| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 11:11 AM |
Running a STX prepped car in ESP
�
�
like the title says...
The rules say that a STS prepped car is elligble for its equivelent street prepared class. Your allowed to run any sized tire that will fit on your STS legal rims.
question? is the wording a misprint now that we have STS, STX, and STU?
it does raise some interesting possibilities for the WRX (not the STI) in ESP.
Assuming this is a misprint, would a nationally STX prepped WRX with the biggest R-compunds you could fit on an 8" rim (I am thinking a 255 might fit) have a chance in ESP?
The rules say that a STS prepped car is elligble for its equivelent street prepared class. Your allowed to run any sized tire that will fit on your STS legal rims.
question? is the wording a misprint now that we have STS, STX, and STU?
it does raise some interesting possibilities for the WRX (not the STI) in ESP.
Assuming this is a misprint, would a nationally STX prepped WRX with the biggest R-compunds you could fit on an 8" rim (I am thinking a 255 might fit) have a chance in ESP?
| afpdl | 01-06-2005 11:22 AM |
why would you stick with an 8 inch rim? You are going to have stis in ESP running 285-315inch r compounds that you are already down on power to and have a less sophisticated diff system. I dont see why you would also want to run smaller wheels tires then the rest of the class.
| omahasubaru | 01-06-2005 11:23 AM |
[quote]...would a nationally STX prepped WRX with the biggest R-compunds you could fit on an 8" rim (I am thinking a 255 might fit) have a chance in ESP?[/quote] No way in Hell.
| KC | 01-06-2005 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE=afpdl]why would you stick with an 8 inch rim? [/QUOTE]
To expand on this... the only thing an STX car would have going for it in ESP is the STX Brakes rule.
I don't think Brakes will help you gain any time on the course, whereas an ESP prepped WRX can run....
1) Flaired fenders
2) Any width wheels (allowing for wider tires... 285? 315s?)
3) Change out diffs and add one to the front
Just off the top of my head.... the ESP WRX just can't run better brakes.
Locally, I'd say anything is possible. Can it be competitive on the local level once you add race tires? Sure.
On the National level or against National Level drivers in Camaros, Cobras, STis and EVOs? Not on your life unless you fully take advantage of all of ESP rules (make an ESP WRX) and just drop the brakes and skinny wheels.
--kC
To expand on this... the only thing an STX car would have going for it in ESP is the STX Brakes rule.
I don't think Brakes will help you gain any time on the course, whereas an ESP prepped WRX can run....
1) Flaired fenders
2) Any width wheels (allowing for wider tires... 285? 315s?)
3) Change out diffs and add one to the front
Just off the top of my head.... the ESP WRX just can't run better brakes.
Locally, I'd say anything is possible. Can it be competitive on the local level once you add race tires? Sure.
On the National level or against National Level drivers in Camaros, Cobras, STis and EVOs? Not on your life unless you fully take advantage of all of ESP rules (make an ESP WRX) and just drop the brakes and skinny wheels.
--kC
| dwx | 01-06-2005 12:08 PM |
I just don't think you can get enough power out of the car with its current gearing to make it competitive. With a good driver I could see it being about as competitive as the DSMs in the past. I think the DSMs had some tricks though to get the boost to spike and whatnot, whereas I can't think of any real equivilant tricks on the WRX that are ESP legal.
I put 275/45/16 tires on a 8" rim last year. But that size just makes the gearing even worse.
I put 275/45/16 tires on a 8" rim last year. But that size just makes the gearing even worse.
| AUTOwrXER | 01-06-2005 12:13 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]To expand on this... the only thing an STX car would have going for it in ESP is the STX Brakes rule.
I don't think Brakes will help you gain any time on the course, whereas an ESP prepped WRX can run....
1) Flaired fenders
2) Any width wheels (allowing for wider tires... 285? 315s?)
3) Change out diffs and add one to the front
Just off the top of my head.... the ESP WRX just can't run better brakes.
Locally, I'd say anything is possible. Can it be competitive on the local level once you add race tires? Sure.
On the National level or against National Level drivers in Camaros, Cobras, STis and EVOs? Not on your life unless you fully take advantage of all of ESP rules (make an ESP WRX) and just drop the brakes and skinny wheels.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I'll second that. The only advantage to the STX/U ruleset is the brakes, and you aren't going to get much better than the factory STi brakes on an autocross course. It was a good thought, but I don't think it's a loophole.
