| Rich10 | 08-12-2005 09:11 AM |
Tokico vs KYB and Koni?
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The consensus on this board is that the Koni inserts are better than KYB AGX's. Has anyone tried Tokico's (D spec?) who can compare them to KYB's or Koni's?
| solo-x | 08-12-2005 11:52 AM |
i haven't seen any literature on the tokico's, but based on what i've seen on all of their other offerings i'd still say the koni's are WAY better. post up some literature or a link to some information about them and we should be able to better critique that particular damper.
nate
nate
| leecea | 08-12-2005 12:04 PM |
There doesn't seem to be much available. This was the best I coudl find...
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/d-spec.html[/url]
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/d-spec.html[/url]
| MachinesWRX | 08-12-2005 12:38 PM |
KONI> KYB> Stock> Tokico
| Porter | 08-12-2005 01:02 PM |
That's not really a fair characterization.
Tokico makes some good products, and some not so good. Just like KYB, Showa, and all the other manufacturers who make a variety of products for different markets.
If you haven't used the Tokico D-Spec personally, then you're not qualified to comment on them. Period. Previous experience with Blues or Illuminas does not apply. They are radically different products.
Remember, the folks at Koni said the Whiteline Group4s were "garbage" after looking at the shock dyno charts, but in the real world they perform amazingly well.
Stop buying into the hype and do real-world testing. Otherwise, hush.
Tokico makes some good products, and some not so good. Just like KYB, Showa, and all the other manufacturers who make a variety of products for different markets.
If you haven't used the Tokico D-Spec personally, then you're not qualified to comment on them. Period. Previous experience with Blues or Illuminas does not apply. They are radically different products.
Remember, the folks at Koni said the Whiteline Group4s were "garbage" after looking at the shock dyno charts, but in the real world they perform amazingly well.
Stop buying into the hype and do real-world testing. Otherwise, hush.
| solo-x | 08-12-2005 01:41 PM |
looks like they use a needle/seat style adjustment method. vastly inferior to the bleed orifice method koni, moton, and a few others use. very similar to what AD, kyb, illumina, JIC, Tein, etc. use. it is a budget oriented system that has many drawbacks.
rebound and compression are adjusted simultaneously. you don't want this for a true performance shock. the forces these shocks generate don't look all too impressive. the low adjustment ranges are useless do to the progressive nature of the curve. low speed rebound force doesn't seem very aggressive and there is a lot of bump force. ignore anything to the left of the .3 line on the graph (nice that they seem to be using m/s for velocity and lbs for force) as you won't be seeing piston velocities in that range.
if porter's comments were directed towards me at all, i don't have to try them to tell you that you'll have better success with koni's then these tokico's. a dyno graph tells a lot about the damper and looking at what's published for these things i'd have to say they aren't worth spending money on if you're serious about being competitive. and for whom are the whitelines performing "amazingly well"? i remember that dyno graph too, and it wasn't that great.
nate
rebound and compression are adjusted simultaneously. you don't want this for a true performance shock. the forces these shocks generate don't look all too impressive. the low adjustment ranges are useless do to the progressive nature of the curve. low speed rebound force doesn't seem very aggressive and there is a lot of bump force. ignore anything to the left of the .3 line on the graph (nice that they seem to be using m/s for velocity and lbs for force) as you won't be seeing piston velocities in that range.
if porter's comments were directed towards me at all, i don't have to try them to tell you that you'll have better success with koni's then these tokico's. a dyno graph tells a lot about the damper and looking at what's published for these things i'd have to say they aren't worth spending money on if you're serious about being competitive. and for whom are the whitelines performing "amazingly well"? i remember that dyno graph too, and it wasn't that great.
nate
| KC | 08-12-2005 01:45 PM |
Nate.. I think he was talking about MachinesWRX... not enough of a description on why they're better from him.
| Porter | 08-12-2005 02:05 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]looks like they use a needle/seat style adjustment method. vastly inferior to the bleed orifice method koni, moton, and a few others use. very similar to what AD, kyb, illumina, JIC, Tein, etc. use. it is a budget oriented system that has many drawbacks.
rebound and compression are adjusted simultaneously. you don't want this for a true performance shock. the forces these shocks generate don't look all too impressive. the low adjustment ranges are useless do to the progressive nature of the curve. low speed rebound force doesn't seem very aggressive and there is a lot of bump force. ignore anything to the left of the .3 line on the graph (nice that they seem to be using m/s for velocity and lbs for force) as you won't be seeing piston velocities in that range.
if porter's comments were directed towards me at all, i don't have to try them to tell you that you'll have better success with koni's then these tokico's. a dyno graph tells a lot about the damper and looking at what's published for these things i'd have to say they aren't worth spending money on if you're serious about being competitive. and for whom are the whitelines performing "amazingly well"? i remember that dyno graph too, and it wasn't that great.
nate[/QUOTE]
My comment wasn't directed towards you.
But on your points... the technical "merits" of the shock you are using are not directly comparable to success in using that system in competition. There are a whole lot of people with various Teins (trhoppe with the Tein HAs comes to mind), JICs, Advance Design, etc. who have done very well in autocross competition. While the bleed orifice is technically superior from an engineering standpoint, that has not kept many people from winning events and championships using other equipment.
Also, the poster made no mention of what purpose he was going to be using these dampers for. For a street vehicle, there are MANY shocks that could be considered superior to Koni, especially in terms of durability. My Koni inserts lasted less than a year of mountain run duty in my SVX before giving up the ghost.
Measuring outright handling in terms of the very narrow specification of *rebound damping* is incomplete at best. The Whiteline Group4s are a good example. You suggest that they are inferior based on the shock dyno graph that you have seen, presumably because they do not offer as much rebound damping as you consider "appropriate" for competition use. Yet the reports coming back from owners of the system who are driving the vehicles in a variety of conditions are glowing in terms of both performance and comfort, even in comparison to other high-end systems used, i.e. DMS, Koni, etc.
