR didn't make it. FP went away for a while, and then came back. If you look at the numbers in STS and STX, the category concept is very popular. The cars are relatively inexpensive (especially in STS), and the "required" modifications are relatively cheap, compared to SP. But, those modifications have somehow ended up [i]not[/i] being the ones on the cars that SCCA originally said they were trying to attract. So, we end up here, with numbers in other classes falling as competitors shift to a more economical class, and the SEB member with the most sordid history of them all calling STU and STS2 out for "class fillers" and barely meeting the numbers at Nationals, when [i]all[/i] class numbers are down, and more classes than ever (especially in the P and M categories) are hovering around that minimum range.
The class minimums need to be dropped, maybe to 18-20 entries (closer to the minimums to keep a class, but maybe not [i]to[/i] the minimums). The SCCA needs to publish rule sets in a timely fashion -- who remembers the Atlanta ProSolo in 2004, when Kiko shows up in the STU car, and everyone was like, "What is STU??" Maybe there is a conspiracy of sorts, when SCCA officials chastise these classes for not making the numbers in 2004, despite knowing people make their car decisions [i]before[/i] the season starts. The SCCA needs to have some people who care about the competitors as a whole in charge (SEB, ACs, BOD, etc.) instead of selfish pricks on these boards and committees who are there for their own agendas and nothing else.
Karen
| AtomicRacer | 10-04-2005 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
[u]National Tours:[/u]
2005 El Paso Tour, [B]1[/B] STU, 0 STS2
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.2[/b] STU, [b]5.8[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
Those numbers are not exactly overwhelming...[/QUOTE]
Missed one Jen, El Paso had 1 STU. =)
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU now!!!! (thanks to rounding)
-Paul
[u]National Tours:[/u]
2005 El Paso Tour, [B]1[/B] STU, 0 STS2
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.2[/b] STU, [b]5.8[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
Those numbers are not exactly overwhelming...[/QUOTE]
Missed one Jen, El Paso had 1 STU. =)
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU now!!!! (thanks to rounding)
-Paul
| AtomicRacer | 10-04-2005 02:25 PM |
Karen! Can I get a Hallelujah!
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 02:28 PM |
D'oh! Paul, you are so right! I didn't realize that SCCA changed not only the names of the classes, but their position in the results as well. At El Paso, STU was listed amongst the SM results and STS2 was at the very end with Formula Junior. In addition to the El Paso STU entries, I found entries for STS2 for El Paso and for San Diego, so I updated those numbers as well.
The revised summaries come to:
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU, [b]6.5[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
The revised summaries come to:
2005 average Tour attendance: [b]5.3[/b] STU, [b]6.5[/b] STS2
2005 average Pro attendance: [b]4.5[/b] STU, [b]4.2[/b] STS2
| typer_801 | 10-04-2005 04:13 PM |
I'll respectfully disagree that ST has solely become a stepping stone and is just diluting other classes. I'll agree it's not quite targeted at who it originally was but believe it's purpose has evolved as the classes have matured.[INDENT]1) STS was originally developed an entry point for car enthusiast previously restricted by allowable modifications and requirement to run R-compound tires and abandoned from the original "Street" Prepared concept. Street Touring was a rebirth of was SP originally was, a recruitment tool which more closely mirrored what modifications car owners were commonly performing on street driven vehicles. That's still true today and ST is now available to even more participants with the addition of the STS-2 and STU classes, in other words, we're reaching out to more folks at the local level by expanding the concept.[/INDENT][INDENT]And 2) Provide a slot (in the SEB's vision) of a stepping stone from Stock to SP. I didn't believe the class progression would work this way initially, but in talking with more and more competitors, I now believe this is really happening.[/INDENT]
In the more mature classes (i.e. STS), there may be some dilution occuring when established competitors come over from other existing classes, but in the cases of the newer classes, especially the supplemental classes, I believe we see the most growth from new participants. I'll also add we do see strong regional numbers in STS with good diversity in car types across the country and to a lesser extent in STX, but still looking good. We've been looking at STS-2 and STU as well at the local level (in addition to Nationally) and see pockets of success as well, which leaves us optimistic it may take off on a larger level. 2005 Nats and the late rush and eventual hitting of the 25 entrant targets was a great sign in my eyes there is enough committment out there to make these classes permanent additions.
I'm not even sure how to respond to the "self-serving bunch of pricks" on the AC's, SEB, etc other than to say it's completely untruthful to broadly characterize the whole group in such a derogatory manner when in reality, there are probably only a few bad apples (and I'm personally not aware of any).
-Jeff
In the more mature classes (i.e. STS), there may be some dilution occuring when established competitors come over from other existing classes, but in the cases of the newer classes, especially the supplemental classes, I believe we see the most growth from new participants. I'll also add we do see strong regional numbers in STS with good diversity in car types across the country and to a lesser extent in STX, but still looking good. We've been looking at STS-2 and STU as well at the local level (in addition to Nationally) and see pockets of success as well, which leaves us optimistic it may take off on a larger level. 2005 Nats and the late rush and eventual hitting of the 25 entrant targets was a great sign in my eyes there is enough committment out there to make these classes permanent additions.
I'm not even sure how to respond to the "self-serving bunch of pricks" on the AC's, SEB, etc other than to say it's completely untruthful to broadly characterize the whole group in such a derogatory manner when in reality, there are probably only a few bad apples (and I'm personally not aware of any).
-Jeff
| z3coupe | 10-04-2005 04:37 PM |
[QUOTE]The SCCA needs to publish rule sets in a timely fashion -- who remembers the Atlanta ProSolo in 2004, when Kiko shows up in the STU car, and everyone was like, "What is STU??" [/QUOTE]LOL! I remember when I showed up down in San Diego and they said the same thing about STX when it first started. I think I ended up running in a class with a ton of Miatas that creamed my WRX. And in thinking about that - it is the same for STU/STS2. If it is not made an official National Class, some clubs will use their allowed own judgement, and place the ST cars into one of their own home made classes (as an example, SD put me into IS2 or IS3) - which could also hurt attendance numbers because STU or STS2 cars would then not be listed as such.