I don't think Brakes will help you gain any time on the course, whereas an ESP prepped WRX can run....
1) Flaired fenders
2) Any width wheels (allowing for wider tires... 285? 315s?)
3) Change out diffs and add one to the front
Just off the top of my head.... the ESP WRX just can't run better brakes.
Locally, I'd say anything is possible. Can it be competitive on the local level once you add race tires? Sure.
On the National level or against National Level drivers in Camaros, Cobras, STis and EVOs? Not on your life unless you fully take advantage of all of ESP rules (make an ESP WRX) and just drop the brakes and skinny wheels.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I'll second that. The only advantage to the STX/U ruleset is the brakes, and you aren't going to get much better than the factory STi brakes on an autocross course. It was a good thought, but I don't think it's a loophole.
| Scooby South | 01-06-2005 12:16 PM |
Thinking about rims...17x9 5Zigens with 275/40/17 Will work on a STi....The offset has to be out there tho...like a 32 maybe??? I know of one STi that has fitted 305's but not practical as the rolling diameter weighs against good turnin...
As for your question...at a local level...sure why not...at a national event...with 255's would be sufficient..but your down on power...I don't think you can change turbo's in ESP...ESP is a torque class..and a stock 2.0 with a stock turbo isn't going to cut it...
figure Stranos has about 330 WHP in his Camaro...some of the Cobra's are touching 375 with WAY more low end Grunt over a WRX....suspension is pretty much the same from STX to ESP with some minor differences...
Good luck if you plan to campaign in ESP...should be a fun year in that respect
Bill
As for your question...at a local level...sure why not...at a national event...with 255's would be sufficient..but your down on power...I don't think you can change turbo's in ESP...ESP is a torque class..and a stock 2.0 with a stock turbo isn't going to cut it...
figure Stranos has about 330 WHP in his Camaro...some of the Cobra's are touching 375 with WAY more low end Grunt over a WRX....suspension is pretty much the same from STX to ESP with some minor differences...
Good luck if you plan to campaign in ESP...should be a fun year in that respect
Bill
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 12:55 PM |
Nah, I got an EVO that I am prepping for ESP. I was reading the rules and saw the eligibility for the STS and was curious.
KC, besides the big brakes you also gain the adjustable rear end links. Those are definately not allowed under SP rules. Under STX rules you have more alignment options available than in ESP.
So I guess another question is how about the STI or an EVO prepped for STU. Where do you think you will get the best overall performance gains? ESP or STU?
The biggest limitation the EVO has in STU is the clutch. Beyond that, it's a close argument.
[QUOTE=afpdl]why would you stick with an 8 inch rim? You are going to have stis in ESP running 285-315inch r compounds that you are already down on power to and have a less sophisticated diff system. I dont see why you would also want to run smaller wheels tires then the rest of the class.[/QUOTE]
It's required by the eligibility rules. For STX you must run no wider than a 8" rim.
KC, besides the big brakes you also gain the adjustable rear end links. Those are definately not allowed under SP rules. Under STX rules you have more alignment options available than in ESP.
So I guess another question is how about the STI or an EVO prepped for STU. Where do you think you will get the best overall performance gains? ESP or STU?
The biggest limitation the EVO has in STU is the clutch. Beyond that, it's a close argument.
[QUOTE=afpdl]why would you stick with an 8 inch rim? You are going to have stis in ESP running 285-315inch r compounds that you are already down on power to and have a less sophisticated diff system. I dont see why you would also want to run smaller wheels tires then the rest of the class.[/QUOTE]
It's required by the eligibility rules. For STX you must run no wider than a 8" rim.
| KC | 01-06-2005 01:02 PM |
Hmm... Still, down on wider wheels, flaired fenders (which allowes wider tires). Brakes now are a wash since the STi brakes are decent.
An ESP prepped car for ESP will still be better than an STU car prepped for ESP.
Adjustable endlinks? I think with the other allowances in ESP, you wouldn't need them.
An ESP prepped car for ESP will still be better than an STU car prepped for ESP.
Adjustable endlinks? I think with the other allowances in ESP, you wouldn't need them.
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 02:25 PM |
In ESP you can't reflash the ECU. If you think you can, show me the rule that explicitly allows you to relfash an ECU on a turbo car in SP trim. I know alternate controls are allowed, but the ECU has to remain in it's original configuration as far as I am aware of (15.10.C)
but even so, the power gains achieved by reflashing are about the same as you can get with a piggyback ECU.
