| mnavarro | 08-05-2006 02:08 AM |
Legacy GT vs. STI on the track
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I've heard from somebody who tunes race cars who says that the legacy gt handles better than the sti around the track. Maybe it's the extra wheel base, but what do you guys think?
| kettsupp | 08-05-2006 02:21 AM |
hmm interesting....
| psg | 08-05-2006 02:24 AM |
Not possible in stock form, at the very least. The STI has a much more aggressive tire than the Legacy GT's stock Bridgestone RE-92's.
| veightkiller | 08-05-2006 02:28 AM |
subscribe.
| Highway Drifter | 08-05-2006 02:35 AM |
hmm...this might be interesting...or a flame war...either way i'm doin like ^ this guy
| ralli-tart | 08-05-2006 02:36 AM |
(scratches head) oh...i know this, was it:
GT = multilink VS STI = inverted struts
GT = multilink VS STI = inverted struts
| mnavarro | 08-05-2006 02:50 AM |
let's say tires are equal....
| surfer.tech | 08-05-2006 02:51 AM |
toss in the spec b. vs the STi..
| shemoves | 08-05-2006 03:03 AM |
I've been behind a legacy while in my STi during a canyon run...was very impressed with its handling capabilities. (Not saying one's better or worse.)
| Mykl | 08-05-2006 03:17 AM |
Does the LGT have front and center LSD's? I assume it at least has a rear LSD.
Also, due to the STi's brakes I think the STi may have a bit more endurance around a track than the LGT. The LGT should experience fade a bit earlier.
Also, due to the STi's brakes I think the STi may have a bit more endurance around a track than the LGT. The LGT should experience fade a bit earlier.
| Kostamojen | 08-05-2006 03:35 AM |
I like the steering feel of 05+ legacies, but are we talking stock vs. stock or full-on race-prep?
| mnavarro | 08-05-2006 03:38 AM |
Both Race cars. The track prepped LGT had front /rear diffs, similar brakes. coilovers. STI Had better tires. Power was a lot lower in the LGT. Drivers were professional. The LGT had equal or better times.
| REX8 | 08-05-2006 09:06 AM |
[QUOTE=psg]Not possible in stock form, at the very least. The STI has a much more aggressive tire than the Legacy GT's stock Bridgestone RE-92's.[/QUOTE]
He said handling...not grip/speed.
He said handling...not grip/speed.
| TexWrex | 08-05-2006 02:44 PM |
My wife and I have an '04 STI and an '06 Spec B and have autocrossed both eight or so times this year. When both were stock- the STI won. When both were full catless exhaust, AccessPort, and Whiteline sways- the STI won. Soon both will have Swift springs and the SpecB will be on 17x8s while the STI is on 17x7s and my bet is the STI will still win. In autocross at least you just can't get over the power, gearing and weight differences when equally prepared. That said, we have both beaten STIs in the SpecB because we were better drivers. And they are both fun as hell to drive...
D
D
| silver04rs | 08-06-2006 12:37 AM |
isnt there some track prepped LGT on these forums? find some of there lap times at a certian track and then take the times of similary prepped STI
hopefully the drivers are of equal caliber and both know how to set up a car
hopefully the drivers are of equal caliber and both know how to set up a car
| nhluhr | 08-06-2006 12:41 AM |
[QUOTE=silver04rs]isnt there some track prepped LGT on these forums?[/QUOTE]xenonk has a very prepped LegGT
| Kostamojen | 08-06-2006 12:52 AM |
[QUOTE=mnavarro]Both Race cars. The track prepped LGT had front /rear diffs, similar brakes. coilovers. STI Had better tires. Power was a lot lower in the LGT. Drivers were professional. The LGT had equal or better times.[/QUOTE]
Well considering the weight of the two cars is simular, I might have to go with the legacy if it is prepped how you say it was...
Well considering the weight of the two cars is simular, I might have to go with the legacy if it is prepped how you say it was...
| MPME | 08-06-2006 07:46 PM |
[QUOTE=mnavarro]I've heard from somebody who tunes race cars who says that the legacy gt handles better than the sti around the track. Maybe it's the extra wheel base, but what do you guys think?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. This sounds entirely made up. Can you provide any names? Who's the "somebody that tunes race cars," who drove both cars, etc?
Yeah. This sounds entirely made up. Can you provide any names? Who's the "somebody that tunes race cars," who drove both cars, etc?
| clawdnb | 08-06-2006 07:53 PM |
[QUOTE=TexWrex]My wife and I have an '04 STI and an '06 Spec B and have autocrossed both eight or so times this year. When both were stock- the STI won. When both were full catless exhaust, AccessPort, and Whiteline sways- the STI won. Soon both will have Swift springs and the SpecB will be on 17x8s while the STI is on 17x7s and my bet is the STI will still win. In autocross at least you just can't get over the power, gearing and weight differences when equally prepared. That said, we have both beaten STIs in the SpecB because we were better drivers. And they are both fun as hell to drive...
