| craver | 07-18-2005 05:49 AM |
Is EVO that invincible ???
�
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Just rack a thought wonder if EVO that powerfull, sorry dun get me wrong( Im starting a flame war here) Im a wrx owner just wonder how powerfull its EVO compare to our wrx & sti model. I always get comment evo has bullet proof engine which have unlimited power and also ECU aid to compensate yr drivin so drivin that its a ease. Furthermore i seldom come across evo owner comment on too much understeer.
Would like to hear more thoughts on that. Thank
Would like to hear more thoughts on that. Thank
| MrH00nel2 | 07-18-2005 07:04 AM |
all im gonna say is that expect some flaming and bickering
| Tremec | 07-18-2005 07:20 AM |
Well so far I have been auto-xing fo close to 2 years and we only have had 3 EVO's come out to play, the first one did fair but couldnt get his trunk open after the event seems like he had some body twist from the tight course.
The second one ran good without any problems the driver was new so you really couldnt tell what the car was capible of.
The 3rd one wouldnt run his car because he would have to sign up using his name and car type the car was brand new and he was worried about losing his warranty.
This past friday I want to a HPDE event at Roebling Road in Savannah put on by seat time. There was an EVO that ran but had to quit after the 2nd session because his front diff went out.
With all of that said the guy that ran the event, John said the EVO was lighter and easier to handle through the turns than the STi and he could turn about 8/10ths of a second faster lap times in the EVO than the STi as he has driven them both back to back.
The second one ran good without any problems the driver was new so you really couldnt tell what the car was capible of.
The 3rd one wouldnt run his car because he would have to sign up using his name and car type the car was brand new and he was worried about losing his warranty.
This past friday I want to a HPDE event at Roebling Road in Savannah put on by seat time. There was an EVO that ran but had to quit after the 2nd session because his front diff went out.
With all of that said the guy that ran the event, John said the EVO was lighter and easier to handle through the turns than the STi and he could turn about 8/10ths of a second faster lap times in the EVO than the STi as he has driven them both back to back.
| craver | 07-18-2005 07:21 AM |
its ok i expected that . just a open debate that all .
| TheWRX | 07-18-2005 07:30 AM |
The srt4 is still fastAr! :p
[SIZE=1]Sorry, couldn't resist...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Sorry, couldn't resist...[/SIZE]
| Fitz | 07-18-2005 08:10 AM |
*shrug*
Hard to quantify. Both my Subaru and Evo have interesting handling traits as well as pro's and con's. Basing the comparison on anything but an identical top level driver and a controlled course will allow your result to swing in either direction.
Fitz
[url]www.Flat4Racing.com[/url]
Hard to quantify. Both my Subaru and Evo have interesting handling traits as well as pro's and con's. Basing the comparison on anything but an identical top level driver and a controlled course will allow your result to swing in either direction.
Fitz
[url]www.Flat4Racing.com[/url]
| funsti | 07-18-2005 09:27 AM |
You're always going to get differing opinions on that question. The Evo and STi are very close in performance in every way. Comparing them with a top level driver back to back may not reveal much unless the driver truly knows the different ways you have to drive each car to get the most out of them.
A really good driver (racerjon1) drove my modded STi (Whiteline 'race' G4s, stock sways!!, TBE, intake) and a (mostly) stock Evo back to back in fun runs at the SCR-SCCA autocross this past saturday and was very impressed with my car. He has also driven an extremely heavily modded Evo which had (I think) over 500whp and heavy suspension mods at One-Lap of America so he has good experience with them. He said he thought that a modded Evo would be better than a modded STi. Of course that's a theoretical statement about comparing two cars that had all the right modifications done to them so it would basically come down to a chassis comparison. Regardless, the difference between the two cars both stock and modded is going to be within the margin of error of driver skill.
A really good driver (racerjon1) drove my modded STi (Whiteline 'race' G4s, stock sways!!, TBE, intake) and a (mostly) stock Evo back to back in fun runs at the SCR-SCCA autocross this past saturday and was very impressed with my car. He has also driven an extremely heavily modded Evo which had (I think) over 500whp and heavy suspension mods at One-Lap of America so he has good experience with them. He said he thought that a modded Evo would be better than a modded STi. Of course that's a theoretical statement about comparing two cars that had all the right modifications done to them so it would basically come down to a chassis comparison. Regardless, the difference between the two cars both stock and modded is going to be within the margin of error of driver skill.
| DrBiggly | 07-18-2005 09:28 AM |
Tremec,
Keep in mind that while Jon is a great driver, HE can turn 8/10ths of a lap faster in an EVO vs an STi. It's all about being comfortable in a particular car and how well one knows it. I'm not sure how much of that time has to do with Jon's driving and comfort level vs. actual performance. I wouldn't say it's true in all cases, but it certainly could be a starting point for the analysis at hand. :)
-Biggly
Keep in mind that while Jon is a great driver, HE can turn 8/10ths of a lap faster in an EVO vs an STi. It's all about being comfortable in a particular car and how well one knows it. I'm not sure how much of that time has to do with Jon's driving and comfort level vs. actual performance. I wouldn't say it's true in all cases, but it certainly could be a starting point for the analysis at hand. :)
-Biggly
| bjorn240 | 07-18-2005 09:38 AM |
A 2005 Gr.N Subaru WRX STi is a better rally car than a 2003 Open Class Mitsubishi Evolution.