And I fully agree, if the class, and a set of rules in writting, is not in the official SCCA rule book, there is chaos. Who knows what is legal on their car, or what to prepare for? That can turn off a lot, or turn away even more. Now here in SoCal (Cal Club), we have a pretty decent showing in STU and STS2, but now I problem has become how to handle 300+ entrants! During winter time, we even have to limit the non members entries so that we are not racing into the night. And the biggest classes? ST of all sorts.
And I fully agree, if the class, and a set of rules in writting, is not in the official SCCA rule book, there is chaos. Who knows what is legal on their car, or what to prepare for? That can turn off a lot, or turn away even more. Now here in SoCal (Cal Club), we have a pretty decent showing in STU and STS2, but now I problem has become how to handle 300+ entrants! During winter time, we even have to limit the non members entries so that we are not racing into the night. And the biggest classes? ST of all sorts.
| jcroy66 | 10-04-2005 05:00 PM |
I think Karen's point was that STU was only created as a class (or at least e-published as a class) on Thursday, with the 2004 Atlanta Pro beginning the next day. IIRC.
Edit: just did a quick search. Looks like it was [u]Tuesday[/u], not [u]Thursday[/u]. I was close. ;) [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500632"]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500632[/url]
Edit: just did a quick search. Looks like it was [u]Tuesday[/u], not [u]Thursday[/u]. I was close. ;) [url="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500632"]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=500632[/url]
| TheWRX | 10-04-2005 05:07 PM |
That sounds about right. I remember seeing rumors (or at least it sounded like rumors to me) about a new class called STU on this board a few days before the event. I thought that there was no way a class would get introduced this quickly, with the national season about to start, especially without any advance proposals and decisions being published. Next thing I know, Kiko runs around on Saturday morning at the Atlanta Pro, and tries to talk people into running STU. I denied, mainly because I wanted to collect season points in STX.
| CamaroFS34 | 10-04-2005 08:17 PM |
[QUOTE=typer_801]In the more mature classes (i.e. STS), there may be some dilution occuring when established competitors come over from other existing classes, but in the cases of the newer classes, especially the supplemental classes, I believe we see the most growth from new participants. [/quote]
You tell me that the most growth is from new participants at a National level, and I'll point out all of the folks who've abandoned "established" classes for ST. Look at the trophy winners, and you'll see [i]quite[/i] familiar names from S, SP, and even P and M.
My point wasn't so much that ST is causing class dilution. It's that when you add so many new classes that don't necessarily translate into more overall participants at the competition levels that determine the life or death of the class, you are going to have a harder and harder time making an artificially high number. Don't berate people who are already supporting SCCA Solo2 by telling them that STU is going to go away because numbers aren't being met. If ST (in general) is (was?) supposed to be drawing new people to the sport, then how is berating those who [i]are[/i] showing up suppporting the class?
[quote]I'm not even sure how to respond to the "self-serving bunch of pricks" on the AC's, SEB, etc other than to say it's completely untruthful to broadly characterize the whole group in such a derogatory manner when in reality, there are probably only a few bad apples (and I'm personally not aware of any).[/quote]
I'm not going to go into specifics, Jeff, and several of them have already moved on, but when the entire STAC is composed of people who are Honda drivers, many of whom are avowed anti-AWD people, it's hard to say that the Subarus were given a fair shake. I know plenty of people here (including myself) who were happy that the SEB saw some common sense and left the Impreza RS in STS... but those same people (myself included) were very angry and frustrated at the fact that certain STAC members kept pushing that agenda because they felt [i]their own cars couldn't compete against the Subarus[/i] (as they vocalized on many occasions), even though the [i]type[/i] of car they were driving was winning the class more often than not. I'm not even going touch the fact that while the SEB made light of the fact that as soon as the new SEDiv SEB rep hit the board, he proposed a move for his own car from DSP to FSP, and while they joked about it at the Kumho Kapers, it really is not "cool" to appear to be submitting your application to a board just for your own personal agenda. I'm not going to name names, publicly, Jeff. But, it's more than just one or two "bad apples" unfortunately, but to be fair, you're right in that many of those who are on the committees aren't like that. But, when there are personal agendas to take into consideration, it makes it much more difficult to get things done through the normal channels because those people are going to be influential and persuasive in getting their points across, moreso than letters and emails sent to the various committees. :(
Karen
You tell me that the most growth is from new participants at a National level, and I'll point out all of the folks who've abandoned "established" classes for ST. Look at the trophy winners, and you'll see [i]quite[/i] familiar names from S, SP, and even P and M.
My point wasn't so much that ST is causing class dilution. It's that when you add so many new classes that don't necessarily translate into more overall participants at the competition levels that determine the life or death of the class, you are going to have a harder and harder time making an artificially high number. Don't berate people who are already supporting SCCA Solo2 by telling them that STU is going to go away because numbers aren't being met. If ST (in general) is (was?) supposed to be drawing new people to the sport, then how is berating those who [i]are[/i] showing up suppporting the class?