D[/QUOTE]
i brought my legacyGT (stu class) to autocross a few times now and have been within .5 of the sti's in my class everytime, and on one day beat all of them by almost more than a second...but thats just me having a better day at the track than the sti's i guess....and you are rite that the sti should win and has undeniable advantages unless a legacy has some real work done on it since the sti comes so overloaded perfomance wise for such an event in its stock form
now, what id like to see is a legacy chasis and impreza chasis both with the exact same motor, tranny, brakes and somehow make them the same curbweight... and then go all out with the suspension on both , throw them on some r-compounds and do a comparison then
[url]http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i77/binarystorm/?action=view¤t=MOV01364.flv[/url]
heres a vid of my car running today, wasnt my best day out but the legacy seems to keep up pretty close to the sti's that are in its class
D[/QUOTE]
i brought my legacyGT (stu class) to autocross a few times now and have been within .5 of the sti's in my class everytime, and on one day beat all of them by almost more than a second...but thats just me having a better day at the track than the sti's i guess....and you are rite that the sti should win and has undeniable advantages unless a legacy has some real work done on it since the sti comes so overloaded perfomance wise for such an event in its stock form
now, what id like to see is a legacy chasis and impreza chasis both with the exact same motor, tranny, brakes and somehow make them the same curbweight... and then go all out with the suspension on both , throw them on some r-compounds and do a comparison then
[url]http://s69.photobucket.com/albums/i77/binarystorm/?action=view¤t=MOV01364.flv[/url]
heres a vid of my car running today, wasnt my best day out but the legacy seems to keep up pretty close to the sti's that are in its class
| Paisan | 08-06-2006 08:35 PM |
I was reading that the G35 handled better on track than the 350z which are essentially the same cars. They said the G35 handled better due to the longer wheelbase. Could be similar situation with the LGT v. STi or at least the reasoning behind why one might think that.
-mike
-mike
| mnavarro | 08-06-2006 09:08 PM |
[QUOTE=MPME]Yeah. This sounds entirely made up. Can you provide any names? Who's the "somebody that tunes race cars," who drove both cars, etc?[/QUOTE]
Well you know the tuner.... and I like to make stuff up :rolleyes: Let's just say two programs that hit the same track like infineon, produced very similar numbers and one had a lot more power. Both cars actually race, but the legacy gt had a lot less power and produced similar results.
Well you know the tuner.... and I like to make stuff up :rolleyes: Let's just say two programs that hit the same track like infineon, produced very similar numbers and one had a lot more power. Both cars actually race, but the legacy gt had a lot less power and produced similar results.
| Swine | 08-06-2006 09:10 PM |
Yeah, in order to keep this fair...lets keep the two cars indentical in set-up...the only change would be the chassis with diferrent length and width.
| mnavarro | 08-06-2006 09:11 PM |
[QUOTE=Swine]Yeah, in order to keep this fair...lets keep the two cars indentical in set-up...the only change would be the chassis with diferrent length and width.[/QUOTE]
Exactly...
Exactly...
| mnavarro | 08-06-2006 09:13 PM |
[QUOTE=clawdnb]
now, what id like to see is a legacy chasis and impreza chasis both with the exact same motor, tranny, brakes and somehow make them the same curbweight... and then go all out with the suspension on both , throw them on some r-compounds and do a comparison then
[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm talking about and is the premise of the thread... but I don't care about curb weight as much.
now, what id like to see is a legacy chasis and impreza chasis both with the exact same motor, tranny, brakes and somehow make them the same curbweight... and then go all out with the suspension on both , throw them on some r-compounds and do a comparison then
[/QUOTE]
That's what I'm talking about and is the premise of the thread... but I don't care about curb weight as much.
| MPME | 08-07-2006 12:06 PM |
OK--i've read some other posts on NASIOC where someone that has little if any professional experience makes claims to know what car is better than the other, but beyond an amatuer's input, I've yet to see/hear any valid feedback.
In that thread, there were so many data points and facts missing that would prevent anyone from drawing a conclusion, muchless forming a credible opinion, I couldn't stop laughing.
As I've not worked with a proper road racing LGT to compare to an STi, I can't opine.
From what I know of the '07/'08 STi, none of this debate will matter anyways...
In that thread, there were so many data points and facts missing that would prevent anyone from drawing a conclusion, muchless forming a credible opinion, I couldn't stop laughing.
As I've not worked with a proper road racing LGT to compare to an STi, I can't opine.
From what I know of the '07/'08 STi, none of this debate will matter anyways...
| mnavarro | 08-07-2006 01:25 PM |
yes... because it's based on a shortened legacy platform, right?
| RobY | 09-08-2006 10:09 PM |
GOTO racing owns Gary Sheehan's old fully prepped USTCC WRX and thier own GrandAM Legacy.
Heres a few quotes:
So, with the support of Subaru of America, GOTO has brought a new car into it�s stable for 2006, the Legacy GT. This stylish 4 door has already proven that it is no slouch, surprising the team in the initial testing with handling uncharacteristically light for a car it�s size, or even cars smaller! �Even though I know it weighs 250lbs more, it drives even lighter than the WRX. I wouldn�t change a thing�, remarked Brian Lock after his first test session at Infineon Raceway.
They went on to podium 2nd on the USTCC A1 Grand Prix at the Laguna Seca 0.5 seconds behind an EVO8 with significantly more power. Both the EVO8 and the Legacy seperated themselves from the pack by more than 6 seconds. The legacy was running BONE stock engine equipment with stock boost. The evo 8 piloted by Dave Brown also ran "stock boost" which I assume is 19 psi with a significantly larger turbo than the legacy.
The WRX also ran the race and its best lap was 10 seconds PER LAP behind the legacy GT.
[url]http://www.ustcc.com/results/06_03_12_laguna_race.html[/url]
GOTO has since pulled out of the USTCC to run the legacy full time in the GrandAM cup. Where they have been putting the hurt on mega funded factory teams in the ST class weighing around 2500-2800 lbs. All this with a stock motor no aero and a 3050lb race weight.
A little snippet from Pheonix note how it nicely passed on the inside of the Mazda RX-8's with the factory drivers including the ones they imported from japan. Then proceeded to post the fastest lap of the race. Unfortunately the pitstop took forever due to difficulties or they would have podiumed.