Carry on,
- Christian
Carry on,
- Christian
| MattNJ2.8 | 07-18-2005 09:43 AM |
I think that both cars are very well matched. Competition is great :)
Both cars are exceptionally forgiving.
The only area which I was suprised was at Pocono raceway where I was able to pull on stock STi's a fair amount on the straightaway. Otherwise, it's down to a test of driver's skill.
Both are amazing cars. :banana:
Both cars are exceptionally forgiving.
The only area which I was suprised was at Pocono raceway where I was able to pull on stock STi's a fair amount on the straightaway. Otherwise, it's down to a test of driver's skill.
Both are amazing cars. :banana:
| trhoppe | 07-18-2005 11:46 AM |
Lets see.
Da EVO more powerfull its STi unlimited power yr drvin ur EVO seldom comment owner across bullet proof.
Thats the reason why.
-Tom
Da EVO more powerfull its STi unlimited power yr drvin ur EVO seldom comment owner across bullet proof.
Thats the reason why.
-Tom
| randy zimmer | 07-18-2005 11:49 AM |
"...and also ECU aid to compensate yr drivin so drivin that its a ease..."
It is a wonder anyone knew what you meant.
Please read and correct your post before making everyone suffer.
rz
It is a wonder anyone knew what you meant.
Please read and correct your post before making everyone suffer.
rz
| MrDestructo | 07-18-2005 12:19 PM |
Perfect timing.
This past weekend in the Arizona region we had an official "STI vs. EVO" competition. We had an AutoX at the Law Enforcement Training Area at Central Arizona College.
We have had alot of smack talking going on in our local regional forum about how much better the EVO is vs. the STI in all areas. One of the fast people out here, Brian Peters, that often times sets FTOD in OTHER PEOPLE'S CARS, challenged our local fast Subaru guru, Josh Sortor, to a heads up challenge.
We took two cars, one EVO and one STI(my car), both 99.9% stock(including tires) and went four runs. Josh ended up 2.0 seconds ahead. Brian did have a time that was 1 second back, but it had a cone. Josh's last run was the fastest, and he missed the shift from 1st to 2nd off the starting line.
A few people took ride alongs in both cars to see how they compared. Some of the comments I remember from the morning were...
"The EVO always felt like a front wheel drive car around the course, where as the STI with the superior diff felt more like a RWD car"
"While the EVO has better steering feel and inputs and maybe a nice tranny, the STI makes up for it up with a nicer power and that sweet diff."
"If Subaru made a lightweight version, such as the EVO RS, it would be a toss up as to the best car"
"If/when steering rack bushings become legal in Street Touring classes, look out STU"
"I'm wondering how fun that car would be with more front camber"
Bottom line - It's the driver, not the car. They both have some short comings, but the race to be "the best" is too close to call. get someone in an STI that knows what they are doing and it's a different game.
As far as me, I had a blast. It was my first time out in the STI since my accident in my old WRX, and after the first run jitters I was having the time of my life. :banana: :disco: That's all that matters to me.
If you were interested, here are some pictures from the event. The STI vs. EVO pics:
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328964"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328964[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328965"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328965[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328968"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328968[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328764"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328764[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328766"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328766[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328767"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328767[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328784"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328784[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328807"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328807[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328809"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328809[/url]
and a ton more on this page:
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/20050717_cac&page=17"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/20050717_cac&page=17[/url]
Here is a link to an in car video from Greg Rubenstein's ESP STI(6th PAX on the day), it's in the first post.
[url="http://www.azsolo2.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=3334&"]http://www.azsolo2.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=3334&[/url]
Overall is was a really fun morning(though hot!). If we try this again we might put Josh in the EVO and Brian in the STI.
MF
This past weekend in the Arizona region we had an official "STI vs. EVO" competition. We had an AutoX at the Law Enforcement Training Area at Central Arizona College.
We have had alot of smack talking going on in our local regional forum about how much better the EVO is vs. the STI in all areas. One of the fast people out here, Brian Peters, that often times sets FTOD in OTHER PEOPLE'S CARS, challenged our local fast Subaru guru, Josh Sortor, to a heads up challenge.
We took two cars, one EVO and one STI(my car), both 99.9% stock(including tires) and went four runs. Josh ended up 2.0 seconds ahead. Brian did have a time that was 1 second back, but it had a cone. Josh's last run was the fastest, and he missed the shift from 1st to 2nd off the starting line.
A few people took ride alongs in both cars to see how they compared. Some of the comments I remember from the morning were...
"The EVO always felt like a front wheel drive car around the course, where as the STI with the superior diff felt more like a RWD car"
"While the EVO has better steering feel and inputs and maybe a nice tranny, the STI makes up for it up with a nicer power and that sweet diff."
"If Subaru made a lightweight version, such as the EVO RS, it would be a toss up as to the best car"
"If/when steering rack bushings become legal in Street Touring classes, look out STU"
"I'm wondering how fun that car would be with more front camber"
Bottom line - It's the driver, not the car. They both have some short comings, but the race to be "the best" is too close to call. get someone in an STI that knows what they are doing and it's a different game.
As far as me, I had a blast. It was my first time out in the STI since my accident in my old WRX, and after the first run jitters I was having the time of my life. :banana: :disco: That's all that matters to me.