[quote]I'm not even sure how to respond to the "self-serving bunch of pricks" on the AC's, SEB, etc other than to say it's completely untruthful to broadly characterize the whole group in such a derogatory manner when in reality, there are probably only a few bad apples (and I'm personally not aware of any).[/quote]
I'm not going to go into specifics, Jeff, and several of them have already moved on, but when the entire STAC is composed of people who are Honda drivers, many of whom are avowed anti-AWD people, it's hard to say that the Subarus were given a fair shake. I know plenty of people here (including myself) who were happy that the SEB saw some common sense and left the Impreza RS in STS... but those same people (myself included) were very angry and frustrated at the fact that certain STAC members kept pushing that agenda because they felt [i]their own cars couldn't compete against the Subarus[/i] (as they vocalized on many occasions), even though the [i]type[/i] of car they were driving was winning the class more often than not. I'm not even going touch the fact that while the SEB made light of the fact that as soon as the new SEDiv SEB rep hit the board, he proposed a move for his own car from DSP to FSP, and while they joked about it at the Kumho Kapers, it really is not "cool" to appear to be submitting your application to a board just for your own personal agenda. I'm not going to name names, publicly, Jeff. But, it's more than just one or two "bad apples" unfortunately, but to be fair, you're right in that many of those who are on the committees aren't like that. But, when there are personal agendas to take into consideration, it makes it much more difficult to get things done through the normal channels because those people are going to be influential and persuasive in getting their points across, moreso than letters and emails sent to the various committees. :(
Karen
| jamesohoh7 | 10-04-2005 08:22 PM |
I'm a relative n00b to all this, but just a quick question: how much money does it cost to create/administer/otherwise-attend-to a given national class ... out of the SCCA's coffers, I mean? Are we talking just the ink and paper to print the rules on? The time spent to prepare (copy/paste/ammend?) the rules?
| z3coupe | 10-04-2005 09:56 PM |
[QUOTE]but when the entire STAC is composed of people who are Honda drivers, many of whom are avowed anti-AWD people,[/QUOTE]And to think some wonder why I HATE Hondas????[QUOTE]that certain STAC members kept pushing that agenda because they felt their own cars couldn't compete against the Subarus (as they vocalized on many occasions), even though the type of car they were driving was winning the class more often than not.[/QUOTE]Yes, all I ever see is Honda this and Honda that. Or when they wanted to go crazy with the update/backdate rules to create the FrankenHonda, UGH!!!!!!!!!!! :furious: If they keep going pro Honda, how can a heavy 4 door car (even if AWD and FI) compete agaist a light weight tin can if all the rules are in its favor?
[QUOTE]as soon as the new SEDiv SEB rep hit the board, he proposed a move for his own car from DSP to FSP, and while they joked about it at the Kumho Kapers, it really is not "cool" to appear to be submitting your application to a board just for your own personal agenda.[/QUOTE]What ever happend to "in the spirit of the sport"? How about the SEB and STAC start doing things in the SPIRIT OF ST? Help it to GROW, not choke it and turn it into Spec Honda!!!!!!! :disco:
[QUOTE]as soon as the new SEDiv SEB rep hit the board, he proposed a move for his own car from DSP to FSP, and while they joked about it at the Kumho Kapers, it really is not "cool" to appear to be submitting your application to a board just for your own personal agenda.[/QUOTE]What ever happend to "in the spirit of the sport"? How about the SEB and STAC start doing things in the SPIRIT OF ST? Help it to GROW, not choke it and turn it into Spec Honda!!!!!!! :disco:
| flyboymike | 10-05-2005 09:27 AM |
St
�
�
I know I'm one of the autocross newbs that the SCCA was trying to attract with the Street Touring classes. I doubt I'll get a chance to go to Topeka, but I might get to a national tour event sometime. I got the WRX partially because I knew it could be a competitive autocross car in STX. I love the concept of Street Touring: put relatively simple bolt-on modifications onto the car, good street tires (not in that order, obviously), arrive and drive.
However, to be truly competitive, it doesn't quite work like that. At the Subaru Challenge this year, I was explaining to one of my fellow competitors how I liked not having to buy r-comps for STX, and he replied in the long run it'd be cheaper to be in an r-compound class. A very competitive friend of his apparently had 9 extra sets of wheels so he could have street tires for every possible condition. I don't know if that's an extreme example, but what about all the guys who use spring rates that are so high they really can't daily drive their car anymore? Now we are getting into what always happens in racing: people who are looking for that competitive edge and don't mind preparing a car specifically for that purpose. I understand it's inevitable, but I don't think it's for me.
I like Street Touring because it gives me a place to turn my car into a great street car and still compete. I'll have my good daily driver qualities, something that's great fun on a twisty backroad, and capable of long road trips. Then, when Sunday rolls around and I find myself in a parking lot full of cones, I'll keep those same rims on my car, adjust the tire pressure, get my damper settings, and run. I might not win, but if I'm driving well, I'll be competitive. Street touring feels like the only place I can get that balance, and I can't help but feel that every effort should be made to maximize these classes so everyone can have an "arrive 'n drive" option. It definitely helped attract me to the sport.
However, to be truly competitive, it doesn't quite work like that. At the Subaru Challenge this year, I was explaining to one of my fellow competitors how I liked not having to buy r-comps for STX, and he replied in the long run it'd be cheaper to be in an r-compound class. A very competitive friend of his apparently had 9 extra sets of wheels so he could have street tires for every possible condition. I don't know if that's an extreme example, but what about all the guys who use spring rates that are so high they really can't daily drive their car anymore? Now we are getting into what always happens in racing: people who are looking for that competitive edge and don't mind preparing a car specifically for that purpose. I understand it's inevitable, but I don't think it's for me.
I like Street Touring because it gives me a place to turn my car into a great street car and still compete. I'll have my good daily driver qualities, something that's great fun on a twisty backroad, and capable of long road trips. Then, when Sunday rolls around and I find myself in a parking lot full of cones, I'll keep those same rims on my car, adjust the tire pressure, get my damper settings, and run. I might not win, but if I'm driving well, I'll be competitive. Street touring feels like the only place I can get that balance, and I can't help but feel that every effort should be made to maximize these classes so everyone can have an "arrive 'n drive" option. It definitely helped attract me to the sport.
| KC | 10-05-2005 09:52 AM |
Right on. In my case with the 8.. Rcompounds are over $1K a set. 3 sets a year... and it adds up for essentially throwing money away every year. $3k a year just in tires. After 3 years... I have nothing to show for it... just $9K in used tires.