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/images/GOTOgacPIR.wmv[/url]
Refrences:
[url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30216[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/oldannounce.html[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com[/url]
Heres a few quotes:
So, with the support of Subaru of America, GOTO has brought a new car into it�s stable for 2006, the Legacy GT. This stylish 4 door has already proven that it is no slouch, surprising the team in the initial testing with handling uncharacteristically light for a car it�s size, or even cars smaller! �Even though I know it weighs 250lbs more, it drives even lighter than the WRX. I wouldn�t change a thing�, remarked Brian Lock after his first test session at Infineon Raceway.
They went on to podium 2nd on the USTCC A1 Grand Prix at the Laguna Seca 0.5 seconds behind an EVO8 with significantly more power. Both the EVO8 and the Legacy seperated themselves from the pack by more than 6 seconds. The legacy was running BONE stock engine equipment with stock boost. The evo 8 piloted by Dave Brown also ran "stock boost" which I assume is 19 psi with a significantly larger turbo than the legacy.
The WRX also ran the race and its best lap was 10 seconds PER LAP behind the legacy GT.
[url]http://www.ustcc.com/results/06_03_12_laguna_race.html[/url]
GOTO has since pulled out of the USTCC to run the legacy full time in the GrandAM cup. Where they have been putting the hurt on mega funded factory teams in the ST class weighing around 2500-2800 lbs. All this with a stock motor no aero and a 3050lb race weight.
A little snippet from Pheonix note how it nicely passed on the inside of the Mazda RX-8's with the factory drivers including the ones they imported from japan. Then proceeded to post the fastest lap of the race. Unfortunately the pitstop took forever due to difficulties or they would have podiumed.
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/images/GOTOgacPIR.wmv[/url]
Refrences:
[url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30216[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/oldannounce.html[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com[/url]
| RobY | 09-08-2006 10:44 PM |
More from ICY Racing also competing in the GrandAM with a WAGON!
Little snippets from Chris Lock from GOTO as well.
The GOTO crew, Joel Gat, ICY racing, DMS. Have all SUGGESTED that the LGT chasis is better than the Impreza chasis. Were talking pro racers here not weekend warriors who think they are clicking off faster lap times by sliding about.
[url]http://legacygt.com/forums/motorspor...guna-seca.html[/url]
"Originally Posted by RobY:
Can you comment on the driving dynamic diffrences between the Impreza Chasis and the Legacy Chasis.
I also cannot BELEIVE the homogolation rules for the EVO MR. The car weighs almost the same as yours and gets to run 19 PSI of boost? on a much larger turbo?
I would LOVE to know how that EVER happened. You guys already murdered the pack by more than 6 seconds it wont be long till peeps start complaining.
"Yeah actually. I took three 20 minute sessions at our test session right after driving the wrx for a day. It was not at ALL what I expected!
For one, the legacy seems to have a much more positive front end. I was expecting the longer wheel base to push more, but was pleasantly surprised by how the legacy would bite into a corner with less roll than the legacy[sic] (WRX). The tighter steering rack also reinforced that feeling of a grippy front end.
Second, the rear was alot more active than I expected. I had an image of the multi-link rear acting to make a more compliant rear, but it was easy to coax rotation out of the car, on turn in and when exiting on the power. But I guess I should keep in mind the HUGE hotchkiss sway bar we added. I am sure that added to this effect alot.
Torque was way better, though the power dies in the high RPM. While the legacy has more power overall, you need to be on top of where you shift. Boost starts to drop to much farther than 5700 or so.
All in all, the legacy is actually more fun to drive than the WRX. Dare I say, more of a drivers car...." ~Chris Lock~
Mind you they are comparing to the Shenan Motor Racing WRX which is FULLY speced with custom diffs.
Heres one from ICY:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13957489&postcount=41[/url]
...The Subaru Legacy GT showed that it was a serious contender and placed third in the first session right out of the box, and then first overall in the second session in the rain!!!...
...Although forced to run almost 500 pounds heavier than the other cars in the class, the Legacy GT's symmetrical AWD and turbo charged boxer engine, proved up to the task and in the rain the car was just short of spectacular....
...We had a lot of fun pointing out to interested fans that this legacy runs a completely stock drive line, with stock boost, (Engine, trans and differential units), Stock brake system and ABS with racing pads... Stock suspension bushings and pickup points with aftermarket JRZ shocks and springs and the stock exhaust system with mufflers... We did ask GAC officials to allow an aftermarket sound system so that we could hear our car over the noise of other cars!!!...
__________________
Better camber control, suspension geometry, roll resistance of the multilink, less tendancy to understeer are the advantages. It seems that the legacy does not need advanced diffrentials to make up time.
You asked and you shall recieve... the Legacy Seems to have pretty good luck so far showing up the seasoned teams in big time nationally televised factory sponsored pro racing on thier virgin runs.
Prepped vs Prepped the Legacy seems like a winner.
This topic seems to come up every other week... I figure I would throw in some factual information and insight on race teams that actually race both prepped cars in a professional venue with lap times to back it up. However I have a feeling this issue will never be put to rest.
Little snippets from Chris Lock from GOTO as well.
The GOTO crew, Joel Gat, ICY racing, DMS. Have all SUGGESTED that the LGT chasis is better than the Impreza chasis. Were talking pro racers here not weekend warriors who think they are clicking off faster lap times by sliding about.
[url]http://legacygt.com/forums/motorspor...guna-seca.html[/url]
"Originally Posted by RobY:
Can you comment on the driving dynamic diffrences between the Impreza Chasis and the Legacy Chasis.
