| njskatchmo | 07-16-2006 10:52 PM |
AutoX Tips
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I was hoping to see if anyone had some good autox tips for beginners. Post as you please. I was told I need to brake through the turn and accelerate out of it rather than try to power through it as i do now.
| X WRX | 07-16-2006 11:05 PM |
Some good tips...
1 try raising your tire pressure
2 smooth is fast and fast is slow
3 remove weight ... ie- spare tire and jacks, maybe even rear seats
4 break early
5 don't get tunnel vision... look ahead of where you're going so turns won't sneak up on you
6 make sure you walk the course
just a few tips there
1 try raising your tire pressure
2 smooth is fast and fast is slow
3 remove weight ... ie- spare tire and jacks, maybe even rear seats
4 break early
5 don't get tunnel vision... look ahead of where you're going so turns won't sneak up on you
6 make sure you walk the course
just a few tips there
| rt4me | 07-16-2006 11:14 PM |
There could be a huge list of things to do and not do. I'd say one of the best things is to ask an experienced person to ride with you when you run and see if you can ride with them. Most people that have been autocrossing for a while will be more than happy to help out someone if they know you want to learn. A list of tips you read online is nice but its nothing compared to someone sitting next to you while you run giving you input.
If your area SCCA (or other club) offers a novice school then take it. They're usually pretty cheap, offer good input and seat time. If you've got the money then go for a more serious school like Evolution.
...and remember, have fun!
If your area SCCA (or other club) offers a novice school then take it. They're usually pretty cheap, offer good input and seat time. If you've got the money then go for a more serious school like Evolution.
...and remember, have fun!
| theicewall | 07-16-2006 11:20 PM |
6. Walk the course.... walk the course.... walk the course.... plan out your line, which cones you need to hug real close, which cones are insignificant, and where it is important go be slow and where it is important to be fast.
The autox newbie is usually too fast in the slow section plowing through it and losing time overall, and too slow in the fast section, not taking advantage of the full potential of the vehicle/course.
The autox newbie is usually too fast in the slow section plowing through it and losing time overall, and too slow in the fast section, not taking advantage of the full potential of the vehicle/course.
| silentbob343 | 07-16-2006 11:40 PM |
[QUOTE=X WRX]Some good tips...
1 try raising your tire pressure
2 smooth is fast and fast is slow
3 remove weight ... ie- spare tire and jacks, maybe even rear seats
4 break early
5 don't get tunnel vision... look ahead of where you're going so turns won't sneak up on you
6 make sure you walk the course
just a few tips there[/QUOTE]
I thought it was slow is smooth and smooth is fast? ;)
1 try raising your tire pressure
2 smooth is fast and fast is slow
3 remove weight ... ie- spare tire and jacks, maybe even rear seats
4 break early
5 don't get tunnel vision... look ahead of where you're going so turns won't sneak up on you
6 make sure you walk the course
just a few tips there[/QUOTE]
I thought it was slow is smooth and smooth is fast? ;)
| makofoto | 07-16-2006 11:40 PM |
10 Ten AX Tips:
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url]
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url]
| flyboymike | 07-17-2006 12:17 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]10 Ten AX Tips:
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
I think I'm gonna bookmark that one and read it the night before every event. Thanks mako.
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
I think I'm gonna bookmark that one and read it the night before every event. Thanks mako.
| makofoto | 07-17-2006 12:19 AM |
I just wish I would remember to review it myself! :rolleyes: :D
Tip 11. Tires over Power Mods
Tip 11. Tires over Power Mods
| AndrewSS | 07-17-2006 12:28 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]10 Ten AX Tips:
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Cool, thanks for that link, I feel like I am going back over what got covered (about) at the Evo school ;)
[url]http://dmvrscca.org/topten.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Cool, thanks for that link, I feel like I am going back over what got covered (about) at the Evo school ;)
| flyboymike | 07-17-2006 12:33 AM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]I just wish I would remember to review it myself! :rolleyes: :D
Tip 11. Tires over Power Mods[/QUOTE]
Ooh, Tip 12: Suspension over Power Mods
Tip 11. Tires over Power Mods[/QUOTE]
Ooh, Tip 12: Suspension over Power Mods
| AndrewSS | 07-17-2006 12:34 AM |
[QUOTE=flyboymike]Ooh, Tip 12: Suspension over Power Mods[/QUOTE]
Tip 13: "Mod" the driver before the car.
Tip 13: "Mod" the driver before the car.
| WRXDriftR | 07-17-2006 12:43 AM |
Tip 14: [I]perfect[/I] practice makes perfect
| X WRX | 07-17-2006 12:56 AM |
yeah I meant slow is fast and fast is slow
| X WRX | 07-17-2006 12:58 AM |
I totally agree with handling mods before power mods. The scca won't let the track be extremely fast so there's no need to have a 500 hp car.
| Mykl | 07-17-2006 01:43 AM |
Tip 15: if you live below the Mason-Dixon line bring A LOT of water and ice
Tip 16: bring sunscreen and a huge hat
There's nothing worse than standing around and working, waiting for your runs, only to be cooked and dehydrated when it's your turn to drive.