If you were interested, here are some pictures from the event. The STI vs. EVO pics:
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328964"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328964[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328965"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328965[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328968"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328968[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328764"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328764[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328766"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328766[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328767"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328767[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328784"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328784[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328807"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328807[/url]
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328809"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/image/46328809[/url]
and a ton more on this page:
[url="http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/20050717_cac&page=17"]http://www.pbase.com/rsrock/20050717_cac&page=17[/url]
Here is a link to an in car video from Greg Rubenstein's ESP STI(6th PAX on the day), it's in the first post.
[url="http://www.azsolo2.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=3334&"]http://www.azsolo2.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=3334&[/url]
Overall is was a really fun morning(though hot!). If we try this again we might put Josh in the EVO and Brian in the STI.
MF
| Roy Dietsch | 07-18-2005 01:07 PM |
Evos have crazy understeer...
Roy
Roy
| DrBiggly | 07-18-2005 01:36 PM |
MrDestructo,
That is indeed good timing. Thanks for a great post. :)
That is indeed good timing. Thanks for a great post. :)
| KC | 07-18-2005 01:39 PM |
*sigh* 2005 Nationals.. the class to watch will be SM.
--kC
--kC
| Jsortor | 07-18-2005 01:48 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]*sigh* 2005 Nationals.. the class to watch will be SM.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Isn't a civic going to win that one? :D
--kC[/QUOTE]
Isn't a civic going to win that one? :D
| KC | 07-18-2005 01:51 PM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]Isn't a civic going to win that one? :D[/QUOTE]
Nope. An EVO will. Well prepped car with 'the Alien' driving it.
Nope. An EVO will. Well prepped car with 'the Alien' driving it.
| Arnie | 07-18-2005 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=randy zimmer]"...and also ECU aid to compensate yr drivin so drivin that its a ease..."
It is a wonder anyone knew what you meant.
Please read and correct your post before making everyone suffer.
rz[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Lets see.
Da EVO more powerfull its STi unlimited power yr drvin ur EVO seldom comment owner across bullet proof.
Thats the reason why.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
c'mon guys, cut the guy some slack, he's from singapore and english is not his native language. :rolleyes:
It is a wonder anyone knew what you meant.
Please read and correct your post before making everyone suffer.
rz[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Lets see.
Da EVO more powerfull its STi unlimited power yr drvin ur EVO seldom comment owner across bullet proof.
Thats the reason why.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
c'mon guys, cut the guy some slack, he's from singapore and english is not his native language. :rolleyes:
| TyrannoSullyRex | 07-18-2005 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Nope. An EVO will. Well prepped car with 'the Alien' driving it.[/QUOTE]
the Alien could show up in a shopping cart with two square wheels and trophy.
the Alien could show up in a shopping cart with two square wheels and trophy.
| KC | 07-18-2005 02:03 PM |
[QUOTE=TyrannoSullyRex]the Alien could show up in a shopping cart with two square wheels and trophy.[/QUOTE]
Ohhh... you mean the SRT-4 which he trophied in last year? :lol:
I'm not talking about trophying tho... he'll win the class. ;)
Ohhh... you mean the SRT-4 which he trophied in last year? :lol:
I'm not talking about trophying tho... he'll win the class. ;)
| DrBiggly | 07-18-2005 02:09 PM |
I've heard his driving described as "robotic."
| randy zimmer | 07-18-2005 03:38 PM |
forget it.
rz
rz
| dwx | 07-18-2005 03:44 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Nope. An EVO will. Well prepped car with 'the Alien' driving it.[/QUOTE]
Even with Daddio driving it, he's going to have to come up with something more out of that EVO the way it currently sits to beat Sias and Reitmer... Toledo Pro against Tunnell should be an interesting fight, but obviously has some advantages for the EVO over the M3.
As for EVO vs. STI, it's a driver's battle. That 500hp EVO Jon was driving at our Miller Park C&D event got beat by an almost stock STI on stock tires. Heck I almost beat that car in my WRX. (on an autocross course).
Even with Daddio driving it, he's going to have to come up with something more out of that EVO the way it currently sits to beat Sias and Reitmer... Toledo Pro against Tunnell should be an interesting fight, but obviously has some advantages for the EVO over the M3.
As for EVO vs. STI, it's a driver's battle. That 500hp EVO Jon was driving at our Miller Park C&D event got beat by an almost stock STI on stock tires. Heck I almost beat that car in my WRX. (on an autocross course).
| AUTOwrXER | 07-18-2005 04:35 PM |
Daddio's car is better than when he last drove it. It now has the turbo swap. He also has been playing around with the setup, and now that he's dialing the car in, look out. He was well clear of the field in Devens despite a poor first day and cones on his first two runs Sunday. He'll have whatever it takes to win in Topeka ;)
| BigJ04STi | 07-18-2005 04:46 PM |
Biggest advantage the EVO has, speaking in the USDM market only, is the length of time the 4G63 motor has been used in comparison to the USDM EJ257...
The Evo has many years of backing here in the us starting early on with the original DSM's...Subaru, when the finally decide to release the WRX and then the STi, basically gave us the short end of the stick as compared to the JDM versions.
That may or may not change as time passes...Nonetheless...the EVO is a very stout powerful car, The STi is a very solid car too. I hate the flame wars and debates that start, since the majority of STi and Evo owners are not professionals, and just bought their respective cars due to a love of power, handling, speed, etc.
