| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 09:26 AM |
Two spectators hit and killed on Sawmill (PA) club rally stage 3
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[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID2/1344.html[/url]
| akuhner | 05-11-2003 09:38 AM |
:( so not good. what a tradgedy. if anyone finds more details like a press release or local newspaper article please post links.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 09:43 AM |
And specialstage forums are offline for "maintenance". I hope that isn't the SCCA cone of silence descending.
(edit) confirmation on rally-l that they were hit by a competitor vehicle on a hot stage.
(edit) confirmation on rally-l that they were hit by a competitor vehicle on a hot stage.
| fengshui-fu | 05-11-2003 10:03 AM |
I hope the families don't blame the sport or the SCCA. I figured they always stationed spectator areas in very unlikely accident areas(like on a hill on the inside curve for example). I pray that the families make it through this ok, and that future events continue, with more safety.
chris
chris
| Sean | 05-11-2003 10:33 AM |
Crap...that sucks. The forums at Specialstage.com are down and Google News returns no hits yet. Does anyone have a URL for Rally-L archives?
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 10:37 AM |
rally-l archives: [url]http://cowboywww.squawk.com/majordomo/rally-l.archives[/url]
username: majordomo
password: majordomo
Don't expect to find much there on this subject, it is mostly "hey check out this post on specialstage".
username: majordomo
password: majordomo
Don't expect to find much there on this subject, it is mostly "hey check out this post on specialstage".
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 10:50 AM |
Uh oh, the information lockdown is descending:
I am not getting a 404 error on the specialstage post. It appears to have been deleted.
When are people going to realize that censoring information about accidents like this is even worse for the sport than allowing people to talk about it?
Glenn
I am not getting a 404 error on the specialstage post. It appears to have been deleted.
When are people going to realize that censoring information about accidents like this is even worse for the sport than allowing people to talk about it?
Glenn
| Geek Guy | 05-11-2003 11:05 AM |
Geez, deleting the information makes everyone in this sport look guilty of something... all that much more likely that some form of inquiry is going to take place :(
I wonder if we'll ever even see a formal press release from the SCCA/Spitzner on this one. Somehow, I doubt it. I feel that prompt release of information to avoid the spread of rumors is a must, especially in this this sport where we are all full of rumors, speculations, ourselves.
My prayers are out to the famailies, and all of those involved with this horrible incident.
I wonder if we'll ever even see a formal press release from the SCCA/Spitzner on this one. Somehow, I doubt it. I feel that prompt release of information to avoid the spread of rumors is a must, especially in this this sport where we are all full of rumors, speculations, ourselves.
My prayers are out to the famailies, and all of those involved with this horrible incident.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 11:13 AM |
They missed a mention of it:
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID21/144.html[/url]
[url]http://www.specialstage.com/forum/cgi-bin/DCForumID21/144.html[/url]
| RallyDriver | 05-11-2003 11:15 AM |
I returned from Sawmill yesterday. I think noone should publically put any information on the forum untill the oficial press release.
R.
R.
| akuhner | 05-11-2003 12:39 PM |
I'm sure they are just doing what their lawyers tell them (the SCCA I mean), which in the end is in our best interest as well. However, this is the "age of information" so they better get their version of the story out before someone else does.
In terms of what information to share, they can be descreet, but not go into lock down. I agree that people who saw the incident should NOT post about what they saw for any number of reasons, including that it's just tasteless and insensitive to the families. However, deleting the post on Special Stage that containted only extremely basic information (people said they heard there was an accient, one guy at the driver's meeting confirmed that 2 spectators had been fatally injured) is complete overkill. They should not have said anything at the driver's meeting that they did not want to be public information.
If the SCCA wants to retain credibility they must have a press release by the end of the day (and let us say what we want about it!).
Instead of killing the threads on Special Stage, why not lock the thread and post something along the lines of "out of respect for the families involved, this thread is being locked until an official press release is made public - please honor their memories by refraining from further speculation on the topic until that time."
Alex :(
In terms of what information to share, they can be descreet, but not go into lock down. I agree that people who saw the incident should NOT post about what they saw for any number of reasons, including that it's just tasteless and insensitive to the families. However, deleting the post on Special Stage that containted only extremely basic information (people said they heard there was an accient, one guy at the driver's meeting confirmed that 2 spectators had been fatally injured) is complete overkill. They should not have said anything at the driver's meeting that they did not want to be public information.
If the SCCA wants to retain credibility they must have a press release by the end of the day (and let us say what we want about it!).
Instead of killing the threads on Special Stage, why not lock the thread and post something along the lines of "out of respect for the families involved, this thread is being locked until an official press release is made public - please honor their memories by refraining from further speculation on the topic until that time."
Alex :(
| DJ 9iron | 05-11-2003 01:07 PM |
The scary thing to me is, the incident happened about 100 feet from where I was standing the previous stage.
This occured in stage 3, I was there in stage 2. They ran the stage in reverse. I was filming the corner before the straight that it happened on.
:( Condolences to the victims' families and the drivers.
This occured in stage 3, I was there in stage 2. They ran the stage in reverse. I was filming the corner before the straight that it happened on.
:( Condolences to the victims' families and the drivers.
| RallyDriver | 05-11-2003 01:26 PM |
Actually after thinking that over, I also come to the conclusion that SCCA is trying to keep quiet and plays with time, where if a simular accident took place everywhere in the world that info would spread around the world in few hours.
Reaction of the club (SCCA) was the same 3 years ago after the accident in Skisawmill that took place on the same stage (English run); this time because of the involvement of spectators, few things can not be hidden, because it is not limited to competitors who after signing the weaver are accepting taking the risks involved.
R
Reaction of the club (SCCA) was the same 3 years ago after the accident in Skisawmill that took place on the same stage (English run); this time because of the involvement of spectators, few things can not be hidden, because it is not limited to competitors who after signing the weaver are accepting taking the risks involved.
R
| Mopho | 05-11-2003 01:42 PM |
The SCCA does not have control over Specialstage.com, if that were the case it would have been closed a long time ago as a lot of the people participating on the forum do nothing but bash the SCCA and I know that the SCCA hates the forum for that reason.
It seems that SS.com has been shut down for maintenence, if the post was deleted it was because the owners of the sight decided to delete it.
It seems that SS.com has been shut down for maintenence, if the post was deleted it was because the owners of the sight decided to delete it.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 02:25 PM |
[quote]The SCCA does not have control over Specialstage.com[/quote]
One of the SS people is on the SCCA PRB. So, while they may not have control over it, there certainly is some relation.
[quote]if the post was deleted it was because the owners of the sight decided to delete it[/quote]
Certainly they have that right, my point was that a) it only adds to the speculation and gossip and b) the flipping post had very little information, it seems pointless to delete it. People will still talk about it - ooh, we are now!
A press release ASAP from the organizers and/or the SCCA would be good.
Glenn
One of the SS people is on the SCCA PRB. So, while they may not have control over it, there certainly is some relation.