If I went to STU... One or two sets of $700-800 tires a year, and a slew of parts that can be sold should I wish to revert the car back to stock... you can't sell used tires for even 50% of what they cost new.
So $1600/year for tires (275 streets aren't cheap either) but another $1400/year in mods. :) After two years, the car will have anything that can be done to it (shocks/springs/engine mgt/exhaust/seats) and it's just $1600/year for tires.
--kc
If I went to STU... One or two sets of $700-800 tires a year, and a slew of parts that can be sold should I wish to revert the car back to stock... you can't sell used tires for even 50% of what they cost new.
So $1600/year for tires (275 streets aren't cheap either) but another $1400/year in mods. :) After two years, the car will have anything that can be done to it (shocks/springs/engine mgt/exhaust/seats) and it's just $1600/year for tires.
--kc
| flyboymike | 10-05-2005 10:03 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Right on. In my case with the 8.. Rcompounds are over $1K a set. 3 sets a year... and it adds up for essentially throwing money away every year. $3k a year just in tires. After 3 years... I have nothing to show for it... just $9K in used tires.
If I went to STU... One or two sets of $700-800 tires a year, and a slew of parts that can be sold should I wish to revert the car back to stock... you can't sell used tires for even 50% of what they cost new.
So $1600/year for tires (275 streets aren't cheap either) but another $1400/year in mods. :) After two years, the car will have anything that can be done to it (shocks/springs/engine mgt/exhaust/seats) and it's just $1600/year for tires.
--kc[/QUOTE]
18 inch wheels to properly skin.... ouch. There's a reason I intend to stay with 16's.
If I went to STU... One or two sets of $700-800 tires a year, and a slew of parts that can be sold should I wish to revert the car back to stock... you can't sell used tires for even 50% of what they cost new.
So $1600/year for tires (275 streets aren't cheap either) but another $1400/year in mods. :) After two years, the car will have anything that can be done to it (shocks/springs/engine mgt/exhaust/seats) and it's just $1600/year for tires.
--kc[/QUOTE]
18 inch wheels to properly skin.... ouch. There's a reason I intend to stay with 16's.
| jamesohoh7 | 10-05-2005 10:49 AM |
There ya go, flyboymike. I'm basically in the same boat as you appear to be.
I never even considered autox when I got my '04 WRX originally. I just throught it was a great car. I met some Suby folks, and they hounded me for a year to get out and autox it. I finally did, and I liked it. I was in DS and got beat by so many seconds you could time it with a calendar :lol:
-That- got old, real quick. 'Buy R-compounds!' I heard... well, as has been pointed out, that's prohibitively expensive when you're a noob and not entirely sure you -really- want to 'go for it'... and you're left only with dead tires to show for it later.
"Well, you're there to have fun, who cares if you are competitive!" ... bunk.
I hazard to say that anyone that really doesn't care -a least little- that they're constantly on the bottom of the list probably won't stick around very long and if they do, they're the exception, not the rule. If you don't care, what's keeping you there?... whim... not real interest. Whims are what they are.. they change. I would rather see people be at least a little dedicated to making improvements b/c they care that they're not finishing 'in the trophies'...be that by improving driving-skill (first and foremost of course) and/or bolt-ons: like it or not, it is quicker + easier to bolt-on speed than learn to drive better for the average guy.. not saying that's 'good', just pointing it out. Also, once you've invested in hard-parts, you're more apt to stick around I would be willing to bet.
My urge to be at least a little bit competitive pushed me towards ST. I'm hardly prepped to the limits, but at least I'm competitve now. I saw ST as a place I could be competitive sooner and not have to buy DOT-R's.
Just for more fuel on this: in my local region (Houston) we have a plethora of 'local ST' classes that are largely based on SP rules... think SP with 'real' street tires. I run in STE which is the analogue of ESP. I like it... and especially so since all the local hot-dogs moved to STX this past January :lol:
I'm left to duke it out with the guys I used to scrap with in the middle-to-bottom ranks. :D It's both -fun- and rewarding (I can occasionally win now!), and I'm still not spending huge $$. My STi is currently bone-stock outside of a set of Rotas + Hankooks + my old Borla cat-back from my WRX. There were like 9 entrants in this 'local ST' class this past Sunday... more, I think, than in STX and STU combined (or very close). Unfortunately, I heard that they're looking to do away with our local ST classes after this season. :( And I'm only left to guess as to why.. they still get good participation... I see many defections from the local entry-counts upcoming.
Now, the kicker: I'm considering moving to either ESP or STU next year... depending on what is done w/STi's. I think I can compete (for at least 2nd-5th and an outside chance at the occasional win) in ESP vs. the current crop in there locally (I have no illusions of being 'national-level')... but winning in STU is a pipe-dream b/c my buddy (Alex: 'afpdl' on here) is just 'da hammer' and I have zero hope of beating him... ever. I realize this. But, I will have even less hope in BSP, so if it comes to that, I accept my fate as perennial 'non-winner' in STU :lol: b/c I can -probably- compete better for the minor placings in STU vs. BSP... but that's b/c I won't prep my car to the level necessary to compete (which is totally 'my fault', I understand this).
whew.. o.k., sorry for the rambling... but I figure maybe another 'noob-digest' on how I got to where I am in autox might shed more insight into why ST classes are so appealing. I think they really do bring in the noobs... as designed.
I never even considered autox when I got my '04 WRX originally. I just throught it was a great car. I met some Suby folks, and they hounded me for a year to get out and autox it. I finally did, and I liked it. I was in DS and got beat by so many seconds you could time it with a calendar :lol:
-That- got old, real quick. 'Buy R-compounds!' I heard... well, as has been pointed out, that's prohibitively expensive when you're a noob and not entirely sure you -really- want to 'go for it'... and you're left only with dead tires to show for it later.