I chose the Sti over the evo, cause I love the look and feel...My friend has an EVO that made a helluva lot more power than I do, for half the cost it'd be for me...but we are still friends, and if he ever races I'll cheer for him..I Love cars in general...
Honestly in the end it's the owners that cause the problems...not the cars...
I love cars more than women most of the time...though, hot women in hot cars, is plain old hot...but that's off topic...
The Evo has many years of backing here in the us starting early on with the original DSM's...Subaru, when the finally decide to release the WRX and then the STi, basically gave us the short end of the stick as compared to the JDM versions.
That may or may not change as time passes...Nonetheless...the EVO is a very stout powerful car, The STi is a very solid car too. I hate the flame wars and debates that start, since the majority of STi and Evo owners are not professionals, and just bought their respective cars due to a love of power, handling, speed, etc.
I chose the Sti over the evo, cause I love the look and feel...My friend has an EVO that made a helluva lot more power than I do, for half the cost it'd be for me...but we are still friends, and if he ever races I'll cheer for him..I Love cars in general...
Honestly in the end it's the owners that cause the problems...not the cars...
I love cars more than women most of the time...though, hot women in hot cars, is plain old hot...but that's off topic...
| TyrannoSullyRex | 07-18-2005 04:58 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Ohhh... you mean the SRT-4 which he trophied in last year? :lol:
I'm not talking about trophying tho... he'll win the class. ;)[/QUOTE]
It was interesting seeing him and Per trying to get the damn (side exit) exhaust to stay on the thing (I was working grid), they both never had time to concentrate on driving (it seemed like, they only called a mechanical once IIRC), they were thinking about keeping the car from leaving pieces on course.
I'm not talking about trophying tho... he'll win the class. ;)[/QUOTE]
It was interesting seeing him and Per trying to get the damn (side exit) exhaust to stay on the thing (I was working grid), they both never had time to concentrate on driving (it seemed like, they only called a mechanical once IIRC), they were thinking about keeping the car from leaving pieces on course.
| RB5 Clone | 07-18-2005 05:13 PM |
[QUOTE=BigJ04STi]... hate the flame wars and debates that start, since the majority of STi and Evo owners are not professionals, and just bought their respective cars due to a love of power, handling, speed, etc.
[/QUOTE]
another poster said it, too, "main difference is the drivers, not the cars"
sorry if that's a boring answer to all you tuner guys, but it's true.
wanna go faster? it's always more cost effective learning to drive better before spending cubic $$$ on mods.
don't agree? then you've never seen top racers like Andrew Comrie-Picard, Travis Pastrana, Matt Iorio, John Cassidy or Ken Block (all of whom drive absolutely no-holds barred awesome dirt-spewing beastie rally cars) working their butts off in the heat and dust at Team O'Neil rally school, learning how to drive somewhere close to their cars' potential.
Even a bone stock STi or Evo has performance built in that a racer of a few years ago would have loved to have.
cheers,
Dave G
[/QUOTE]
another poster said it, too, "main difference is the drivers, not the cars"
sorry if that's a boring answer to all you tuner guys, but it's true.
wanna go faster? it's always more cost effective learning to drive better before spending cubic $$$ on mods.
don't agree? then you've never seen top racers like Andrew Comrie-Picard, Travis Pastrana, Matt Iorio, John Cassidy or Ken Block (all of whom drive absolutely no-holds barred awesome dirt-spewing beastie rally cars) working their butts off in the heat and dust at Team O'Neil rally school, learning how to drive somewhere close to their cars' potential.
Even a bone stock STi or Evo has performance built in that a racer of a few years ago would have loved to have.
cheers,
Dave G
| Roy Dietsch | 07-18-2005 06:29 PM |
There is a younger driver comming up that I feel will be as good if not better as Daddio...just watch the former champs fall in AS (runs for cover)
Roy
Roy
| PA04STI | 07-18-2005 06:29 PM |
Stock even.....
Modded yes at the strips it will beat an STi almost everytime. More efficent engine (inline 4) better intake & exhaust design.
Can modify alot easier & cheaper. Yes they will almost always win @ the strip now you can sell your STi or whatever & jump on the band wagon & get an Evo.
Wait if you want even faster get a modded Supra or Z06 & be like everyone else that buys "the quickest car"
Modded yes at the strips it will beat an STi almost everytime. More efficent engine (inline 4) better intake & exhaust design.
Can modify alot easier & cheaper. Yes they will almost always win @ the strip now you can sell your STi or whatever & jump on the band wagon & get an Evo.
Wait if you want even faster get a modded Supra or Z06 & be like everyone else that buys "the quickest car"
| Butt Dyno | 07-18-2005 08:30 PM |
[QUOTE=MrDestructo]
"If/when steering rack bushings become legal in Street Touring classes, look out STU"[/QUOTE]Yeah, the steering rack bushings should be enough to put the STi over the top.
:confused:
On a related note, steering rack bushings are up for member comment:
[url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/142734/ShowPost.aspx[/url]
So if you really want them, write the SEB and come up with reasons why it would be good to allow them.
john
"If/when steering rack bushings become legal in Street Touring classes, look out STU"[/QUOTE]Yeah, the steering rack bushings should be enough to put the STi over the top.