Tip 16: bring sunscreen and a huge hat
There's nothing worse than standing around and working, waiting for your runs, only to be cooked and dehydrated when it's your turn to drive.
| the_poser | 07-17-2006 08:08 AM |
[QUOTE=Mykl]Tip 15: if you live below the Mason-Dixon line bring A LOT of water and ice
Tip 16: bring sunscreen and a huge hat
There's nothing worse than standing around and working, waiting for your runs, only to be cooked and dehydrated when it's your turn to drive.[/QUOTE]
+1,000,000
walk the course as many times as you can try and get a feel for reading the cones and seeing how you can make turns to help you with the next 2
Tip 16: bring sunscreen and a huge hat
There's nothing worse than standing around and working, waiting for your runs, only to be cooked and dehydrated when it's your turn to drive.[/QUOTE]
+1,000,000
walk the course as many times as you can try and get a feel for reading the cones and seeing how you can make turns to help you with the next 2
| crystalhelix | 07-17-2006 08:20 AM |
[QUOTE=njskatchmo]I was hoping to see if anyone had some good autox tips for beginners. Post as you please. I was told I need to brake through the turn and accelerate out of it rather than try to power through it as i do now.[/QUOTE]
Braking while turning reduces your grip through the turn, you should have done your braking before that point and accelerated through and out of the turn...it will keep your car more settled as well.
all the above is null if you are using left foot braking to induce rotation..
Braking while turning reduces your grip through the turn, you should have done your braking before that point and accelerated through and out of the turn...it will keep your car more settled as well.
all the above is null if you are using left foot braking to induce rotation..
| KC | 07-17-2006 08:32 AM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]all the above is null if you are using left foot braking to induce rotation..[/QUOTE]... or trail braking which is what the original post described to a point.
| crystalhelix | 07-17-2006 08:58 AM |
[QUOTE=KC]... or trail braking which is what the original post described to a point.[/QUOTE]
ah..yes..sometimes reading comprehension owns me..I have gotten mixed opinions on TB, I just keep it simple w/o TB or LFB - there's enough going on anyways ;)
ah..yes..sometimes reading comprehension owns me..I have gotten mixed opinions on TB, I just keep it simple w/o TB or LFB - there's enough going on anyways ;)
| solo-x | 07-17-2006 09:18 AM |
i don't like #4. you don't want to break early, you want to [b]brake[/b] early. :P
| Jack | 07-17-2006 10:01 AM |
#1) You've got to go slow to go fast
#2) Ride with instructors as many times as possible. When one won't take you anymore, ride with another one. Seat time is everything.
jack
#2) Ride with instructors as many times as possible. When one won't take you anymore, ride with another one. Seat time is everything.
jack
| Scooby South | 07-17-2006 10:58 AM |
Tip....Learn what the car will do before you do anything....(in other words, the car is alot more capable than the driver is usually....)....
Bill
Bill
| theicewall | 07-17-2006 12:14 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]ah..yes..sometimes reading comprehension owns me..I have gotten mixed opinions on TB, I just keep it simple w/o TB or LFB - there's enough going on anyways ;)[/QUOTE]
Trail braking is good, but you have to use it right. The best way to do trailbraking is to make a run where you brake to completion before turn in, then on subsequent runs you have a baseline from which to brake a few feet later and add X amount of TB. You can add more as needed, but there is nothing worse than having your trailbrake turn into an oh crap I need to really brake and then a spin and an off course.
Trail braking is good, but you have to use it right. The best way to do trailbraking is to make a run where you brake to completion before turn in, then on subsequent runs you have a baseline from which to brake a few feet later and add X amount of TB. You can add more as needed, but there is nothing worse than having your trailbrake turn into an oh crap I need to really brake and then a spin and an off course.
| Pacobeagle | 07-17-2006 12:17 PM |
definetly learn your car as Bill said. I think that's my biggest gain right there. I trust the car moreso now and I'm willing to push it a little harder. Then again, I've been autoxing this car for about two years with this year being an almost full season.