I also cannot BELEIVE the homogolation rules for the EVO MR. The car weighs almost the same as yours and gets to run 19 PSI of boost? on a much larger turbo?
I would LOVE to know how that EVER happened. You guys already murdered the pack by more than 6 seconds it wont be long till peeps start complaining.
"Yeah actually. I took three 20 minute sessions at our test session right after driving the wrx for a day. It was not at ALL what I expected!
For one, the legacy seems to have a much more positive front end. I was expecting the longer wheel base to push more, but was pleasantly surprised by how the legacy would bite into a corner with less roll than the legacy[sic] (WRX). The tighter steering rack also reinforced that feeling of a grippy front end.
Second, the rear was alot more active than I expected. I had an image of the multi-link rear acting to make a more compliant rear, but it was easy to coax rotation out of the car, on turn in and when exiting on the power. But I guess I should keep in mind the HUGE hotchkiss sway bar we added. I am sure that added to this effect alot.
Torque was way better, though the power dies in the high RPM. While the legacy has more power overall, you need to be on top of where you shift. Boost starts to drop to much farther than 5700 or so.
All in all, the legacy is actually more fun to drive than the WRX. Dare I say, more of a drivers car...." ~Chris Lock~
Mind you they are comparing to the Shenan Motor Racing WRX which is FULLY speced with custom diffs.
Heres one from ICY:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13957489&postcount=41[/url]
...The Subaru Legacy GT showed that it was a serious contender and placed third in the first session right out of the box, and then first overall in the second session in the rain!!!...
...Although forced to run almost 500 pounds heavier than the other cars in the class, the Legacy GT's symmetrical AWD and turbo charged boxer engine, proved up to the task and in the rain the car was just short of spectacular....
...We had a lot of fun pointing out to interested fans that this legacy runs a completely stock drive line, with stock boost, (Engine, trans and differential units), Stock brake system and ABS with racing pads... Stock suspension bushings and pickup points with aftermarket JRZ shocks and springs and the stock exhaust system with mufflers... We did ask GAC officials to allow an aftermarket sound system so that we could hear our car over the noise of other cars!!!...
__________________
Better camber control, suspension geometry, roll resistance of the multilink, less tendancy to understeer are the advantages. It seems that the legacy does not need advanced diffrentials to make up time.
You asked and you shall recieve... the Legacy Seems to have pretty good luck so far showing up the seasoned teams in big time nationally televised factory sponsored pro racing on thier virgin runs.
Prepped vs Prepped the Legacy seems like a winner.
This topic seems to come up every other week... I figure I would throw in some factual information and insight on race teams that actually race both prepped cars in a professional venue with lap times to back it up. However I have a feeling this issue will never be put to rest.
| STi-MAN | 09-08-2006 11:14 PM |
^ you do understand that hes comparing a wrx to a legacy. 2 different animals.
| RobY | 09-08-2006 11:24 PM |
Chasis vs Chasis the WRX chasis when race prepped is basicly identical to the STi chasis. An STI is a WRX with a more powerful motor better diffs and a stiffer suspension.
When you weld in a rollcage and strip the car out and replace the suspension with a full race suspension, and add custom race diffs the diffrence is pretty much moot.
Gary Sheehan's WRX has fully speced race differentials and a full DMS suspension as well as a built engine I believe.
When you weld in a rollcage and strip the car out and replace the suspension with a full race suspension, and add custom race diffs the diffrence is pretty much moot.
Gary Sheehan's WRX has fully speced race differentials and a full DMS suspension as well as a built engine I believe.
| mnavarro | 09-08-2006 11:33 PM |
Good info on this thread... it's probably why the next wrx/sti will be based on a shortened legacy platform.
| STi-MAN | 09-08-2006 11:42 PM |
[QUOTE=RobY;15182083]Chasis vs Chasis the WRX chasis when race prepped is basicly identical to the STi chasis. An STI is a WRX with a more powerful motor better diffs and a stiffer suspension.
When you weld in a rollcage and strip the car out and replace the suspension with a full race suspension, and add custom race diffs the diffrence is pretty much moot.
Gary Sheehan's WRX has fully speced race differentials and a full DMS suspension as well as a built engine I believe.[/QUOTE]
I dont know fully the details of the ustcc rulebook. but if your basing your your facts on lap times then you have to know that the wrx has to use a stock motor (internally that is). Whether they can use the 2.5 now or not, i dont know. Also they fact that they have to use the wrx transmission which cannot be modified. This makes me wonder if they can change the material which are used in the control arms and lateral links of the wrx to the aluminum bits found on the sti. I dont believe these are really good enough examples of whether the sti or legacy are better cars. Maybe if they had a STi race prepped car for ustcc, it would be easier to judge. I personally dont know which is "better" im just giving my opinion.
When you weld in a rollcage and strip the car out and replace the suspension with a full race suspension, and add custom race diffs the diffrence is pretty much moot.
Gary Sheehan's WRX has fully speced race differentials and a full DMS suspension as well as a built engine I believe.[/QUOTE]
I dont know fully the details of the ustcc rulebook. but if your basing your your facts on lap times then you have to know that the wrx has to use a stock motor (internally that is). Whether they can use the 2.5 now or not, i dont know. Also they fact that they have to use the wrx transmission which cannot be modified. This makes me wonder if they can change the material which are used in the control arms and lateral links of the wrx to the aluminum bits found on the sti. I dont believe these are really good enough examples of whether the sti or legacy are better cars. Maybe if they had a STi race prepped car for ustcc, it would be easier to judge. I personally dont know which is "better" im just giving my opinion.
| RobY | 09-08-2006 11:45 PM |
Perhaps sombody can chime in that better knows the homologation rules for USTCC and the full details...