"Well, you're there to have fun, who cares if you are competitive!" ... bunk.
I hazard to say that anyone that really doesn't care -a least little- that they're constantly on the bottom of the list probably won't stick around very long and if they do, they're the exception, not the rule. If you don't care, what's keeping you there?... whim... not real interest. Whims are what they are.. they change. I would rather see people be at least a little dedicated to making improvements b/c they care that they're not finishing 'in the trophies'...be that by improving driving-skill (first and foremost of course) and/or bolt-ons: like it or not, it is quicker + easier to bolt-on speed than learn to drive better for the average guy.. not saying that's 'good', just pointing it out. Also, once you've invested in hard-parts, you're more apt to stick around I would be willing to bet.
My urge to be at least a little bit competitive pushed me towards ST. I'm hardly prepped to the limits, but at least I'm competitve now. I saw ST as a place I could be competitive sooner and not have to buy DOT-R's.
Just for more fuel on this: in my local region (Houston) we have a plethora of 'local ST' classes that are largely based on SP rules... think SP with 'real' street tires. I run in STE which is the analogue of ESP. I like it... and especially so since all the local hot-dogs moved to STX this past January :lol:
I'm left to duke it out with the guys I used to scrap with in the middle-to-bottom ranks. :D It's both -fun- and rewarding (I can occasionally win now!), and I'm still not spending huge $$. My STi is currently bone-stock outside of a set of Rotas + Hankooks + my old Borla cat-back from my WRX. There were like 9 entrants in this 'local ST' class this past Sunday... more, I think, than in STX and STU combined (or very close). Unfortunately, I heard that they're looking to do away with our local ST classes after this season. :( And I'm only left to guess as to why.. they still get good participation... I see many defections from the local entry-counts upcoming.
Now, the kicker: I'm considering moving to either ESP or STU next year... depending on what is done w/STi's. I think I can compete (for at least 2nd-5th and an outside chance at the occasional win) in ESP vs. the current crop in there locally (I have no illusions of being 'national-level')... but winning in STU is a pipe-dream b/c my buddy (Alex: 'afpdl' on here) is just 'da hammer' and I have zero hope of beating him... ever. I realize this. But, I will have even less hope in BSP, so if it comes to that, I accept my fate as perennial 'non-winner' in STU :lol: b/c I can -probably- compete better for the minor placings in STU vs. BSP... but that's b/c I won't prep my car to the level necessary to compete (which is totally 'my fault', I understand this).
whew.. o.k., sorry for the rambling... but I figure maybe another 'noob-digest' on how I got to where I am in autox might shed more insight into why ST classes are so appealing. I think they really do bring in the noobs... as designed.
| flyboymike | 10-05-2005 03:55 PM |
jamesohoh7- it sounds like you're in a bit of a tough spot for classing. I hope it works out for you. I think that the ideal class I'd like to see would be a street tire street mod class. Bolt-on suspension, whatever you want on the motor up to swapping in something else from the same manufacturer, but no r-comps.
Okay, lemme think here... classes are created from two factors, car potential and modification level. The stock classes are greatest in number to account for car potential differences. As the modification level allowed increases, for example, up to Street Touring, fewer different classes for car potential are required. Finally, when you get to Street Mod, reduce car potential to "sports car" or "not sports car." (SM versus SM2)
The problem for attracting some new blood is they might have already done modifications that put them in a class where they need to spend even more money to get competitive. I'd say it's usually tires that are the biggest difference, at least for those who get thrown all the way up to street mod. However, there are also a lot of other little bits on a car that can do surprising things to the class, such as an ALK putting you into a modified category. So, for new people who modified their car without giving a thought to autocrossing but suddenly realize they're interested in the sport, hwo can you have a chance at parity?
I think the only way to get close would be an indexed street tire class. Whatever class your car fits into, apply that PAX to the time and go against everyone else running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher. I understand that indexing like that can open up a whole new can of worms. However, this is supposed to be for novices who didn't think too much about autocrossing before modding the car. By the time they start to think about problems with the PAX, maybe they would be ready to go in one direction or another with their vehicle preparation. At least they'd have a reasonably level playing field to start off with.
Okay, lemme think here... classes are created from two factors, car potential and modification level. The stock classes are greatest in number to account for car potential differences. As the modification level allowed increases, for example, up to Street Touring, fewer different classes for car potential are required. Finally, when you get to Street Mod, reduce car potential to "sports car" or "not sports car." (SM versus SM2)
The problem for attracting some new blood is they might have already done modifications that put them in a class where they need to spend even more money to get competitive. I'd say it's usually tires that are the biggest difference, at least for those who get thrown all the way up to street mod. However, there are also a lot of other little bits on a car that can do surprising things to the class, such as an ALK putting you into a modified category. So, for new people who modified their car without giving a thought to autocrossing but suddenly realize they're interested in the sport, hwo can you have a chance at parity?