[quote]if the post was deleted it was because the owners of the sight decided to delete it[/quote]
Certainly they have that right, my point was that a) it only adds to the speculation and gossip and b) the flipping post had very little information, it seems pointless to delete it. People will still talk about it - ooh, we are now!
A press release ASAP from the organizers and/or the SCCA would be good.
Glenn
| Mopho | 05-11-2003 02:31 PM |
As it stands, the whole forum is down and we don't know if the post was deleted or not. Possibly the forum is down to control chatter about the incident, but like you said that would do little to stop people from talking about it elsewhere.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 02:47 PM |
The thread was readable after the forum went down. It has now been deleted.
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-11-2003 04:31 PM |
Let's just wait for the SCCA to do it's thing.
I was 50 feet away from the people when they got hit. This is not good for rally. I expect to see MANY changes after this. And I DO hope to see these changes done because I don't want to have to go through this again.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
I will be posting the other (non-incident) pics from the race tonite.
I was 50 feet away from the people when they got hit. This is not good for rally. I expect to see MANY changes after this. And I DO hope to see these changes done because I don't want to have to go through this again.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
I will be posting the other (non-incident) pics from the race tonite.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 05:01 PM |
It would be interesting to know if the car went off the road or not, was it on a corner or a straight, how far back from the road the spectators were (not just the ones that were hit).
Glenn
SCCA Press Release page to watch: [url]http://www.scca.com/amateur/performance_rally/press/[/url]
Event web site: [url]http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/index.html[/url]
Glenn
SCCA Press Release page to watch: [url]http://www.scca.com/amateur/performance_rally/press/[/url]
Event web site: [url]http://www.rallyright.com/sawmill/index.html[/url]
| rallynutdon | 05-11-2003 05:02 PM |
Quote [ I expect to see MANY changes after this. And I DO hope to see these changes done because I don't want to have to go through this again.]
But what changes? (other than no more events)! You can not have an "official" positioned with every "non offical" person along every foot of every stage. What other change can be made? Even making it a non spectator event won't prevent someone from being there. Put a big fence around every stage? I'm not saying that things shouldn't be tried. I'm just questioning what can realistically be done to prevent something like this from happening.
But what changes? (other than no more events)! You can not have an "official" positioned with every "non offical" person along every foot of every stage. What other change can be made? Even making it a non spectator event won't prevent someone from being there. Put a big fence around every stage? I'm not saying that things shouldn't be tried. I'm just questioning what can realistically be done to prevent something like this from happening.
| RallyDriver | 05-11-2003 05:06 PM |
[URL=http://http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7980304&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6]
[url]http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7980304&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6[/url][/URL]
[url]http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=7980304&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6[/url][/URL]
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 05:15 PM |
[url]http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=1273271&nav=3YeXFki6[/url]
[url]http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/5838231.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/news/local/5838231.htm[/url]
| akuhner | 05-11-2003 05:20 PM |
Pete - one simple question for you: did you feel safe where you were standing, and would you have felt safe in their location? not meant to be inflamatory in anyway, even if your answer is no. Just trying to guage the situation.
Interesting that none of those articles call it a "race." Thats a good thing.
Alex
Interesting that none of those articles call it a "race." Thats a good thing.
Alex
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-11-2003 05:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon [/i]
[B]But what changes? (other than no more events)! You can not have an "official" positioned with every "non offical" person along every foot of every stage. What other change can be made? Even making it a non spectator event won't prevent someone from being there. Put a big fence around every stage? I'm not saying that things shouldn't be tried. I'm just questioning what can realistically be done to prevent something like this from happening. [/B][/QUOTE]
Anything possible that can be done w/o cancelling the event. Get a sweep Greyhound bus that goes through filled with militia men and have them pull people out of the stage and put 'em in the spectator spots. Anything!! Post people at all entrances to the forest with small post cards with the picture I got of the incident happening to use as a scare tactic. Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get.
Regardless, something has to improve. As horrible as it was at the time, do something like Cherokee had in 2002. Just don't put people 300 yards away from the rally road. Keep the area patrolled, policed, yet put the spectators in a good area where they can see, take their pictures/video, and yet be 100% safe.
Alex - 50 feet can be a tremendous difference on a stage. You can be 100% safe in your spot, but 50 feet up or back, it can be the worst place to be. I always stand where I feel nearly 100% safe. Anything can happen though, even at that 100% spot. I can't speak for their spot since I didn't analyze it.
Pete
[B]But what changes? (other than no more events)! You can not have an "official" positioned with every "non offical" person along every foot of every stage. What other change can be made? Even making it a non spectator event won't prevent someone from being there. Put a big fence around every stage? I'm not saying that things shouldn't be tried. I'm just questioning what can realistically be done to prevent something like this from happening. [/B][/QUOTE]
Anything possible that can be done w/o cancelling the event. Get a sweep Greyhound bus that goes through filled with militia men and have them pull people out of the stage and put 'em in the spectator spots. Anything!! Post people at all entrances to the forest with small post cards with the picture I got of the incident happening to use as a scare tactic. Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get.
Regardless, something has to improve. As horrible as it was at the time, do something like Cherokee had in 2002. Just don't put people 300 yards away from the rally road. Keep the area patrolled, policed, yet put the spectators in a good area where they can see, take their pictures/video, and yet be 100% safe.
Alex - 50 feet can be a tremendous difference on a stage. You can be 100% safe in your spot, but 50 feet up or back, it can be the worst place to be. I always stand where I feel nearly 100% safe. Anything can happen though, even at that 100% spot. I can't speak for their spot since I didn't analyze it.
Pete
| Rattler | 05-11-2003 05:59 PM |
The SCCA has a press release up now:
[url]http://www.scca.com/news/press03_31.html[/url]
[url]http://www.scca.com/news/press03_31.html[/url]
| randy zimmer | 05-11-2003 06:38 PM |
pete
�
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your comment,
"Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get."
is kinda the opposite of the 2000 incident and now this one (so far).
Many of us who build cars would like to see where to improve but everything gets put under wraps and is hidden away, details are always sketchy.
Was this the same corner and/or direction as the 2000 incident?
rz
"Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get."
is kinda the opposite of the 2000 incident and now this one (so far).
Many of us who build cars would like to see where to improve but everything gets put under wraps and is hidden away, details are always sketchy.
Was this the same corner and/or direction as the 2000 incident?
rz
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-11-2003 06:49 PM |
This makes me think of the safety measures at the RAC rally last year (they had an * on the FIA list because of the incident in 2001).
Paths to specator areas cut through forest, marked.
Spectator pens "you must stand there" where you'd stand up to 20 people deep (because the pens were so narrow).
So it forced people to walk through the forest.... some in safe areas, some in unsafe areas.
At least they have big signs "Motorsport can be dangerous" warning spectators of the risk.
Personally, I have no desired to hit spectators with my rally car, and I'm sure they have no desire to get hit by a rally car.
The problem is when you drive flat out down a forest road, you're pretty likely to hit something.
I can't ever imagine taking my family to watch an event, except perhaps in the service area.
As a competitor, it is a calculated risk. You have safety equipment all around you.