The only way to measure a suspension setup in terms of how it will perform on a Subaru in the real world, is to put the entire system on the car and drive it. The rest is mental masturbation. I remember when people cried and stamped their feet and told me that putting any swaybar bigger than stock on the front of a Subaru would ruin the handling balance and cause understeer.
Rebound damping isn't everything, especially outside the very narrow requirements of a smooth track.
Just some food for thought. Give the D-specs a chance on a real car on a real road before you dismiss them as "garbage".
rebound and compression are adjusted simultaneously. you don't want this for a true performance shock. the forces these shocks generate don't look all too impressive. the low adjustment ranges are useless do to the progressive nature of the curve. low speed rebound force doesn't seem very aggressive and there is a lot of bump force. ignore anything to the left of the .3 line on the graph (nice that they seem to be using m/s for velocity and lbs for force) as you won't be seeing piston velocities in that range.
if porter's comments were directed towards me at all, i don't have to try them to tell you that you'll have better success with koni's then these tokico's. a dyno graph tells a lot about the damper and looking at what's published for these things i'd have to say they aren't worth spending money on if you're serious about being competitive. and for whom are the whitelines performing "amazingly well"? i remember that dyno graph too, and it wasn't that great.
nate[/QUOTE]
My comment wasn't directed towards you.
But on your points... the technical "merits" of the shock you are using are not directly comparable to success in using that system in competition. There are a whole lot of people with various Teins (trhoppe with the Tein HAs comes to mind), JICs, Advance Design, etc. who have done very well in autocross competition. While the bleed orifice is technically superior from an engineering standpoint, that has not kept many people from winning events and championships using other equipment.
Also, the poster made no mention of what purpose he was going to be using these dampers for. For a street vehicle, there are MANY shocks that could be considered superior to Koni, especially in terms of durability. My Koni inserts lasted less than a year of mountain run duty in my SVX before giving up the ghost.
Measuring outright handling in terms of the very narrow specification of *rebound damping* is incomplete at best. The Whiteline Group4s are a good example. You suggest that they are inferior based on the shock dyno graph that you have seen, presumably because they do not offer as much rebound damping as you consider "appropriate" for competition use. Yet the reports coming back from owners of the system who are driving the vehicles in a variety of conditions are glowing in terms of both performance and comfort, even in comparison to other high-end systems used, i.e. DMS, Koni, etc.
The only way to measure a suspension setup in terms of how it will perform on a Subaru in the real world, is to put the entire system on the car and drive it. The rest is mental masturbation. I remember when people cried and stamped their feet and told me that putting any swaybar bigger than stock on the front of a Subaru would ruin the handling balance and cause understeer.
Rebound damping isn't everything, especially outside the very narrow requirements of a smooth track.
Just some food for thought. Give the D-specs a chance on a real car on a real road before you dismiss them as "garbage".
| solo-x | 08-12-2005 03:04 PM |
if they're fast on equipment that isn't the best, imagine how fast they would be on the BEST equipment? yeah, you can win on bargain basement stuff. it's easier to do it on the quality stuff though.
real world testing is good. however, if you dyno two motors on an engine dyno and one makes more power across a broader power band then the other, do you REALLY think the one that makes less power in a narrower range is going to be faster?? a shock dyno will tell you 90% or more of what you need to know. if you've got two curves that are similar but with minor differences here and there then you need to do some real world testing. if you've got a dyno curve that is completely insufficient for your needs then why waste valuable testing time to see if it somehow performs better then it should? that's like installing that crappy motor and expecting it to be faster somehow.
rebound damping is what controls the sprung mass. it affects your handling. if the curve is crap, the handling will be crap. yeah, spring rates, swaybars, alignments all play a part. if your dampers aren't up to task though you'll be spending all your time bandaiding that problem instead of all the other problems a tin top is blessed with.
your reliability issue with the koni's is out of the norm. i've logged 20k+ miles on my race valved koni's with crazy spring rates, ultra low ride height, and crappy NE roads. no problems. and if i ever did have a problem, i'd bet you $100 i could get them fixed in less time and for less money then any of the JDM setups or the non-rebuildable tokico's.
DMS's are not high end. overpriced &%^@ maybe, but not high end. i'm a little biased after the crap they pulled on a very prominant member and fast driver. if you GAVE me the highest model DMS damper i'd use them to hold up my workshop bench then buy some dampers from someone else.
as to the op not mentioning the purpose, i'd assume given the nature of the board he posted on that it wasn't for general street use. i suppose the op could be interested in these as a rally shock, but i assume he doesn't. if the purpose is for rally, ignore all my preceding comments as i don't know what kind of damping curve is important for rally. also, in a motorsports forum, i don't think too many of us are overly concerned with a comfortable ride quality. i care about trophies. i use what will get me trophies. i don't waste my time developing a setup to work with a product that is sub-par.
nate - is feeling highly opinionated today
ps. disregard anything i say if you are using these shocks for a daily driven street car or if you just race for fun. tokico makes a good quality shock for that purpose.
real world testing is good. however, if you dyno two motors on an engine dyno and one makes more power across a broader power band then the other, do you REALLY think the one that makes less power in a narrower range is going to be faster?? a shock dyno will tell you 90% or more of what you need to know. if you've got two curves that are similar but with minor differences here and there then you need to do some real world testing. if you've got a dyno curve that is completely insufficient for your needs then why waste valuable testing time to see if it somehow performs better then it should? that's like installing that crappy motor and expecting it to be faster somehow.
rebound damping is what controls the sprung mass. it affects your handling. if the curve is crap, the handling will be crap. yeah, spring rates, swaybars, alignments all play a part. if your dampers aren't up to task though you'll be spending all your time bandaiding that problem instead of all the other problems a tin top is blessed with.
your reliability issue with the koni's is out of the norm. i've logged 20k+ miles on my race valved koni's with crazy spring rates, ultra low ride height, and crappy NE roads. no problems. and if i ever did have a problem, i'd bet you $100 i could get them fixed in less time and for less money then any of the JDM setups or the non-rebuildable tokico's.
