| spazegun2213 | 02-10-2006 03:26 PM |
Pads for the track
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Hey all, maybe i should have posted this in the brake section but i need people's opinions that track their cars. I have heard Pagid blue's are great pads, but they come with a huge price tag and a "short" life. I have talked with a few people and some say that they might not last an entire season? I plan of tracking my car 5-10 times this year, basicly as much as i can (i will not use these for AutoX). and I would like a pad to last the season. He said that the Yellows are nice Track/only pads and they might fair better over an entire season.
What do you all think? I'm on a budget, and cant really afford 2 sets of blues, so should i get the yellows? Is there something thats a little cheaper and almost as good? will the yellows tear my rotors apart?
I'll be running my stock rotors, SS brake lines and ATE super blue. I think that covers my brake info.
Thanks!!!
What do you all think? I'm on a budget, and cant really afford 2 sets of blues, so should i get the yellows? Is there something thats a little cheaper and almost as good? will the yellows tear my rotors apart?
I'll be running my stock rotors, SS brake lines and ATE super blue. I think that covers my brake info.
Thanks!!!
| WRX 2002 | 02-10-2006 03:42 PM |
I'm not sure how you can expect a track pad to last a whole season of 5 - 10 days. I use XP10's from Carbotech and they last 6 * 20min sessions. And I don't use them on the street. I'm happy with 6 sessions as my previous pads would last 4 sessions.
If your driving hard I wouldn't expect any type of pad to last more than 2 or 3 track days unless you are using low grip tires.
If your driving hard I wouldn't expect any type of pad to last more than 2 or 3 track days unless you are using low grip tires.
| JoBoo | 02-10-2006 04:35 PM |
It really depends on what track you are running at. You could get a set of pads to last that long... if you dont use your brakes much :eek:
well my 2c's really though, at some tracks where there is not a lot of braking you could get a set of fronts to last 4 (maybe 5) track days, TOPS! If you run somewhere with lots of hard braking then dont expect them to last more than a couple days. This is with good brake ducting which will extend the life a bit as well. Im not totally convinced that heat cycling the pads makes them last longer (differnt than bedding them, where there is already a good transfer of material onto the rotors)
It also depends on how comfortable you feel running the pads all the way down to the backing plate. the less pad there is the poorer their ability is to deal with the heat, leading to fade much quicker. also leads to pad knock issues.
Ive run on XP10s and generally call them dead when they get to less 1/8" left or when the pad material is totally crumbling off. (downside of carbotech I guess, I havent seen this happen with the hawks/pagids) The rears should last you way more than 10 days easily, probably beyond 20days.
well my 2c's really though, at some tracks where there is not a lot of braking you could get a set of fronts to last 4 (maybe 5) track days, TOPS! If you run somewhere with lots of hard braking then dont expect them to last more than a couple days. This is with good brake ducting which will extend the life a bit as well. Im not totally convinced that heat cycling the pads makes them last longer (differnt than bedding them, where there is already a good transfer of material onto the rotors)
It also depends on how comfortable you feel running the pads all the way down to the backing plate. the less pad there is the poorer their ability is to deal with the heat, leading to fade much quicker. also leads to pad knock issues.
Ive run on XP10s and generally call them dead when they get to less 1/8" left or when the pad material is totally crumbling off. (downside of carbotech I guess, I havent seen this happen with the hawks/pagids) The rears should last you way more than 10 days easily, probably beyond 20days.
| Bill | 02-11-2006 03:48 AM |
Another vote for Carbotech... Although, I would run PantherPlus's (PantherPluses? English was never my best language). The PantherPlus compound works well on track and is usable on the street. Again, I would get 4-6 days on the fronts and all season from the rears. Have fun...
| alcrudojr #00 | 02-11-2006 08:50 AM |
I have been using Carbotech since it was XP8's. I'm using at the moment XP11's and they are awesome. When we first started we used Hawk Blue, They were great but I had to much rotor wear and it will damage the wheel with the dust.
Call Matt or Larry at Carbotech tell them what will be your type of racing and I asure you they will recomend exactly what you need, They are the best!
704-481-8500.
Call Matt or Larry at Carbotech tell them what will be your type of racing and I asure you they will recomend exactly what you need, They are the best!
704-481-8500.
| Patrick Olsen | 02-11-2006 10:53 AM |
I've used Panther Plus, Panther XPs, and Porterfield R4 pads. IMO, the best for fade resistance and braking power was the R4. Of course, the guys at Carbotech tell me that's not possible, but... I can only tell you that my car clearly had better braking running the Porterfields than when I ran the XPs. With that said, I think I've only tried the XP9s, so in the past couple years Carbotech has come out with the XP10 and XP11. They could be better than the R4s now, I dunno.
I ran the R4s down (inadvertently) to about a fingernail's thickness on the backing plate and still had zero fade. The downside to the R4 is that they're expensive (relatively) and they didn't last nearly as long as the XPs. I got about 5 days on track out of the R4s.
I ran the XPs during the 2002 Open Track Challenge. 7 days, 7 tracks. They still had plenty of material left on them after 7 days, 4 20min sessions each day. YMMV.
[quote=WRX 2002]I use XP10's from Carbotech and they last 6 * 20min sessions. And I don't use them on the street. I'm happy with 6 sessions as my previous pads would last 4 sessions.
If your driving hard I wouldn't expect any type of pad to last more than 2 or 3 track days unless you are using low grip tires.[/quote]
You must be running some tracks that are just brutal on pads. That's some pretty extreme pad wear.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
I ran the R4s down (inadvertently) to about a fingernail's thickness on the backing plate and still had zero fade. The downside to the R4 is that they're expensive (relatively) and they didn't last nearly as long as the XPs. I got about 5 days on track out of the R4s.