Glenn
Paths to specator areas cut through forest, marked.
Spectator pens "you must stand there" where you'd stand up to 20 people deep (because the pens were so narrow).
So it forced people to walk through the forest.... some in safe areas, some in unsafe areas.
At least they have big signs "Motorsport can be dangerous" warning spectators of the risk.
Personally, I have no desired to hit spectators with my rally car, and I'm sure they have no desire to get hit by a rally car.
The problem is when you drive flat out down a forest road, you're pretty likely to hit something.
I can't ever imagine taking my family to watch an event, except perhaps in the service area.
As a competitor, it is a calculated risk. You have safety equipment all around you.
Glenn
| rallynutdon | 05-11-2003 06:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete 97 GS-T [/i]
[B]
patrolled, policed, yet put the spectators in a good area where they can see, take their pictures/video, and yet be 100% safe.
Nothing, absolutely nothing is or ever will be 100% safe. It's an unrealistic objective.
[B]
patrolled, policed, yet put the spectators in a good area where they can see, take their pictures/video, and yet be 100% safe.
Nothing, absolutely nothing is or ever will be 100% safe. It's an unrealistic objective.
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-11-2003 07:05 PM |
Re: pete
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]Was this the same corner and/or direction as the 2000 incident?[/B][/QUOTE]
Opposite direction, closer to start.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon[/i]
[B]Nothing, absolutely nothing is or ever will be 100% safe. It's an unrealistic objective.[/B][/QUOTE]
Of course, nowhere on this planet are you 100% safe. But you can put people along a stage road and say "Nobody is going to get hit here unless a 1 in a million occurance happens." And if you're worried about that 1 in a million occurance, then why not just eliminate spectating altogether? Hell, bleachers fall down at baseball games with fans in them. You might have a better chance of drowning in your own bathtub at home.
Pete
[B]Was this the same corner and/or direction as the 2000 incident?[/B][/QUOTE]
Opposite direction, closer to start.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallynutdon[/i]
[B]Nothing, absolutely nothing is or ever will be 100% safe. It's an unrealistic objective.[/B][/QUOTE]
Of course, nowhere on this planet are you 100% safe. But you can put people along a stage road and say "Nobody is going to get hit here unless a 1 in a million occurance happens." And if you're worried about that 1 in a million occurance, then why not just eliminate spectating altogether? Hell, bleachers fall down at baseball games with fans in them. You might have a better chance of drowning in your own bathtub at home.
Pete
| StuBeck | 05-11-2003 07:24 PM |
I worked at STPR and I know that for stages 7 and 10. We swept through the stages about an hour before the cars went out and just stopped whereever we saw people, told them where to stay (most were already in good areas) and moved them if they needed to. Does anyone know if something like this happened? We were pretty much the pre-sweep sweep vehicles.
| Tensen | 05-11-2003 07:28 PM |
it was done before the first run of the road (stage 2) but for the second run in reverse only 1 sweep vehicle came through (past where pete and I were) pretty quickly.
I'm also under the impression that the spectators in question had just moved from one side of the road to the other
I'm also under the impression that the spectators in question had just moved from one side of the road to the other
| Mopho | 05-11-2003 07:30 PM |
SS.com is up
they closed the site so as to not let family/friends of the people involved find out through hearsay
they closed the site so as to not let family/friends of the people involved find out through hearsay
| RallyDriver | 05-11-2003 07:40 PM |
Unwritten rule in Europe closes any stages on which fatal accidents took place during rally, due to respect for the victims. After the 2000 accident not a lot of conclusions were drawn by the organizators, exept that it was a great stage that had to be repeated 4 times during a day. English run became the best place for bunch of idiots, who sat in front of the tree, on which tragedy happened, with running cameras waiting for a next accident. I would like to see someone to finally decide (not necessary the organizators) and prohibit rally cars from running that stage.
R
R
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-11-2003 08:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by RallyDriver [/i]
[B]Unwritten rule in Europe closes any stages on which fatal accidents took place during rally, due to respect for the victims. After the 2000 accident not a lot of conclusions were drawn by the organizators, exept that it was a great stage that had to be repeated 4 times during a day. English run became the best place for bunch of idiots, who sat in front of the tree, on which tragedy happened, with running cameras waiting for a next accident. I would like to see someone to finally decide (not necessary the organizators) and prohibit rally cars from running that stage.
R [/B][/QUOTE]
That stage is a straightaway with 2 or 3 corners in the entire length. It's a dragstrip. Not to mention it gets VERY rough, especially around where the crash happened.
For a club event that focuses more on the seed 5+ crowd, I think this stage is too fast. I'd like to see them on a very twisty stage, keeping the speeds down, learning car control and how to read tulips/notes.
Pete
[B]Unwritten rule in Europe closes any stages on which fatal accidents took place during rally, due to respect for the victims. After the 2000 accident not a lot of conclusions were drawn by the organizators, exept that it was a great stage that had to be repeated 4 times during a day. English run became the best place for bunch of idiots, who sat in front of the tree, on which tragedy happened, with running cameras waiting for a next accident. I would like to see someone to finally decide (not necessary the organizators) and prohibit rally cars from running that stage.
R [/B][/QUOTE]
That stage is a straightaway with 2 or 3 corners in the entire length. It's a dragstrip. Not to mention it gets VERY rough, especially around where the crash happened.
For a club event that focuses more on the seed 5+ crowd, I think this stage is too fast. I'd like to see them on a very twisty stage, keeping the speeds down, learning car control and how to read tulips/notes.
Pete
| jprowland | 05-11-2003 08:19 PM |
I was co-driving in car #896 at the rally. I think it's pointless and destructive to speculate on anything at this point.
Michael Reidy and Peter Smith were NOT ordinary spectators, who might have been watching their first rally. Michael was a driver himself. These were rally-seasoned spectators, and I think the distinction needs to be made.
I do agree, tighter restrictions will have to be placed on spectators. Access should be governed, every spectator should be required to sign a waiver. Unfortunately, this requires more workers, and Club events are already stretched to their limit (Great North Woods had to cancel a stage due to lack of workers last October, for example, and you can bet that the remaining stages had almost a skeleton crew).
My condolences to the families, and I appreciate the professional way the Lesley and the others handled the situation. There's no cover-up, so the conspiracy theorists should just wait before spouting off. Like any other high-profile incident, they will make more details known when they become clear.
Michael Reidy and Peter Smith were NOT ordinary spectators, who might have been watching their first rally. Michael was a driver himself. These were rally-seasoned spectators, and I think the distinction needs to be made.
I do agree, tighter restrictions will have to be placed on spectators. Access should be governed, every spectator should be required to sign a waiver. Unfortunately, this requires more workers, and Club events are already stretched to their limit (Great North Woods had to cancel a stage due to lack of workers last October, for example, and you can bet that the remaining stages had almost a skeleton crew).
My condolences to the families, and I appreciate the professional way the Lesley and the others handled the situation. There's no cover-up, so the conspiracy theorists should just wait before spouting off. Like any other high-profile incident, they will make more details known when they become clear.
| jprowland | 05-11-2003 08:29 PM |
There's a discrepancy in the press releases. Some say that Martin Reidy was one of the spectators, some say Michael Reidy. They were brothers, and both drivers.