DMS's are not high end. overpriced &%^@ maybe, but not high end. i'm a little biased after the crap they pulled on a very prominant member and fast driver. if you GAVE me the highest model DMS damper i'd use them to hold up my workshop bench then buy some dampers from someone else.
as to the op not mentioning the purpose, i'd assume given the nature of the board he posted on that it wasn't for general street use. i suppose the op could be interested in these as a rally shock, but i assume he doesn't. if the purpose is for rally, ignore all my preceding comments as i don't know what kind of damping curve is important for rally. also, in a motorsports forum, i don't think too many of us are overly concerned with a comfortable ride quality. i care about trophies. i use what will get me trophies. i don't waste my time developing a setup to work with a product that is sub-par.
nate - is feeling highly opinionated today
ps. disregard anything i say if you are using these shocks for a daily driven street car or if you just race for fun. tokico makes a good quality shock for that purpose.
| Porter | 08-12-2005 03:14 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]ps. disregard anything i say if you are using these shocks for a daily driven street car or if you just race for fun. tokico makes a good quality shock for that purpose.[/QUOTE]
Based on this statement, we are in 100% agreement on all of the above. :D
Based on this statement, we are in 100% agreement on all of the above. :D
| KC | 08-12-2005 03:15 PM |
Tokico actually makes the stock shocks on my rx8. :)
| ratt_finkel | 08-12-2005 03:47 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]Tokico actually makes the stock shocks on my rx8. :)[/QUOTE]
And what do most people replace those with ;)
And what do most people replace those with ;)
| KC | 08-12-2005 03:48 PM |
Konis? :lol:
--kC
(Is this a trick question?)
--kC
(Is this a trick question?)
| Templar | 08-12-2005 03:57 PM |
[QUOTE=MachinesWRX]KONI> KYB> Stock> Tokico[/QUOTE]
Would you like to see a picture of stock Subaru OE struts with a Tokico stamp on them? There are over a dozen different ones.
Would you like to see a picture of stock Subaru OE struts with a Tokico stamp on them? There are over a dozen different ones.
| shemoves | 08-12-2005 03:58 PM |
So, as far as performance and quality is concerned, who makes the best coilover (competitive auto-x)?
| leecea | 08-12-2005 05:21 PM |
I gotta believe that 'best' is a relative term. Given that one of my region's DS competitors spent a reported $3K on his shocks, I'm sure there are some mega-$$$ coilovers out there that are 'the best', but probably no one is actually running them for autox.
| shemoves | 08-12-2005 05:45 PM |
yah, ride quality is very relative. Lets just go with build quality. Let's say I (although I didn't) won 3k that had to be spent on coilovers. The money could only be spent on the coilovers, and they are not allowed to be removed from the car, and if for any reason they did come off the car they would magically desintegrate like a honda in the mirrors.
They would see both street and auto-x (and maybe even a smooth, dry rally-x assuming I have a lot of tape and suran wrap). I would sacrifice quite a bit of 'comfort' for better handling. Remember, build quality/durability is of peak importance.
What coiloever would you suggest to me?
They would see both street and auto-x (and maybe even a smooth, dry rally-x assuming I have a lot of tape and suran wrap). I would sacrifice quite a bit of 'comfort' for better handling. Remember, build quality/durability is of peak importance.
What coiloever would you suggest to me?
| Patrick Olsen | 08-13-2005 03:18 AM |
[QUOTE=shemoves]So, as far as performance and quality is concerned, who makes the best coilover (competitive auto-x)?[/QUOTE]
Oh, and while we're on the subject of topics that have little to do with the original poster's question, why is it that Koni inserts are painted yellow? I mean, I'm just going to insert them into a stock strut body, so I won't see the paint anyway!
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
[i]No, I don't have anything to offer to this thread...[/i]
Oh, and while we're on the subject of topics that have little to do with the original poster's question, why is it that Koni inserts are painted yellow? I mean, I'm just going to insert them into a stock strut body, so I won't see the paint anyway!
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
[i]No, I don't have anything to offer to this thread...[/i]
| shemoves | 08-13-2005 03:53 AM |
Yah, sorry for the hijack. If someone wants to pm me some personal preferences on coilover that'd be cool. Original post is in regards to comparing Tokico (D-Spec), KYBs, and Konis inserts.
Pat: corrosion resistance?
Pat: corrosion resistance?
| neuspeed | 08-13-2005 10:44 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]Tokico actually makes the stock shocks on my rx8. :)[/QUOTE]
Same on the Mach1, My kawasaki Ninja (they also make brakes for it as well)...
Same on the Mach1, My kawasaki Ninja (they also make brakes for it as well)...
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-13-2005 11:54 PM |
Is the Koni (single adj/"plain jane") dyno floating around somewhere? I'd like to compare it to the oem STi strut?
Danka
Edit- found them :)
Danka
Edit- found them :)
| B Esquire | 08-14-2005 02:53 AM |
[QUOTE=shemoves]So, as far as performance and quality is concerned, who makes the best coilover (competitive auto-x)?[/QUOTE]
DMS 50mm... Duh! :cool:
DMS 50mm... Duh! :cool:
| shemoves | 08-14-2005 06:28 PM |
is a 50mm too much weight for auto-x...I understand it for rally, but that seems pretty big.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-14-2005 07:29 PM |
I'd guess the 50's still weigh less than the oe struts/springs
| Zuffy | 08-14-2005 09:28 PM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Is the Koni (single adj/"plain jane") dyno floating around somewhere? I'd like to compare it to the oem STi strut?
Danka
Edit- found them :)[/QUOTE]
Where did you find them? :)
Danka
Edit- found them :)[/QUOTE]
Where did you find them? :)
| Rich10 | 08-14-2005 09:51 PM |
[QUOTE=Porter]Also, the poster made no mention of what purpose he was going to be using these dampers for. For a street vehicle, there are MANY shocks that could be considered superior to Koni, especially in terms of durability. My Koni inserts lasted less than a year of mountain run duty in my SVX before giving up the ghost. [/QUOTE]My purpose for these shocks is primarily for street use with several autox per year. I am not nationally competitive and have no plans to dedicate my car to becoming nationally competitive.
From what I have read, the KYB AGX's seem to be the better choice (for the money) for a car that will see primarily street use.