:confused:
On a related note, steering rack bushings are up for member comment:
[url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/142734/ShowPost.aspx[/url]
So if you really want them, write the SEB and come up with reasons why it would be good to allow them.
john
| cooleyjb | 07-18-2005 10:14 PM |
[QUOTE=Roy Dietsch]There is a younger driver comming up that I feel will be as good if not better as Daddio...just watch the former champs fall in AS (runs for cover)
Roy[/QUOTE]
Colin could be as good as Daddio but he has a LONG LONG way to go. Colin should take AS this year and is truly a great driver but Daddio is on a different level. At Toledo while I was working he was doing things to the car that noone else was even approaching. The line, the speed carried, etc was well beyond anyone else in his run group. With the way he's developing the car and his ability ot make it get around the cones, SM will be fun to watch unfold at Nationals.
Roy[/QUOTE]
Colin could be as good as Daddio but he has a LONG LONG way to go. Colin should take AS this year and is truly a great driver but Daddio is on a different level. At Toledo while I was working he was doing things to the car that noone else was even approaching. The line, the speed carried, etc was well beyond anyone else in his run group. With the way he's developing the car and his ability ot make it get around the cones, SM will be fun to watch unfold at Nationals.
| racerjon1 | 07-18-2005 10:19 PM |
Now that I have come up a few times i guess i better chime in...
03/04 STi vs Evo STOCK, the Evo is more comfortable to drive, and produces better lap times for me on a roadcourse, but not by much.. when people ask me which i would chose I usually say "pick the one you like the best, the rest is a toss up"
05 STi is a lot better, i credit the LSD if nothing else.. 05 STi vs 03/04 Evo.. STi has it covered. I have not been in an 05 Evo yet to compare.
The "rwd" feel of the STi is nice, and I think is what will give it an edge on the autocross course when you get to make up for the suspension differences, and ultimate power isn't as big a factor as driveability.
BTW.. at the Car & Driver event we were only 400 whp, and did not have the turbo/engine setup we had at One Lap. so we were spooling at 4200 rpm, and had less torque through the range. Also due to a mistake in the shop, the tall drag race tranny went in and i had one gear, and it was worth 70 mph.. boost came on and made it hard to drive, the suspension is still our first try, spring rates are off, shocks are undervalved, etc.. As usual Autocrossing can really point out some shortcomings in Suspension, and it was really short that day. its why Luke before he crashed was handing us our ass on One Lap. Welcome to R&D. It will get better :)
The C&D event was more like a good example that power and a smattering of handling mods not so well thought out yet (or tested) is less important than a well sorted almost stock car.. (An S2000 got both the STi and my Evo that day)
Anyway to the origional point.. BOTh cars are incredible, I am very happy to drive either at any point, and i think that even though the Evo might have a little better feel stock, and the STi has the better power, when it comes down to brass tacks its a toss up, and its GREAT that both Subaru and Mitsubishi have them on the market for us to play with.
Jon K
[url]www.seat-time.com[/url]
03/04 STi vs Evo STOCK, the Evo is more comfortable to drive, and produces better lap times for me on a roadcourse, but not by much.. when people ask me which i would chose I usually say "pick the one you like the best, the rest is a toss up"
05 STi is a lot better, i credit the LSD if nothing else.. 05 STi vs 03/04 Evo.. STi has it covered. I have not been in an 05 Evo yet to compare.
The "rwd" feel of the STi is nice, and I think is what will give it an edge on the autocross course when you get to make up for the suspension differences, and ultimate power isn't as big a factor as driveability.
BTW.. at the Car & Driver event we were only 400 whp, and did not have the turbo/engine setup we had at One Lap. so we were spooling at 4200 rpm, and had less torque through the range. Also due to a mistake in the shop, the tall drag race tranny went in and i had one gear, and it was worth 70 mph.. boost came on and made it hard to drive, the suspension is still our first try, spring rates are off, shocks are undervalved, etc.. As usual Autocrossing can really point out some shortcomings in Suspension, and it was really short that day. its why Luke before he crashed was handing us our ass on One Lap. Welcome to R&D. It will get better :)
The C&D event was more like a good example that power and a smattering of handling mods not so well thought out yet (or tested) is less important than a well sorted almost stock car.. (An S2000 got both the STi and my Evo that day)
Anyway to the origional point.. BOTh cars are incredible, I am very happy to drive either at any point, and i think that even though the Evo might have a little better feel stock, and the STi has the better power, when it comes down to brass tacks its a toss up, and its GREAT that both Subaru and Mitsubishi have them on the market for us to play with.
Jon K
[url]www.seat-time.com[/url]
| MrDestructo | 07-18-2005 10:48 PM |
[QUOTE=racerjon1]
Anyway to the origional point.. BOTh cars are incredible, I am very happy to drive either at any point, and i think that even though the Evo might have a little better feel stock, and the STi has the better power, when it comes down to brass tacks its a toss up, and its GREAT that both Subaru and Mitsubishi have them on the market for us to play with.
[/QUOTE]
I want to be his friend. Well said!
Anyway to the origional point.. BOTh cars are incredible, I am very happy to drive either at any point, and i think that even though the Evo might have a little better feel stock, and the STi has the better power, when it comes down to brass tacks its a toss up, and its GREAT that both Subaru and Mitsubishi have them on the market for us to play with.
[/QUOTE]
I want to be his friend. Well said!
| MrDestructo | 07-18-2005 10:52 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]Yeah, the steering rack bushings should be enough to put the STi over the top.