I believe it was probably Martin. Michael Reidy was driving the event and wouldn't have been at the incident area.
I met Martin once. He called me and asked to co-drive for him in his PGT Eclipse (unfortunately, I couldn't).
I believe it was probably Martin. Michael Reidy was driving the event and wouldn't have been at the incident area.
I met Martin once. He called me and asked to co-drive for him in his PGT Eclipse (unfortunately, I couldn't).
| Sean | 05-11-2003 08:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]rally-l archives: [url]http://cowboywww.squawk.com/majordomo/rally-l.archives[/url][/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks muchly but those archives only go up through 2000. Google doesn't have any more links to articles...I'll check the press release. :(
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
[B]rally-l archives: [url]http://cowboywww.squawk.com/majordomo/rally-l.archives[/url][/B][/QUOTE]
Thanks muchly but those archives only go up through 2000. Google doesn't have any more links to articles...I'll check the press release. :(
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| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-11-2003 08:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jprowland [/i]
[B]There's a discrepancy in the press releases. Some say that Martin Reidy was one of the spectators, some say Michael Reidy. They were brothers, and both drivers.
I believe it was probably Martin. Michael Reidy was driving the event and wouldn't have been at the incident area.
I met Martin once. He called me and asked to co-drive for him in his PGT Eclipse (unfortunately, I couldn't). [/B][/QUOTE]
It was Martin (Matt).
[B]There's a discrepancy in the press releases. Some say that Martin Reidy was one of the spectators, some say Michael Reidy. They were brothers, and both drivers.
I believe it was probably Martin. Michael Reidy was driving the event and wouldn't have been at the incident area.
I met Martin once. He called me and asked to co-drive for him in his PGT Eclipse (unfortunately, I couldn't). [/B][/QUOTE]
It was Martin (Matt).
| RS22b | 05-11-2003 10:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete 97 GS-T [/i]
[B]
That stage is a straightaway with 2 or 3 corners in the entire length. It's a dragstrip. Not to mention it gets VERY rough, especially around where the crash happened.
For a club event that focuses more on the seed 5+ crowd, I think this stage is too fast. I'd like to see them on a very twisty stage, keeping the speeds down, learning car control and how to read tulips/notes.
Pete [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree entirely. There should be more turns in a stage. English Run in the route book only had noted 3 tulips. Stages with many turns makes it easier for spectators to find a spot that they can enjoy and be in one of those 100% safe spots. It also keeps the speeds down as quoted and makes for a better event as a whole.
There was actually a really nice road that i decied to venture down not far from English Run. It was actually right up the road, had you continued past the parking area at the finish/start of English Run. ON the right side near the end of the road. Check into that if the event will still be happening in the future.
Billy
rally driven..............
[B]
That stage is a straightaway with 2 or 3 corners in the entire length. It's a dragstrip. Not to mention it gets VERY rough, especially around where the crash happened.
For a club event that focuses more on the seed 5+ crowd, I think this stage is too fast. I'd like to see them on a very twisty stage, keeping the speeds down, learning car control and how to read tulips/notes.
Pete [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree entirely. There should be more turns in a stage. English Run in the route book only had noted 3 tulips. Stages with many turns makes it easier for spectators to find a spot that they can enjoy and be in one of those 100% safe spots. It also keeps the speeds down as quoted and makes for a better event as a whole.
There was actually a really nice road that i decied to venture down not far from English Run. It was actually right up the road, had you continued past the parking area at the finish/start of English Run. ON the right side near the end of the road. Check into that if the event will still be happening in the future.
Billy
rally driven..............
| MJH | 05-11-2003 11:36 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete 97 GS-T [/i]
[B]
Anything possible that can be done w/o cancelling the event. Get a sweep Greyhound bus that goes through filled with militia men and have them pull people out of the stage and put 'em in the spectator spots. Anything!! Post people at all entrances to the forest with small post cards with the picture I got of the incident happening to use as a scare tactic. Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Here's something that I don't think is brought up enough, but I'm going to throw it out there:
Herding people into spectator spots is the worst possible thing the SCCA can do. If the SCCA has no official spots, and spectators are injured in places that they willingly went to, of their own volition, and without official guidance, there is clearly going to be a publicity problem.
If spectators are injured in a spot where they were required to stand, by order of the SCCA or [insert governing entity here], then there is a bigger publicity problem, and a liability issue that WILL kill the sport. A car killing two spectators in "their" spot is a terrible thing. A car plowing into an officially sanctioned spectator area magnifies the problem exponentially.
Having said that, I know nothing about the spot those two were in. I do know that there really no completely safe spots that are reasonably close to an open stage road.
Ramana Lagemann taught me that lesson at Sno-Drift in 2002. I was in one of those spots that all the little spectator guides claim is safe (and, I had been to a bunch of rallys before, so I thought I knew what I was doing). Then he came around a very quick but sloppy right hand turn and went wide as it began to straighten out. As he got the whole car off the outside of the exit of the turn, he hit a lone medium-sized tree at full speed. The car bounced off the tree, half spun across the stage and slid right at me (and I was a good way up the straight part of the road... on a 3 or 4 foot embankment, off the road a bit). His car stopped against the embankment, probably 15 feet away. It all happened so quickly that I don't even know if I moved.
It's just one of those things. There are so many variables, that you really don't know where a car will stop (insides of turns are just as dangerous as outsides in a sport where you can't have too much oversteer... just watch the footage of Makinen at Sweden in 2001). I think that if the SCCA were to further regulate spectator viewing, it would only compound the problem.
Matt.
[B]
Anything possible that can be done w/o cancelling the event. Get a sweep Greyhound bus that goes through filled with militia men and have them pull people out of the stage and put 'em in the spectator spots. Anything!! Post people at all entrances to the forest with small post cards with the picture I got of the incident happening to use as a scare tactic. Hand them out to everyone entering the woods. Look to see where people stand then. See how brave they get.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Here's something that I don't think is brought up enough, but I'm going to throw it out there:
Herding people into spectator spots is the worst possible thing the SCCA can do. If the SCCA has no official spots, and spectators are injured in places that they willingly went to, of their own volition, and without official guidance, there is clearly going to be a publicity problem.
If spectators are injured in a spot where they were required to stand, by order of the SCCA or [insert governing entity here], then there is a bigger publicity problem, and a liability issue that WILL kill the sport. A car killing two spectators in "their" spot is a terrible thing. A car plowing into an officially sanctioned spectator area magnifies the problem exponentially.
Having said that, I know nothing about the spot those two were in. I do know that there really no completely safe spots that are reasonably close to an open stage road.