Jose
Jose
| solo-x | 07-17-2006 12:22 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]Trail braking is good, but you have to use it right. The best way to do trailbraking is to make a run where you brake to completion before turn in, then on subsequent runs you have a baseline from which to brake a few feet later and add X amount of TB. You can add more as needed, but there is nothing worse than having your trailbrake turn into an oh crap I need to really brake and then a spin and an off course.[/QUOTE]
that's a great way to be really slow on your first run and get quicker each subsequent run. a better idea would be to look ahead and KNOW how much you need to slow down before you get there. then you won't get surprised part way into the corner.
that's a great way to be really slow on your first run and get quicker each subsequent run. a better idea would be to look ahead and KNOW how much you need to slow down before you get there. then you won't get surprised part way into the corner.
| njskatchmo | 07-17-2006 01:16 PM |
What exactly is trail braking and left foot braking?
| ITWRX4ME | 07-17-2006 01:30 PM |
Search on those terms. There are dozens of threads here and on the rest of the interweb that describe them.
| theicewall | 07-17-2006 01:33 PM |
There is a cirlce of traction that can best be explained by the percentage rule. You can only use 100% of the traction offered by a tire at any given time? Not so?
How you allocated the traction is up to you... lateral acceleration (cornering) accelerating, braking, or a combination of both.
In the classical theory of race driving you finish all of your braking before cornering... so in time order it goes 100% of tractions towards braking... then 0% braking w/ 100% cornering.... then 0% cornering and 100% accelerating (though acceleration is often close to 100% once the apex is hit)
Problem... you dont do 0% to 100% instantaneously... but rather smoothly. If you break slightly later than you would have normally, you will reach a point when you can ease off the brakes allocating only 90% or 80% then eventually 40% and then 0% of your traction towards braking.... the thing is, you are wasting 10%.. 20%.... 60%... of the usable tire resources by easing off the brake and then not utilizing that traction towards something else. The solution is to do the following, as you decrease your braking, gradually introduce turning of the steering wheel.... that way when you are allocating 80% towards braking you can allocate 20% towards steering... 40% towards braking and you are already at 60% towards steering... etc until you are steering and not braking... the second you hit the apex you essentially do the opposite of trailbraking by applying throttle little by little as you unwind the steering wheel... That way by the time your wheel is unwound you are already at full throttle. You enter the corner slightly hot, and you dont run off the track because you "trail" your braking lightly through the first quater or half of the corner making up for the late braking initially. This requires quite a bit of skill and finess to do correctly and is a great technique for passing by going deeper into the corner though that is of no concern to you as an autox'er. The thing is that you must become very familiar with what 100% of your traction is before you can start allocating, and accidentally allocating 60% braking and 60% turning leaves you 20 feet off the course wondering what happened?
Left foot braking some people like but I dont really like because it feels awkward as all hell to me, plus I like to be able to clutch and change gears and whatnot... but the idea is for a slow speed turn if you brake with you left foot... while you are braking you can apply throttle (this of course means you have to brake harder since you are simultaneously accelerating too) and you will build a lot of boost doing this even though you are going slowly such that the second you release the brake and go full throttle you will have a lot of boost and avoid some of the laggy sitting around and waiting for boost to donkey punch you in the helmet.
How you allocated the traction is up to you... lateral acceleration (cornering) accelerating, braking, or a combination of both.
In the classical theory of race driving you finish all of your braking before cornering... so in time order it goes 100% of tractions towards braking... then 0% braking w/ 100% cornering.... then 0% cornering and 100% accelerating (though acceleration is often close to 100% once the apex is hit)
Problem... you dont do 0% to 100% instantaneously... but rather smoothly. If you break slightly later than you would have normally, you will reach a point when you can ease off the brakes allocating only 90% or 80% then eventually 40% and then 0% of your traction towards braking.... the thing is, you are wasting 10%.. 20%.... 60%... of the usable tire resources by easing off the brake and then not utilizing that traction towards something else. The solution is to do the following, as you decrease your braking, gradually introduce turning of the steering wheel.... that way when you are allocating 80% towards braking you can allocate 20% towards steering... 40% towards braking and you are already at 60% towards steering... etc until you are steering and not braking... the second you hit the apex you essentially do the opposite of trailbraking by applying throttle little by little as you unwind the steering wheel... That way by the time your wheel is unwound you are already at full throttle. You enter the corner slightly hot, and you dont run off the track because you "trail" your braking lightly through the first quater or half of the corner making up for the late braking initially. This requires quite a bit of skill and finess to do correctly and is a great technique for passing by going deeper into the corner though that is of no concern to you as an autox'er. The thing is that you must become very familiar with what 100% of your traction is before you can start allocating, and accidentally allocating 60% braking and 60% turning leaves you 20 feet off the course wondering what happened?