As for STU vs ESP, I did pretty well with my EVO with just coilovers and R-Compounds. Until I put the new clutch in I could have either gone with STU or ESP, but now that the clutch and lightened flywheel are in, I am commited to ESP.
I suspect your right, the difference with the lightened flywheel is amazing...
but even so, the power gains achieved by reflashing are about the same as you can get with a piggyback ECU.
As for STU vs ESP, I did pretty well with my EVO with just coilovers and R-Compounds. Until I put the new clutch in I could have either gone with STU or ESP, but now that the clutch and lightened flywheel are in, I am commited to ESP.
I suspect your right, the difference with the lightened flywheel is amazing...
| trhoppe | 01-06-2005 03:05 PM |
15.1.D
"Any computer contorol blah blah blah, as long as turbo car's don't touch any turbo settings blah blah"
Same thing as in STX.
You can mess with anything ECU, as long as you don't touch boost.
We will either be using a UTEC or ECUtek, depending on a few factors. One of them is not legality. If you tell me my ECUtek is illegal, prove it bud ;)
Even though my car was "so much faster and I must have had boost mods" last year according to a few of my competitors, no one protested my ECUtek, hmmmmm ;)
-Tom
"Any computer contorol blah blah blah, as long as turbo car's don't touch any turbo settings blah blah"
Same thing as in STX.
You can mess with anything ECU, as long as you don't touch boost.
We will either be using a UTEC or ECUtek, depending on a few factors. One of them is not legality. If you tell me my ECUtek is illegal, prove it bud ;)
Even though my car was "so much faster and I must have had boost mods" last year according to a few of my competitors, no one protested my ECUtek, hmmmmm ;)
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 01-06-2005 03:45 PM |
It's not going to be that simple, and it's going to take a protest to prove/disprove a reflash's eligibility. You are changing the device which controls boost, whether or not you actually do change the boost map.
| afpdl | 01-06-2005 03:48 PM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]It's required by the eligibility rules. For STX you must run no wider than a 8" rim.[/QUOTE]
But whats the point of running it under stx rules? I seriously doubt some lateral links and brakes are going to make up more time then a catless exhaust and bigger wheels and tires.
But whats the point of running it under stx rules? I seriously doubt some lateral links and brakes are going to make up more time then a catless exhaust and bigger wheels and tires.
| trhoppe | 01-06-2005 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]It's not going to be that simple, and it's going to take a protest to prove/disprove a reflashe's eligibility. You are changing the device which controls boost, whether or not you actually do change the boost map.[/QUOTE]
I guess thats what I meant. I believe it is legal and if I want, I will run it until a protest disproves it.
Running a UTEC doesn't change anything though. You could be running a ECUtekked UTEC ;) :lol:
-Tom
I guess thats what I meant. I believe it is legal and if I want, I will run it until a protest disproves it.
Running a UTEC doesn't change anything though. You could be running a ECUtekked UTEC ;) :lol:
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 01-06-2005 05:17 PM |
Exactly, and that's the other issue that needs to be resolved in all classes (especially stock). I've rigged the UTEC so that it can't possibly affect boost, but that doesn't prove that my stock ECU hasn't been touched. Of course, anyone with Delta Dash is welcome to check it out, but the protest shed doesn't own that software...
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 05:20 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]15.1.D
"Any computer contorol blah blah blah, as long as turbo car's don't touch any turbo settings blah blah"
Same thing as in STX.
You can mess with anything ECU, as long as you don't touch boost.
We will either be using a UTEC or ECUtek, depending on a few factors. One of them is not legality. If you tell me my ECUtek is illegal, prove it bud ;)
Even though my car was "so much faster and I must have had boost mods" last year according to a few of my competitors, no one protested my ECUtek, hmmmmm ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom,
The wording for 15.1.D says
[QUOTE]
[i][b]Alternate[/b][/i] computer control modules may be used whenever an equivlent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, [i]alternate[/i] computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injection is allowed. Direct turbocharger boost control by alternate computer control is not since there is no equivelent mechanical allowance.
[/quote]
Alternate != any
No where does it say that you can explicitly reprogram the ECU in street prepared. Alternate computer controls like the XEDE are legal only for fuel and ignition changes. I suspect the Cobb-port might be legal too (if it's a piggyback system), but I don't know much about that product.
STX/STU is very different.