I think the only way to get close would be an indexed street tire class. Whatever class your car fits into, apply that PAX to the time and go against everyone else running tires with a treadwear rating of 140 or higher. I understand that indexing like that can open up a whole new can of worms. However, this is supposed to be for novices who didn't think too much about autocrossing before modding the car. By the time they start to think about problems with the PAX, maybe they would be ready to go in one direction or another with their vehicle preparation. At least they'd have a reasonably level playing field to start off with.
| z3coupe | 10-05-2005 08:09 PM |
[QUOTE]I like Street Touring because it gives me a place to turn my car into a great street car and still compete. I'll have my good daily driver qualities, something that's great fun on a twisty backroad, and capable of long road trips. Then, when Sunday rolls around and I find myself in a parking lot full of cones, I'll keep those same rims on my car, adjust the tire pressure, get my damper settings, and run. I might not win, but if I'm driving well, I'll be competitive. Street touring feels like the only place I can get that balance, and I can't help but feel that every effort should be made to maximize these classes so everyone can have an "arrive 'n drive" option. It definitely helped attract me to the sport.[/QUOTE]Oh FlyboyMike, you are a man after my own heart!!!! :lol: If only you have been around back in the 70's (and even earlier, but I started in 1974)! It truly was arrive and drive back then! You could show up in a cheap Triumph Spitfire or a Fiat X 1/9 with an excellent chance at winning. All the prep you needed to do (other than just keeping the @%@^##^ British car running every day) was to empty out your car and clean your helmet. Not counting maintenance (every day LOL!!!), these were only around $2000 - $4000 cars! Heck, at one event at the Utica go-kart track, I even got FTD Overall in an old beat up 69 Lotus Europa with skinny ole Uniroyal Rallye 180 tires and worn out shocks - beating a race prep Camaro (that later went on to IMSA racing - Jerry Sarnitaro) and a totally hot and trailered race prep Chevy Monza Spider with the V8 in it. Back then, even David had a chance to defeat Goliath :devil: Such a sad shame that AutoX has become almost as expen$ive, and over technical as IMSA road racing had become. Perhaps, like in road racing, a SPEC class like Spec RX7 or Spec Miata would come in handy? The Miata class in road racing sure has caught on like wildfire!
[QUOTE]The problem for attracting some new blood is they might have already done modifications that put them in a class where they need to spend even more money to get competitive. I'd say it's usually tires that are the biggest difference, at least for those who get thrown all the way up to street mod. However, there are also a lot of other little bits on a car that can do surprising things to the class, such as an ALK putting you into a modified category. So, for new people who modified their car without giving a thought to autocrossing but suddenly realize they're interested in the sport, hwo can you have a chance at parity?[/QUOTE]Now in the case of Subaru, this is a MAJOR problem caused by performance parts countermen at local dealers!!! These parts guys are so into themselves, and just want to sell you whatever THEY think is hot, and usually only for straight line performace or slamming cars down to the ground. They have no idea what SCCA or AutoX is all about, and to the customer, he thinks they know what they are talking about, and get sold the wrong goods. Part of this problem could be solved IF the dealerships were more informed. That is why I have talked with our local Subaru rep, and even started having some Subaru/SCCA open houses awhile back at the dealerships in my area to try and inform owners what is what. Have not done it for awhile, too time consuming and not enough help, but not long after I did these, we started to get a ton of Sube drivers out to the events, and much better informed. Also, our local Sube Club, with the help of SoA, held the 2nd Sube AutoX event recently. That helped a lot too. So in effect, if the local dealerships are not informed, then perhaps it is upon US to help new customers learn what SCCA and AutoX is all about.
*******************
Oh, and as a sidenote, I had sent a message to the CEO of SCCA, and my local Region telling them how they are missing out on excellent oportunities to reach new members. Every new owner of a WRX or STi gets that FREE SCCA membership. The dealers, once again, do not explain to the new owner anything about it, and it just gathers dust in the glovebox. Even if the new owner submits it, all they get is a hat of a nice letter saying hello. If you were in the advertising world, this would be a total waste of an excellent chance to gain more sales! SCCA now has a list of new members (and if they also got a list of who bought WRX/STi's), and does nothing with it! What should have happened, as I explained in my letter, is that National should give the list to the local Region, and then the Region should send out letters explaining their activities, what they are about, how to get in contact with them, and anything else you could think of to get them to come out. Its an almost given captive audience that literally SCREAMS for attention. If only they would act on this, and help inform the new members, this too could help gain support for ST classes, and help new owners make informed decisions on the mods they might purchase.
[QUOTE]The problem for attracting some new blood is they might have already done modifications that put them in a class where they need to spend even more money to get competitive. I'd say it's usually tires that are the biggest difference, at least for those who get thrown all the way up to street mod. However, there are also a lot of other little bits on a car that can do surprising things to the class, such as an ALK putting you into a modified category. So, for new people who modified their car without giving a thought to autocrossing but suddenly realize they're interested in the sport, hwo can you have a chance at parity?[/QUOTE]Now in the case of Subaru, this is a MAJOR problem caused by performance parts countermen at local dealers!!! These parts guys are so into themselves, and just want to sell you whatever THEY think is hot, and usually only for straight line performace or slamming cars down to the ground. They have no idea what SCCA or AutoX is all about, and to the customer, he thinks they know what they are talking about, and get sold the wrong goods. Part of this problem could be solved IF the dealerships were more informed. That is why I have talked with our local Subaru rep, and even started having some Subaru/SCCA open houses awhile back at the dealerships in my area to try and inform owners what is what. Have not done it for awhile, too time consuming and not enough help, but not long after I did these, we started to get a ton of Sube drivers out to the events, and much better informed. Also, our local Sube Club, with the help of SoA, held the 2nd Sube AutoX event recently. That helped a lot too. So in effect, if the local dealerships are not informed, then perhaps it is upon US to help new customers learn what SCCA and AutoX is all about.