From what I have read, the KYB AGX's seem to be the better choice (for the money) for a car that will see primarily street use.
| trhoppe | 08-14-2005 09:57 PM |
For your viewing pleasure.
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/KoniStiWRX.jpg[/img]
I wonder what the Force measurement is in this graph
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/D-spec_graph.htm[/url]
I hope its not Newtons.
-Tom
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/KoniStiWRX.jpg[/img]
I wonder what the Force measurement is in this graph
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/D-spec_graph.htm[/url]
I hope its not Newtons.
-Tom
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-14-2005 10:04 PM |
Thanks for posting the graph :)
Good question on the Tokico's- looks m/sec for the velocity.
Good question on the Tokico's- looks m/sec for the velocity.
| trhoppe | 08-14-2005 10:07 PM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Thanks for posting the graph :)
Good question on the Tokico's- looks m/sec for the velocity.[/QUOTE]
Yup, and like Nate said, anything north of 0.3 is pretty much useless. Thats "landing from a jump" shock velocity.
-Tom
Good question on the Tokico's- looks m/sec for the velocity.[/QUOTE]
Yup, and like Nate said, anything north of 0.3 is pretty much useless. Thats "landing from a jump" shock velocity.
-Tom
| solo-x | 08-14-2005 11:47 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I wonder what the Force measurement is in this graph
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/D-spec_graph.htm[/url]
I hope its not Newtons.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
looks like lbs of force. i hate graphs with mixed english and metric units of measure.
[url]http://www.tokicogasshocks.com/car/D-spec_graph.htm[/url]
I hope its not Newtons.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
looks like lbs of force. i hate graphs with mixed english and metric units of measure.
| trhoppe | 08-15-2005 01:15 AM |
Tokico is added in blue and black.
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/KoniStiWRXTokico.jpg[/img]
Although they offer good low speed rebound at the stiffest setting, there is NO bump damping in these things. Less the the stock WRX struts. Also, don't expect any performance out of these unless they are stuck at full stiff. Not so good. I'm not sure how much these are, but anything north of $300ish a set and its too much IMHO. The Konis for $560 outshine these in every single aspect.
-Tom
[img]http://www.tomhoppe.com/misc%20pics/KoniStiWRXTokico.jpg[/img]
Although they offer good low speed rebound at the stiffest setting, there is NO bump damping in these things. Less the the stock WRX struts. Also, don't expect any performance out of these unless they are stuck at full stiff. Not so good. I'm not sure how much these are, but anything north of $300ish a set and its too much IMHO. The Konis for $560 outshine these in every single aspect.
-Tom
| B Esquire | 08-15-2005 04:21 AM |
[QUOTE=shemoves]is a 50mm too much weight for auto-x...I understand it for rally, but that seems pretty big.[/QUOTE]
Nice thing about the 50's is that they are bump and rebound adjustable. If you are using them for competition, auto x, road racing etc, this comes in VERY handy. If not, the DMS 40's are a good alternative for street only use. But back to the 50's, you would be amazed at what you can dial out (or in) with double adustable shocks.
Nice thing about the 50's is that they are bump and rebound adjustable. If you are using them for competition, auto x, road racing etc, this comes in VERY handy. If not, the DMS 40's are a good alternative for street only use. But back to the 50's, you would be amazed at what you can dial out (or in) with double adustable shocks.
| KC | 08-15-2005 08:00 AM |
[QUOTE=B Esquire]Nice thing about the 50's is that they are bump and rebound adjustable. If you are using them for competition, auto x, road racing etc, this comes in VERY handy. If not, the DMS 40's are a good alternative for street only use. But back to the 50's, you would be amazed at what you can dial out (or in) with double adustable shocks.[/QUOTE]
1) How often do the DMSs need to be rebuilt?
2) Can you run on them in the winter (snow)?
3) Where can they be rebuilt if you don't have the means to do them yourself?
4) How much does it cost to re-build them if you did it yourself?
5) How much does it cost if DMS did the rebuilding?
DMS 40's are NOT a good alternative to anything. They cost so much for so very little performance benefit it's a joke. When talking 40's, street performance is the fact they'll rust up over the 1st winter. Not to mention, using them inan auto-x and you might lose your warranty on them.
DMS Threads:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470367&highlight=dms[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761394&highlight=dms[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763008&page=7&pp=25[/url]
And the mother of all threads:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278735&highlight=dms[/url]
DMS 40s aren't worth the cost. (even if they were free)
And 50s are a rally suspension that some have made into an auto-x suspension... there's plenty of better options out there than the 50s.
At that, DMS has some of the pooerst customer service I've ever seen (besides V*V*D).
Make an informed decision when buying shocks/struts... and think about the whole lifecycle cost, and customer service you get when looking at just the initial price.
--kC
1) How often do the DMSs need to be rebuilt?
2) Can you run on them in the winter (snow)?
3) Where can they be rebuilt if you don't have the means to do them yourself?
4) How much does it cost to re-build them if you did it yourself?
5) How much does it cost if DMS did the rebuilding?
DMS 40's are NOT a good alternative to anything. They cost so much for so very little performance benefit it's a joke. When talking 40's, street performance is the fact they'll rust up over the 1st winter. Not to mention, using them inan auto-x and you might lose your warranty on them.
DMS Threads:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=470367&highlight=dms[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761394&highlight=dms[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=763008&page=7&pp=25[/url]
And the mother of all threads:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278735&highlight=dms[/url]
DMS 40s aren't worth the cost. (even if they were free)
And 50s are a rally suspension that some have made into an auto-x suspension... there's plenty of better options out there than the 50s.
At that, DMS has some of the pooerst customer service I've ever seen (besides V*V*D).
Make an informed decision when buying shocks/struts... and think about the whole lifecycle cost, and customer service you get when looking at just the initial price.
--kC
| B Esquire | 08-15-2005 02:57 PM |
[QUOTE=KC]1) How often do the DMSs need to be rebuilt?
2) Can you run on them in the winter (snow)?
3) Where can they be rebuilt if you don't have the means to do them yourself?