Left foot braking some people like but I dont really like because it feels awkward as all hell to me, plus I like to be able to clutch and change gears and whatnot... but the idea is for a slow speed turn if you brake with you left foot... while you are braking you can apply throttle (this of course means you have to brake harder since you are simultaneously accelerating too) and you will build a lot of boost doing this even though you are going slowly such that the second you release the brake and go full throttle you will have a lot of boost and avoid some of the laggy sitting around and waiting for boost to donkey punch you in the helmet.
| nKoan | 07-17-2006 01:38 PM |
Keep your eyes up. You shouldn't be looking at the corner directly in front of you (you should already be set up for that anyway). Look at least one corner away and try to setup the exit of the current corner to the entrance of the next. And smooth feels slow, but can be faster.
| crystalhelix | 07-17-2006 01:44 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]Trail braking is good, but you have to use it right. The best way to do trailbraking is to make a run where you brake to completion before turn in, then on subsequent runs you have a baseline from which to brake a few feet later and add X amount of TB. You can add more as needed, but there is nothing worse than having your trailbrake turn into an oh crap I need to really brake and then a spin and an off course.[/QUOTE]
After two EVO schools and multiple instructors including Kevin Deitz tell me that trail braking isn't the way to go I haven't bothered trying it although I think I do it by accident everyonce in a while when I carry a braking zone too close to a turn.....guilty as charged.. :rolleyes:
After two EVO schools and multiple instructors including Kevin Deitz tell me that trail braking isn't the way to go I haven't bothered trying it although I think I do it by accident everyonce in a while when I carry a braking zone too close to a turn.....guilty as charged.. :rolleyes:
| theicewall | 07-17-2006 04:47 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]After two EVO schools and multiple instructors including Kevin Deitz tell me that trail braking isn't the way to go I haven't bothered trying it although I think I do it by accident everyonce in a while when I carry a braking zone too close to a turn.....guilty as charged.. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
I dont think there is a definitive yes you should use it or no you shouldnt, but rath a case by case turn by turn decision. I find it particularly useful if I want to carry a lot of speed through a turn and get good turn in. Having some brakes on keeps the weight of the car very much forward into the turn and then at the apex when you release the brakes and the weight is OFF the rear and you get back on throttle your rear pushes your nose into the turn better much like having a far stiffer rear sway bar. Sometimes that does miracles for you, and other times it costs you time depending on the situation and the dynamic movements of the car. There is one particular downhill corner I love to use it on where I hit 60 in 2nd and full on brake down to 38... but at entry I am doing close to 42. I carried a few more feet of high speed on the straight and I carried an extra 4 mph through the corner... but the next corner is the slowest corner on the track and I need to be entering it at 38 anyway so due to this trailbraking I can then just apply full throttle early through this low speed corner and then take the first of the next two left handers at WOT and the second with a very brief lift throttle slide to the rumble strip. (this is an autox, and yes there is a rumble strip... its on a go-kart track which is pretty fun)
I dont think there is a definitive yes you should use it or no you shouldnt, but rath a case by case turn by turn decision. I find it particularly useful if I want to carry a lot of speed through a turn and get good turn in. Having some brakes on keeps the weight of the car very much forward into the turn and then at the apex when you release the brakes and the weight is OFF the rear and you get back on throttle your rear pushes your nose into the turn better much like having a far stiffer rear sway bar. Sometimes that does miracles for you, and other times it costs you time depending on the situation and the dynamic movements of the car. There is one particular downhill corner I love to use it on where I hit 60 in 2nd and full on brake down to 38... but at entry I am doing close to 42. I carried a few more feet of high speed on the straight and I carried an extra 4 mph through the corner... but the next corner is the slowest corner on the track and I need to be entering it at 38 anyway so due to this trailbraking I can then just apply full throttle early through this low speed corner and then take the first of the next two left handers at WOT and the second with a very brief lift throttle slide to the rumble strip. (this is an autox, and yes there is a rumble strip... its on a go-kart track which is pretty fun)
| sachilles | 07-18-2006 10:58 AM |
as someone mentioned walk the course.
Walk the course so you can see it. If you have a group of people in front of you that obsucres the gates ahead of you, wait until it clears up before you continue walking. Walking the course does no good if you can't see it.
When you walk the course, walk it as though you are in a car, make gentle turns. If you are passing a cone on the left, you should walk close to the cone.
If you are passing a cone on your right, you should have almost a width of a car's distance between you and the cone(providing you don't driver a right hand drive car).
Take your first run at 60% of how fast you think you can go. It helps you get the course down. If you lose the course on your first run, that negative image will stick with you the rest of the day and likely screw up the rest of your runs to follow.
Walk the course so you can see it. If you have a group of people in front of you that obsucres the gates ahead of you, wait until it clears up before you continue walking. Walking the course does no good if you can't see it.
When you walk the course, walk it as though you are in a car, make gentle turns. If you are passing a cone on the left, you should walk close to the cone.
If you are passing a cone on your right, you should have almost a width of a car's distance between you and the cone(providing you don't driver a right hand drive car).
Take your first run at 60% of how fast you think you can go. It helps you get the course down. If you lose the course on your first run, that negative image will stick with you the rest of the day and likely screw up the rest of your runs to follow.
| jcroy66 | 07-18-2006 11:15 AM |
[QUOTE=sachilles] If you are passing a cone on your right, you should have almost a width of a car's distance between you and the cone[/QUOTE]I disagree. I think that if [i]most people[/i] walk the way you are describing, they will drive the course with the car significantly farther off the cone than ideal. It may work for you, but I don't think it would for most people.