I am pretty sure they are definately allowed to run race diffs. I know that when Gary sold his WRX it came with 2 engines. I beleive one was built for reliability.
Perhaps Gary can Chime in. He now drives for GOTO in the LegacyGT.
ICY also has its own fleet of race prepped STI's Chuck Hemminson is thier Legacy Wagon driver he has extensive experience with the STi as well as he piloted one to the championship win in the SCCA T2 class.
It would be great if we can get some pro-opinions
I am pretty sure they are definately allowed to run race diffs. I know that when Gary sold his WRX it came with 2 engines. I beleive one was built for reliability.
Perhaps Gary can Chime in. He now drives for GOTO in the LegacyGT.
ICY also has its own fleet of race prepped STI's Chuck Hemminson is thier Legacy Wagon driver he has extensive experience with the STi as well as he piloted one to the championship win in the SCCA T2 class.
It would be great if we can get some pro-opinions
| STi-MAN | 09-08-2006 11:50 PM |
[QUOTE=RobY;15182238]Perhaps sombody can chime in that better knows the homologation rules for USTCC and the full details...
I am pretty sure they are definately allowed to run race diffs.[/QUOTE]
From what i read of the rules, yes they can run any type of diff. but a race differential is not going to make up for the power difference and the gear ratio differences.
I am pretty sure they are definately allowed to run race diffs.[/QUOTE]
From what i read of the rules, yes they can run any type of diff. but a race differential is not going to make up for the power difference and the gear ratio differences.
| RobY | 09-08-2006 11:55 PM |
It wont, but what does the engine and gear ratios have to do with the chasis?
How does power make the diffrence...
The legacy was made to run its small stock turbo through, its small top mount intercooler, with stock 13.5 psi of boost tapering off.
The EVO8 with a front mount intercooler, a turbo that flows 50 percent more, 19 psi of boost, allowed to run an exhaust probably had 80+ horsies on the legacy and only managed a 0.5 second lead that it almost lost in the end.
How does power make the diffrence...
The legacy was made to run its small stock turbo through, its small top mount intercooler, with stock 13.5 psi of boost tapering off.
The EVO8 with a front mount intercooler, a turbo that flows 50 percent more, 19 psi of boost, allowed to run an exhaust probably had 80+ horsies on the legacy and only managed a 0.5 second lead that it almost lost in the end.
| STi-MAN | 09-08-2006 11:57 PM |
[QUOTE=RobY;15182305]It wont, but the engine and gear ratios have to do with the chasis?[/QUOTE]
it has to do with the fact that your basing your asumption on laptimes of 2 cars that restricted to rules which might have the wrx as a disadvantage... it has nothing to do with which chasis is "better". Also the post says which is better an STI or a Legacy, which probably includes the power train and drivetrain which the ustcc wrx is probably not using(I dont know if they are or not).
it has to do with the fact that your basing your asumption on laptimes of 2 cars that restricted to rules which might have the wrx as a disadvantage... it has nothing to do with which chasis is "better". Also the post says which is better an STI or a Legacy, which probably includes the power train and drivetrain which the ustcc wrx is probably not using(I dont know if they are or not).
| STi-MAN | 09-09-2006 12:08 AM |
[QUOTE=RobY;15182305]How does power make the diffrence...
The legacy was made to run its small stock turbo through, its small top mount intercooler, with stock 13.5 psi of boost tapering off.
The EVO8 with a front mount intercooler, a turbo that flows 50 percent more, 19 psi of boost, allowed to run an exhaust probably had 80+ horsies on the legacy and only managed a 0.5 second lead that it almost lost in the end.[/QUOTE]
hmmm how does power make a difference?? I think you should think that question over. About the evo 8 being only 0.5 seconds ahead, I hear a good driver makes a big difference... also the sti is not even eligible in the ustcc acording to they're website.. so this is not a good example at all to base weather the legacy is a better track car then the sti.
The legacy was made to run its small stock turbo through, its small top mount intercooler, with stock 13.5 psi of boost tapering off.
The EVO8 with a front mount intercooler, a turbo that flows 50 percent more, 19 psi of boost, allowed to run an exhaust probably had 80+ horsies on the legacy and only managed a 0.5 second lead that it almost lost in the end.[/QUOTE]
hmmm how does power make a difference?? I think you should think that question over. About the evo 8 being only 0.5 seconds ahead, I hear a good driver makes a big difference... also the sti is not even eligible in the ustcc acording to they're website.. so this is not a good example at all to base weather the legacy is a better track car then the sti.
| RobY | 09-09-2006 12:13 AM |
I was being faceicous...
Dave Brown isnt exactly a NOOB. He was the USTCC champion the year before.
Dave Brown isnt exactly a NOOB. He was the USTCC champion the year before.
| SoutFL_9-2x | 09-09-2006 11:30 PM |
Diffs are great for AutoX. Road course, not needed as much, and actually can be slower. Example; Lotus Elise without LSD will lap faster than one with. Lotus begrudginly began offering LSD at the request of buyers who AutoX.
Back on Subie topic....
Back on Subie topic....
| Kostamojen | 09-09-2006 11:58 PM |
[QUOTE=SoutFL_9-2x;15189464]Diffs are great for AutoX. Road course, not needed as much, and actually can be slower. Example; Lotus Elise without LSD will lap faster than one with. Lotus begrudginly began offering LSD at the request of buyers who AutoX.
[/QUOTE]
As someone who has had a subaru with no LSD's, later one with a rear LSD, and now one with a rear AND front LSD, im going to have to say that doesnt apply to Subarus...