14.10.D.1 explicitly allows the reprogramming of the ECU as long as the boost parameters are not touched.
[url]http://www.scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2005SoloRules.pdf[/url]
"Any computer contorol blah blah blah, as long as turbo car's don't touch any turbo settings blah blah"
Same thing as in STX.
You can mess with anything ECU, as long as you don't touch boost.
We will either be using a UTEC or ECUtek, depending on a few factors. One of them is not legality. If you tell me my ECUtek is illegal, prove it bud ;)
Even though my car was "so much faster and I must have had boost mods" last year according to a few of my competitors, no one protested my ECUtek, hmmmmm ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Tom,
The wording for 15.1.D says
[QUOTE]
[i][b]Alternate[/b][/i] computer control modules may be used whenever an equivlent change to the conventional system is allowed. For example, [i]alternate[/i] computer module control of ignition settings or fuel injection is allowed. Direct turbocharger boost control by alternate computer control is not since there is no equivelent mechanical allowance.
[/quote]
Alternate != any
No where does it say that you can explicitly reprogram the ECU in street prepared. Alternate computer controls like the XEDE are legal only for fuel and ignition changes. I suspect the Cobb-port might be legal too (if it's a piggyback system), but I don't know much about that product.
STX/STU is very different.
14.10.D.1 explicitly allows the reprogramming of the ECU as long as the boost parameters are not touched.
[url]http://www.scca.com/_filelibrary/File/2005SoloRules.pdf[/url]
| trhoppe | 01-06-2005 05:25 PM |
I would consider the ECUtek an "alternate control module" since I can plug in a PC and control it unlike the stock ECU.
-Tom
-Tom
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 05:44 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I would consider the ECUtek an "alternate control module" since I can plug in a PC and control it unlike the stock ECU.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol: that's a stretch of the rules.... Do you need your PC plugged in to run the ECUTEK? no not really...
I am emailing Doug Gill to clarify this.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol: that's a stretch of the rules.... Do you need your PC plugged in to run the ECUTEK? no not really...
I am emailing Doug Gill to clarify this.
| jmott | 01-06-2005 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Hmm... Still, down on wider wheels, flaired fenders (which allowes wider tires). Brakes now are a wash since the STi brakes are decent.
An ESP prepped car for ESP will still be better than an STU car prepped for ESP.
Adjustable endlinks? I think with the other allowances in ESP, you wouldn't need them.[/QUOTE]
*decent*?
lol
they are freaking monoblock monsters
they are awesome =)
just put a good pad in there
An ESP prepped car for ESP will still be better than an STU car prepped for ESP.
Adjustable endlinks? I think with the other allowances in ESP, you wouldn't need them.[/QUOTE]
*decent*?
lol
they are freaking monoblock monsters
they are awesome =)
just put a good pad in there
| trhoppe | 01-06-2005 05:50 PM |
Clarification would be the best idea.
I don't think its that much of a stretch. [i]Alternate computer modules[/i]. If its not stock its alternate IMHO.
-Tom
I don't think its that much of a stretch. [i]Alternate computer modules[/i]. If its not stock its alternate IMHO.
-Tom
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 05:57 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Clarification would be the best idea.
I don't think its that much of a stretch. [i]Alternate computer modules[/i]. If its not stock its alternate IMHO.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My letter to Doug Gill
[QUOTE]
Hi Doug!
I need a rule clarification on the eligibility for reprogramming the stock ECU in a similar fashion to what is already allowed under Street touring.
I am under the impression that the rules (15.1.D in particular) do not have any allowance for reprogramming the stock ECU. I have talked with many competitors who are intending on re-flashing their ECU�s. Many of these participants also run WRXs, STIs and EVOs where the boost control issues come into play as well.
[list][*]Can I (as an turbocharged car owner competing in SP ) reprogram my ECU at all if it remains in the stock housing? [*]I know I can use alternate computer control modules; does this extend to the fuel and ignition tables programmed into my stock ECU? [*]Does the definition of �alternate control module� extend it�s definition to the laptop used to reprogram the ECU? [*]What is the definition of an �alternate computer control module� ? [/list]
Assuming the ECU reprogramming is not legal, I did notice a possible loophole in the SP eligibility rules. If I prep my EVO for STU, can I run it in ESP using the STS eligibility rules? The eligibility rules are written for STS cars. Is this a typo now that we have STS, STX and STU? This would allow for the ECU re-flashing as long as the car was properly prepared for Street touring.