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 11:16 AM |
When you get 3 chances each day at a national tour
1 - go nuts
2 - go clean
3 - go nuts and clean
:)
1 - go nuts
2 - go clean
3 - go nuts and clean
:)
| jcroy66 | 07-18-2006 11:20 AM |
[QUOTE=sachilles] Take your first run at 60% of how fast you think you can go. It helps you get the course down.[/QUOTE]I would also only recommend this for the total newb. I'd guess that once you have 2-3 events under your belt, you should be capable of driving a course at at least 80-90% on your first run. And after about a season, you should be capable of driving the course at 100% on your very first run. (Note that you would not necessarily be [i]executing[/i] perfectly on your first run of course, just that you shouldn't be lollygagging to "see where the course goes".)
| sachilles | 07-18-2006 11:38 AM |
This is for a beginner, no?
A beginner should all but waste their first run in my opinion. Speed will come.
I'm also of the opinion, that they should learn to do clean runs first, if that means they miss the cone by a mile, than so be it. Hitting a cone as a newbie, really messes with their head. They know they hit at the time of contact, and can't stop thinking about it until well after the run is over, which keeps them from the task of driving.
Just my opinion.
A beginner should all but waste their first run in my opinion. Speed will come.
I'm also of the opinion, that they should learn to do clean runs first, if that means they miss the cone by a mile, than so be it. Hitting a cone as a newbie, really messes with their head. They know they hit at the time of contact, and can't stop thinking about it until well after the run is over, which keeps them from the task of driving.
Just my opinion.
| jcroy66 | 07-18-2006 12:33 PM |
I don't know, I think I'd have rather someone have taught me good technique (i.e. how to be fast) instead of teaching me to be clean at all costs.
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 12:45 PM |
I think jen agreed with you, in a way, lol.
| jcroy66 | 07-18-2006 12:54 PM |
Yes, I was agreeing on the "first run at 60%" part. I just wanted to make sure it was clear that advice was for TRUE beginners, not just someone who FEELS like a beginner. :) Heck, I fall into that category a lot of days. :)
| wrx2.0 555 | 07-18-2006 12:59 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]I don't know, I think I'd have rather someone have taught me good technique (i.e. how to be fast) instead of teaching me to be clean at all costs.[/QUOTE]
If you're not hitting cones, you're not driving fast enough.... Just as Mike King :lol: :lol:
Seriously though.....I've come to the opinion that looking ahead is the single biggest key to bringing all of the other elements together in the run.
You cant know when to brake early or turn earlier if you're not looking ahead.
IMO..looking ahead induces these other aspects naturally...[I]to a certain extent of course...[/I]
Looking ahead will also help prevent you from oversteering a corner or over braking because your mind is already aware of whats to come whats necessary to get there. Of course, this takes time to prefect, but if I were to concentrate on any single point, it'd be looking ahead.
Just remember....THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT WHERE YOU'RE AT, JUST WHERE YOU'RE GOING!!!
If you're not hitting cones, you're not driving fast enough.... Just as Mike King :lol: :lol:
Seriously though.....I've come to the opinion that looking ahead is the single biggest key to bringing all of the other elements together in the run.
You cant know when to brake early or turn earlier if you're not looking ahead.
IMO..looking ahead induces these other aspects naturally...[I]to a certain extent of course...[/I]
Looking ahead will also help prevent you from oversteering a corner or over braking because your mind is already aware of whats to come whats necessary to get there. Of course, this takes time to prefect, but if I were to concentrate on any single point, it'd be looking ahead.
Just remember....THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT WHERE YOU'RE AT, JUST WHERE YOU'RE GOING!!!
| thorongil | 07-18-2006 01:19 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555]Just remember....THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT WHERE YOU'RE AT, JUST WHERE YOU'RE GOING!!![/QUOTE]
Whoa, that's so philosophical...seriously.
Somebody should write a book giving life lessons learned from autocrossing. ;)
Whoa, that's so philosophical...seriously.
Somebody should write a book giving life lessons learned from autocrossing. ;)
| sachilles | 07-18-2006 01:26 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555]
Just remember....THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT WHERE YOU'RE AT, JUST WHERE YOU'RE GOING!!![/QUOTE]
That is kind of my point on the clean run thing.
I think some of you may have misunderstood my intent.
Most newbies and many veterans get all flustered when they hit a cone. Hitting a cone shouldn't be a big deal, a kin to having a bug smack your windshield....its done, it has happened, you can't undo it, so move on.
Problem is when a newbie hits a cone, they tend to dwell on it, and tend to forget the task at hand...driving smooth.
I'll concede that there are times when hitting a cone is the smartest thing to do, rather than making do with a really bad line. I honestly think that is wasted a bit on a newcomber.