I ran the XPs during the 2002 Open Track Challenge. 7 days, 7 tracks. They still had plenty of material left on them after 7 days, 4 20min sessions each day. YMMV.
[quote=WRX 2002]I use XP10's from Carbotech and they last 6 * 20min sessions. And I don't use them on the street. I'm happy with 6 sessions as my previous pads would last 4 sessions.
If your driving hard I wouldn't expect any type of pad to last more than 2 or 3 track days unless you are using low grip tires.[/quote]
You must be running some tracks that are just brutal on pads. That's some pretty extreme pad wear.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| WRX 2002 | 02-11-2006 11:37 AM |
This is at Road America, hitting 150mph down the main straight and 140 on the 2 back straights. I have run the XP10's to the backing plate and had very little difference in braking power, just need to brake a little earlier. Looking at cooling options as the 2 piece rotors are glowing red.
| 555ideways | 02-11-2006 01:09 PM |
It sounds like you're looking for an enduro pad. Initial cost will be a little higher, but they will really last. The rotors will last a bit longer too. The total cost will be the lowest. I've heard porterfield makes a good enduro pad and the Pagid yellows (RS-19)are almost famous.
If you're looking to keep costs down - the enduro pad is where it's at i think.
Oh and 6 sessions on one set of front pads?! that's crazy talk. Something seems out of whack. Don't hit the brakes so much!! :D
-Paddy
If you're looking to keep costs down - the enduro pad is where it's at i think.
Oh and 6 sessions on one set of front pads?! that's crazy talk. Something seems out of whack. Don't hit the brakes so much!! :D
-Paddy
| WRX 2002 | 02-11-2006 01:45 PM |
I suppose I could hit the wall to slow down...but then I might damage something else. ;)
Actually I thought hitting the brakes hard was a good way of washing off speed for better times around the track.
Actually I thought hitting the brakes hard was a good way of washing off speed for better times around the track.
| thechickencow | 02-11-2006 02:21 PM |
I've been the happiest with the Porterfield R4E's that I ran on my rally car. Other pads I tried were Hawk Blues and some ones I didn't know what they were. The R4E's didn't fade, seemed to last a while, didn't kill the rotors too bad, and had great feel.
I've got some Hawk HT10's to try this summer, I'll post a review when I'm able to.
Stay away from Hawk Blues. Tons of initial bite, but too agressive on the rotors IMO - I saw sparks in the side windows during night stages under heavy braking.
Jay
I've got some Hawk HT10's to try this summer, I'll post a review when I'm able to.
Stay away from Hawk Blues. Tons of initial bite, but too agressive on the rotors IMO - I saw sparks in the side windows during night stages under heavy braking.
Jay
| andy sti | 02-11-2006 04:26 PM |
Don't mean to thread jack..but what about Hawk HP+ for a newbie doing a few track days?
| Sean | 02-11-2006 09:36 PM |
+1 for Porterfield R4-R (Race Compound). Worked great at Maine Forest Rally and they're quite manageable on the street as well. Even driving up to the last two Rallycrosses (Fall and Winter) they had bite even when cold.
[size=1][url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url][/size]
[size=1][url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url][/size]
| infantsam | 02-11-2006 09:47 PM |
[QUOTE=andy sti]Don't mean to thread jack..but what about Hawk HP+ for a newbie doing a few track days?[/QUOTE]
Thats what I'll be running at VIR next week
Probably won't do once your past newbie status though
Thats what I'll be running at VIR next week
Probably won't do once your past newbie status though
| spazegun2213 | 02-11-2006 10:09 PM |
Ok, so I'm assuming that any of the good enduro pads will not tear up the rotor to bad as well? I dont mind investing a larger amount up front if i know they are a) worth it and b) will not kill the rotors.
Another question, who has/sells the Porterfields?
Again thanks for the replys!!!
Another question, who has/sells the Porterfields?
Again thanks for the replys!!!
| Sean | 02-11-2006 10:11 PM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]Another question, who has/sells the Porterfields?[/QUOTE]
Contact North Ursalia (Brain Batty) at [url]www.subaruproparts.com[/url]. They're not on the Web site but he special ordered them for me for Maine Forest Rally. :)
[size=1][url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url][/size]
Contact North Ursalia (Brain Batty) at [url]www.subaruproparts.com[/url]. They're not on the Web site but he special ordered them for me for Maine Forest Rally. :)
[size=1][url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][img]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/img][/url] [url=http://www.clutchdrop.com/]NESIC Web Site[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/]Trunkmonkey FAQ[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkeyracing.com/]Trunkmonkey Racing[/url] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/gallery/Trunkmonkeys/]Trunkmonkeys in Action[/url][/size]
| Derekb | 02-11-2006 11:00 PM |
I have a brand new set of Performance Friction pads for sale. They are much thicker than most pads (Ferodo, Carbotech, Hawk) to start with so they'll last a bit longer.
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url]
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url]
| WRX 2002 | 02-11-2006 11:16 PM |
[QUOTE=Derekb]I have a brand new set of Performance Friction pads for sale. They are much thicker than most pads (Ferodo, Carbotech, Hawk) to start with so they'll last a bit longer.
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url][/QUOTE]
Are these the pads you use during the T2 races..?