Thanks for your time
Chris
[/QUOTE]
We shall see.
I don't think its that much of a stretch. [i]Alternate computer modules[/i]. If its not stock its alternate IMHO.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My letter to Doug Gill
[QUOTE]
Hi Doug!
I need a rule clarification on the eligibility for reprogramming the stock ECU in a similar fashion to what is already allowed under Street touring.
I am under the impression that the rules (15.1.D in particular) do not have any allowance for reprogramming the stock ECU. I have talked with many competitors who are intending on re-flashing their ECU�s. Many of these participants also run WRXs, STIs and EVOs where the boost control issues come into play as well.
[list][*]Can I (as an turbocharged car owner competing in SP ) reprogram my ECU at all if it remains in the stock housing? [*]I know I can use alternate computer control modules; does this extend to the fuel and ignition tables programmed into my stock ECU? [*]Does the definition of �alternate control module� extend it�s definition to the laptop used to reprogram the ECU? [*]What is the definition of an �alternate computer control module� ? [/list]
Assuming the ECU reprogramming is not legal, I did notice a possible loophole in the SP eligibility rules. If I prep my EVO for STU, can I run it in ESP using the STS eligibility rules? The eligibility rules are written for STS cars. Is this a typo now that we have STS, STX and STU? This would allow for the ECU re-flashing as long as the car was properly prepared for Street touring.
Thanks for your time
Chris
[/QUOTE]
We shall see.
| joey1313 | 01-06-2005 06:12 PM |
I ran a reflash last year in my WRX in STX. I interpretted the rules just like Tom. Maybe I am reading what yall are trying to say wrong?
Rule 14.10.D.1
Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing.
Traction contol parameters may not be altered. Altered engine controllers may not alter boost levels in forced induction engines.
I read that to mean I can use a reflash as long as I don't mess with boost levels.
Rule 14.10.D.1
Reprogrammed ECU may be used in the standard housing.
Traction contol parameters may not be altered. Altered engine controllers may not alter boost levels in forced induction engines.
I read that to mean I can use a reflash as long as I don't mess with boost levels.
| trhoppe | 01-06-2005 06:15 PM |
What Chris is talking about are the ESP rules and not the STX/STU rules.
-Tom
-Tom
| ChrisW | 01-06-2005 06:19 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]What Chris is talking about are the ESP rules and not the STX/STU rules.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
true. But the other question is can we run a STX or STU prepped car in SP. The rules allow STS, but I wonder if that's a typo.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
true. But the other question is can we run a STX or STU prepped car in SP. The rules allow STS, but I wonder if that's a typo.
| joey1313 | 01-06-2005 06:23 PM |
I see said the dumb guy.
| joey1313 | 01-06-2005 06:24 PM |
I read 15.1.d as that I can have a reflash. Hope your email gets this clarified.
| ChrisW | 01-07-2005 08:17 PM |
Doug's response
�
�
[QUOTE]
From: Doug Gill [mailto:[email�protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:53 PM
To: Chris Warner
Subject: RE: Rule clarification on street prepared engine management rules.
Hi, Chris,
15.9.A says, "Any ignition setting, adjustment, or system may be used." If you want to re-program the ignition map/program in the stock ECU, have at it! "Any" means "any." There are no restrictions to the ignition system and ignition controls (mechanical or electronic).
15.10.C says, "Carburetors, fuel injection, intercoolers, and intake manifolds are unrestricted." "Unrestricted" means "unrestricted." You are welcome to re-program the fuel injection map/program in the standard ECU, too.
Now there is no allowance to re-program the turbo/supercharger programs on vehicles so equipped. It's similar in ST - no re-programming of the boost control programs. Since both ST and SP do not allow boost pressure control changes, a Street Touring-compliant ECU is legal in SP.
The concern with re-flashing the ECU on a turbo/supercharged car is most aftermarket programs change the boost control program along with the fuel and ignition programs. This is not allowed by the rules. Only the fuel and ignition programs can be changed.
- In SP, you can change anything pertaining to fuel and ignition including reprogramming the ECU in or out of the standard housing. If any legal changes you make increase the boost pressure without changing any of the boost controls (mechanical or electronic), that's allowed.
- In SP, you can change fuel and ignition tables wherever they are, including the standard ECU.
- In SP, anything can be used in the fuel and/or ignition systems, including a laptop.