Perhaps I should have phrased it something like: try to avoid hitting the cones, but if you should happen to hit a cone, its not the end of the world. Forget about until the run is over...and when you are in the car, only worry about what is ahead of you.
That being said, you make it sound as though being clean means you won't be fast, which I disagree with.
Some people push past the envelope to see where the edge is and can reign themselves back in. Others creep out to the edge, inch by inch.
Good technique can be learned without hitting cones early in you education. In the events i've attended, I haven't seen ftd from someone who has hit a cone during that run.
unless out of all of this, you mean touch a cone, ie, not knocking it over, or out of the box........ :lol: which I'd love to be a fly on the wall as you teach a newbie how to do this.
Remember this is for a beginner, not beginner to nationals.
Remember your first autocross? Was your line anywhere near ideal? Were you competitive on day one?
Just remember....THERES NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT WHERE YOU'RE AT, JUST WHERE YOU'RE GOING!!![/QUOTE]
That is kind of my point on the clean run thing.
I think some of you may have misunderstood my intent.
Most newbies and many veterans get all flustered when they hit a cone. Hitting a cone shouldn't be a big deal, a kin to having a bug smack your windshield....its done, it has happened, you can't undo it, so move on.
Problem is when a newbie hits a cone, they tend to dwell on it, and tend to forget the task at hand...driving smooth.
I'll concede that there are times when hitting a cone is the smartest thing to do, rather than making do with a really bad line. I honestly think that is wasted a bit on a newcomber.
Perhaps I should have phrased it something like: try to avoid hitting the cones, but if you should happen to hit a cone, its not the end of the world. Forget about until the run is over...and when you are in the car, only worry about what is ahead of you.
That being said, you make it sound as though being clean means you won't be fast, which I disagree with.
Some people push past the envelope to see where the edge is and can reign themselves back in. Others creep out to the edge, inch by inch.
Good technique can be learned without hitting cones early in you education. In the events i've attended, I haven't seen ftd from someone who has hit a cone during that run.
unless out of all of this, you mean touch a cone, ie, not knocking it over, or out of the box........ :lol: which I'd love to be a fly on the wall as you teach a newbie how to do this.
Remember this is for a beginner, not beginner to nationals.
Remember your first autocross? Was your line anywhere near ideal? Were you competitive on day one?
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 01:43 PM |
[QUOTE=sachilles]
Most newbies and many veterans get all flustered when they hit a cone. Hitting a cone shouldn't be a big deal, [/QUOTE]
When I know I am going to hit one I usually try to really get it good, and accelerate through the cone... ;)
Usually involves explitives..then oh....more explitives...then I try to push it the rest of the run because I might as well learn the limits because it just became a free run to screw up on....
Most newbies and many veterans get all flustered when they hit a cone. Hitting a cone shouldn't be a big deal, [/QUOTE]
When I know I am going to hit one I usually try to really get it good, and accelerate through the cone... ;)
Usually involves explitives..then oh....more explitives...then I try to push it the rest of the run because I might as well learn the limits because it just became a free run to screw up on....
| theicewall | 07-18-2006 02:13 PM |
Hitting a cone shouldnt be a big deal in your mind, but you will be a good 2 seconds out from being competitive if the rest of your run is flawless.
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 02:36 PM |
just be fast enough it doesn't matter if you hit a cone....
| nKoan | 07-18-2006 02:51 PM |
Hitting cones sometimes is necessary. Not necessary for that specific run, no, that makes the run worse. But if you aren't hitting cones from time to time you aren't pushing yourself/the car enough.
When I started, I hit a lot of cones. Then I got better and stopped hitting cones but my times weren't improving much. When I stopped worrying about hitting cones and just tried to go faster, I started hitting cones again. Eventually, I smoothed out, and now I'm faster and don't hit cones. And now that I'm in a comfortable plateau again (of not hitting cones and being smooth) its time to don my pylon assasin mask.
When I started, I hit a lot of cones. Then I got better and stopped hitting cones but my times weren't improving much. When I stopped worrying about hitting cones and just tried to go faster, I started hitting cones again. Eventually, I smoothed out, and now I'm faster and don't hit cones. And now that I'm in a comfortable plateau again (of not hitting cones and being smooth) its time to don my pylon assasin mask.
| sachilles | 07-18-2006 03:20 PM |
continuing with the cones, I think cones on the inside vs cones on the outside of a gate is a debate here.
I think newbies tend to go into a corner too hot and plow throw an outside cone. That is what I'm discouraging...as that is almost never "close" to being the fast line.
Cones that are on the inside of a corner that you nip are more acceptable in my opinion.
Hitting a cone with the side of your car or tire is OK. Hitting a cone with your front bumper, not OK.
Hitting cone with rear bumper, entertaining, but definately not the fastest way around the course.