Besides, for racing, LSD's will minimize tire wear, and in a long road race keep you from wearing out/over heating your tires as quickly which will make you quicker in the end.
[/QUOTE]
As someone who has had a subaru with no LSD's, later one with a rear LSD, and now one with a rear AND front LSD, im going to have to say that doesnt apply to Subarus...
Besides, for racing, LSD's will minimize tire wear, and in a long road race keep you from wearing out/over heating your tires as quickly which will make you quicker in the end.
| theicewall | 09-10-2006 12:36 AM |
Call Jeremy, I think we need a Top Gear episode and the Stig to sort this out. :)
the world may never know.
the world may never know.
| BOXRPWR | 09-10-2006 12:47 AM |
I can attest that the '05 LGT (and newer) platform is well suited for the race track. I absolutely LOVE taking my ride to Buttonwillow, Willow Springs and most recently Spring Mnt Raceway in NV.
Sure, she's a LONG way from stock. But that's my point. The LegacyGT takes well to performance mods and can track with the best of them....at least those in the 3,400 lb class.
I have easily passed prepped G35s, 350Zs, and played well with modded STIs and EVOs. I even caught and passed a Lotus Elise but the guy couldn't drive his way out of a McDonalds fast.
Great pleasure comes at the end of a hot session when more than a few drivers walk over and say "what have you done to that thing? It runs fast and sounds mean!"
Don't get me wrong. I realize there are plenty of cars and plenty of ways to make most any car walk another. My biggest frustration has come from fully track-prepped Civics that way out brake me and buzz around my backside through every corner. Only solice comes from waxing them on every decent straightaway.
Sure, she's a LONG way from stock. But that's my point. The LegacyGT takes well to performance mods and can track with the best of them....at least those in the 3,400 lb class.
I have easily passed prepped G35s, 350Zs, and played well with modded STIs and EVOs. I even caught and passed a Lotus Elise but the guy couldn't drive his way out of a McDonalds fast.
Great pleasure comes at the end of a hot session when more than a few drivers walk over and say "what have you done to that thing? It runs fast and sounds mean!"
Don't get me wrong. I realize there are plenty of cars and plenty of ways to make most any car walk another. My biggest frustration has come from fully track-prepped Civics that way out brake me and buzz around my backside through every corner. Only solice comes from waxing them on every decent straightaway.
| PA04STI | 09-10-2006 02:44 AM |
Yeah but that is a WRX. I would think the STis diffs would make up. Does the Legacy even have an active center diff let alone a rear and front like an STi????
Matt
[QUOTE=RobY;15181571]GOTO racing owns Gary Sheehan's old fully prepped USTCC WRX and thier own GrandAM Legacy.
Heres a few quotes:
So, with the support of Subaru of America, GOTO has brought a new car into it�s stable for 2006, the Legacy GT. This stylish 4 door has already proven that it is no slouch, surprising the team in the initial testing with handling uncharacteristically light for a car it�s size, or even cars smaller! �Even though I know it weighs 250lbs more, it drives even lighter than the WRX. I wouldn�t change a thing�, remarked Brian Lock after his first test session at Infineon Raceway.
They went on to podium 2nd on the USTCC A1 Grand Prix at the Laguna Seca 0.5 seconds behind an EVO8 with significantly more power. Both the EVO8 and the Legacy seperated themselves from the pack by more than 6 seconds. The legacy was running BONE stock engine equipment with stock boost. The evo 8 piloted by Dave Brown also ran "stock boost" which I assume is 19 psi with a significantly larger turbo than the legacy.
The WRX also ran the race and its best lap was 10 seconds PER LAP behind the legacy GT.
[url]http://www.ustcc.com/results/06_03_12_laguna_race.html[/url]
GOTO has since pulled out of the USTCC to run the legacy full time in the GrandAM cup. Where they have been putting the hurt on mega funded factory teams in the ST class weighing around 2500-2800 lbs. All this with a stock motor no aero and a 3050lb race weight.
A little snippet from Pheonix note how it nicely passed on the inside of the Mazda RX-8's with the factory drivers including the ones they imported from japan. Then proceeded to post the fastest lap of the race. Unfortunately the pitstop took forever due to difficulties or they would have podiumed.
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/images/GOTOgacPIR.wmv[/url]
Refrences:
[url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30216[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/oldannounce.html[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Matt
[QUOTE=RobY;15181571]GOTO racing owns Gary Sheehan's old fully prepped USTCC WRX and thier own GrandAM Legacy.
Heres a few quotes:
So, with the support of Subaru of America, GOTO has brought a new car into it�s stable for 2006, the Legacy GT. This stylish 4 door has already proven that it is no slouch, surprising the team in the initial testing with handling uncharacteristically light for a car it�s size, or even cars smaller! �Even though I know it weighs 250lbs more, it drives even lighter than the WRX. I wouldn�t change a thing�, remarked Brian Lock after his first test session at Infineon Raceway.
They went on to podium 2nd on the USTCC A1 Grand Prix at the Laguna Seca 0.5 seconds behind an EVO8 with significantly more power. Both the EVO8 and the Legacy seperated themselves from the pack by more than 6 seconds. The legacy was running BONE stock engine equipment with stock boost. The evo 8 piloted by Dave Brown also ran "stock boost" which I assume is 19 psi with a significantly larger turbo than the legacy.
The WRX also ran the race and its best lap was 10 seconds PER LAP behind the legacy GT.
[url]http://www.ustcc.com/results/06_03_12_laguna_race.html[/url]
GOTO has since pulled out of the USTCC to run the legacy full time in the GrandAM cup. Where they have been putting the hurt on mega funded factory teams in the ST class weighing around 2500-2800 lbs. All this with a stock motor no aero and a 3050lb race weight.