- Before I define "alternate computer control module," let me know what Rule it's coming from. ;)
It may be a typo, but it has not been brought to the attention of the SEB as a clarification. So I'd have to say no, an STU-prepped vehicle is not necessarily legal for SP classes unless it's SP compliant alone.
If you would like to ask the SEB, write a letter and send it by me ([email�protected] comes to me anyway). But they may say, "No!"
If you just run in ESP, who would care? Just think about it before you ask the SEB. Sometimes it may be best not to ask. ;)
Hope this helps.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
[/QUOTE]
This is one of the few cases where I am happy to be wrong :p
From: Doug Gill [mailto:[email�protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 4:53 PM
To: Chris Warner
Subject: RE: Rule clarification on street prepared engine management rules.
Hi, Chris,
15.9.A says, "Any ignition setting, adjustment, or system may be used." If you want to re-program the ignition map/program in the stock ECU, have at it! "Any" means "any." There are no restrictions to the ignition system and ignition controls (mechanical or electronic).
15.10.C says, "Carburetors, fuel injection, intercoolers, and intake manifolds are unrestricted." "Unrestricted" means "unrestricted." You are welcome to re-program the fuel injection map/program in the standard ECU, too.
Now there is no allowance to re-program the turbo/supercharger programs on vehicles so equipped. It's similar in ST - no re-programming of the boost control programs. Since both ST and SP do not allow boost pressure control changes, a Street Touring-compliant ECU is legal in SP.
The concern with re-flashing the ECU on a turbo/supercharged car is most aftermarket programs change the boost control program along with the fuel and ignition programs. This is not allowed by the rules. Only the fuel and ignition programs can be changed.
- In SP, you can change anything pertaining to fuel and ignition including reprogramming the ECU in or out of the standard housing. If any legal changes you make increase the boost pressure without changing any of the boost controls (mechanical or electronic), that's allowed.
- In SP, you can change fuel and ignition tables wherever they are, including the standard ECU.
- In SP, anything can be used in the fuel and/or ignition systems, including a laptop.
- Before I define "alternate computer control module," let me know what Rule it's coming from. ;)
It may be a typo, but it has not been brought to the attention of the SEB as a clarification. So I'd have to say no, an STU-prepped vehicle is not necessarily legal for SP classes unless it's SP compliant alone.
If you would like to ask the SEB, write a letter and send it by me ([email�protected] comes to me anyway). But they may say, "No!"
If you just run in ESP, who would care? Just think about it before you ask the SEB. Sometimes it may be best not to ask. ;)
Hope this helps.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
[/QUOTE]
This is one of the few cases where I am happy to be wrong :p
| joey1313 | 01-07-2005 09:32 PM |
ChrisW....Thanks for getting that clarified for us. If it was illegal, you would've saved me money for parts I couldn't use.
| ChrisW | 01-07-2005 09:44 PM |
[QUOTE=joey1313]ChrisW....Thanks for getting that clarified for us. If it was illegal, you would've saved me money for parts I couldn't use.[/QUOTE]
no problem. I am more than happy to admit that I am wrong on this issue. It does change my setup for next season too.
no problem. I am more than happy to admit that I am wrong on this issue. It does change my setup for next season too.
| MNbiker | 01-07-2005 11:57 PM |
Aw crap! :furious:
I wanted to see if Tom could go 3 for 3 on protests! :lol: :devil:
-Steve
I wanted to see if Tom could go 3 for 3 on protests! :lol: :devil:
-Steve
| trhoppe | 01-08-2005 12:02 AM |
I'm already 4 for 4 :banana:
-Tom
-Tom
| MNbiker | 01-08-2005 08:46 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I'm already 4 for 4 :banana:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Boost, brakes.....
What two did I miss? :eek:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Boost, brakes.....
What two did I miss? :eek:
| Draken | 01-08-2005 11:24 AM |
You're really 4 for 5 Tom. You lost the protest about being a *****.
:)
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
:)
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
| trhoppe | 01-08-2005 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=MNbiker]Boost, brakes.....
What two did I miss? :eek:[/QUOTE]
Boost and intake at a National Tour in Ft. Myers ;)
-Tom
What two did I miss? :eek:[/QUOTE]
Boost and intake at a National Tour in Ft. Myers ;)
-Tom
| trhoppe | 01-08-2005 05:49 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]You're really 4 for 5 Tom. You lost the protest about being a *****.