Ramana Lagemann taught me that lesson at Sno-Drift in 2002. I was in one of those spots that all the little spectator guides claim is safe (and, I had been to a bunch of rallys before, so I thought I knew what I was doing). Then he came around a very quick but sloppy right hand turn and went wide as it began to straighten out. As he got the whole car off the outside of the exit of the turn, he hit a lone medium-sized tree at full speed. The car bounced off the tree, half spun across the stage and slid right at me (and I was a good way up the straight part of the road... on a 3 or 4 foot embankment, off the road a bit). His car stopped against the embankment, probably 15 feet away. It all happened so quickly that I don't even know if I moved.
It's just one of those things. There are so many variables, that you really don't know where a car will stop (insides of turns are just as dangerous as outsides in a sport where you can't have too much oversteer... just watch the footage of Makinen at Sweden in 2001). I think that if the SCCA were to further regulate spectator viewing, it would only compound the problem.
Matt.
| jackansi | 05-12-2003 08:56 AM |
From the Star Gazette ([url]http://www.stargazettenews.com/local/Molocal7.html[/url]). It has much more information than alot of the links so far.
MORRIS - Two Yonkers, N.Y. men died Saturday afternoon when a car competing in a high-speed performance rally left a remote forest road and slammed into them.
The crash killed rally spectators Martin Reidy, 35 and Peter Smith, 27. Reidy�s brother Michael, also from Yonkers, was one of the more than 50 competitors at Sawmill ClubRally (cq), based in Morris.
The driver of the high-performance Subaru WRX rally car, Peter P. Malaszuk, 35, of Bridgeport, Ct. and navigator Piotr (cq) Deren of Stamford, Ct., were not injured in the 4 p.m. crash, which occurred in Lycoming County�s Pine Township, about 2.5 miles west of Route 287 and five miles south of Morris.
State Trooper Patrick Weindorf said Malaszuk was driving the WRX on English Run Road, in the third timed stage of the competition. The vehicle was northbound at high speed when it crested a rise and became airborne. Out-of-control, it ran off the west side of the road and struck the men, then sheared off a tree and stopped, police said.
�They didn�t even know they had hit anyone until they got out of the vehicle,� Weindorf said. �That�s when they saw them.�
Morris Fire Chief Dean Kreger, who had an ambulance near the scene in case an accident occurred, said one of the men ended up under the vehicle and the other about 15 feet from the car.
�They were in pretty bad shape,� Kreger said. �They thought they had a little bit of a pulse from one of them, and they started to do a little work on him, but I think that was a mistake. He was pretty badly mangled.�
A third man who had been standing with Reidy and Smith taking pictures moved about 50 feet to the south about one minute before the car struck the men. �He said to me, �It just wasn�t my time,�� Kreger said.
Lycoming County Coroner Charles Keissling pronounced the men dead at the scene. Weindorf said alcohol was not involved in the accident and that he did not plan to file any charges against Malaszuk.
A navigator in one of the competition cars died in a 2001 crash about one mile from the scene of Saturday�s accident.
The crash ended the rally and sent competitors and their service crews home early. �We were supposed to put on a dinner for 255 people at our building,� Kreger said. �I think we ended up feeding about 70.�
The Sports Car Club of America�s �ClubRally� series brings together regional drivers for competition weekends. Saturday�s rally was a component of the Northeast Division Sports Car Club of America�s ClubRally Championship.
MORRIS - Two Yonkers, N.Y. men died Saturday afternoon when a car competing in a high-speed performance rally left a remote forest road and slammed into them.
The crash killed rally spectators Martin Reidy, 35 and Peter Smith, 27. Reidy�s brother Michael, also from Yonkers, was one of the more than 50 competitors at Sawmill ClubRally (cq), based in Morris.
The driver of the high-performance Subaru WRX rally car, Peter P. Malaszuk, 35, of Bridgeport, Ct. and navigator Piotr (cq) Deren of Stamford, Ct., were not injured in the 4 p.m. crash, which occurred in Lycoming County�s Pine Township, about 2.5 miles west of Route 287 and five miles south of Morris.
State Trooper Patrick Weindorf said Malaszuk was driving the WRX on English Run Road, in the third timed stage of the competition. The vehicle was northbound at high speed when it crested a rise and became airborne. Out-of-control, it ran off the west side of the road and struck the men, then sheared off a tree and stopped, police said.
�They didn�t even know they had hit anyone until they got out of the vehicle,� Weindorf said. �That�s when they saw them.�
Morris Fire Chief Dean Kreger, who had an ambulance near the scene in case an accident occurred, said one of the men ended up under the vehicle and the other about 15 feet from the car.
�They were in pretty bad shape,� Kreger said. �They thought they had a little bit of a pulse from one of them, and they started to do a little work on him, but I think that was a mistake. He was pretty badly mangled.�
A third man who had been standing with Reidy and Smith taking pictures moved about 50 feet to the south about one minute before the car struck the men. �He said to me, �It just wasn�t my time,�� Kreger said.
Lycoming County Coroner Charles Keissling pronounced the men dead at the scene. Weindorf said alcohol was not involved in the accident and that he did not plan to file any charges against Malaszuk.
A navigator in one of the competition cars died in a 2001 crash about one mile from the scene of Saturday�s accident.
The crash ended the rally and sent competitors and their service crews home early. �We were supposed to put on a dinner for 255 people at our building,� Kreger said. �I think we ended up feeding about 70.�
The Sports Car Club of America�s �ClubRally� series brings together regional drivers for competition weekends. Saturday�s rally was a component of the Northeast Division Sports Car Club of America�s ClubRally Championship.
| RallyMan555 | 05-12-2003 09:10 AM |
Yonkers men killed in Pennsylvania race
�
�
Yonkers men killed in Pennsylvania race
By MARCELA ROJAS AND YARON STEINBUCH
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: May 12, 2003)
YONKERS � Two city men were killed during the weekend at a road-rally race in Pennsylvania when they were struck by a car whose driver lost control.
The victims in the Morris, Pa., accident on Saturday were identified as Martin Reidy, 35, and Peter Smith, 27, by state police in Montoursville. They were pronounced dead at the scene by the Lycoming County coroner.
Reidy's wife, Bernadette, said last night that she learned of her husband's death from her sister two hours after the 4 p.m. accident. Her sister's husband took part in the rally.
"From what I understand, one of the cars in the rally hit a bump, went out of control and struck the two of them. They were killed instantly," she said. "I have never heard of this ever happening at a rally before."
Bernadette Reidy said her husband, an electrician who became involved with rally racing two years ago, traveled by himself to the event from his Teresa Avenue home early Saturday and was to return yesterday morning. There, he met up with Smith, both natives of Ireland and members of the Irish Motor Club of New York. The two friends were standing on the sidelines when the race car lost control. There are no ropes to separate the spectators from the course, she said.
Smith and his wife, Fiona, who also was a spectator at the race, were married 10 months ago and have no children, Bernadette Reidy said. The Smith family declined to comment last night.
"It just doesn't seem real to me at the moment," Bernadette Reidy said.
The accident occurred during the Ski Sawmill ClubRally, a race sponsored by the Sports Car Club of America. The driver of the car involved, 35-year-old Peter P. Malaszuk of Bridgeport, Conn., was not hurt. State police said yesterday that no charges had been filed against him.