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url][/QUOTE]
Are these the pads you use during the T2 races..?
| ralliharri | 02-12-2006 09:31 AM |
I've used Panther XP's for 3 trackdays now, there was plenty of life left before I put them on before my last one. No fading and great stopping power together with rear H6 upgrade, still on orig fluids and lines and I outbraked several faster cars, including a Honda NSX (and I'd like to think that's why he spun out in the corner, seeing a station wagon catch him in the rear view mirror:-)).
| jweiss | 02-12-2006 09:40 AM |
[QUOTE=Derekb]I have a brand new set of Performance Friction pads for sale. They are much thicker than most pads (Ferodo, Carbotech, Hawk) to start with so they'll last a bit longer.
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url][/QUOTE]
Wow, didn't know PFC made pads for the STi. Do they only have the '01 compound, or are other compounds available?
Performance Friction would be my choice. I have been running them on my '82 911 (80 and 97 compounds) for 10 years now. Very happy with them.
[url]http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm[/url]
These are the pads the team that won Runoffs last year used.
$200/set front and rear
[email][email�protected][/email]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=906408[/url][/QUOTE]
Wow, didn't know PFC made pads for the STi. Do they only have the '01 compound, or are other compounds available?
Performance Friction would be my choice. I have been running them on my '82 911 (80 and 97 compounds) for 10 years now. Very happy with them.
[url]http://www.performancefriction.com/pages/compounds.htm[/url]
| AndrewSS | 02-12-2006 04:36 PM |
^ i too would be interested in the performance friction pads... I would like more info!
| Derekb | 02-12-2006 06:44 PM |
I imagine PFC can make them in any compound you wish. These are the exact pad material the ICY/Phoenix run on their cars. Based on the condition of the rotors they weren't too harsh.
For this season I am using Carbotechs due to a previous relationship but the PFC's worked well in our first sessions. We'd probably stick with PFC if I knew anyone there.
If I don't sell them soon I'll probably keep them as a backup. Pedal feel on the PFC was a little better due to the increased thickness.
-Derek
For this season I am using Carbotechs due to a previous relationship but the PFC's worked well in our first sessions. We'd probably stick with PFC if I knew anyone there.
If I don't sell them soon I'll probably keep them as a backup. Pedal feel on the PFC was a little better due to the increased thickness.
-Derek
| jweiss | 02-12-2006 07:01 PM |
Thanks Derek. Just curious where you purchased them, as I don't see anything but their "z-rated" compound available for STi on the sites that I usually buy from.
Jeff
Jeff
| AndrewSS | 02-20-2006 04:08 PM |
bump, how many of you guys have experience with the various PFC compounds, I want a pad that works well (doesnt have to be the best performer, just I dont want a lot of fading) and will last long and hopefully not kill my rotors. I have a set of HPS's that I will use on the street (swap at events) What compound do you recomend? The 01 and 97 sound interesting, any comments?
| infantsam | 02-20-2006 11:26 PM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]bump, how many of you guys have experience with the various PFC compounds, I want a pad that works well (doesnt have to be the best performer, just I dont want a lot of fading) and will last long and hopefully not kill my rotors. I have a set of HPS's that I will use on the street (swap at events) What compound do you recomend? The 01 and 97 sound interesting, any comments?[/QUOTE]
If you are going to use the same rotors for both your street and track pads it is a reasonably good idea to stick w/ the same manufacturer as rebedding the pads may work a little better. For example bedding the more metallic Hawk pads on rotors that have been run on the stret w/ Carbotechs might prove tricky.
I'm not su reof your experience level/tires etc. but why don't you try some HP+ first? They are not too much $$ and may be just what you need in terms of price/performance. Are you running R-compounds?? If so I'd reconsider what I just recommended but in general I'd suggest not getting ahead of yourself i.e. prove they aren't good enough first then move up to a more agressive compound. If you get HT-14's and can't control your brakes you are going to be pretty upset at spending that kind of $$ for the wrong thing.
If you are going to use the same rotors for both your street and track pads it is a reasonably good idea to stick w/ the same manufacturer as rebedding the pads may work a little better. For example bedding the more metallic Hawk pads on rotors that have been run on the stret w/ Carbotechs might prove tricky.
I'm not su reof your experience level/tires etc. but why don't you try some HP+ first? They are not too much $$ and may be just what you need in terms of price/performance. Are you running R-compounds?? If so I'd reconsider what I just recommended but in general I'd suggest not getting ahead of yourself i.e. prove they aren't good enough first then move up to a more agressive compound. If you get HT-14's and can't control your brakes you are going to be pretty upset at spending that kind of $$ for the wrong thing.
| AndrewSS | 02-20-2006 11:37 PM |
^ I see what you are saying there. Well since I can get the pfc 01 for cheap I dont see an issue with going with these, however I will be driving on stock evo tires (yoko advan a046) so I am not on sticky r-comps... it would be prefered that the grip of these dont easily overwhelm the tires grip. But if its controllable then its not that big of a deal.
you think switching from the HPS to the pfc 01 would cause bed in troubles.... anyone else?
-Thanks!
you think switching from the HPS to the pfc 01 would cause bed in troubles.... anyone else?
-Thanks!
| infantsam | 02-20-2006 11:50 PM |
i dunno - what I've seen is that it can usually be done - but it can take some time which you may not have at the track event.
(We bedded some XP-10's on rotors that had Hawks and it was a bit of a problem - took a few tries to get good - pad was smeared all over for a while) Eventually we got it but then the pads ate the rotors and we were a little bummed.