:confused:
[/QUOTE]
Why the :confused: ??? It's a well known fact that people who have switched to the Whiteline bushings report a night and day difference in steering feel. That's not too hard to understand.
:confused:
:confused:
[/QUOTE]
Why the :confused: ??? It's a well known fact that people who have switched to the Whiteline bushings report a night and day difference in steering feel. That's not too hard to understand.
:confused:
| Butt Dyno | 07-18-2005 10:58 PM |
[QUOTE=MrDestructo]Why the :confused: ??? It's a well known fact that people who have switched to the Whiteline bushings report a night and day difference in steering feel. That's not too hard to understand.
:confused:[/QUOTE]
I don't think it will mean much for the car's competitiveness in STU, that's all... it'd be nice if they were legal in ST* though, so that I can finally try them.
:confused:[/QUOTE]
I don't think it will mean much for the car's competitiveness in STU, that's all... it'd be nice if they were legal in ST* though, so that I can finally try them.
| DrBiggly | 07-19-2005 12:13 AM |
[QUOTE=MrDestructo]Why the :confused: ??? It's a well known fact that people who have switched to the Whiteline bushings report a night and day difference in steering feel. That's not too hard to understand.
:confused:[/QUOTE]
It feels nice, but for time where it counts it really matters very little. ButtDyno is right on in his comment. I had them in when changing my car prep from SM to STX last year and when they were gone I honestly didn't really miss them. At the most, they might mean a few thousandths. :)
-Biggly
:confused:[/QUOTE]
It feels nice, but for time where it counts it really matters very little. ButtDyno is right on in his comment. I had them in when changing my car prep from SM to STX last year and when they were gone I honestly didn't really miss them. At the most, they might mean a few thousandths. :)
-Biggly
| ChrisW | 07-19-2005 12:24 AM |
Before I traded my STI for my EVO, I let Navid (the current driver running away with ESP in the nationals) drive my STI after he had been flogging this poor EVO.
So on the same course, same weather, in fun runs, Navid drove the hell out of my poor ole STI but could never come within a second of his best time in the EVO.
At the time, both the EVO and the STI were factory stock, running the factory rubber. Navid's commented on the vagueness in the STI steering ('04 STI) and brakes. The EVO's brakes and steering provid much more feedback than the STI.
My only contribution to this is to say that the EVO is easier to driver faster than the STI. You do not have to learn around the center diff, and the turn in capability of the EVO is nothing short of telepathic compared to the STI.
I don't mean for this to be flame bait because I do miss the torque, but in many ways I think the EVO is the better autox car. that is why I own one.
Both cars are very capable. You really can't go wrong with either one. It is just a matter of choosing the car that suites your driving style.
So on the same course, same weather, in fun runs, Navid drove the hell out of my poor ole STI but could never come within a second of his best time in the EVO.
At the time, both the EVO and the STI were factory stock, running the factory rubber. Navid's commented on the vagueness in the STI steering ('04 STI) and brakes. The EVO's brakes and steering provid much more feedback than the STI.
My only contribution to this is to say that the EVO is easier to driver faster than the STI. You do not have to learn around the center diff, and the turn in capability of the EVO is nothing short of telepathic compared to the STI.
I don't mean for this to be flame bait because I do miss the torque, but in many ways I think the EVO is the better autox car. that is why I own one.
Both cars are very capable. You really can't go wrong with either one. It is just a matter of choosing the car that suites your driving style.
| makofoto | 07-19-2005 01:41 AM |
Our local top STX driver, Jeff Barco ... 2nd to National STX ProSolo Champ Josh Sortor at a couple of National Tour events out here earlier this year ... drove a stock EVO as an instructor at one of our recent events ... after he had done his three race runs. In one lap he was over a second faster with the stock Evo over his fastest STX WRX time ... and his WRX is a VERY WELL prepped STX car. He was very impressed with the stock EVO's handling. Jeff's STX is usually with in 2 seconds of the top STU times ... a very popular class out here ... currently being led by an EVO.
I did a couple of laps with a fairly stock EVO with oem tires this weekend. Compared to my mildly prepped SM WRX Wagon ... it was very sloppy, leaned a ton, power came on with a bang while my more powerful WRX has very linear power. Compared to a stock WRX/STI ... I don't think it has as much understeer. The front in tucks in pretty nicely. I would still buy an STI over an EVO ... and turn it into a STU car ... but the new 2.5 WRX might become the STU car to beat. :-)
I did a couple of laps with a fairly stock EVO with oem tires this weekend. Compared to my mildly prepped SM WRX Wagon ... it was very sloppy, leaned a ton, power came on with a bang while my more powerful WRX has very linear power. Compared to a stock WRX/STI ... I don't think it has as much understeer. The front in tucks in pretty nicely. I would still buy an STI over an EVO ... and turn it into a STU car ... but the new 2.5 WRX might become the STU car to beat. :-)
| KC | 07-19-2005 07:39 AM |
[QUOTE]was over a second faster with the stock Evo over his fastest STX WRX time ... and his WRX is a VERY WELL prepped STX car.[/QUOTE]
Mako... you can't comapre a WRX to an EVO. Not a fair comparison and the EVO will take it every time.