*******************
Oh, and as a sidenote, I had sent a message to the CEO of SCCA, and my local Region telling them how they are missing out on excellent oportunities to reach new members. Every new owner of a WRX or STi gets that FREE SCCA membership. The dealers, once again, do not explain to the new owner anything about it, and it just gathers dust in the glovebox. Even if the new owner submits it, all they get is a hat of a nice letter saying hello. If you were in the advertising world, this would be a total waste of an excellent chance to gain more sales! SCCA now has a list of new members (and if they also got a list of who bought WRX/STi's), and does nothing with it! What should have happened, as I explained in my letter, is that National should give the list to the local Region, and then the Region should send out letters explaining their activities, what they are about, how to get in contact with them, and anything else you could think of to get them to come out. Its an almost given captive audience that literally SCREAMS for attention. If only they would act on this, and help inform the new members, this too could help gain support for ST classes, and help new owners make informed decisions on the mods they might purchase.
| jcroy66 | 10-06-2005 07:10 AM |
Uh, if your local region didn't send you anything when you became a new member, that's your REGION's fault. We got all sorts of crap. A list of every member in the region, SCCA stickers, newsletters, activities, etc.
| z3coupe | 10-06-2005 07:42 AM |
[QUOTE]Uh, if your local region didn't send you anything when you became a new member, that's your REGION's fault. We got all sorts of crap. A list of every member in the region, SCCA stickers, newsletters, activities, etc.[/QUOTE]That is great J! But it appears not every Region is proactive. And I was trying to do something about that. For me it was no problem, as I have been a member of SCCA on and off for many years. But now a days, it is extremely important to reach a lot of the new owners so as to get them off the illegal racing, and send them in the right direction. In Ontario California there is a major illegal street racing problem, BIG time. So, the city gave the local cops carte blanche to hassle anyone with a trick car. They just plain do not want any hot looking cars in their city, ricers or not. Here I am, 50, older than the cop who pulled me over when I was just leaving the Ontario Mills Mall parking lot, profiled my car (before seeing who was driving it) and hassled me even more when he DID see I was older than him. See my old post about Friendly Officer Ortiz. I won the case, but it was a major hassle for me. I had nothing to do with the illegal scene there, had my SCCA sticker on the car, work for the local AAA Auto Club (which fights against the street racing, and I am involved with that in a number of ways), yet he would not let me get in a word, and got nastier. So any tool available needs to be used by every Region to get the word out, and not only save lives, but end the hassles to inocent folks. Kind of my pet peeve :disco: If anyone has heard of Gunnar Nettleship, and get our So Cal AAA magazine Westways, I got them to interview Gunnar for a sidebar to a major article about the street racing problem. He used to be a street/canyon racer. But when he got introduced to Solo II, he became a changed man. He is now a very good driver and valued as a great guy by all. I also got the SCCA mentioned as well:
[url]http://www.aaa-calif.com/westways/0505/features/deadlygame.asp[/url]
So as you can see, I am trying to do my part both for SCCA and ST. Enjoy the article!
[url]http://www.aaa-calif.com/westways/0505/features/deadlygame.asp[/url]
So as you can see, I am trying to do my part both for SCCA and ST. Enjoy the article!
| jamesohoh7 | 10-06-2005 08:39 AM |
Not to muddy the waters too much more, but I've often wondered what it'd be like to have a set (or sub-set?) of stock classes that ran real street tires, like ST classes (treadwear above 140 or 200 or whatever the current limit is).
I dare say that this would attract a ton of noobs b/c stuff like tires are some of the very first things someone changes... re-92's anyone? :lol:
I know that dot-r's are awesome, and for the folks willing to spend the $$ they're great. I admit it's a sticky issue... just pondering out loud.
To follow along flyboymike's theme a bit: you wouldn't necessarily have to have two distinct sets of 'stock' classes.... just PAX the tires differently (and yeah, in effect, that's probably like having two different classes, but at least they could run together).
So, DOT-R's get the current PAX, and the 'true street tire' cars would get a slightly softer PAX... adjust these over time (like is done now) and I'm betting some sort of happy medium would be found after a year. Carping will always exist, and not everyone will be happy... no different than now.
I guess the impetus there would be that for people that are attracted to a no-mods 'stock' class that they could still expect to be PAX'ed into being competitive even if they don't want to spend the $$ on DOT-R's.
If people are worried that everyone would flock to this and stay permanently and decimate the other classes, then put some kind of 'point-out' rule on it... if you win the class for the year (or win it x-number of times??), you get moved up... or something similar. This is done in professional motocross now... entrants in the 125 (now called MX-Lights) ranks can 'point-out' of the class after some time-span and must move up. If they struggle in the bigger class, then after some other time-span (I think it's a year or two?), they can move back down and the points-clock resets.
Not pefect, but at least it would keep a little motion in the class.
I dare say that this would attract a ton of noobs b/c stuff like tires are some of the very first things someone changes... re-92's anyone? :lol:
I know that dot-r's are awesome, and for the folks willing to spend the $$ they're great. I admit it's a sticky issue... just pondering out loud.
To follow along flyboymike's theme a bit: you wouldn't necessarily have to have two distinct sets of 'stock' classes.... just PAX the tires differently (and yeah, in effect, that's probably like having two different classes, but at least they could run together).
So, DOT-R's get the current PAX, and the 'true street tire' cars would get a slightly softer PAX... adjust these over time (like is done now) and I'm betting some sort of happy medium would be found after a year. Carping will always exist, and not everyone will be happy... no different than now.
I guess the impetus there would be that for people that are attracted to a no-mods 'stock' class that they could still expect to be PAX'ed into being competitive even if they don't want to spend the $$ on DOT-R's.
If people are worried that everyone would flock to this and stay permanently and decimate the other classes, then put some kind of 'point-out' rule on it... if you win the class for the year (or win it x-number of times??), you get moved up... or something similar. This is done in professional motocross now... entrants in the 125 (now called MX-Lights) ranks can 'point-out' of the class after some time-span and must move up. If they struggle in the bigger class, then after some other time-span (I think it's a year or two?), they can move back down and the points-clock resets.
Not pefect, but at least it would keep a little motion in the class.
| jcroy66 | 10-06-2005 11:31 AM |
A lot of regional clubs add a ST-indexed class for the DOT-R classes. The SCCA rulebook has the NATIONAL rules, local clubs are free to add/modify additional classes and/or rules that meet their local needs/wants (with the exception of FJr classes - those cannot be mucked with for legal/liability reasons).
| jamesohoh7 | 10-06-2005 11:42 AM |
^^^^ yeah, I meant to say I was only just advocating that as a local-level thing.... like my local region did in forming the local ST classes STA through STF.