The 01 looks to be about like a Hawk Blue - 1000 deg F or so max. That's a pretty good amount of pad. It will require some heat to work - cold they will eat your rotors. If you are a Group 1 type guy like me they may be a bit much but your car is faster than mine too w/ a bit more tire most likely so maybe you need them.
I don't think you'd get 10 weekends out of any pad - these are likely no different.
(We bedded some XP-10's on rotors that had Hawks and it was a bit of a problem - took a few tries to get good - pad was smeared all over for a while) Eventually we got it but then the pads ate the rotors and we were a little bummed.
The 01 looks to be about like a Hawk Blue - 1000 deg F or so max. That's a pretty good amount of pad. It will require some heat to work - cold they will eat your rotors. If you are a Group 1 type guy like me they may be a bit much but your car is faster than mine too w/ a bit more tire most likely so maybe you need them.
I don't think you'd get 10 weekends out of any pad - these are likely no different.
| AndrewSS | 02-21-2006 12:23 AM |
thanks for the info... regarding the bedding issue, I hope others could chime in and give me their experiences, thanks a lot for your input too!
| AndrewSS | 02-21-2006 12:31 AM |
thanks for the info... regarding the bedding issue, I hope others could chime in and give me their experiences, thanks a lot for your input too!
| spazegun2213 | 02-21-2006 01:14 AM |
Andrew, brought up a good point, Can you swap pads at events and get away with it? I really assumed you could but i dont know for sure? If so what should l know about?
thanks
thanks
| infantsam | 02-21-2006 01:21 AM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]Andrew, brought up a good point, Can you swap pads at events and get away with it? I really assumed you could but i dont know for sure? If so what should l know about?
thanks[/QUOTE]
course you can - you just need some time (in short supply) and room to go bed them in off track
one good solution if the pads you choose aren't too aggressive is to swap the day before you drive out and bed on the way.......just be careful not to use them cold too much or your rotors will complain.
thanks[/QUOTE]
course you can - you just need some time (in short supply) and room to go bed them in off track
one good solution if the pads you choose aren't too aggressive is to swap the day before you drive out and bed on the way.......just be careful not to use them cold too much or your rotors will complain.
| 2k2_turbo_egg | 02-21-2006 04:39 AM |
Axxis ultimates on my friend's WRX and on my EP3 have always proven to be a great pad minus the copper staining dust.
| ralliharri | 02-21-2006 11:31 AM |
[QUOTE=2k2_turbo_egg]Axxis ultimates on my friend's WRX and on my EP3 have always proven to be a great pad minus the copper staining dust.[/QUOTE]
They are not a track pad, used them on my RSX-S and they fade pretty bad.
They are not a track pad, used them on my RSX-S and they fade pretty bad.
| Butt Dyno | 02-21-2006 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=ralliharri]They are not a track pad, used them on my RSX-S and they fade pretty bad.[/QUOTE]
They work fine on my Miata...
It was also (IIRC) the pad that came with the StopTech kit for a while.
They work fine on my Miata...
It was also (IIRC) the pad that came with the StopTech kit for a while.
| infantsam | 02-21-2006 11:41 AM |
your car is much lighter, better balanced (50-50), and slower....so brakes are much less an issue - in fact too much brakes can be a momentum killer on the track in something like a Miata....
| 2k2_turbo_egg | 02-21-2006 02:58 PM |
[QUOTE=ralliharri]They are not a track pad, used them on my RSX-S and they fade pretty bad.[/QUOTE]
Whoops, didn't know we were talking about track only :(
Ferrero (sp?) makes a badass pad that my HPDE instructor uses, and cobalt has one that needs to be warmed up but bites like a bia bia.
Whoops, didn't know we were talking about track only :(
Ferrero (sp?) makes a badass pad that my HPDE instructor uses, and cobalt has one that needs to be warmed up but bites like a bia bia.
| stanton | 03-05-2006 10:36 PM |
Good information here. Can anyone make comparisons to the EBC RedStuffs? I am really happy with them, from NE winter to track day. They faded a little ...and aren't red any more ;).
| racekar | 03-06-2006 01:57 AM |
for hpde are people upgrading rear pads??? or just running stock.
i was thinking of prob running hawk hp+ or something equivalent???
i run spec b on my integra but that was mostly a track only car.
i was thinking of prob running hawk hp+ or something equivalent???
i run spec b on my integra but that was mostly a track only car.
| infantsam | 03-06-2006 02:13 AM |
Some run regular pads - some get better ones
If you believe the bias thing then you want good friction in the rear as well..otherwise you upset the bias.
Although watching SCCA guys spray WD-40 on the rear brakes leads me to believe that these guys REALLY like to trail brake w/out spinning. I asked Mr. Sheehan this exact question last year. He said they are giving up time.
So I suppose the answer is 'Well how do you drive?"
If you believe the bias thing then you want good friction in the rear as well..otherwise you upset the bias.
Although watching SCCA guys spray WD-40 on the rear brakes leads me to believe that these guys REALLY like to trail brake w/out spinning. I asked Mr. Sheehan this exact question last year. He said they are giving up time.
So I suppose the answer is 'Well how do you drive?"
| ghschirtz | 03-06-2006 08:11 PM |
[QUOTE=stanton]Good information here. Can anyone make comparisons to the EBC RedStuffs? I am really happy with them, from NE winter to track day. They faded a little ...and aren't red any more ;).[/QUOTE]
I put Redstuff Ceramics in for trackdays at Laguna Seca and Willow Springs (big track). I am sold on the pad as a street pad, great feel, bite, quiet, low dust. They worked very well on the tracks, and I am continuing to use them on the street now. They do wear pretty quickly, but they seem kind to the rotors. I have a set of Yellowstuff R's to replace the Reds when they wear out. Will probably try those out on the street for a while as I am taking a breather from track days. Budget Committee resolution. Got some feedback on the suspension site about Reds, that they wear rapidly, but otherwise are a very good pad. Tire Rack comments on Hawk pads (noise and rotor wear) had me look at the Reds, and I am very happy.