A little snippet from Pheonix note how it nicely passed on the inside of the Mazda RX-8's with the factory drivers including the ones they imported from japan. Then proceeded to post the fastest lap of the race. Unfortunately the pitstop took forever due to difficulties or they would have podiumed.
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/images/GOTOgacPIR.wmv[/url]
Refrences:
[url]http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30216[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com/oldannounce.html[/url]
[url]http://www.gotoracing.com[/url][/QUOTE]
| STi-MAN | 09-10-2006 03:50 AM |
[QUOTE=SoutFL_9-2x;15189464]Diffs are great for AutoX. Road course, not needed as much, and actually can be slower. Example; Lotus Elise without LSD will lap faster than one with. Lotus begrudginly began offering LSD at the request of buyers who AutoX.
Back on Subie topic....[/QUOTE]
I'd much rather have an LSD on a track car, putting down the power to the ground, then one with open diffs. Esp on an awd car.
Back on Subie topic....[/QUOTE]
I'd much rather have an LSD on a track car, putting down the power to the ground, then one with open diffs. Esp on an awd car.
| Impreza01 | 09-10-2006 04:32 AM |
[QUOTE=PA04STI;15190571]Yeah but that is a WRX. I would think the STis diffs would make up. Does the Legacy even have an active center diff let alone a rear and front like an STi????
Matt[/QUOTE]
In USTCC, cars are allowed LSDs. The WRX has front and rear Kaaz LSDs (it might have been switched to Quaife though), which are much better than the stock STI front and rear LSDs. It also had the Cusco center differential that, while doesn't provide LSD characteristics because it is open, provides a 35/65 torque split.
Matt[/QUOTE]
In USTCC, cars are allowed LSDs. The WRX has front and rear Kaaz LSDs (it might have been switched to Quaife though), which are much better than the stock STI front and rear LSDs. It also had the Cusco center differential that, while doesn't provide LSD characteristics because it is open, provides a 35/65 torque split.
| PA04STI | 09-10-2006 04:59 AM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01;15190950]In USTCC, cars are allowed LSDs. The WRX has front and rear Kaaz LSDs (it might have been switched to Quaife though), which are much better than the stock STI front and rear LSDs. It also had the Cusco center differential that, while doesn't provide LSD characteristics because it is open, provides a 35/65 torque split.[/QUOTE]
Then most likely the Legacy will have Quaife or Kaaz LSDs because the only reason the STi can't is because of the active center diff.
Matt
Then most likely the Legacy will have Quaife or Kaaz LSDs because the only reason the STi can't is because of the active center diff.
Matt
| Impreza01 | 09-10-2006 05:04 AM |
[QUOTE=PA04STI;15190996]Then most likely the Legacy will have Quaife or Kaaz LSDs because the only reason the STi can't is because of the active center diff.
Matt[/QUOTE]
:huh: The STI can use front and rear aftermarket LSDs. It has nothing to do with DCCD.
I think the point stands though, the Legacy does seem to have a well-sorted suspension setup. This is probably why Subaru is using a shortened Legacy platform and hopefully will keep the multilink rear end.
Matt[/QUOTE]
:huh: The STI can use front and rear aftermarket LSDs. It has nothing to do with DCCD.
I think the point stands though, the Legacy does seem to have a well-sorted suspension setup. This is probably why Subaru is using a shortened Legacy platform and hopefully will keep the multilink rear end.
| STi-MAN | 09-10-2006 05:12 AM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01;15191009]I think the point stands though, the Legacy does seem to have a well-sorted suspension setup. This is probably why Subaru is using a shortened Legacy platform and hopefully will keep the multilink rear end.[/QUOTE]
I dont kno if i've really seen that many Legacy's that are eating up the tracks, theres almost no mention of legacy's in japanese magazines.
I dont kno if i've really seen that many Legacy's that are eating up the tracks, theres almost no mention of legacy's in japanese magazines.
| D fresh | 09-10-2006 05:38 AM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN;15191026]I dont kno if i've really seen that many Legacy's that are eating up the tracks, theres almost no mention of legacy's in japanese magazines.[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
| PA04STI | 09-10-2006 06:21 AM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01;15191009]:huh: The STI can use front and rear aftermarket LSDs. It has nothing to do with DCCD.
I think the point stands though, the Legacy does seem to have a well-sorted suspension setup. This is probably why Subaru is using a shortened Legacy platform and hopefully will keep the multilink rear end.[/QUOTE]
I know Quaife doesn't I called them they said it was not worth making a Quaife for the STi. They said they will not make diffs for the Sti and that they are not compatable with the DCCd and active center diff.
Only option for STi I have seen are Cusco diffs
Matt
I think the point stands though, the Legacy does seem to have a well-sorted suspension setup. This is probably why Subaru is using a shortened Legacy platform and hopefully will keep the multilink rear end.[/QUOTE]
I know Quaife doesn't I called them they said it was not worth making a Quaife for the STi. They said they will not make diffs for the Sti and that they are not compatable with the DCCd and active center diff.
Only option for STi I have seen are Cusco diffs
Matt
| SoutFL_9-2x | 09-10-2006 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN;15190836]I'd much rather have an LSD on a track car, putting down the power to the ground, then one with open diffs. Esp on an awd car.[/QUOTE]
Depends on the car of course, along with point/shoot or momentum driving style, and overall vehicle output. My point is that LSD is not always better than an open diff., as many people believe it to be. :cool:
Depends on the car of course, along with point/shoot or momentum driving style, and overall vehicle output. My point is that LSD is not always better than an open diff., as many people believe it to be. :cool:
| STi-MAN | 09-10-2006 04:05 PM |
[QUOTE=SoutFL_9-2x;15193712]Depends on the car of course, along with point/shoot or momentum driving style, and overall vehicle output. My point is that LSD is not always better than an open diff., as many people believe it to be. :cool:[/QUOTE]
But would agree in most driving situation and tracks it would be better to have then not?