4) How much does it cost to re-build them if you did it yourself?
5) How much does it cost if DMS did the rebuilding?[/QUOTE]
1) Depending on use, I have had mine on my WRX racecar for over a season and they have not been rebuilt, just cleaned. That is the hardest use a shock will get.
2) Of course.
3) You can get them rebuilt at DMS North America or several US distributers listed on there site, [url]www.dmsnorthamerica.com[/url]
4)Not Sure, depends of parts needed ie. bodies, pistons, seals.
5)Ditto.
[QUOTE=KC]
DMS 40s aren't worth the cost. (even if they were free)
And 50s are a rally suspension that some have made into an auto-x suspension... there's plenty of better options out there than the 50s.
[/QUOTE]
DMS started in rally yes but the 50mm Rally Tarmac shocks work wonders on my car. Its the only reason we can weigh 500-600 lbs more than our competition and still out handle them.
[QUOTE=KC]
Make an informed decision when buying shocks/struts... and think about the whole lifecycle cost, and customer service you get when looking at just the initial price.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I agree. Make an informed decision based off of test results and experience.
2) Can you run on them in the winter (snow)?
3) Where can they be rebuilt if you don't have the means to do them yourself?
4) How much does it cost to re-build them if you did it yourself?
5) How much does it cost if DMS did the rebuilding?[/QUOTE]
1) Depending on use, I have had mine on my WRX racecar for over a season and they have not been rebuilt, just cleaned. That is the hardest use a shock will get.
2) Of course.
3) You can get them rebuilt at DMS North America or several US distributers listed on there site, [url]www.dmsnorthamerica.com[/url]
4)Not Sure, depends of parts needed ie. bodies, pistons, seals.
5)Ditto.
[QUOTE=KC]
DMS 40s aren't worth the cost. (even if they were free)
And 50s are a rally suspension that some have made into an auto-x suspension... there's plenty of better options out there than the 50s.
[/QUOTE]
DMS started in rally yes but the 50mm Rally Tarmac shocks work wonders on my car. Its the only reason we can weigh 500-600 lbs more than our competition and still out handle them.
[QUOTE=KC]
Make an informed decision when buying shocks/struts... and think about the whole lifecycle cost, and customer service you get when looking at just the initial price.
--kC[/QUOTE]
I agree. Make an informed decision based off of test results and experience.
| Calamity Jesus | 08-15-2005 04:24 PM |
[QUOTE=B Esquire]2) Of course.[/QUOTE]
How much salt do they use on the roads near Santa Cruz? :lol:
How much salt do they use on the roads near Santa Cruz? :lol:
| solo-x | 08-15-2005 04:58 PM |
[QUOTE=B Esquire]I agree. Make an informed decision based off of test results and experience.[/QUOTE]
well, on experience alone, i'd rather use monroe sensa-trac's over anything that comes from DMS. just curious, aside from the other reasons to stay away from DMS, what does the dyno graph of their tarmac damper look like? can anyone post it up? my money is on a rather mediocre graph from a competition standpoint. needle and seat bleed, no low speed control, small adjustment range, etc. no facts behind that yet, but i'm betting i'm not far off base here.
nate
well, on experience alone, i'd rather use monroe sensa-trac's over anything that comes from DMS. just curious, aside from the other reasons to stay away from DMS, what does the dyno graph of their tarmac damper look like? can anyone post it up? my money is on a rather mediocre graph from a competition standpoint. needle and seat bleed, no low speed control, small adjustment range, etc. no facts behind that yet, but i'm betting i'm not far off base here.
nate
| Porter | 08-15-2005 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]well, on experience alone, i'd rather use monroe sensa-trac's over anything that comes from DMS. just curious, aside from the other reasons to stay away from DMS, what does the dyno graph of their tarmac damper look like? can anyone post it up? my money is on a rather mediocre graph from a competition standpoint. needle and seat bleed, no low speed control, small adjustment range, etc. no facts behind that yet, but i'm betting i'm not far off base here.
nate[/QUOTE]
You're doing a lot to prove how pointless your criteria are.
[i]This just in, folks... solo-x says DMS 50mm are garbage... backs up claim by guessing that the adjustment range is too small and the low speed damping just doesn't work well enough on paper... Response forthcoming from professional rallyists worldwide... film at 11.[/i]
nate[/QUOTE]
You're doing a lot to prove how pointless your criteria are.
[i]This just in, folks... solo-x says DMS 50mm are garbage... backs up claim by guessing that the adjustment range is too small and the low speed damping just doesn't work well enough on paper... Response forthcoming from professional rallyists worldwide... film at 11.[/i]
| Draken | 08-15-2005 07:26 PM |
I hold judgement until I see some facts about the DMS50 Tarmac setup. I would NEVER buy a set of shocks/struts without seeing what the valving characteristics look like, unless I'm just looking to upgrade the family truckster for daily driving. So..I would be very interested in seeing what low-speed rebound valving on the DMS Tarmac setup look like. Just because DMS says they are great, and some rally peeps run them, doesn't mean they are the **** for autocross. Just like when Myles (no offense) posts pretty pictures of the new hot Motons. Without technical details, we are all just hoping that Moton got it right for our specific application. And the chances are very slim that a high-end unit like the DMS or Moton are built specific to an extremely focused group such as Subie autocrossers.
All that said, I bet Nate's right with regard to the DMS.
c'
All that said, I bet Nate's right with regard to the DMS.
c'
| B Esquire | 08-15-2005 09:05 PM |
[QUOTE=Beaverboy]How much salt do they use on the roads near Santa Cruz? :lol:[/QUOTE]
I don't know, I don't drive my Subaru in Santa Cruz. Although a Santa Cruz street race would be pretty sweet. How about running next to the board walk.