The race was halted after the accident.
Efforts to reach Lesley Suddard, the rally chairman, for comment last night were unsuccessful.
The Ski Sawmill ClubRally, sanctioned by the Blue Mountain Region of the SCCA, has been held since 1988 in Morris. The rally consists of eight stages run over closed sections of rural roads by modified production vehicles. The length of the rally route is 54 miles, with the stages covering 30 miles.
The drivers race one car at a time against the clock, usually at one-minute intervals. Each car has a driver and a co-driver, or navigator. Between the racing stages, the cars use public roads and are required to obey traffic laws.
According to the race's Web site, about 60 cars were expected to take part in Saturday's event. Malaszuk's car was listed as a 2002 Subaru WRX.
In addition to his wife of 13 years, Reidy is survived by an 11-year-old daughter, Shannon, and 16-month-old son, Danny.
Reidy's wake will take place at Hodder and Son Funeral Home at 899 McLean Ave. from 7 to 9 p.m. tomorrow and from 2 to 4 p.m. and 7 to 9 p.m. Wednesday. His funeral will be on Thursday at St. John the Baptist Church, 670 Yonkers Ave. Funeral arrangements for Smith were unavailable.
By MARCELA ROJAS AND YARON STEINBUCH
THE JOURNAL NEWS
(Original publication: May 12, 2003)
YONKERS � Two city men were killed during the weekend at a road-rally race in Pennsylvania when they were struck by a car whose driver lost control.
The victims in the Morris, Pa., accident on Saturday were identified as Martin Reidy, 35, and Peter Smith, 27, by state police in Montoursville. They were pronounced dead at the scene by the Lycoming County coroner.
Reidy's wife, Bernadette, said last night that she learned of her husband's death from her sister two hours after the 4 p.m. accident. Her sister's husband took part in the rally.
"From what I understand, one of the cars in the rally hit a bump, went out of control and struck the two of them. They were killed instantly," she said. "I have never heard of this ever happening at a rally before."
Bernadette Reidy said her husband, an electrician who became involved with rally racing two years ago, traveled by himself to the event from his Teresa Avenue home early Saturday and was to return yesterday morning. There, he met up with Smith, both natives of Ireland and members of the Irish Motor Club of New York. The two friends were standing on the sidelines when the race car lost control. There are no ropes to separate the spectators from the course, she said.
Smith and his wife, Fiona, who also was a spectator at the race, were married 10 months ago and have no children, Bernadette Reidy said. The Smith family declined to comment last night.
"It just doesn't seem real to me at the moment," Bernadette Reidy said.
The accident occurred during the Ski Sawmill ClubRally, a race sponsored by the Sports Car Club of America. The driver of the car involved, 35-year-old Peter P. Malaszuk of Bridgeport, Conn., was not hurt. State police said yesterday that no charges had been filed against him.
The race was halted after the accident.
Efforts to reach Lesley Suddard, the rally chairman, for comment last night were unsuccessful.
The Ski Sawmill ClubRally, sanctioned by the Blue Mountain Region of the SCCA, has been held since 1988 in Morris. The rally consists of eight stages run over closed sections of rural roads by modified production vehicles. The length of the rally route is 54 miles, with the stages covering 30 miles.
The drivers race one car at a time against the clock, usually at one-minute intervals. Each car has a driver and a co-driver, or navigator. Between the racing stages, the cars use public roads and are required to obey traffic laws.
According to the race's Web site, about 60 cars were expected to take part in Saturday's event. Malaszuk's car was listed as a 2002 Subaru WRX.
In addition to his wife of 13 years, Reidy is survived by an 11-year-old daughter, Shannon, and 16-month-old son, Danny.
Reidy's wake will take place at Hodder and Son Funeral Home at 899 McLean Ave. from 7 to 9 p.m. tomorrow and from 2 to 4 p.m. and 7 to 9 p.m. Wednesday. His funeral will be on Thursday at St. John the Baptist Church, 670 Yonkers Ave. Funeral arrangements for Smith were unavailable.
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-12-2003 09:47 AM |
:( Hearing about their families really brings it home.
[quote]The driver of the high-performance Subaru WRX rally car,[/quote]
I doubt Subaru will like this piece of the news...
I swapped email with Jeff Burmiester, one of the SpecialStage.com operators --- they were concerned someone would post the names, which is odd, because no one really seemed to have any info - everyone waited for the press articles.
I still don't think they needed to shut the forums down; but I do understand their reasoning.
Glenn
[quote]The driver of the high-performance Subaru WRX rally car,[/quote]
I doubt Subaru will like this piece of the news...
I swapped email with Jeff Burmiester, one of the SpecialStage.com operators --- they were concerned someone would post the names, which is odd, because no one really seemed to have any info - everyone waited for the press articles.
I still don't think they needed to shut the forums down; but I do understand their reasoning.
Glenn
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-12-2003 10:29 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]I still don't think they needed to shut the forums down; but I do understand their reasoning.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think shutting them down was a good move, especially since there was chatter about the incident going on. First thing I did when I got back to Morris was 1. call friends & family to let them know I was ok (if they'd happen to hear anything). and 2. find people at the event who knew I was in that area and let them know I was ok.
Last thing people not at the rally want is news about deaths, and not knowing who it is and fearing the worst. It's best for the victims friends/family to hear it first before any other word on the incident gets out.
I give kudos to Jeff B. on this one.
Pete
[B]I still don't think they needed to shut the forums down; but I do understand their reasoning.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think shutting them down was a good move, especially since there was chatter about the incident going on. First thing I did when I got back to Morris was 1. call friends & family to let them know I was ok (if they'd happen to hear anything). and 2. find people at the event who knew I was in that area and let them know I was ok.
Last thing people not at the rally want is news about deaths, and not knowing who it is and fearing the worst. It's best for the victims friends/family to hear it first before any other word on the incident gets out.
I give kudos to Jeff B. on this one.
Pete
| jprowland | 05-12-2003 10:29 AM |
I hope this event highlights the critical need for more workers at these events. I'm probably preaching to the choir, but in my opinion, if you're not competing at an event nearby, you should be working. And I'm not talking about just competitors, I mean everyone here.
I'm firmly of the believe that to earn championship points for a season, a driver should be required to work at least one event in that championship. So, to earn NEDiv points, you would have to work an NEDiv event; to earn Pro points, you would have to work a national pro event; etc.
This is an excellent and proven way (in other racing series) of raising the necessary worker support. It's ok for the drivers, they don't have to worry about missing an event since everyone is required to miss an event. And the fans would love it, getting a chance to rub elbows with the top drivers.
More workers means more chances to control, or at least advise, spectators. I mean, wouldn't you listen to David Higgins or Mark Lovell if he told you that you were standing in an unsafe spot?
I'm firmly of the believe that to earn championship points for a season, a driver should be required to work at least one event in that championship. So, to earn NEDiv points, you would have to work an NEDiv event; to earn Pro points, you would have to work a national pro event; etc.