I think newbies tend to go into a corner too hot and plow throw an outside cone. That is what I'm discouraging...as that is almost never "close" to being the fast line.
Cones that are on the inside of a corner that you nip are more acceptable in my opinion.
Hitting a cone with the side of your car or tire is OK. Hitting a cone with your front bumper, not OK.
Hitting cone with rear bumper, entertaining, but definately not the fastest way around the course.
| jcroy66 | 07-18-2006 03:40 PM |
[QUOTE=sachilles]That being said, you make it sound as though being clean means you won't be fast, which I disagree with.[/QUOTE]That wasn't my intention, nKoan beat me to the reply I was going to make:
[QUOTE=nKoan]But if you aren't hitting cones from time to time you aren't pushing yourself/the car enough.[/QUOTE]That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It's like the skier who brags that he never falls down. "All that means is you're not pushing yourself hard enough." You need to go past the edge every once in a while in order to have any clue of where the edge is. Most newbies don't have a problem finding the edge of control and adhesion. Or finding the outside edge of a corner. But what they do have a problem with is finding the edge of "How close to the inside of this corner can I get?" Or "How tight can I take this slalom?" Because while many newbies slaughter cones in a slalom, it's usually not because they're taking it too tight, it's because they're getting wildly out of control because of going too fast and making the turns too [i]big[/i].
[QUOTE=sachilles]Were you competitive on day one?[/QUOTE]Hahahahaha. I believe the exact quote from the announcer was "Ohhhhh, Jennifer Croy, not gonna be a contender..." when he saw my run/time. FWIW, I was indeed following the "take your first run at 60% so you're sure you have a time and know where the course goes" advice from a friend who'd DNF'd every run his first time at an autocross.
[QUOTE=nKoan]But if you aren't hitting cones from time to time you aren't pushing yourself/the car enough.[/QUOTE]That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It's like the skier who brags that he never falls down. "All that means is you're not pushing yourself hard enough." You need to go past the edge every once in a while in order to have any clue of where the edge is. Most newbies don't have a problem finding the edge of control and adhesion. Or finding the outside edge of a corner. But what they do have a problem with is finding the edge of "How close to the inside of this corner can I get?" Or "How tight can I take this slalom?" Because while many newbies slaughter cones in a slalom, it's usually not because they're taking it too tight, it's because they're getting wildly out of control because of going too fast and making the turns too [i]big[/i].
[QUOTE=sachilles]Were you competitive on day one?[/QUOTE]Hahahahaha. I believe the exact quote from the announcer was "Ohhhhh, Jennifer Croy, not gonna be a contender..." when he saw my run/time. FWIW, I was indeed following the "take your first run at 60% so you're sure you have a time and know where the course goes" advice from a friend who'd DNF'd every run his first time at an autocross.
| flyboymike | 07-18-2006 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE=wrx2.0 555]
Seriously though.....I've come to the opinion that looking ahead is the single biggest key to bringing all of the other elements together in the run.
[/QUOTE]
No doubt. You can't go faster than your eyes. This is also a nice skill to transfer to your street driving.
Seriously though.....I've come to the opinion that looking ahead is the single biggest key to bringing all of the other elements together in the run.
[/QUOTE]
No doubt. You can't go faster than your eyes. This is also a nice skill to transfer to your street driving.
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 03:51 PM |
I always wonder how the CM-AM cars can even see that fast...
| sachilles | 07-18-2006 03:58 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]That wasn't my intention, nKoan beat me to the reply I was going to make:
That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It's like the skier who brags that he never falls down. "All that means is you're not pushing yourself hard enough." You need to go past the edge every once in a while in order to have any clue of where the edge is. Most newbies don't have a problem finding the edge of control and adhesion. Or finding the outside edge of a corner. But what they do have a problem with is finding the edge of "How close to the inside of this corner can I get?" Or "How tight can I take this slalom?" Because while many newbies slaughter cones in a slalom, it's usually not because they're taking it too tight, it's because they're getting wildly out of control because of going too fast and making the turns too [i]big[/i].
Hahahahaha. I believe the exact quote from the announcer was "Ohhhhh, Jennifer Croy, not gonna be a contender..." when he saw my run/time. FWIW, I was indeed following the "take your first run at 60% so you're sure you have a time and know where the course goes" advice from a friend who'd DNF'd every run his first time at an autocross.[/QUOTE]
I think we are on the same page then. Just explaining it differently.
That was exactly the point I was trying to make. It's like the skier who brags that he never falls down. "All that means is you're not pushing yourself hard enough." You need to go past the edge every once in a while in order to have any clue of where the edge is. Most newbies don't have a problem finding the edge of control and adhesion. Or finding the outside edge of a corner. But what they do have a problem with is finding the edge of "How close to the inside of this corner can I get?" Or "How tight can I take this slalom?" Because while many newbies slaughter cones in a slalom, it's usually not because they're taking it too tight, it's because they're getting wildly out of control because of going too fast and making the turns too [i]big[/i].