I am not be driving hard enough to get my rotors to glow, I expect, but my pads are no longer red, either. If you are going that fast, then PFC's, Pagids (a friend uses them in his Infiniti G35 coupe which is very fast-very happy with the pad) or Porterfields might be better. Universally, the Hawks seem to eat rotors and make a lot of noise doing it. No experience with Carbotechs but it seems like a lot of people are using them and happy.
For what it is worth...
George
I put Redstuff Ceramics in for trackdays at Laguna Seca and Willow Springs (big track). I am sold on the pad as a street pad, great feel, bite, quiet, low dust. They worked very well on the tracks, and I am continuing to use them on the street now. They do wear pretty quickly, but they seem kind to the rotors. I have a set of Yellowstuff R's to replace the Reds when they wear out. Will probably try those out on the street for a while as I am taking a breather from track days. Budget Committee resolution. Got some feedback on the suspension site about Reds, that they wear rapidly, but otherwise are a very good pad. Tire Rack comments on Hawk pads (noise and rotor wear) had me look at the Reds, and I am very happy.
I am not be driving hard enough to get my rotors to glow, I expect, but my pads are no longer red, either. If you are going that fast, then PFC's, Pagids (a friend uses them in his Infiniti G35 coupe which is very fast-very happy with the pad) or Porterfields might be better. Universally, the Hawks seem to eat rotors and make a lot of noise doing it. No experience with Carbotechs but it seems like a lot of people are using them and happy.
For what it is worth...
George
| racekar | 03-06-2006 09:03 PM |
ive used hawk hp plus they work ok for hpde /track but do fade with threshold braking and are noisy and dust a lot.
axxis ultimates i heard are similar in performance from my friends who has used both.
i havent used cobalt friction gt sports yet or the carbotech etc..
any comments compared to these... and are people upgrade rear pads also??
axxis ultimates i heard are similar in performance from my friends who has used both.
i havent used cobalt friction gt sports yet or the carbotech etc..
any comments compared to these... and are people upgrade rear pads also??
| ChrisDP | 03-07-2006 08:35 AM |
The GT-Sports are a step up from the HP+. A little more fade resistance, initial bite and better modulation. I'm on my 2nd set now, I've been using them for the last 60k miles. That said, they won't really work for our heavy/powerful cars with anyone other than a beginning driver.
The Spec VR is a pretty phenomenal track pad. Very high pad density for better pedal feel and above-average wear rates. As a bonus, they stop fairly well cold (IMO comparable to a stock WRX pad) without tearing up your rotors, so you won't feel like you're going to die on the way to the track. While Cobalt wouldn't advise this, SOME people have daily-driven them year-round, lol.
The Spec VR is a pretty phenomenal track pad. Very high pad density for better pedal feel and above-average wear rates. As a bonus, they stop fairly well cold (IMO comparable to a stock WRX pad) without tearing up your rotors, so you won't feel like you're going to die on the way to the track. While Cobalt wouldn't advise this, SOME people have daily-driven them year-round, lol.
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-07-2006 12:35 PM |
Ferodo DS2500 for street/autox (even an occasional track day)- DS3000's for the track- these pads grip- really grip, I was suprised how my brake zones were moved up w/ these pads. Very rotor friendly.
Down side (there has to be a down side :) )- cost and I'd only rate them as mildly long lived (specific track and how aggressive your braking will dictate how long). I got eight 15-20 minute sessions at a fairly demanding (brake wise) track- I probably have another 3-5 sessions left in them.
Wish they were a little cheaper and lasted a little longer, but they do work as advertised.
Ferodo also makes a 3000 "enduro" pad, my guess is the bite is down quite a bit- would be worth experimenting w/ a set.
Down side (there has to be a down side :) )- cost and I'd only rate them as mildly long lived (specific track and how aggressive your braking will dictate how long). I got eight 15-20 minute sessions at a fairly demanding (brake wise) track- I probably have another 3-5 sessions left in them.
Wish they were a little cheaper and lasted a little longer, but they do work as advertised.
Ferodo also makes a 3000 "enduro" pad, my guess is the bite is down quite a bit- would be worth experimenting w/ a set.
| ghschirtz | 03-07-2006 08:33 PM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Ferodo DS2500 for street/autox (even an occasional track day)- DS3000's for the track- these pads grip- really grip, I was suprised how my brake zones were moved up w/ these pads. Very rotor friendly.
Down side (there has to be a down side :) )- cost and I'd only rate them as mildly long lived (specific track and how aggressive your braking will dictate how long). I got eight 15-20 minute sessions at a fairly demanding (brake wise) track- I probably have another 3-5 sessions left in them.
Wish they were a little cheaper and lasted a little longer, but they do work as advertised.
Ferodo also makes a 3000 "enduro" pad, my guess is the bite is down quite a bit- would be worth experimenting w/ a set.[/QUOTE]
I understand Ferodo does not make a pad for the 02 WRX. They have a long history in the business and reputedly are good pads.
George
Down side (there has to be a down side :) )- cost and I'd only rate them as mildly long lived (specific track and how aggressive your braking will dictate how long). I got eight 15-20 minute sessions at a fairly demanding (brake wise) track- I probably have another 3-5 sessions left in them.