:)
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Dear Stickboy,
Eat Me
Sincerely,
-Tom
:lol:
:)
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Dear Stickboy,
Eat Me
Sincerely,
-Tom
:lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 01-10-2005 09:43 PM |
Chris,
Thanks for getting that clarification. Now how do we pass this along to the "traditional" ESP drivers? ;)
Thanks for getting that clarification. Now how do we pass this along to the "traditional" ESP drivers? ;)
| MNbiker | 01-10-2005 11:18 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Chris,
Thanks for getting that clarification. Now how do we pass this along to the "traditional" ESP drivers? ;)[/QUOTE]
Why bother? SP cars have been "chipping" their cars and using piggybacks for years to change fuel & timing settings. :confused:
What other ESP competitors will be most concerned about is changes to boost, and nothing in Doug's reponse sheds new light on that subject.
-Steve
(who's now happily playing with whatever engine management system he wants in SM2.) ;)
Thanks for getting that clarification. Now how do we pass this along to the "traditional" ESP drivers? ;)[/QUOTE]
Why bother? SP cars have been "chipping" their cars and using piggybacks for years to change fuel & timing settings. :confused:
What other ESP competitors will be most concerned about is changes to boost, and nothing in Doug's reponse sheds new light on that subject.
-Steve
(who's now happily playing with whatever engine management system he wants in SM2.) ;)
| AUTOwrXER | 01-11-2005 12:07 PM |
What they will be concerned about is that the same control method allowed for fuel and timing (ECU reflash) also controls the boost system. There is no way to know if a STi or Evo tampered with boost when they reflashed the ECU. This is further complicated by the fact that boost levels will increase by permissible modifications. It will be interesting how the protest shed determines how much boost is too much boost, given that they can't tell if the boost map was modified.
| trhoppe | 01-11-2005 12:24 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]What they will be concerned about is that the same control method allowed for fuel and timing (ECU reflash) also controls the boost system. There is no way to know if a STi or Evo tampered with boost when they reflashed the ECU. This is further complicated by the fact that boost levels will increase by permissible modifications. It will be interesting how the protest shed determines how much boost is too much boost, given that they can't tell if the boost map was modified.[/QUOTE]
What is different about the ECUtek and the UTEC in this scenario? The SAME EXACT argument can be had for any car running any piggyback system, since you can piggyback a ECUtekked ECU.
-Tom
What is different about the ECUtek and the UTEC in this scenario? The SAME EXACT argument can be had for any car running any piggyback system, since you can piggyback a ECUtekked ECU.
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 01-11-2005 01:05 PM |
With the UTEC you can physically bypass all boost control functions. You can see if this has been done simply by looking at the way it is installed. There is no way to verify this (without software) in the case of a reflash. That's what makes them different, IMO.
If you are piggybacking an ECUtekked ECU, it is only so that you can cheat and pass the visual inspection. It's still cheating, and the problem with reflashes is that there is no way to detect them with current protest methods. Basically, you can cheat and get away with it as long as you aren't above a boost level that the protest chief determines could be caused by other allowed modifications.
If you are piggybacking an ECUtekked ECU, it is only so that you can cheat and pass the visual inspection. It's still cheating, and the problem with reflashes is that there is no way to detect them with current protest methods. Basically, you can cheat and get away with it as long as you aren't above a boost level that the protest chief determines could be caused by other allowed modifications.
| trhoppe | 01-11-2005 02:05 PM |
What I'm saying, is that you can have that UTEC installed in your "foolproof" way on an ECUtekked ECU. No one will ever know. At least I'm *telling* people that the car will have ECUtek* I don't see what makes it different at all. If there was no way to flash a UTEC'd car then hell yes they would be different, but they are not at all.
-Tom
*this has not been determined yet, just an example ;)
-Tom
*this has not been determined yet, just an example ;)
| MNbiker | 01-11-2005 10:40 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]What I'm saying, is that you can have that UTEC installed in your "foolproof" way on an ECUtekked ECU.[/QUOTE]
Bingo! Having some external piggyback that doesn't control boost proves absolutely nothing. It could merely be a smokecreen for your illegal ECU reflash!
-Steve
(who can't wait to watch the officials step all over themselves when hit with a protest on this issue.)
Bingo! Having some external piggyback that doesn't control boost proves absolutely nothing. It could merely be a smokecreen for your illegal ECU reflash!