Hahahahaha. I believe the exact quote from the announcer was "Ohhhhh, Jennifer Croy, not gonna be a contender..." when he saw my run/time. FWIW, I was indeed following the "take your first run at 60% so you're sure you have a time and know where the course goes" advice from a friend who'd DNF'd every run his first time at an autocross.[/QUOTE]
I think we are on the same page then. Just explaining it differently.
| boostpowerPuertoRico | 07-18-2006 06:13 PM |
practice all day!!!!!!!!
| solo-x | 07-18-2006 11:00 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix]I always wonder how the CM-AM cars can even see that fast...[/QUOTE]
you don't see faster in a faster car, you look further ahead. you literally drive as fast as your brain can process what your hands, butt, feet, eyes, ears, and nose are sending it for information. it's easier to do when the car is handling good and predictably, something the Reynard i'm driving this year has been lacking a bit. coming back to the the STS car or any other car from the CM is a cake walk though. everything happens so s l o w l y . . . . .
you don't see faster in a faster car, you look further ahead. you literally drive as fast as your brain can process what your hands, butt, feet, eyes, ears, and nose are sending it for information. it's easier to do when the car is handling good and predictably, something the Reynard i'm driving this year has been lacking a bit. coming back to the the STS car or any other car from the CM is a cake walk though. everything happens so s l o w l y . . . . .
| crystalhelix | 07-18-2006 11:07 PM |
yeah, it's the looking to the end of the course I am worried about :P
| SWortham | 07-19-2006 12:00 PM |
Lots of good suggestions here.
The #1 thing I'd suggest is to show up early so you have time to walk the course 3 times. No less than that. Knowing the course is one of the biggest challenges of autocrossing and you don't have much time to learn it. You may even consider drawing a little course map for yourself if there isn't one provided.
On your first run I would start off trying to be clean, smooth, and brake early. Try not to overshoot any corners, and try to hit every apex even if you're not on the limit. On each subsequent run you should push a little harder and deeper into the corners, all while fine tuning your technique.
By the end of the day you may hit a few cones but that's fine. Some of the best drivers hit cones on half of their runs, so don't feel bad about that.
That's about all I have to add.
The #1 thing I'd suggest is to show up early so you have time to walk the course 3 times. No less than that. Knowing the course is one of the biggest challenges of autocrossing and you don't have much time to learn it. You may even consider drawing a little course map for yourself if there isn't one provided.
On your first run I would start off trying to be clean, smooth, and brake early. Try not to overshoot any corners, and try to hit every apex even if you're not on the limit. On each subsequent run you should push a little harder and deeper into the corners, all while fine tuning your technique.
By the end of the day you may hit a few cones but that's fine. Some of the best drivers hit cones on half of their runs, so don't feel bad about that.
That's about all I have to add.
| pittspilot | 07-19-2006 12:04 PM |
Quick question.
Are the folks that give rides credited for the extra weight. I would think that carrying another person on your run would have a significantly detrimental impact on your time.
Are the folks that give rides credited for the extra weight. I would think that carrying another person on your run would have a significantly detrimental impact on your time.
| SWortham | 07-19-2006 12:10 PM |
^ Nope. If you're carrying an extra passenger your time will be hurt, no question. So the people interested in winning may not be offering rides... unless they just don't mind throwing out a run or two.
| tuskenraider | 07-19-2006 12:13 PM |
[QUOTE]Are the folks that give rides credited for the extra weight.[/QUOTE] No and it would be practically impossible to fairly do something like that. You won't see people giving rides on their last run while fighting for a class win either.
Edit: beat to it
Edit: beat to it
| jcroy66 | 07-19-2006 12:19 PM |
[QUOTE=pittspilot]Are the folks that give rides credited for the extra weight.[/QUOTE]Nope. At least nowhere I've ever heard of.
[QUOTE=pittspilot]I would think that carrying another person on your run would have a significantly detrimental impact on your time.[/QUOTE]Not really that significant. From my experience, I'd say about half a second for your average person-weight and course.
If you want to debate the "passenger ride-along" issue, I suggest you read this thread throughly first. It's got basically every single argument imaginable, both pro/con. [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/200061.aspx[/url]
[QUOTE=pittspilot]I would think that carrying another person on your run would have a significantly detrimental impact on your time.[/QUOTE]Not really that significant. From my experience, I'd say about half a second for your average person-weight and course.
If you want to debate the "passenger ride-along" issue, I suggest you read this thread throughly first. It's got basically every single argument imaginable, both pro/con. [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/200061.aspx[/url]
| SWortham | 07-19-2006 12:26 PM |
It depends on a lot of things but in my Hyundai I think I lost closer to 1 second when I had a passenger. That was on a ~55 second course. It's enough to hurt your chances if you have close competition.
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