Wish they were a little cheaper and lasted a little longer, but they do work as advertised.
Ferodo also makes a 3000 "enduro" pad, my guess is the bite is down quite a bit- would be worth experimenting w/ a set.[/QUOTE]
I understand Ferodo does not make a pad for the 02 WRX. They have a long history in the business and reputedly are good pads.
George
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-07-2006 08:38 PM |
They actually do make a pad for the 02 oem calipers, they do not make a pad for the 03-05 oem calipers.
And fortunately they make lots of pads for the FHI four pots (or 300zx TT :))
And fortunately they make lots of pads for the FHI four pots (or 300zx TT :))
| shemoves | 03-30-2006 01:06 AM |
I am thinking of doing my first HPDE here soon, but am also wanting to change pads. If I were to get DS2500s, about how much of the pad material would I go through during that 'track day?'
| BIGSKYWRX | 03-30-2006 09:29 AM |
Going to vary a lot on the track and how many sessions your doing. On my WRX I could get 3-4 track days with a fair amount of daily driving in between.
| infantsam | 03-30-2006 09:33 AM |
Thats pretty hard to answer - what track, what tires, how many sessions will you get, how hard are you on the brakes.etc.
maybe 25-50% wear for a weekend - more on the front than rear.
HP+ offer close to similar performance - cost less -
PantherPlus are also in the same category - might be closer to 2500 prices but wear a bit faster
any of them should be good for a first HPDE - enough but not too much..
Get some hi-temp fluid in there and brakes shouldn't be a concern
my .02 cents
[QUOTE=shemoves]I am thinking of doing my first HPDE here soon, but am also wanting to change pads. If I were to get DS2500s, about how much of the pad material would I go through during that 'track day?'[/QUOTE]
maybe 25-50% wear for a weekend - more on the front than rear.
HP+ offer close to similar performance - cost less -
PantherPlus are also in the same category - might be closer to 2500 prices but wear a bit faster
any of them should be good for a first HPDE - enough but not too much..
Get some hi-temp fluid in there and brakes shouldn't be a concern
my .02 cents
[QUOTE=shemoves]I am thinking of doing my first HPDE here soon, but am also wanting to change pads. If I were to get DS2500s, about how much of the pad material would I go through during that 'track day?'[/QUOTE]
| mhoward1 | 03-30-2006 01:42 PM |
[QUOTE=andy sti]Don't mean to thread jack..but what about Hawk HP+ for a newbie doing a few track days?[/QUOTE]
HP+ pads are great for those just getting into HPDE or light TT. They don't eat rotors and can be used on the street with little issues.
HP+ pads are great for those just getting into HPDE or light TT. They don't eat rotors and can be used on the street with little issues.
| grippgoat | 03-30-2006 06:52 PM |
[QUOTE=mh_WRX]HP+ pads are great for those just getting into HPDE or light TT. They don't eat rotors and can be used on the street with little issues.[/QUOTE]
I suppose for a noob, HP+ might cut it. On my STI, though, they simply don't cut it for track use. I actually thought they were OK until a friend/instructor/kamikaze psycho showed me how to use brakes. :devil: They never gave me catastrophic fade or anything, but after a few laps they won't even let me get into ABS, and they wear very fast when you keep using 'em hard when they're that hot. That said, my fastest lap ever at Portland International Raceway was on HP+ (end of the day after I killed the DS3000s), so they are certainly capable, but you have to try a lot harder.
I haven't read this whole thread, but i thought I'd drop a couple more comments from other pads I've tried this year:
Ferodo DS3000: awesome braking power, awesome feel and modulation... but I wore an entire front set in less than 2 days at the track. They also abused my rotors (actually, I'm not sure if most of the abuse came from the DS3000 or the last session back on the HP+). I can't afford that. However, I think with brake ducting and removed dust shields, they might be worth another look.
Performance Friction 97 Compound: Good braking power, barely used in 2 track days, improved condition of rotors (started where the DS3000s left off, which is far from ideal). Still had a lot of surface cracking in the rotors. Good wear (2 track days and well more than 50% pad remaining). Feel and modulation was kinda crappy, but that could easily be the fault of the rotors or even the fluid. I did remove the dust shields for the 2 days I did on these pads, which may have helped wear. These actually stop just fine on the street, but they're super squealy, and probably killing the rotors. :)
-Mike
I suppose for a noob, HP+ might cut it. On my STI, though, they simply don't cut it for track use. I actually thought they were OK until a friend/instructor/kamikaze psycho showed me how to use brakes. :devil: They never gave me catastrophic fade or anything, but after a few laps they won't even let me get into ABS, and they wear very fast when you keep using 'em hard when they're that hot. That said, my fastest lap ever at Portland International Raceway was on HP+ (end of the day after I killed the DS3000s), so they are certainly capable, but you have to try a lot harder.
I haven't read this whole thread, but i thought I'd drop a couple more comments from other pads I've tried this year:
Ferodo DS3000: awesome braking power, awesome feel and modulation... but I wore an entire front set in less than 2 days at the track. They also abused my rotors (actually, I'm not sure if most of the abuse came from the DS3000 or the last session back on the HP+). I can't afford that. However, I think with brake ducting and removed dust shields, they might be worth another look.