But would agree in most driving situation and tracks it would be better to have then not?
| SoutFL_9-2x | 09-10-2006 04:12 PM |
[QUOTE=STi-MAN;15193757]But would agree in most driving situation and tracks it would be better to have then not?[/QUOTE]
For most of us, yes.
For most of us, yes.
| LittleBlueGT | 09-10-2006 04:16 PM |
Just a side point about weight, but an 05 LGT (non-limited, which is not available anymore) like mine actually weighs a little bit less then an STI, about 15 kgs worth.
| RobY | 09-10-2006 05:25 PM |
^This is true. If you intend to build your car up start with a non-limited. They dont come with sunroofs or seat motors, and subtracts alot of other lux amenities that bring it down to less than the weight of a comparable STi.
Unfortunately the non-limiteds only were made for one year.
Unfortunately the non-limiteds only were made for one year.
| Jaxx | 09-11-2006 11:51 AM |
one thing that i don't think any one has mentioned is that the LGT has considerable heat soak related issues compaired to the sti the stock turbo (vf-40) is smaller than the 39 due to the reduced air flow (espically compaired to the 04-05)
at the cobb track day in june i expirenced this and christian logged it.. then released a new mapbased on it ...
after 3 or so laps the car started pulling timing/losing power
at the cobb track day in june i expirenced this and christian logged it.. then released a new mapbased on it ...
after 3 or so laps the car started pulling timing/losing power
| Kostamojen | 09-11-2006 12:37 PM |
Thats not that big of a problem... Just get a VF39 and STI intercooler :p
| 97whitesi | 09-13-2006 05:03 AM |
kosta: that requires an STi manifold too...
plus it wouldn't work with the LGT hood scoop.
plus it wouldn't work with the LGT hood scoop.
| silverlegacy | 09-17-2006 06:37 PM |
The sti swap is quite common, and it works.
Owning a LGT non-limited, I think that the suspension is much better than the wrx. In stock form the LGT drives much different than a WRX. I would have never considered one if I didn't go drive one. The non-limited weight the same as a STI and about 100lbs or so more than a WRX, but the car feels much lighter than it really is. The rear suspension takes bumps and feels more planted around a corner. With slight suspension mods (Sways, springs, and good tires) I feel it handles everybit as well as a STI. FYI curb weight on a non-limited is 3300 lbs. STI 3298.
Owning a LGT non-limited, I think that the suspension is much better than the wrx. In stock form the LGT drives much different than a WRX. I would have never considered one if I didn't go drive one. The non-limited weight the same as a STI and about 100lbs or so more than a WRX, but the car feels much lighter than it really is. The rear suspension takes bumps and feels more planted around a corner. With slight suspension mods (Sways, springs, and good tires) I feel it handles everybit as well as a STI. FYI curb weight on a non-limited is 3300 lbs. STI 3298.
| LastResort | 09-17-2006 08:44 PM |
This is the post I have been looking for regarding this discussion:
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L;13969716]Hello,
Just a point of reference for discussion - I was one of the designers/builders/crew on the ESX 25-hour endurance car. After several hours at the wheel, driver Gary Sheehan was able to turn a 1:59.xx on the low boost setting. In only 30 minutes of track time, driver Brian Lock was able to punch out a 2:00.xx in the Grand Am Cup Legacy GT, which was running stock intake through exhaust, including stock mufflers and resonators, with just the cats punched out, with boost at a mere 13 psi. Both cars were on equal size tires. The ESX car was putting out about 20-30 hp more than the LGT.
What's the mean? At least in race trim, stripped of luxury, the LGT is a faster road car than the STi. Yep, you heard me right. The LGT is a faster road car than the STI. I've designed, built, and crewed for more professional road racing Subarus than anyone else in the US, I think, and I feel the LGT is a better platform.
After this last weekend, I'm done being interested in an STI Limited to replace my '05 STi. Now I want an '07 Spec B to replace my '05 STi...
Joel Gat
Crew
GOTO:Racing
Grand Am Cup ST
Subaru Legacy GT[/QUOTE]
So there you have it.
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L;13969716]Hello,
Just a point of reference for discussion - I was one of the designers/builders/crew on the ESX 25-hour endurance car. After several hours at the wheel, driver Gary Sheehan was able to turn a 1:59.xx on the low boost setting. In only 30 minutes of track time, driver Brian Lock was able to punch out a 2:00.xx in the Grand Am Cup Legacy GT, which was running stock intake through exhaust, including stock mufflers and resonators, with just the cats punched out, with boost at a mere 13 psi. Both cars were on equal size tires. The ESX car was putting out about 20-30 hp more than the LGT.
What's the mean? At least in race trim, stripped of luxury, the LGT is a faster road car than the STi. Yep, you heard me right. The LGT is a faster road car than the STI. I've designed, built, and crewed for more professional road racing Subarus than anyone else in the US, I think, and I feel the LGT is a better platform.
After this last weekend, I'm done being interested in an STI Limited to replace my '05 STi. Now I want an '07 Spec B to replace my '05 STi...
Joel Gat
Crew
GOTO:Racing
Grand Am Cup ST
Subaru Legacy GT[/QUOTE]
So there you have it.
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