I don't know, I don't drive my Subaru in Santa Cruz. Although a Santa Cruz street race would be pretty sweet. How about running next to the board walk.
| Porter | 08-15-2005 10:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Draken]I hold judgement until I see some facts about the DMS50 Tarmac setup. I would NEVER buy a set of shocks/struts without seeing what the valving characteristics look like, unless I'm just looking to upgrade the family truckster for daily driving. So..I would be very interested in seeing what low-speed rebound valving on the DMS Tarmac setup look like. Just because DMS says they are great, and some rally peeps run them, doesn't mean they are the **** for autocross. Just like when Myles (no offense) posts pretty pictures of the new hot Motons. Without technical details, we are all just hoping that Moton got it right for our specific application. And the chances are very slim that a high-end unit like the DMS or Moton are built specific to an extremely focused group such as Subie autocrossers.
All that said, I bet Nate's right with regard to the DMS.
c'[/QUOTE]This forum cracks me up. Everybody analyzing damping curves and arguing about things like bleed orifices, when 99.9% of the cars being discussed will never see anything more serious than a regional autocross, which isn't even racing. People putting suspensions designed to maximize grip over minute changes in tarmac surface at 140mph on their autocross cars, and worrying about minutiae of low-speed rebound damping for 30mph transitions on the autocross course.
Newsflash, y'all... if it's possible to convince your insurance company that it's a "driver improvement" activity, then it's not racing. And other than about 10 or 15 totally insane people in the whole country who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of a motorsport in which there are no real prizes for winning, you probably don't have a need or a use for a $3000 set of coilovers.
If you're going to drive the car on the streets and backroads for the vast majority of the time, and take it to an autocross every now and then to have fun, then buy a suspension product that is consistent with those needs. Pure competition products will give you 10% better real-world performance for a 50% reduction in durability. Do they have a gee-whiz factor that's neat? Sure they do, but it's like buying a gold-plated food processor. It's pretty, but it doesn't really make the food taste any better.
Please disregard the above if you are a legitimate national-level autocross competitor with a proven record.
All that said, I bet Nate's right with regard to the DMS.
c'[/QUOTE]This forum cracks me up. Everybody analyzing damping curves and arguing about things like bleed orifices, when 99.9% of the cars being discussed will never see anything more serious than a regional autocross, which isn't even racing. People putting suspensions designed to maximize grip over minute changes in tarmac surface at 140mph on their autocross cars, and worrying about minutiae of low-speed rebound damping for 30mph transitions on the autocross course.
Newsflash, y'all... if it's possible to convince your insurance company that it's a "driver improvement" activity, then it's not racing. And other than about 10 or 15 totally insane people in the whole country who dedicate their lives to the pursuit of a motorsport in which there are no real prizes for winning, you probably don't have a need or a use for a $3000 set of coilovers.
If you're going to drive the car on the streets and backroads for the vast majority of the time, and take it to an autocross every now and then to have fun, then buy a suspension product that is consistent with those needs. Pure competition products will give you 10% better real-world performance for a 50% reduction in durability. Do they have a gee-whiz factor that's neat? Sure they do, but it's like buying a gold-plated food processor. It's pretty, but it doesn't really make the food taste any better.
Please disregard the above if you are a legitimate national-level autocross competitor with a proven record.
| Draken | 08-15-2005 10:52 PM |
Porter: You just happen to be arguing with a couple people (me and nate) who are national-level autocross types. So in the words of my friend Tommy boy...huff a dong :)
Oh yeah...and Hoppe is a *****!
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
ps: I only run $1,200 gee-whiz struts, but after a few small valving changes am quite happy with them. And my STi is daily driven, and occasionally tracked.
Oh yeah...and Hoppe is a *****!
Chris H.
[url]www.subrew.com[/url]
ps: I only run $1,200 gee-whiz struts, but after a few small valving changes am quite happy with them. And my STi is daily driven, and occasionally tracked.
| trhoppe | 08-15-2005 10:59 PM |
Your mom!
The thing that Porter is missing, is that all of us are arguing FOR a set of $550 Koni shocks that will OUTPERFORM just about anything else on the market. We are here to tell you that the Konis will give you that ride you want on the street, but also provide you with just about the best shock possible for the autoxing that you will do. Why would you buy a Tokico or spend a few less bucks for a KYB or why would you spend way the hell more $$ for a coilover setup, when the $550 Koni will kick its ass?
-Tom
who won Nationals on a POS old ass shock that wasn't even made for the damn car which was revalved. Its all in the damn valving.
The thing that Porter is missing, is that all of us are arguing FOR a set of $550 Koni shocks that will OUTPERFORM just about anything else on the market. We are here to tell you that the Konis will give you that ride you want on the street, but also provide you with just about the best shock possible for the autoxing that you will do. Why would you buy a Tokico or spend a few less bucks for a KYB or why would you spend way the hell more $$ for a coilover setup, when the $550 Koni will kick its ass?
-Tom
who won Nationals on a POS old ass shock that wasn't even made for the damn car which was revalved. Its all in the damn valving.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-15-2005 11:04 PM |
I'd have to disagree on the worthiness assessment of a thread like this- seeing actual dyno graphs (and the accompanying discussion) should give everyone a little more insight into what they are buying (or contemplating buying)- regardless of their "racing" resume.
| Draken | 08-15-2005 11:09 PM |
Hoppyson: $550 for off the shelf units, which will be dandy for 99%.
But closer to $1200+ for a competitive STX/ESP setup, imo. I thought about them before I got my Teins, but figured $550-600 for the Konis, plus a revalve for all four to handle the springs, plus some housings, plus some front camber plates, plus some springs. And since I got my Flex at cost, it was a wash. And i didn't have time to fiddle, and based on your revalve of the HAs, I was pretty pleased with the Flex valving.
BTW: you were absolutly glowing on stage when you got your award. Oh wait, or were you drunk?
Chris H.
But closer to $1200+ for a competitive STX/ESP setup, imo. I thought about them before I got my Teins, but figured $550-600 for the Konis, plus a revalve for all four to handle the springs, plus some housings, plus some front camber plates, plus some springs. And since I got my Flex at cost, it was a wash. And i didn't have time to fiddle, and based on your revalve of the HAs, I was pretty pleased with the Flex valving.
BTW: you were absolutly glowing on stage when you got your award. Oh wait, or were you drunk?