Mako... you can't comapre a WRX to an EVO. Not a fair comparison and the EVO will take it every time.
| makofoto | 07-19-2005 11:34 AM |
... of course you can make the comparison ... you just have to keep in mind what you're comparing ... and figure that in. During Fun Runs Jeff ended up beating his single EVO lap by a good couple of seconds. No definitive data ... just pointing out that the EVO is pretty darn good ... as we all know. Jeff use to beat the local STU cars ... now that they are being developed ... they are occasionally up to two second a lap faster then his STX car on our typically fast courses. Two events ago he still had a faster time then the winning STU car. It's always an exciting group ... STU and STX run together ... but there are so many of them now that they will probably have to split them up.
| BHawk | 07-19-2005 07:08 PM |
[QUOTE=Tremec]
This past friday I want to a HPDE event at Roebling Road in Savannah put on by seat time. There was an EVO that ran but had to quit after the 2nd session because his front diff went out.[/QUOTE]
That's very interesting because the last track day I did at Roebling a blue by you 2003 Lancer EVO destroyed his front diff too.
This past friday I want to a HPDE event at Roebling Road in Savannah put on by seat time. There was an EVO that ran but had to quit after the 2nd session because his front diff went out.[/QUOTE]
That's very interesting because the last track day I did at Roebling a blue by you 2003 Lancer EVO destroyed his front diff too.
| BHawk | 07-19-2005 07:12 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]Before I traded my STI for my EVO, I let Navid (the current driver running away with ESP in the nationals) drive my STI after he had been flogging this poor EVO.
So on the same course, same weather, in fun runs, Navid drove the hell out of my poor ole STI but could never come within a second of his best time in the EVO.
At the time, both the EVO and the STI were factory stock, running the factory rubber. Navid's commented on the vagueness in the STI steering ('04 STI) and brakes. The EVO's brakes and steering provid much more feedback than the STI.
My only contribution to this is to say that the EVO is easier to driver faster than the STI. You do not have to learn around the center diff, and the turn in capability of the EVO is nothing short of telepathic compared to the STI.
I don't mean for this to be flame bait because I do miss the torque, but in many ways I think the EVO is the better autox car. that is why I own one.
Both cars are very capable. You really can't go wrong with either one. It is just a matter of choosing the car that suites your driving style.[/QUOTE]
Nothing comes from the factory perfect just the way I want it. Between the EVO and the STi I thought and still think the STi is the cheaper one to build into what I want.
So on the same course, same weather, in fun runs, Navid drove the hell out of my poor ole STI but could never come within a second of his best time in the EVO.
At the time, both the EVO and the STI were factory stock, running the factory rubber. Navid's commented on the vagueness in the STI steering ('04 STI) and brakes. The EVO's brakes and steering provid much more feedback than the STI.
My only contribution to this is to say that the EVO is easier to driver faster than the STI. You do not have to learn around the center diff, and the turn in capability of the EVO is nothing short of telepathic compared to the STI.
I don't mean for this to be flame bait because I do miss the torque, but in many ways I think the EVO is the better autox car. that is why I own one.
Both cars are very capable. You really can't go wrong with either one. It is just a matter of choosing the car that suites your driving style.[/QUOTE]
Nothing comes from the factory perfect just the way I want it. Between the EVO and the STi I thought and still think the STi is the cheaper one to build into what I want.
| UltimateLurker | 07-19-2005 09:00 PM |
Give me an EVO with an STi engine and I'll be truly as happy as I can be with a 4 door.
| TecHniKa | 07-19-2005 09:08 PM |
Fu<k evo STi kill all hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| Butt Dyno | 07-19-2005 09:35 PM |
There was a Car and Driver article where they put the same tires on both cars (Kumho MX IIRC) and the numbers were MUCH closer. And that was a 2005 STi vs a 2005 MR, not the regular Evo.
Just something for the "stock vs stock" comparisons :)
Just something for the "stock vs stock" comparisons :)
| Skyline | 07-19-2005 09:54 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno]There was a Car and Driver article where they put the same tires on both cars (Kumho MX IIRC) and the numbers were MUCH closer. And that was a 2005 STi vs a 2005 MR, not the regular Evo.
Just something for the "stock vs stock" comparisons :)[/QUOTE]
Much closer, and in some cases, the STi was better. Here's a link to the article.
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9052&page_number=1[/url]
Just something for the "stock vs stock" comparisons :)[/QUOTE]
Much closer, and in some cases, the STi was better. Here's a link to the article.
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9052&page_number=1[/url]
| MattNJ2.8 | 07-19-2005 10:31 PM |
or you could just end this stupid thread with :
[B]"Go buy whatever car [I]you [/I]like more"[/B]
[B]"Go buy whatever car [I]you [/I]like more"[/B]
| Impreza01 | 07-20-2005 03:32 AM |
[QUOTE=MattNJ2.8]or you could just end this stupid thread with :
[B]"Go buy whatever car [I]you [/I]like more"[/B][/QUOTE]
should be "go buy whatever car matches your driving style."
[B]"Go buy whatever car [I]you [/I]like more"[/B][/QUOTE]
should be "go buy whatever car matches your driving style."
| KC | 07-20-2005 09:47 AM |
Mustang!
Camaro!
Mustang!
Camaro!
Mustang!
Camaro!
Ahh a new age dawns. :)
Camaro!
Mustang!
Camaro!
Mustang!
Camaro!