-Steve
(who can't wait to watch the officials step all over themselves when hit with a protest on this issue.)
| Templar | 01-12-2005 03:26 AM |
And people wonder why the SCCA is frightened of turbocharged cars. :lol: :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 01-13-2005 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]What I'm saying, is that you can have that UTEC installed in your "foolproof" way on an ECUtekked ECU. No one will ever know. At least I'm *telling* people that the car will have ECUtek* I don't see what makes it different at all. If there was no way to flash a UTEC'd car then hell yes they would be different, but they are not at all.
-Tom
*this has not been determined yet, just an example ;)[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but that same issue exists in stock. Someone who have to be a VERY dedicated cheater to have one shop reflash an ECU and another tune the UTEC.
-Tom
*this has not been determined yet, just an example ;)[/QUOTE]
Agreed, but that same issue exists in stock. Someone who have to be a VERY dedicated cheater to have one shop reflash an ECU and another tune the UTEC.
| AUTOwrXER | 01-13-2005 02:29 PM |
[QUOTE=Templar]And people wonder why the SCCA is frightened of turbocharged cars. :lol: :lol:[/QUOTE]
Exactly. I still think the best solution is to let the ST and SP classes run as much boost as they want with the factory hardware, and class the cars accordingly. Didn't they do that in T1?
Exactly. I still think the best solution is to let the ST and SP classes run as much boost as they want with the factory hardware, and class the cars accordingly. Didn't they do that in T1?
| trhoppe | 01-13-2005 02:34 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Agreed, but that same issue exists in stock. Someone who have to be a VERY dedicated cheater to have one shop reflash an ECU and another tune the UTEC.[/QUOTE]
I'm not saying it doesn't exist in stock. Also, have you ever seen a cheater that wasn't dedicated. If they were going to cheat half assed, thats kinda stupid ;)
-Tom
I'm not saying it doesn't exist in stock. Also, have you ever seen a cheater that wasn't dedicated. If they were going to cheat half assed, thats kinda stupid ;)
-Tom
| KC | 01-13-2005 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I'm not saying it doesn't exist in stock. Also, have you ever seen a cheater that wasn't dedicated. If they were going to cheat half assed, thats kinda stupid ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol: Half-assed cheaters are the ones that get caught... is that what you're saying? :D
-Tom[/QUOTE]
:lol: Half-assed cheaters are the ones that get caught... is that what you're saying? :D
| trhoppe | 01-13-2005 02:39 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]:lol: Half-assed cheaters are the ones that get caught... is that what you're saying? :D[/QUOTE]
Bingo!
-Tom
4 for 4 in protests ;) :lol: :devil:
Bingo!
-Tom
4 for 4 in protests ;) :lol: :devil:
| AUTOwrXER | 01-13-2005 03:08 PM |
One other question; Is ECUtek available in a single-map version for the STi?
| trhoppe | 01-13-2005 03:10 PM |
They actually don't have a dual map version available for the STi yet.
-Tom
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 01-13-2005 03:16 PM |
That's comforting...
| trhoppe | 01-13-2005 03:29 PM |
:lol: :lol:
| DrBiggly | 01-13-2005 03:44 PM |
Speaking of cheating...
Tom,
Did you ever figure out who it was that I found out about in STX at Nats? :lol:
Tom,
Did you ever figure out who it was that I found out about in STX at Nats? :lol:
| trhoppe | 01-13-2005 04:04 PM |
Nope. No idea who it was...
-Tom
-Tom
| omahasubaru | 01-14-2005 10:19 AM |
There was a guy running I/C hoses at nats, no one protested and I didn't feel it was even worth letting him know.
| trhoppe | 01-14-2005 11:05 AM |
This was a little "bigger" then IC hoses ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-14-2005 11:08 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]This was a little "bigger" then IC hoses ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
No need to mention any names, but I'm curious how they were cheating.
I need to cover all of my bases..... ;) :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
No need to mention any names, but I'm curious how they were cheating.
I need to cover all of my bases..... ;) :lol:
| trhoppe | 01-14-2005 11:12 AM |
[img]http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/snail.jpg[/img]
-Tom
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 01-14-2005 11:18 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe][img]http://sprott.physics.wisc.edu/pickover/snail.jpg[/img]
-Tom[/QUOTE]
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:lol: :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
BAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:lol: :lol:
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-14-2005 02:08 PM |
So what are you tryin to say????????? Im slow or sumpin???????
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