Chris H.
| Craigs | 08-15-2005 11:11 PM |
On topic: what is the benfit of AD vs Koni DA?
Off topic: How to you guys pick the correct sping rates?
Off topic: How to you guys pick the correct sping rates?
| trhoppe | 08-15-2005 11:39 PM |
I agree with your $550 for 99% statement. I think the thread was started in that regard. Tokico KYB or Koni. There is no question Koni. Its not even fair to mention the other two shock manufacturers in teh same sentence as Koni :)
I also agree with you on the STX/ESP setup. It would be cheaper to buy a set of coilovers and have the revalved as you get all the extra goodies then to spend $2500 on a true set of double Konis in housings. (Which is what I did, except I started with a $500 set of Tein HAs for a GC8 that were off a wrecked car) BUT for that $2500 you would get just about the best set of shocks $ could buy.
And I was so drunk on stage I don't even remember.
Now, Craig
AD is a monotube gas shock that is double adjustable. It has a bunch of bump damping but you can request good rebound as well. Our problem was quality control and the fact that we were R&Ding their setup for an STi. Now they apparently have that (quality control) under control and are putting out good valvings again. BTW, mine are for sale ;) PM for a super deal. We have to go to stock housings for T2.
As far as the springrates. Well you gotta figure out what you are going to do with the car and then go with an rate that will suit your needs.
-Tom
I also agree with you on the STX/ESP setup. It would be cheaper to buy a set of coilovers and have the revalved as you get all the extra goodies then to spend $2500 on a true set of double Konis in housings. (Which is what I did, except I started with a $500 set of Tein HAs for a GC8 that were off a wrecked car) BUT for that $2500 you would get just about the best set of shocks $ could buy.
And I was so drunk on stage I don't even remember.
Now, Craig
AD is a monotube gas shock that is double adjustable. It has a bunch of bump damping but you can request good rebound as well. Our problem was quality control and the fact that we were R&Ding their setup for an STi. Now they apparently have that (quality control) under control and are putting out good valvings again. BTW, mine are for sale ;) PM for a super deal. We have to go to stock housings for T2.
As far as the springrates. Well you gotta figure out what you are going to do with the car and then go with an rate that will suit your needs.
-Tom
| Porter | 08-15-2005 11:44 PM |
Ha! I got you guys going. You are right about the Konis... I do have them on my own car, after all.... :lol: :lol: They make a great product, as long as you're going to be spending all of your time on smooth pavement. I don't, which is why mine blew up. They don't like ruts, washboard, gravel, rocks, potholes, etc... which is where products like the DMS come in. Koni's bread and butter is smooth tarmac. The DMS's bread and butter is rough surfaces.
My only issue with the Konis is that they're not a bolt-on unit. Carving housings open and ripping out valving to fit inserts is a pretty inelegant way of installing a suspension. If they were a direct-replacement strut, I'd consider them a perfect autocross solution. Since they're not, I think they're very much a compromise. You're essentially destroying $500 worth of stock struts to install $600 worth of Konis. I guess it all depends on how much value you personally place on the stock hardware. You paid for it as part of the car... I dunno, maybe I'm just too frugal.
BTW, the folks at Tokico ARE willing to valve the D-specs any way you'd like... I really would like to see somebody run these, especially revalved, and give a report before everybody discounts them as inferior. Cost effective compared to the Koni? I think so, considering the stock suspension you have to gut and the cost of the labor to install the Konis if you aren't going to do it yourself.
My only issue with the Konis is that they're not a bolt-on unit. Carving housings open and ripping out valving to fit inserts is a pretty inelegant way of installing a suspension. If they were a direct-replacement strut, I'd consider them a perfect autocross solution. Since they're not, I think they're very much a compromise. You're essentially destroying $500 worth of stock struts to install $600 worth of Konis. I guess it all depends on how much value you personally place on the stock hardware. You paid for it as part of the car... I dunno, maybe I'm just too frugal.
BTW, the folks at Tokico ARE willing to valve the D-specs any way you'd like... I really would like to see somebody run these, especially revalved, and give a report before everybody discounts them as inferior. Cost effective compared to the Koni? I think so, considering the stock suspension you have to gut and the cost of the labor to install the Konis if you aren't going to do it yourself.
| trhoppe | 08-15-2005 11:46 PM |
Or ripping up a set of used ass blown $20 shipped set of shocks ;) You know, your choice.
-Tom
-Tom
| Porter | 08-15-2005 11:48 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Or ripping up a set of used ass blown $20 shipped set of shocks ;) You know, your choice.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Come on Tom, you know that $20 isn't a real value. Even used, a stock STi suspension is worth several hundred dollars, like $500 probably, and a WRX suspension is worth at least $200 in the real world.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Come on Tom, you know that $20 isn't a real value. Even used, a stock STi suspension is worth several hundred dollars, like $500 probably, and a WRX suspension is worth at least $200 in the real world.
| trhoppe | 08-16-2005 12:01 AM |
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787487&highlight=shocks[/url]
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom
| Porter | 08-16-2005 12:26 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom[/QUOTE]Not bad!
You're such a good little shopper. I'm taking you with me to the mall. :lol:
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom[/QUOTE]Not bad!
You're such a good little shopper. I'm taking you with me to the mall. :lol:
| Eleazar | 08-16-2005 01:43 AM |
[QUOTE=Porter]They make a great product, as long as you're going to be spending all of your time on smooth pavement. I don't, which is why mine blew up. They don't like ruts, washboard, gravel, rocks, potholes, etc... which is where products like the DMS come in. Koni's bread and butter is smooth tarmac. The DMS's bread and butter is rough surfaces.[/QUOTE]
How did you know they were blown? I did about 30 miles of gravel roads last weekend (pretty smooth.. just gravel) and they now seem a bit stiffer, even on full soft. Could be some other suspension component, just wondering what the failure signs are. I'd love driving off road as long as the roads are nice .. not the big noisy gravel and fairly smooth, but if they will wear out my konis in 20k miles then I'd better stay off.
How did you know they were blown? I did about 30 miles of gravel roads last weekend (pretty smooth.. just gravel) and they now seem a bit stiffer, even on full soft. Could be some other suspension component, just wondering what the failure signs are. I'd love driving off road as long as the roads are nice .. not the big noisy gravel and fairly smooth, but if they will wear out my konis in 20k miles then I'd better stay off.
| ratt_finkel | 08-16-2005 09:15 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe] Why would you buy a Tokico or spend a few less bucks for a KYB or why would you spend way the hell more $$ for a coilover setup, when the $550 Koni will kick its ass?
[/QUOTE]
When the valving of the KYB's is identical to the DA Konis ;)
[/QUOTE]
When the valving of the KYB's is identical to the DA Konis ;)
| KC | 08-16-2005 09:46 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe][url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=787487&highlight=shocks[/url]
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Porter,
And that's really the going rate or lower for stock struts in the used market.
I had sold mine for $100 and bought some later for $100. Anything more than that and they won't sell.
I have 4 DMS 40s rotting away in the basement that I paid $1600 for and won't put another penny towards. If someone wants to pay $400 for them take them.. then they have to deal with DMS to get them 'fixed'. They have the stiction problem, and I was told because I auto-xed them, they weren't covered under warranty.
Lachute has offered to rebuild them. Fine by me. But the issue was a warranty one back in '02, and at that trime I was 100% certain I shouldn't have to pay to have them 'fixed under warranty' once they changed their tune and researched what auto-x actually was (and the website even said club sport events).
In the words of Tom... DMS can "huff a dong".
I'm not paying the $100 to have them shipped to be fixed because I would then be out $100 more for a 'warranty' issue and would be questionable if I could even sell them.
I'd rather sell them and let someone else deal with DMS since DMS/Lachute/DMS NA left such a BAD taste over the issue.
$100 and not even blown :p
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Porter,
And that's really the going rate or lower for stock struts in the used market.
I had sold mine for $100 and bought some later for $100. Anything more than that and they won't sell.
I have 4 DMS 40s rotting away in the basement that I paid $1600 for and won't put another penny towards. If someone wants to pay $400 for them take them.. then they have to deal with DMS to get them 'fixed'. They have the stiction problem, and I was told because I auto-xed them, they weren't covered under warranty.
Lachute has offered to rebuild them. Fine by me. But the issue was a warranty one back in '02, and at that trime I was 100% certain I shouldn't have to pay to have them 'fixed under warranty' once they changed their tune and researched what auto-x actually was (and the website even said club sport events).
In the words of Tom... DMS can "huff a dong".
I'm not paying the $100 to have them shipped to be fixed because I would then be out $100 more for a 'warranty' issue and would be questionable if I could even sell them.
I'd rather sell them and let someone else deal with DMS since DMS/Lachute/DMS NA left such a BAD taste over the issue.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-16-2005 10:05 AM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]When the valving of the KYB's is identical to the DA Konis ;)[/QUOTE]
Are you saying the valving of the AGX's (?) are the same as DA Koni's? I'm from Missouri so you'll have to show me :)
Also I got looking at the very first post and the link to Tokico- that apeears to be possibly just a generic graph- I didn't see anywhere that it was for the WRX. I wonder if it's for a different car? We probably want to make sure we're comparing apples/apples.
Are you saying the valving of the AGX's (?) are the same as DA Koni's? I'm from Missouri so you'll have to show me :)
Also I got looking at the very first post and the link to Tokico- that apeears to be possibly just a generic graph- I didn't see anywhere that it was for the WRX. I wonder if it's for a different car? We probably want to make sure we're comparing apples/apples.
| ratt_finkel | 08-16-2005 10:56 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Are you saying the valving of the AGX's (?) are the same as DA Koni's? I'm from Missouri so you'll have to show me :)
[/QUOTE]
They (da's) can be valved however you want.
[/QUOTE]
They (da's) can be valved however you want.
| Porter | 08-16-2005 11:01 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]I wonder if it's for a different car? We probably want to make sure we're comparing apples/apples.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. The folks at Tokico USA have told me that the valving on their WRX/STi unit has a great deal more rebound damping than the AGX. Their intention in developing the strut was to make a highly streetable autocross/trackday damper that would take some abuse and handle springrates up to coilover levels (8k+).
I'd love to see what a set of the D-Specs would do with a set of Espelir GT springs and big sway bars on an autocross course.
You are correct. The folks at Tokico USA have told me that the valving on their WRX/STi unit has a great deal more rebound damping than the AGX. Their intention in developing the strut was to make a highly streetable autocross/trackday damper that would take some abuse and handle springrates up to coilover levels (8k+).
I'd love to see what a set of the D-Specs would do with a set of Espelir GT springs and big sway bars on an autocross course.
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-16-2005 11:03 AM |
[QUOTE=ratt_finkel]They (da's) can be valved however you want.[/QUOTE]
I realize that, your statement indicated the KYB's were valved similiar to the DA's. I don't think anyone would revlave their DA's to the offshelf KYB- unles you are saying the offshelf KYB is the bomb?
I realize that, your statement indicated the KYB's were valved similiar to the DA's. I don't think anyone would revlave their DA's to the offshelf KYB- unles you are saying the offshelf KYB is the bomb?
| BIGSKYWRX | 08-16-2005 11:04 AM |
[QUOTE=Porter]You are correct. The folks at Tokico USA have told me that the valving on their WRX/STi unit has a great deal more rebound damping than the AGX. Their intention in developing the strut was to make a highly streetable autocross/trackday damper that would take some abuse and handle springrates up to coilover levels (8k+).
I'd love to see what a set of the D-Specs would do with a set of Espelir GT springs and big sway bars on an autocross course.[/QUOTE]
Would be beneficial if we could see those dyno's :)
I'd love to see what a set of the D-Specs would do with a set of Espelir GT springs and big sway bars on an autocross course.[/QUOTE]
Would be beneficial if we could see those dyno's :)
| Porter | 08-16-2005 11:08 AM |
[QUOTE=BIGSKYWRX]Would be beneficial if we could see those dyno's :)[/QUOTE]
You should email Tokico USA.
You should email Tokico USA.
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