This is an excellent and proven way (in other racing series) of raising the necessary worker support. It's ok for the drivers, they don't have to worry about missing an event since everyone is required to miss an event. And the fans would love it, getting a chance to rub elbows with the top drivers.
More workers means more chances to control, or at least advise, spectators. I mean, wouldn't you listen to David Higgins or Mark Lovell if he told you that you were standing in an unsafe spot?
| randy zimmer | 05-12-2003 11:31 AM |
unsafe spot?
�
�
Don't know if the spot was unsafe.
News said photog was there earlier and the gentlemen involved were drivers.
Problem is anything can break anytime and with ruts, berms and trees, cars can ricochet and tumble. There is no where that is "safe".
You'd think the top row of the grandstand at Indy was safe but a wheel ended up there a few years ago.
More workers are more people exposed - the "magic tape" may need an upgrade.
rz
News said photog was there earlier and the gentlemen involved were drivers.
Problem is anything can break anytime and with ruts, berms and trees, cars can ricochet and tumble. There is no where that is "safe".
You'd think the top row of the grandstand at Indy was safe but a wheel ended up there a few years ago.
More workers are more people exposed - the "magic tape" may need an upgrade.
rz
| Subie Gal | 05-12-2003 11:52 AM |
wow.
really horrible thing to have happen. unfortunately, occasionally it does occur in this sport. :(
thoughts, prayers to the family and friends.
as well as best wishes to all involved in the rally. this has to be difficult for all involved to deal with.
thoughts - - hopefully SCCA will handle this in a professional manner. i wouldnt even know where to start. not sure there is a solution... not sure there's really a Problem in the first place. there will always be spectators. and there will always be spectators who stand where they please... that aside... is there realistically a "safe" place to stand? no.... not really.... spectators take a risk, just like anyone else involved in the sport.
just a shame that this happened :(
Jamie
really horrible thing to have happen. unfortunately, occasionally it does occur in this sport. :(
thoughts, prayers to the family and friends.
as well as best wishes to all involved in the rally. this has to be difficult for all involved to deal with.
thoughts - - hopefully SCCA will handle this in a professional manner. i wouldnt even know where to start. not sure there is a solution... not sure there's really a Problem in the first place. there will always be spectators. and there will always be spectators who stand where they please... that aside... is there realistically a "safe" place to stand? no.... not really.... spectators take a risk, just like anyone else involved in the sport.
just a shame that this happened :(
Jamie
| Mike Anson | 05-12-2003 12:36 PM |
Re: unsafe spot?
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]
News said photog was there earlier and the gentlemen involved were drivers.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
I get the impression that Pete Kuncis (Pete 97 GS-T) was the photographer.
[B]
News said photog was there earlier and the gentlemen involved were drivers.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
I get the impression that Pete Kuncis (Pete 97 GS-T) was the photographer.
| fengshui-fu | 05-12-2003 01:09 PM |
The problem I see here is that the news articles bring up certain things that make the motorsport of rallying look kinda bad. Like the fact that alcohol wasn't involved (how many times do they ask professional race car drivers this?). It'll definitely put SCCA Prorally/ClubRally in a tough spot politically with future events.
chris
chris
| rallykeith | 05-12-2003 01:11 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]wow.
really horrible thing to have happen. unfortunately, occasionally it does occur in this sport. :(
Jamie [/B][/QUOTE]
Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
Also, I think just as important as sending condolences to the families is sending condolences to those who were at the scene and especially to those who gave aid. I personally send them all my condolences and thanks them for helping. They know who they are. That is something they you can never forget, and they will feel the pain for years to come. Some may not even return to the sport.
Keith
[B]wow.
really horrible thing to have happen. unfortunately, occasionally it does occur in this sport. :(
Jamie [/B][/QUOTE]
Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
Also, I think just as important as sending condolences to the families is sending condolences to those who were at the scene and especially to those who gave aid. I personally send them all my condolences and thanks them for helping. They know who they are. That is something they you can never forget, and they will feel the pain for years to come. Some may not even return to the sport.
Keith
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-12-2003 01:23 PM |
Re: Re: unsafe spot?
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mike Anson [/i]
[B]
I get the impression that Pete Kuncis (Pete 97 GS-T) was the photographer. [/B][/QUOTE]
They weren't talking about me. I think it was someone further up the road.
[B]
I get the impression that Pete Kuncis (Pete 97 GS-T) was the photographer. [/B][/QUOTE]
They weren't talking about me. I think it was someone further up the road.
| jprowland | 05-12-2003 01:57 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by fengshui-fu [/i]
[B]The problem I see here is that the news articles bring up certain things that make the motorsport of rallying look kinda bad. Like the fact that alcohol wasn't involved (how many times do they ask professional race car drivers this?). It'll definitely put SCCA Prorally/ClubRally in a tough spot politically with future events.
chris [/B][/QUOTE]
I think the "alcohol" reference was to the spectators, not the drivers. Everyone knows that drinking is common among spectators of all forms of racing.
[B]The problem I see here is that the news articles bring up certain things that make the motorsport of rallying look kinda bad. Like the fact that alcohol wasn't involved (how many times do they ask professional race car drivers this?). It'll definitely put SCCA Prorally/ClubRally in a tough spot politically with future events.
chris [/B][/QUOTE]
I think the "alcohol" reference was to the spectators, not the drivers. Everyone knows that drinking is common among spectators of all forms of racing.
| jprowland | 05-12-2003 01:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallykeith [/i]
[B]Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
[/B][/QUOTE]
As far as I know, this is the first time spectators have been killed at a US rally, but it's happened a number of times in other countries.
[B]Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
[/B][/QUOTE]
As far as I know, this is the first time spectators have been killed at a US rally, but it's happened a number of times in other countries.
| Pinochle | 05-12-2003 02:28 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jprowland [/i]
[B]I think the "alcohol" reference was to the spectators, not the drivers. Everyone knows that drinking is common among spectators of all forms of racing. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think drugs should be banned from all sporting events. All they do is ruin things for everyone else.
From drunk people running around the woods, to drunken fights at hockey games.
Drugs are even ruining the club scene w/ the passing of the Rave Act last week.
However, drugs were not involved in this incident. The accident was just that. An accident.
Sometimes things just happen. The only way to really prevent such an occurance is to not have rallies. Which is OUT of the question!
[B]I think the "alcohol" reference was to the spectators, not the drivers. Everyone knows that drinking is common among spectators of all forms of racing. [/B][/QUOTE]
I think drugs should be banned from all sporting events. All they do is ruin things for everyone else.
From drunk people running around the woods, to drunken fights at hockey games.
Drugs are even ruining the club scene w/ the passing of the Rave Act last week.
However, drugs were not involved in this incident. The accident was just that. An accident.
Sometimes things just happen. The only way to really prevent such an occurance is to not have rallies. Which is OUT of the question!
| Subie Gal | 05-12-2003 02:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallykeith [/i]
[B]
Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
yes... it's happened before. many times unfortunately.
not sure how many times this has occurred in SCCA Pro Rally, but spectators die every year in rallies around the world.