Performance Friction 97 Compound: Good braking power, barely used in 2 track days, improved condition of rotors (started where the DS3000s left off, which is far from ideal). Still had a lot of surface cracking in the rotors. Good wear (2 track days and well more than 50% pad remaining). Feel and modulation was kinda crappy, but that could easily be the fault of the rotors or even the fluid. I did remove the dust shields for the 2 days I did on these pads, which may have helped wear. These actually stop just fine on the street, but they're super squealy, and probably killing the rotors. :)
-Mike
| racekar | 03-31-2006 12:12 AM |
hp plus do fade with threshold braking i agree.
the only track race pads that i had good exp with on my track car was cobalt friction spev b or v for race use only that was an awesome pad.
the only track race pads that i had good exp with on my track car was cobalt friction spev b or v for race use only that was an awesome pad.
| Funky | 03-31-2006 12:38 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]Still had a lot of surface cracking in the rotors. [/QUOTE]
If you are getting surface cracking, then the rotors are overheating. If you get proper ducting it shouldn't be a problem. This isn't really a function of the pad except that most street/autocross (HP+) pads will give up before getting a rotor that hot -- race pads won't, so rotor heat is a concern. You can get the temperature-sensitive paint from a race shop and put a few dots on the outside of the rotor, that will give you an idea of the temperatures they are reaching during a session.
If you keep the rotor temps in check, you shouldn't really see any appreciable rotor wear with track pads at their operating temperature. They are working primarily with cohesive friction (as opposed to abrasive) at those temperatures and rotor wear is generally a non-issue. They will eventually crack from the stress (as any rotor will) but it shouldn't be happening after only a few trackdays.
If you are getting surface cracking, then the rotors are overheating. If you get proper ducting it shouldn't be a problem. This isn't really a function of the pad except that most street/autocross (HP+) pads will give up before getting a rotor that hot -- race pads won't, so rotor heat is a concern. You can get the temperature-sensitive paint from a race shop and put a few dots on the outside of the rotor, that will give you an idea of the temperatures they are reaching during a session.
If you keep the rotor temps in check, you shouldn't really see any appreciable rotor wear with track pads at their operating temperature. They are working primarily with cohesive friction (as opposed to abrasive) at those temperatures and rotor wear is generally a non-issue. They will eventually crack from the stress (as any rotor will) but it shouldn't be happening after only a few trackdays.
| RaceComp Engineering | 04-01-2006 01:06 AM |
Its funny because I have always said that air to the brakes is needed for brakes to last. I have people who have argued this for years, but its true.
Pagid blues were designed as Rally tarmac pads because they dont require alot of heat to work and can come up to temp fast and still withstand 1100-1200 degrees for short spurts. Thats were the RS19 (yellow) comes in and takes over, but all these should have ducting. So now when I say this, people think I am trying to sell them our ducts, yet I have been saying this for years. With ducting being legal in T2 now and T2 drivers admitting its needed for many tracks, hopefully people will recognize that it not only works, but is almost needed when you get to a certain level. For some, they dont need it because they are at a track thats not hard on brakes, for others, they are not fast yet. Simple really, but that later reality isnt something many are willing to admit.
Myles
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961185&highlight=gary+sheehan[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=941255&highlight=kool+brake+kit[/url]
Pagid blues were designed as Rally tarmac pads because they dont require alot of heat to work and can come up to temp fast and still withstand 1100-1200 degrees for short spurts. Thats were the RS19 (yellow) comes in and takes over, but all these should have ducting. So now when I say this, people think I am trying to sell them our ducts, yet I have been saying this for years. With ducting being legal in T2 now and T2 drivers admitting its needed for many tracks, hopefully people will recognize that it not only works, but is almost needed when you get to a certain level. For some, they dont need it because they are at a track thats not hard on brakes, for others, they are not fast yet. Simple really, but that later reality isnt something many are willing to admit.
Myles
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=961185&highlight=gary+sheehan[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=941255&highlight=kool+brake+kit[/url]
| grippgoat | 04-01-2006 01:26 AM |
Myles,
I'm actually anxiously awaiting your ducts. I checked your site a few days ago and didn't see them. I also spoke to someone at the track earlier this month who said you had a bit more work to do for them to properly fit the 05 STI. Let me know when they're available. :)
-Mike
I'm actually anxiously awaiting your ducts. I checked your site a few days ago and didn't see them. I also spoke to someone at the track earlier this month who said you had a bit more work to do for them to properly fit the 05 STI. Let me know when they're available. :)
-Mike
| ca_deal1 | 04-01-2006 02:57 AM |
pretty good.
| RaceComp Engineering | 04-01-2006 06:17 AM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat]Myles,
I'm actually anxiously awaiting your ducts. I checked your site a few days ago and didn't see them. I also spoke to someone at the track earlier this month who said you had a bit more work to do for them to properly fit the 05 STI. Let me know when they're available. :)
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Mike these are done and ready. Yes we did some revisions for 05-06 but thats done now. Yes we are updating site. To order just call Kelly, Drew or Bob Mon-Fri 11-6....or call me on my mobile. I keep a set in the car in case I am at the track and someone ask me about them.. :lol: ., but these are done.
Myles
410-707-0108 mobile
I'm actually anxiously awaiting your ducts. I checked your site a few days ago and didn't see them. I also spoke to someone at the track earlier this month who said you had a bit more work to do for them to properly fit the 05 STI. Let me know when they're available. :)
-Mike[/QUOTE]
Mike these are done and ready. Yes we did some revisions for 05-06 but thats done now. Yes we are updating site. To order just call Kelly, Drew or Bob Mon-Fri 11-6....or call me on my mobile. I keep a set in the car in case I am at the track and someone ask me about them.. :lol: ., but these are done.