Ahh a new age dawns. :)
| makofoto | 07-20-2005 12:30 PM |
Thanks for the Car & Driver link ... interesting ... didn't realize that the EVO can put so much torque to the front wheels ...
| Thumper23 | 07-20-2005 12:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Skyline]Much closer, and in some cases, the STi was better. Here's a link to the article.
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9052&page_number=1[/url][/QUOTE]
that article shows them pretty damn equal
once again, it all seems to be personal preference
not like 90% of the people (including me) can drive my STi to the limit anyways
[url]http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=4&article_id=9052&page_number=1[/url][/QUOTE]
that article shows them pretty damn equal
once again, it all seems to be personal preference
not like 90% of the people (including me) can drive my STi to the limit anyways
| makofoto | 07-20-2005 12:56 PM |
... I can drive one over the limit ... :lol:
| Tremec | 07-20-2005 09:49 PM |
I think they are both nice cars, but my experience with the Mitsu has not left me feeling they are as reliable for long term abuse as some other cars are. Sure any AWD car built is hard on the tranny, clutch and driveline but there have been other symptoms too. They seem a little high strung, it may be the fact that there are so many cheap parts for them that they are not modded with the quality that you find in parts for other cars that come at a higher premium.
| Tremec | 07-20-2005 09:52 PM |
If you look at the bottom of the C&D article you will find a link to their supercar test and you will find that the audi based Lambo AWD smoked the clutch in short order durring the testing.
| ChrisW | 07-20-2005 11:32 PM |
[QUOTE=Tremec]I think they are both nice cars, but my experience with the Mitsu has not left me feeling they are as reliable for long term abuse as some other cars are. Sure any AWD car built is hard on the tranny, clutch and driveline but there have been other symptoms too. They seem a little high strung, it may be the fact that there are so many cheap parts for them that they are not modded with the quality that you find in parts for other cars that come at a higher premium.[/QUOTE]
that makes no sense what so ever... The cost of the modded parts is the same price as what you find for the STI, as for the modding bit... The EVO's 4G63 motor has been around for almost 20 years. It has a cast iron block that is proven to handle well over 500 crank hp on the stock internals.
both cars are a little high strung, with the STI your always shifting, with the EVO you have to pay attention to your steering inputs, [i]always[/i]. Choose your poison..
that makes no sense what so ever... The cost of the modded parts is the same price as what you find for the STI, as for the modding bit... The EVO's 4G63 motor has been around for almost 20 years. It has a cast iron block that is proven to handle well over 500 crank hp on the stock internals.
both cars are a little high strung, with the STI your always shifting, with the EVO you have to pay attention to your steering inputs, [i]always[/i]. Choose your poison..
| plokivos | 07-21-2005 05:37 AM |
yeh, evo's have a lot of understeer.
you guys do know that evo's fwd based awd, when you guys have the banna engine (split a good engine down the middle= boxer engine), the neutral setup.
Compare to STi, it comes with less electronics on 03 04 evos than STI. i have the 03.
Depending on course STi could do very well and evo could do well.
it seems that Evo's like Porsche auto-x course that has a long slalom and bit of straight away. But if the course is very tight, it could do as well.
aluminum suspension really does help i think (can't notice it or feel it but i know it's doing something) as well as having a very sharp steering and crisp road feedback.
but the understeer is sometimes a headache as well as the turbo lag (which is more apparent in modded cars in SM classes.)
There are very good STI drivers, I have to agree, but with some experience and R compound tires, Evo's could very much run most of STI drivers down even with lack of experience.
you guys do know that evo's fwd based awd, when you guys have the banna engine (split a good engine down the middle= boxer engine), the neutral setup.
Compare to STi, it comes with less electronics on 03 04 evos than STI. i have the 03.
Depending on course STi could do very well and evo could do well.
it seems that Evo's like Porsche auto-x course that has a long slalom and bit of straight away. But if the course is very tight, it could do as well.
aluminum suspension really does help i think (can't notice it or feel it but i know it's doing something) as well as having a very sharp steering and crisp road feedback.
but the understeer is sometimes a headache as well as the turbo lag (which is more apparent in modded cars in SM classes.)
There are very good STI drivers, I have to agree, but with some experience and R compound tires, Evo's could very much run most of STI drivers down even with lack of experience.
| Tremec | 07-21-2005 07:25 AM |
I knew my statement would liven things up :devil:
| IMPORTIMAGE | 07-21-2005 07:38 AM |
Auto-x'ing depends alot more on the driver then the car, since the 2 cars are very similar stock. It depends on whats done to the cars, as the evo is not very fast stock, but with fewer mods you get more results. But I think the STI is catching up fairly quick! the real problem is that 390-400whp is very attainable on a stock evo turbo, BUT to get anywhere near that on an sti you need to upgrade the turbo, and that costs more money. its a debate that could go on forever, both cars are great, its just a game of preference.
| asquaredrex | 07-21-2005 09:29 AM |
I'm impressed to see that this thread has legs, but I'll toss in a vote for the Evo. The STi just feels like a muscle car and it feels sloppy in corners. The Evo feels much tighter and better balanced. The best thing about it is the intital turn-in bite. The car feels so sure-footed and confidence inspiring, and it doesn't seem to have any bad habits. It's such a fun car to drive on a road course.
I, like most people here, could see all the numbers in the world, but the seat-of-the-pants-o-meter never lies...
I, like most people here, could see all the numbers in the world, but the seat-of-the-pants-o-meter never lies...
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