Jamie
[B]
Really? I've only been around for about 10 years, but I've never heard of spectators being killed before. A very few number of competitors yes, but never specators.
Keith [/B][/QUOTE]
yes... it's happened before. many times unfortunately.
not sure how many times this has occurred in SCCA Pro Rally, but spectators die every year in rallies around the world.
Jamie
| Mopho | 05-12-2003 03:26 PM |
Re: unsafe spot?
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by randy zimmer [/i]
[B]
More workers are more people exposed - the "magic tape" may need an upgrade.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, the Magic tape, yes that will stop a car. I was once told to stand behind the tape, rather than move I pulled the tape over my head in front of me-that made me much safer! ( I was up on an embankment right in front of a crowd of people, so if the car made it up the bank and got me, even if I was in front of the tape, it was going to hit a hundred people in lawnchairs too!- STPR water crossing)
The other problem of more workers is that most don't have any rally experience or don't present themselves as an authority. I have been to many events where the marshal is some 12-16 year old kid, what kind of respect is that kid going to get from people 2-3+times his age. Additionally, I have seen marhsals that are more concerned with spectating for themselves as it is their first rally. Others don't even follow their own rules, Once I had a cop threaten to arrest me after I tried to cross a road right after the zero car passed through, after which the cop proceeded to chat with his buddies with his back turned to the stage and he was standing in the middle of a run off road on a snow covered stage. We can't have marshals out there with less experience than the spectators. (I know easier said than done) It won't help if the marshals are as much of the problem as the spectators.
An accident could happen anywhere, at anytime, there really is no safe spot but you are more likely to get killed by someone driving an SUV while talking on the cell, smoking, and slapping the kids in the back seat, than by a rally car!
Putting people in "pens" just increases the chance of a lot of people getting hit at the same time and increases liability. people should be handed information sheets as they enter a stage offering spectating tips and stating that they are there at there own risk.
[B]
More workers are more people exposed - the "magic tape" may need an upgrade.
rz [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, the Magic tape, yes that will stop a car. I was once told to stand behind the tape, rather than move I pulled the tape over my head in front of me-that made me much safer! ( I was up on an embankment right in front of a crowd of people, so if the car made it up the bank and got me, even if I was in front of the tape, it was going to hit a hundred people in lawnchairs too!- STPR water crossing)
The other problem of more workers is that most don't have any rally experience or don't present themselves as an authority. I have been to many events where the marshal is some 12-16 year old kid, what kind of respect is that kid going to get from people 2-3+times his age. Additionally, I have seen marhsals that are more concerned with spectating for themselves as it is their first rally. Others don't even follow their own rules, Once I had a cop threaten to arrest me after I tried to cross a road right after the zero car passed through, after which the cop proceeded to chat with his buddies with his back turned to the stage and he was standing in the middle of a run off road on a snow covered stage. We can't have marshals out there with less experience than the spectators. (I know easier said than done) It won't help if the marshals are as much of the problem as the spectators.
An accident could happen anywhere, at anytime, there really is no safe spot but you are more likely to get killed by someone driving an SUV while talking on the cell, smoking, and slapping the kids in the back seat, than by a rally car!
Putting people in "pens" just increases the chance of a lot of people getting hit at the same time and increases liability. people should be handed information sheets as they enter a stage offering spectating tips and stating that they are there at there own risk.
| jprowland | 05-12-2003 04:15 PM |
I agree, we need more worker education. In Britain, marshals are required to attend a multi-day workshop in order to receive certification. As far behind as we might be, I think the US is starting to catch up; for instance, Team O'Neil will host its first 4 hour worker school in June. I hope this incident will kick-start more similar schools.
At the very least, organizers should take on the burden of educating their own workers and assume that they don't know what they're doing, giving them maybe a quick 1-to-2-hour seminar before they leave. Not just giving details on the schedule, but how to actually do the job at hand.
This really ought to be the Regional Safety Steward's job, but perhaps the SCCA should appoint a new Worker Steward for each division that will take up this role.
A good start for aspiring workers is to read this Rally Worker's Primer (maybe all organizers should supply a similar copy to their volunteers in advance of the event):
[url]http://www.cricketlady.com/primer/rallyworkers/primer.html[/url]
Here is a quote from that link regarding uncontrollable spectators who won't listen:
[QUOTE] [B]The stupid are among us. Some people just don't get it. Someday, somewhere, you may be faced with an idiot or three that just HAVE to get as close as possible to the cars as they come past. Use your noise maker and motion for them to get back behind the barrier tape. Don't put yourself in danger to warn them. They have signed the waiver. They have listened to the safety lectures. They are grown ups. They are responsible for their safety just as you are responsible for yours.[/B] [/QUOTE]
One missing factor is the waiver, there really needs to be more enforcement of this in the US.
At the very least, organizers should take on the burden of educating their own workers and assume that they don't know what they're doing, giving them maybe a quick 1-to-2-hour seminar before they leave. Not just giving details on the schedule, but how to actually do the job at hand.
This really ought to be the Regional Safety Steward's job, but perhaps the SCCA should appoint a new Worker Steward for each division that will take up this role.
A good start for aspiring workers is to read this Rally Worker's Primer (maybe all organizers should supply a similar copy to their volunteers in advance of the event):
[url]http://www.cricketlady.com/primer/rallyworkers/primer.html[/url]
Here is a quote from that link regarding uncontrollable spectators who won't listen:
[QUOTE] [B]The stupid are among us. Some people just don't get it. Someday, somewhere, you may be faced with an idiot or three that just HAVE to get as close as possible to the cars as they come past. Use your noise maker and motion for them to get back behind the barrier tape. Don't put yourself in danger to warn them. They have signed the waiver. They have listened to the safety lectures. They are grown ups. They are responsible for their safety just as you are responsible for yours.[/B] [/QUOTE]
One missing factor is the waiver, there really needs to be more enforcement of this in the US.
| rallykeith | 05-12-2003 04:17 PM |
Yes it has happened else where in the world, but this is the first time here in the US. Rally here in the states only gets a fraction of the spectators that foriegn rally gets, and this was a club rally on top. Club rallies in general get very few spectators.
Keith
Keith
| Smelli Bugatti | 05-12-2003 04:37 PM |
It is sad but it happens in rally....fans can be really close to the action but MUST be aware of the danger they have put THEMSELVES in.
| wvonkessler | 05-12-2003 05:01 PM |
Sorry about the size of the images guys and gals. I don't know how to reduce them.
[IMG]http://www.carsrally.ca/images/Warning_Yellow.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.carsrally.ca/images/Prohibited_Area_Pink.jpg[/IMG]
And a link to the "Adventures of Hector Morron" courtesy of the the Defi-St. Agathe website:
[url]http://www.rallyedefi.com/pages/securite2.html[/url]
[IMG]http://www.carsrally.ca/images/Warning_Yellow.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.carsrally.ca/images/Prohibited_Area_Pink.jpg[/IMG]
And a link to the "Adventures of Hector Morron" courtesy of the the Defi-St. Agathe website:
[url]http://www.rallyedefi.com/pages/securite2.html[/url]
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