Myles
410-707-0108 mobile
| Element Tuning | 04-01-2006 09:16 AM |
Stoptech set our Time Attack car up with Hawk HT10 pads and they work excellent for us. Initial bite is great so the pads actually work well for street use however they are dusty and squeal sometimes. Longevity is good as we have about 7 25 minute Time Attacks with Gary Sheehan driving and there�s still plenty of pad left. I haven�t paid too much attention to rotor wear.
I absolutely hate my EBC Red Stuff pads but they may be the older version (no ceramic). They require way too much heat to be passable for street pads but once up to temp they work ok but I�ll take the HT10s.
Running a car with 500 whp is extremely hard on the brakes especially coupled with a professional driver and we had some heat related fade due to the lack of air to the brakes in 04. For 05 we switched to ATE fluid from Motul and installed Stoptech�s titanium backing plates and it was surprisingly enough for 25 minutes of track use. I still need to improve�..scratch that�..to get any air to the brake rotors/calipers.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]http://www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I absolutely hate my EBC Red Stuff pads but they may be the older version (no ceramic). They require way too much heat to be passable for street pads but once up to temp they work ok but I�ll take the HT10s.
Running a car with 500 whp is extremely hard on the brakes especially coupled with a professional driver and we had some heat related fade due to the lack of air to the brakes in 04. For 05 we switched to ATE fluid from Motul and installed Stoptech�s titanium backing plates and it was surprisingly enough for 25 minutes of track use. I still need to improve�..scratch that�..to get any air to the brake rotors/calipers.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]http://www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| rbahr | 04-04-2006 11:50 PM |
I have been using PF-97s and they work well. After talking to PF I may try the PF-01s but need to finish my brake cooling project first as they generat more heat.
Ray
Ray
| stanton | 04-05-2006 07:16 AM |
[QUOTE=Element Tuning]...I absolutely hate my EBC Red Stuff pads but they may be the older version (no ceramic). They require way too much heat to be passable for street pads but once up to temp they work ok but I�ll take the HT10s...[/QUOTE]They must be the old formula. Mine are better than the stock pad (if that says anything) even at 10F.
| Jack | 04-05-2006 09:13 AM |
[QUOTE=spazegun2213]What do you all think? I'm on a budget, and cant really afford 2 sets of blues, so should i get the yellows? Is there something thats a little cheaper and almost as good? will the yellows tear my rotors apart? [/QUOTE]
I think you're getting a TON of simple answers without enough information to give you a GOOD answer here.
I looked through the postings and you don't say what your car is. ??
What experience level are you at with your car. ??
Initially, I would say that if you are a newbie at the track, stock stuff will do just fine. Read labels. ATE is junk. Well, not junk, but no better than Ford HD which is way cheaper. If you are already boiling fluid, find something with a higher dry boiling temp. Motul 600 is what...585, Wilwood exp600 is 635.
If you've already got some experience....and since you're talking about doing 5-10 track days, I'd think so....skip one track day and spend the money on a separate set of rotors/pads just for track use.
Many pad compounds are NOT compatible with other compounds. Hawk Blue, for example is NOT compatible with Audi OEM material. How do I know? Melted caliper seals from so much heat.
Cooling of pads is key....especially when it gets into the summer. You don't need specially made cooling ducts. You can make your own. I've done this with most of my cars. Takes a bunch of time, but is well worth it.
Talk with people running your car on the track. Carbotech is a great company with many pad compounds. Call them and they will tell you what will work best on your car. I did this with my racecar. I gave them the car, its weight (1600 pounds), brakes on the car and tires I'm using. They told me what I should run and sent them to me. They've been fantastic. They aren't cheap, but they work well.
Swap back to what's on your car right now for street use.
jack
I think you're getting a TON of simple answers without enough information to give you a GOOD answer here.
I looked through the postings and you don't say what your car is. ??
What experience level are you at with your car. ??
Initially, I would say that if you are a newbie at the track, stock stuff will do just fine. Read labels. ATE is junk. Well, not junk, but no better than Ford HD which is way cheaper. If you are already boiling fluid, find something with a higher dry boiling temp. Motul 600 is what...585, Wilwood exp600 is 635.
If you've already got some experience....and since you're talking about doing 5-10 track days, I'd think so....skip one track day and spend the money on a separate set of rotors/pads just for track use.
Many pad compounds are NOT compatible with other compounds. Hawk Blue, for example is NOT compatible with Audi OEM material. How do I know? Melted caliper seals from so much heat.
Cooling of pads is key....especially when it gets into the summer. You don't need specially made cooling ducts. You can make your own. I've done this with most of my cars. Takes a bunch of time, but is well worth it.
Talk with people running your car on the track. Carbotech is a great company with many pad compounds. Call them and they will tell you what will work best on your car. I did this with my racecar. I gave them the car, its weight (1600 pounds), brakes on the car and tires I'm using. They told me what I should run and sent them to me. They've been fantastic. They aren't cheap, but they work well.
Swap back to what's on your car right now for street use.
jack
| jweiss | 04-05-2006 09:14 AM |
[QUOTE=rbahr]I have been using PF-97s and they work well. After talking to PF I may try the PF-01s but need to finish my brake cooling project first as they generat more heat.
Ray[/QUOTE]
Ray - is this on the STi? Where did you purchase the PFC97s? The place that I use for my Porsche said that they were only available for the front rotors...
Jeff
Ray[/QUOTE]
Ray - is this on the STi? Where did you purchase the PFC97s? The place that I use for my Porsche said that they were only available for the front rotors...
Jeff
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