So, you'd have a set of local classes called AST-HST (or something), though I'm sure some of them would be relatively idle (like some of the stock classes are anyway...)... but they'd still really only be a PAX difference w/in AS-HS, not run as an independent class, so that they'd run at the same time/weather/whatever.
So, you'd have a set of local classes called AST-HST (or something), though I'm sure some of them would be relatively idle (like some of the stock classes are anyway...)... but they'd still really only be a PAX difference w/in AS-HS, not run as an independent class, so that they'd run at the same time/weather/whatever.
| TheWRX | 10-06-2005 12:20 PM |
As Jen said, additional local street tire classes are a great idea, and many regions do that already. We run an STO (Street Touring Open) class. Anything is legal, as long as it has a license plate, and runs on street tires. It's quite popular with newbies. They can show up with the vehicles they modified at their hearts desire, without worries about finding an appropriate class (which probably wouldn't exist). You might have a Noble, a turboed and stripped rice bucket, and a juiced up muscle car running against each other. It's all fun and games, and they don't even have to read a rule book.
Some regions I have visited go a bit overboard for my taste. They have street tire and novice variations for each class. So they end up with potentially around 200 classes, which makes the average class size rather small if you have 60 participants. And the class names long... B Stock Stree Tires Novice Ladies, anybody?
But local classing needs are very different from National ones. That's why regions can do whatever works for them.
Some regions I have visited go a bit overboard for my taste. They have street tire and novice variations for each class. So they end up with potentially around 200 classes, which makes the average class size rather small if you have 60 participants. And the class names long... B Stock Stree Tires Novice Ladies, anybody?
But local classing needs are very different from National ones. That's why regions can do whatever works for them.
| z3coupe | 10-06-2005 05:21 PM |
In our region, we have 2 stock street tire classes:
SK1 - SS, AS, BS, and FS
SK2 - CS, DS, ES, GS, HS
Winner is calculated using PAX. Believe it or not, each of these classes can sometime pass STS or STX in attendance, and always are more full that any of the regular R tire classes. Of course, it also gives some bragging rights as well, for how often can a 2.8L Z3 Coupe beat a ZR1 Vette?
TheWRX, I like that STO class! Sounds like a perfect "REGION ONLY" class for new drivers to enter in for the FUN of it, not serious competition. That class is a way they can get more interested in the sport and learn what to modify later if they get serious, but don't get turned off cause they got squashed by being underprepared in the correct class. And maybe instead of a 1st - ???? place trophy based on top time, maybe give trophies out to the ones who made the most improvement, or the coolest/smoothest run? Dangle that carrot in front of them in a way that they can reach it.
SK1 - SS, AS, BS, and FS
SK2 - CS, DS, ES, GS, HS
Winner is calculated using PAX. Believe it or not, each of these classes can sometime pass STS or STX in attendance, and always are more full that any of the regular R tire classes. Of course, it also gives some bragging rights as well, for how often can a 2.8L Z3 Coupe beat a ZR1 Vette?
TheWRX, I like that STO class! Sounds like a perfect "REGION ONLY" class for new drivers to enter in for the FUN of it, not serious competition. That class is a way they can get more interested in the sport and learn what to modify later if they get serious, but don't get turned off cause they got squashed by being underprepared in the correct class. And maybe instead of a 1st - ???? place trophy based on top time, maybe give trophies out to the ones who made the most improvement, or the coolest/smoothest run? Dangle that carrot in front of them in a way that they can reach it.
| makofoto | 10-06-2005 05:31 PM |
As you can see from the STU summary of attendance at National Tour events, Southern CA had the strongest turn out. And we're growing. Team Blew is growing, over 50 members now ... and a lot of the new drivers have STI's. After all, if you are basically interested in performance ... what new Subaru are you going to buy. We get a lot of new drivers by "advertising" autocrossing in our Nasioc Regional Forum. I would highly recommend that all of you do that. We chide the "canyon runners," and street racers to come out to our (CSCC & Team Blew) events and put their skills and cars on the line . After every event we are getting at least one new member. A number of them are already anxiously waiting our National Tour event next March.
Some are going straight into STU, STX and SM ... others are running their AS and DS cars in our local SK1 and SK2 street tire indexed classes ... Stock class Street tire classes that use the Stock Indexes plus a street tire index. Some are just (intelligently) waiting to see what coilovers, etc. they want to go with before joining the ST classes.
Some are going straight into STU, STX and SM ... others are running their AS and DS cars in our local SK1 and SK2 street tire indexed classes ... Stock class Street tire classes that use the Stock Indexes plus a street tire index. Some are just (intelligently) waiting to see what coilovers, etc. they want to go with before joining the ST classes.
| MrDestructo | 10-06-2005 05:56 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]A lot of regional clubs add a ST-indexed class for the DOT-R classes. The SCCA rulebook has the NATIONAL rules, local clubs are free to add/modify additional classes and/or rules that meet their local needs/wants (with the exception of FJr classes - those cannot be mucked with for legal/liability reasons).[/QUOTE]
We have that out here. Sometimes the "Street Tire PAX" class has the best competition out of all classes. We typically use the ST PAX class as a stepping stone to full blown OPEN. For those that get good enough try dot-r tires they can do that, or you can just dominate ST PAX until the next up and coming star wins.
We have that out here. Sometimes the "Street Tire PAX" class has the best competition out of all classes. We typically use the ST PAX class as a stepping stone to full blown OPEN. For those that get good enough try dot-r tires they can do that, or you can just dominate ST PAX until the next up and coming star wins.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét