| rankink | 11-21-2006 09:47 AM |
2007 PAX Calculation out
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[B]The 2007 PAX numbers are out already.[/B]
Here is the link for them: [url]http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2007.html[/url]
Here is a link to a excel spreadsheet comparing 06 to 07: [url]http://scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/2007/RTP06vs07.xls[/url]
Here is the link for them: [url]http://scca-chicago.com/solo/indexes/rtp2007.html[/url]
Here is a link to a excel spreadsheet comparing 06 to 07: [url]http://scca-milwaukee.org/Solo/2007/RTP06vs07.xls[/url]
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 09:48 AM |
2007 PAX Index
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Percent change based on FJ4 being largest leap:
[CODE]
Class 2006 2007 Change Percent
SS 0.84 0.848 0.008 57%
AS 0.831 0.838 0.007 50%
BS 0.822 0.828 0.006 43%
CS 0.813 0.822 0.009 64%
DS 0.798 0.804 0.006 43%
ES 0.806 0.812 0.006 43%
FS 0.805 0.809 0.004 29%
GS 0.794 0.803 0.009 64%
HS 0.78 0.789 0.009 64%
ASP 0.852 0.858 0.006 43%
BSP 0.843 0.853 0.010 71%
CSP 0.838 0.845 0.007 50%
DSP 0.829 0.836 0.007 50%
ESP 0.828 0.834 0.006 43%
FSP 0.814 0.823 0.009 64%
STS 0.797 0.805 0.008 57%
STS2 0.802 0.806 0.004 29%
STX 0.804 0.808 0.004 29%
STU 0.82 0.821 0.001 7%
SM 0.845 0.856 0.011 79%
SM2 0.854 0.862 0.008 57%
XP 0.868 0.874 0.006 43%
BP 0.862 0.866 0.004 29%
CP 0.856 0.864 0.008 57%
DP 0.853 0.860 0.007 50%
EP 0.858 0.863 0.005 36%
FP 0.863 0.868 0.005 36%
GP 0.844 0.847 0.003 21%
AM 1 1.000 0.000 0%
BM 0.944 0.944 0.000 0%
CM 0.909 0.909 0.000 0%
DM 0.885 0.889 0.004 29%
EM 0.881 0.879 -0.002 -14%
FM 0.887 0.890 0.003 21%
FSAE 0.948 0.949 0.001 7%
F125 0.937 0.946 0.009 64%
FJ1 0.781 0.790 0.009 64%
FJ2 0.796 0.800 0.004 29%
FJ3 0.83 0.833 0.003 21%
FJ4 0.837 0.851 0.014 100%[/CODE]
[CODE]
Class 2006 2007 Change Percent
SS 0.84 0.848 0.008 57%
AS 0.831 0.838 0.007 50%
BS 0.822 0.828 0.006 43%
CS 0.813 0.822 0.009 64%
DS 0.798 0.804 0.006 43%
ES 0.806 0.812 0.006 43%
FS 0.805 0.809 0.004 29%
GS 0.794 0.803 0.009 64%
HS 0.78 0.789 0.009 64%
ASP 0.852 0.858 0.006 43%
BSP 0.843 0.853 0.010 71%
CSP 0.838 0.845 0.007 50%
DSP 0.829 0.836 0.007 50%
ESP 0.828 0.834 0.006 43%
FSP 0.814 0.823 0.009 64%
STS 0.797 0.805 0.008 57%
STS2 0.802 0.806 0.004 29%
STX 0.804 0.808 0.004 29%
STU 0.82 0.821 0.001 7%
SM 0.845 0.856 0.011 79%
SM2 0.854 0.862 0.008 57%
XP 0.868 0.874 0.006 43%
BP 0.862 0.866 0.004 29%
CP 0.856 0.864 0.008 57%
DP 0.853 0.860 0.007 50%
EP 0.858 0.863 0.005 36%
FP 0.863 0.868 0.005 36%
GP 0.844 0.847 0.003 21%
AM 1 1.000 0.000 0%
BM 0.944 0.944 0.000 0%
CM 0.909 0.909 0.000 0%
DM 0.885 0.889 0.004 29%
EM 0.881 0.879 -0.002 -14%
FM 0.887 0.890 0.003 21%
FSAE 0.948 0.949 0.001 7%
F125 0.937 0.946 0.009 64%
FJ1 0.781 0.790 0.009 64%
FJ2 0.796 0.800 0.004 29%
FJ3 0.83 0.833 0.003 21%
FJ4 0.837 0.851 0.014 100%[/CODE]
| rankink | 11-21-2006 09:52 AM |
I beat you!
| KC | 11-21-2006 09:52 AM |
[QUOTE=rankink;16065595][B]The 2006 PAX numbers are out already.[/B][/QUOTE]Yeah, we know. But the 2007s would be cool to have too. ;) :p
--kC
--kC
| rankink | 11-21-2006 09:58 AM |
[QUOTE=KC;16065678]Yeah, we know. But the 2007s would be cool to have too. ;) :p
--kC[/QUOTE]
Damn you and your superior reading comprehension. Fixed.
--kC[/QUOTE]
Damn you and your superior reading comprehension. Fixed.
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 10:00 AM |
damn...lots of positive stuff...
bill - can you delete my thread...rankink schooled me...
bill - can you delete my thread...rankink schooled me...
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 10:00 AM |
man, I hate coming 2nd, lol..
| KC | 11-21-2006 10:01 AM |
This is, by far, the widest, sweeping change I've ever seen in PAX in any one year. For regions that have PAX battles, it's going to be very interesting.
Changes:
SS +.008
AS +.007
BS +.006
CS +.009
DS +.006
ES +.006
FS +.004
GS +.009
HS +.009
ASP +.006
BSP +.010
CSP +.007
DSP +.007
ESP +.006
FSP +.009
STS +.008
STS2 +.004
STX +.004
STU +.001
SM +.011
SM2 +.008
XP +.874
BP +.004
CP +.008
DP +.007
EP +.005
FP +.005
GP +.003
AM 0
BM 0
CM 0
DM +.004
EM -.002
FM +.003
FASE +.001
F125 +.009
FJ1 +.009
FJ2 +.004
FJ3 +.003
FJ4 +.014
--kC
Changes:
SS +.008
AS +.007
BS +.006
CS +.009
DS +.006
ES +.006
FS +.004
GS +.009
HS +.009
ASP +.006
BSP +.010
CSP +.007
DSP +.007
ESP +.006
FSP +.009
STS +.008
STS2 +.004
STX +.004
STU +.001
SM +.011
SM2 +.008
XP +.874
BP +.004
CP +.008
DP +.007
EP +.005
FP +.005
GP +.003
AM 0
BM 0
CM 0
DM +.004
EM -.002
FM +.003
FASE +.001
F125 +.009
FJ1 +.009
FJ2 +.004
FJ3 +.003
FJ4 +.014
--kC
| rankink | 11-21-2006 10:07 AM |
Only by one minute too. Probably less than that.
Bill - just merge them
Bill - just merge them
| rankink | 11-21-2006 10:11 AM |
I knew SM & BSP would get large bumps, but did not expect AS to get what it did. I thought DS should get a larger bump though and STU's PAX is looking good with only a 0.001 bump.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 10:34 AM |
now that I merged them...
:furious: :furious: :furious: WTH is with this..I HATE PAX....How can a BSP car have a HIGHER friggen PAX than a ASP or SS car...and WHO the hell decided this was what it needed to be....:monkey: PAX...Yeah...so some scrub driver drives a Z06 in ASP and gets WAXED....and my PAX goes up...Screw them...
:furious: :mad:
Bill
:furious: :furious: :furious: WTH is with this..I HATE PAX....How can a BSP car have a HIGHER friggen PAX than a ASP or SS car...and WHO the hell decided this was what it needed to be....:monkey: PAX...Yeah...so some scrub driver drives a Z06 in ASP and gets WAXED....and my PAX goes up...Screw them...
:furious: :mad:
Bill
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 10:49 AM |
Hmmmmmm. I think that's the first time I've ever heard Junior Johnson described as a "scrub driver". Well, I guess he wasn't driving a Z06. But you're saying that Rod McGeorge is a scrub driver? Or Hector? Or perhaps the non-Z06 ASP drivers, like Junior and Scotty B White?
| KC | 11-21-2006 10:51 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16066424]Hmmmmmm. I think that's the first time I've ever heard Junior Johnson described as a "scrub driver". Well, I guess he wasn't driving a Z06. But you're saying that Rod McGeorge is a scrub driver? Or Hector? Or perhaps the non-Z06 ASP drivers, like Junior and Scotty B White?[/QUOTE]
Hacks. All of them.
Hacks. All of them.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 10:55 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16066424]Hmmmmmm. I think that's the first time I've ever heard Junior Johnson described as a "scrub driver". Well, I guess he wasn't driving a Z06. But you're saying that Rod McGeorge is a scrub driver? Or Hector? Or perhaps the non-Z06 ASP drivers, like Junior and Scotty B White?[/QUOTE]
Sorry just frustration coming out.....
[QUOTE=KC;16066467]Hacks. All of them.[/QUOTE]
you said it...not me...
Sorry just frustration coming out.....
[QUOTE=KC;16066467]Hacks. All of them.[/QUOTE]
you said it...not me...
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 10:57 AM |
I will say this....the next time some ASP guy thumbs his nose at my car...I will politely remind of the pax ....;)...
Pax is stupid....period....
Bill
Pax is stupid....period....
Bill
| motoring | 11-21-2006 11:02 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South;16066189]How can a BSP car have a HIGHER friggen PAX than a ASP or SS car...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Ummm, BSP is not higher than ASP, and BSP was higher than SS last year as well. Maybe Rick just figured that the full extent of the improvement in the BSP Rally Cars has not been realized yet...
Bill[/QUOTE]
Ummm, BSP is not higher than ASP, and BSP was higher than SS last year as well. Maybe Rick just figured that the full extent of the improvement in the BSP Rally Cars has not been realized yet...
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:03 AM |
As KC said, it might be interesting for regions with PAX battles. But look at which classes changed the "most". The biggest "net" differences will be for mod cars (most get a lot softer relatively) and for FJ4, SM, and BSP (gettng a lot harder). Fully-prepped and well-driven mod cars or SM cars are rare at a local level. Also true for BSP, although to a lesser degree (i.e. at a local level, BSP cars are a lot more likely to be at least halfway prepped than SM, for instance).
So I don't think the change will be quite as dramatic as it first appears.
FWIW, average bump was +0.0057.
So I don't think the change will be quite as dramatic as it first appears.
FWIW, average bump was +0.0057.
| speedyHAM | 11-21-2006 11:08 AM |
This really tells me that those A-Mod drivers need to step it up.
As if the SM pax wasn't bad enough already... at least HS got a good bump.
As if the SM pax wasn't bad enough already... at least HS got a good bump.
| solo-x | 11-21-2006 11:11 AM |
horry krap!!! so much for beating grant, mike, and chris on index!
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 11:16 AM |
[QUOTE=motoring;16066660]Ummm, BSP is not higher than ASP, and BSP was higher than SS last year as well. Maybe Rick just figured that the full extent of the improvement in the BSP Rally Cars has not been realized yet...[/QUOTE]
Doh....you're right....my frustration got ahead of my brain...I was looking at last years ASP vs. this years. BSP ....sorry...But still...just because some decent drivers came out in BSP this year...all of a sudden its one of the "elite" classes...I mean....theres only 3 higher than BSP...SM, SM2, and ASP....I don't aggree with it..never have...never will...throw the SAME driver in each Class winning car....and see where they fall then...
Still not happy..:mad:
Bill
Doh....you're right....my frustration got ahead of my brain...I was looking at last years ASP vs. this years. BSP ....sorry...But still...just because some decent drivers came out in BSP this year...all of a sudden its one of the "elite" classes...I mean....theres only 3 higher than BSP...SM, SM2, and ASP....I don't aggree with it..never have...never will...throw the SAME driver in each Class winning car....and see where they fall then...
Still not happy..:mad:
Bill
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 11:19 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16066676]
FWIW, average bump was +0.0057.[/QUOTE]
I think I fixed this.:cool:
FWIW, average bump was +0.0057.[/QUOTE]
I think I fixed this.:cool:
| AtomicRacer | 11-21-2006 11:26 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South;16066189]now that I merged them...
:furious: :furious: :furious: WTH is with this..I HATE PAX....How can a BSP car have a HIGHER friggen PAX than a ASP or SS car...and WHO the hell decided this was what it needed to be....:monkey: PAX...Yeah...so some scrub driver drives a Z06 in ASP and gets WAXED....and my PAX goes up...Screw them...
:furious: :mad:
Bill[/QUOTE]
ASP 0.858
BSP 0.853
SS 0.848
Might want to check those numbers again. BSP does NOT have a higher PAX than ASP.
-Paul
<bah> slow to post. =/
:furious: :furious: :furious: WTH is with this..I HATE PAX....How can a BSP car have a HIGHER friggen PAX than a ASP or SS car...and WHO the hell decided this was what it needed to be....:monkey: PAX...Yeah...so some scrub driver drives a Z06 in ASP and gets WAXED....and my PAX goes up...Screw them...
:furious: :mad:
Bill[/QUOTE]
ASP 0.858
BSP 0.853
SS 0.848
Might want to check those numbers again. BSP does NOT have a higher PAX than ASP.
-Paul
<bah> slow to post. =/
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:26 AM |
[quote=crystalhelix;16066892]I think I fixed this.[/quote]Justin, I figured the +0.0057 based on my own charts, not on yours or on Jeff Cashmore's. So if there IS a mistake in that number, it's my own. :)
[quote=Scooby South;16066867]theres only 3 higher than BSP...SM, SM2, and ASP....[/quote]
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???
[quote=Scooby South;16066867]theres only 3 higher than BSP...SM, SM2, and ASP....[/quote]
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???
| AtomicRacer | 11-21-2006 11:32 AM |
GS
2006 0.794
2007 0.803
bump 0.009
Alright Foley, no more easy PAX wins for you! =P
-Paul
2006 0.794
2007 0.803
bump 0.009
Alright Foley, no more easy PAX wins for you! =P
-Paul
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 11:32 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16066984]Justin, I figured the +0.0057 based on my own charts, not on yours or on Jeff Cashmore's. So if there IS a mistake in that number, it's my own. :)
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???
[COLOR="Red"]i noticed this - it's still a large increase for BSP[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
just number of decimal points .0057 instead of .057..
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???
[COLOR="Red"]i noticed this - it's still a large increase for BSP[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]
just number of decimal points .0057 instead of .057..
| motoring | 11-21-2006 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=Scooby South;16066867]just because some decent drivers came out in BSP this year...all of a sudden its one of the "elite" classes...I mean....theres only 3 higher than BSP...SM, SM2, and ASP....
Bill[/QUOTE]
You must be new to BSP. It has been one of the fastest classes forever. Now it is the 4th fastest class, in 2001 it was the second fastest class... (Ignoring P and M classes, all but one of which are faster)
Bill[/QUOTE]
You must be new to BSP. It has been one of the fastest classes forever. Now it is the 4th fastest class, in 2001 it was the second fastest class... (Ignoring P and M classes, all but one of which are faster)
| rankink | 11-21-2006 11:37 AM |
[QUOTE=speedyHAM;16066748]This really tells me that those A-Mod drivers need to step it up.
As if the SM pax wasn't bad enough already... at least HS got a good bump.[/QUOTE]
I thought the SM pax was a little soft before and needed a bump. A fully prepped SM car with a very good driver is very fast.
As if the SM pax wasn't bad enough already... at least HS got a good bump.[/QUOTE]
I thought the SM pax was a little soft before and needed a bump. A fully prepped SM car with a very good driver is very fast.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 11:38 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16066984]Justin, I figured the +0.0057 based on my own charts, not on yours or on Jeff Cashmore's. So if there IS a mistake in that number, it's my own. :)
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???[/QUOTE]
I realize all that(with the mod cars and the Prepared)...I am dead set against SS not being up there...especially since they seem to attract the faster drivers....ie:Ian Stewart...and USUALLY a Well preped SS car will blow the doors off a BSP car...look at nationals...and some of the tour results....My preference...
SM2
SM
ASP
SS
Then BSP
ESP
CSP
DSP
AS
BS
ETC...
Ummmm, Bill, which classes do you THINK should be faster than BSP?? Looks to me like all of Prepared except GP, all of Mod, SM, SM2, F125, and ASP all have harder PAXs than BSP. Which certainly seems right to me. So what is "lacking" in that list that you think should be harder than BSP???[/QUOTE]
I realize all that(with the mod cars and the Prepared)...I am dead set against SS not being up there...especially since they seem to attract the faster drivers....ie:Ian Stewart...and USUALLY a Well preped SS car will blow the doors off a BSP car...look at nationals...and some of the tour results....My preference...
SM2
SM
ASP
SS
Then BSP
ESP
CSP
DSP
AS
BS
ETC...
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:39 AM |
[quote=crystalhelix;16067062]just number of decimal points .0057 instead of .057..[/quote]D'oh! I just looked back at my original post and see what you mean!! Stupid typo. It's fixed now. Thanks! :)
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 11:44 AM |
[QUOTE=motoring;16067115]You must be new to BSP. It has been one of the fastest classes forever. Now it is the 4th fastest class, in 2001 it was the second fastest class... (Ignoring P and M classes, all but one of which are faster)[/QUOTE]
Agreed....however...SS NEEDS to move up the Chain...period....so why does it have the sofest PAX when it consistanly ran for FTD at most tour and the nationals.....not a novice in BSP .....just voicing displeasure about how "they" came up with this formula...
Bill
Agreed....however...SS NEEDS to move up the Chain...period....so why does it have the sofest PAX when it consistanly ran for FTD at most tour and the nationals.....not a novice in BSP .....just voicing displeasure about how "they" came up with this formula...
Bill
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:47 AM |
[quote=Scooby South;16067142]My preference...
SM2
SM
SS
ASP
Then BSP
ESP
CSP
DSP
AS
BS
ETC...[/quote]You're kidding me, right??? You think SS should be HARDER than ASP?? You do realize that ASP not only allows cars that are banned in stock because they are too fast for SS, but also allows a LOT more prep to SS cars.
As for "attracting the top drivers", the whole POINT of PAX/RTP is to take the drivers out of the equation. Or as you said yourself, a few posts ago, put the same top driver in the top prepped cars in each class. It seems to me a slam dunk that there's no way that ASP would be slower than SS. Heck, if it was, you would just take a stock-legal SS car and run it in ASP, right?? :p So even [B]if[/B] (huge if) no stock-banned cars were faster than SS and no SS cars got faster in ASP trim, the PAX factors would still at least be EQUAL.
SM2
SM
SS
ASP
Then BSP
ESP
CSP
DSP
AS
BS
ETC...[/quote]You're kidding me, right??? You think SS should be HARDER than ASP?? You do realize that ASP not only allows cars that are banned in stock because they are too fast for SS, but also allows a LOT more prep to SS cars.
As for "attracting the top drivers", the whole POINT of PAX/RTP is to take the drivers out of the equation. Or as you said yourself, a few posts ago, put the same top driver in the top prepped cars in each class. It seems to me a slam dunk that there's no way that ASP would be slower than SS. Heck, if it was, you would just take a stock-legal SS car and run it in ASP, right?? :p So even [B]if[/B] (huge if) no stock-banned cars were faster than SS and no SS cars got faster in ASP trim, the PAX factors would still at least be EQUAL.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 11:50 AM |
I just don't agree with it...
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 11:52 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16067294]You're kidding me, right??? You think SS should be HARDER than ASP?? You do realize that ASP not only allows cars that are banned in stock because they are too fast for SS, but also allows a LOT more prep to SS cars.
As for "attracting the top drivers", the whole POINT of PAX/RTP is to take the drivers out of the equation. Or as you said yourself, a few posts ago, put the same top driver in the top prepped cars in each class. It seems to me a slam dunk that there's no way that ASP would be slower than SS. Heck, if it was, you would just take a stock-legal SS car and run it in ASP, right?? :p So even [B]if[/B] (huge if) no stock-banned cars were faster than SS and no SS cars got faster in ASP trim, the PAX factors would still at least be EQUAL.[/QUOTE]
no I 'm not...
Paxed Results from the Ft. Myers, Florida National Tour -- February 18-19, 2006
Rank Driver Vehicle Class Act. Time Ind. Time
1 Ian Stewart 05 GT3[B] SS[/B] 93.217 78.30228
2 Mark Chiles 05 Mini s GS 99.951 79.36109
3 Chris Shenefield 89 civic si STS 100.598 80.17661
4 Matthew Jensen 05 Mini s GS 101.132 80.29881
5 Darrin Disimo 99 miata CS 99.060 80.53578
6 Andy Hollis 89 civic si STS 101.388 80.80624
7 Jesse Naughton 93 MR2 ES 100.377 80.90386
8 Jason Collett 01 S2K AS 97.769 81.24604
9 Per Schroeder 05 mini HS 104.200 81.27600
10 Jonathan Roberts 06 Z06 [B]ASP[/B] 95.548 81.40690
11 Thomas Austin 05 Mini s GS 102.675 81.52395
12 Brian Flanagan 97 328is DSP 98.412 81.58355
13 Jeff Jacobs 05 Mini s GS 102.824 81.64226
14 Doug Allen 89 civic si STS 102.447 81.65026
15 Robert Carpenter 01 Celica GS 102.877 81.68434
16 Samuel Kraus 98 talon DS 102.483 81.78143
17 Steve Kidd 04 GT3 SS 97.376 81.79584
18 Steve Hoelscher 86 MR2 DP 95.893 81.79673
19 Mike Southard 94 miata CS 100.644 81.82357
20 Tevin Richardson 03 Z06 SS 97.544 81.93696
21 Sacha Tauber 04 S2k AS 98.870 82.16097
22 Greg Hahn 04 S2k AS 98.977 82.24989
23 Robert Palmblad 95 Miata CSP 98.251 82.33434
24 Selin Rollan 05 Mari MK7 Formula JR 105.540 82.42674
25 Carl Wener 98 type-r DS 103.293 82.42781
26 Aaron Buckley 04 RX-8 BS 100.314 82.45811
27 Hector San Nicolas 04 Z06 [B]ASP[/B] 96.806 82.47871
As for "attracting the top drivers", the whole POINT of PAX/RTP is to take the drivers out of the equation. Or as you said yourself, a few posts ago, put the same top driver in the top prepped cars in each class. It seems to me a slam dunk that there's no way that ASP would be slower than SS. Heck, if it was, you would just take a stock-legal SS car and run it in ASP, right?? :p So even [B]if[/B] (huge if) no stock-banned cars were faster than SS and no SS cars got faster in ASP trim, the PAX factors would still at least be EQUAL.[/QUOTE]
no I 'm not...
Paxed Results from the Ft. Myers, Florida National Tour -- February 18-19, 2006
Rank Driver Vehicle Class Act. Time Ind. Time
1 Ian Stewart 05 GT3[B] SS[/B] 93.217 78.30228
2 Mark Chiles 05 Mini s GS 99.951 79.36109
3 Chris Shenefield 89 civic si STS 100.598 80.17661
4 Matthew Jensen 05 Mini s GS 101.132 80.29881
5 Darrin Disimo 99 miata CS 99.060 80.53578
6 Andy Hollis 89 civic si STS 101.388 80.80624
7 Jesse Naughton 93 MR2 ES 100.377 80.90386
8 Jason Collett 01 S2K AS 97.769 81.24604
9 Per Schroeder 05 mini HS 104.200 81.27600
10 Jonathan Roberts 06 Z06 [B]ASP[/B] 95.548 81.40690
11 Thomas Austin 05 Mini s GS 102.675 81.52395
12 Brian Flanagan 97 328is DSP 98.412 81.58355
13 Jeff Jacobs 05 Mini s GS 102.824 81.64226
14 Doug Allen 89 civic si STS 102.447 81.65026
15 Robert Carpenter 01 Celica GS 102.877 81.68434
16 Samuel Kraus 98 talon DS 102.483 81.78143
17 Steve Kidd 04 GT3 SS 97.376 81.79584
18 Steve Hoelscher 86 MR2 DP 95.893 81.79673
19 Mike Southard 94 miata CS 100.644 81.82357
20 Tevin Richardson 03 Z06 SS 97.544 81.93696
21 Sacha Tauber 04 S2k AS 98.870 82.16097
22 Greg Hahn 04 S2k AS 98.977 82.24989
23 Robert Palmblad 95 Miata CSP 98.251 82.33434
24 Selin Rollan 05 Mari MK7 Formula JR 105.540 82.42674
25 Carl Wener 98 type-r DS 103.293 82.42781
26 Aaron Buckley 04 RX-8 BS 100.314 82.45811
27 Hector San Nicolas 04 Z06 [B]ASP[/B] 96.806 82.47871
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:54 AM |
[quote=Scooby South;16067236]so why does it have the sofest PAX when it consistanly ran for FTD at most tour and the nationals....[/quote]Because no one Tour is going to necessarily have the top drivers in every class. Period. Maybe Class 1 has a top driver, Class 2 has 3 top drivers, and Classes 4, 5, 6, and 7 don't have ANY top drivers.
You're much more likely to get top drivers in more classes at a Pro, where those that compete HAVE to go to at least 2 (most go to 3). So you get more top talent.
As for the National Championships, comparing those numbers is just as hard. You have different classes competing on different days, different amounts of rubber laid down, different amounts of debris on the line, different weather conditions, etc.
In short, trying to come up with meaningful PAX factors is an ART, not a science. You can't just compare number A to number B and say "because number A is lower than number B, class A must be faster than class B."
[quote=Scooby South;16067236]just voicing displeasure about how "they" came up with this formula...[/quote]Remember "they" is one guy (Rick Ruth). He doesn't get paid to do this. My understanding is that he started it for his local region and it gradually got adopted by more and more regions until it became a de facto national standard. You don't like his numbers? Make up your own. :p
You're much more likely to get top drivers in more classes at a Pro, where those that compete HAVE to go to at least 2 (most go to 3). So you get more top talent.
As for the National Championships, comparing those numbers is just as hard. You have different classes competing on different days, different amounts of rubber laid down, different amounts of debris on the line, different weather conditions, etc.
In short, trying to come up with meaningful PAX factors is an ART, not a science. You can't just compare number A to number B and say "because number A is lower than number B, class A must be faster than class B."
[quote=Scooby South;16067236]just voicing displeasure about how "they" came up with this formula...[/quote]Remember "they" is one guy (Rick Ruth). He doesn't get paid to do this. My understanding is that he started it for his local region and it gradually got adopted by more and more regions until it became a de facto national standard. You don't like his numbers? Make up your own. :p
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 11:57 AM |
[quote=Scooby South;16067361]no I 'm not...
<snipped results from ONE event>[/quote]OK, I'm done trying to make my point. If you honestly think that Ian Stewart would be SLOWER in Peter's GT3 if it were fully prepped to ASP levels (and dialed in, etc), then I just can't begin to carry on a conversation.
<snipped results from ONE event>[/quote]OK, I'm done trying to make my point. If you honestly think that Ian Stewart would be SLOWER in Peter's GT3 if it were fully prepped to ASP levels (and dialed in, etc), then I just can't begin to carry on a conversation.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:00 PM |
2006 SCCA NATS.
Super Stock Drivers: 61 Trophies: 16
T 1 199 Matthew Braun 2005 Lotus Elise Hoosier Detroit 53.725(1) 51.239 50.776 [B]99.358[/B]
[99] Northville, MI PowerPlug CN 49.489 49.629 48.582
T 2 193 Ian Stewart 2005 Porsche 911 GT3 Hoosier Central Florida 54.250(1) 51.256 51.178 [B]99.676[/B]
[93] Orlando, FL [url]www.maitlandimports.com[/url] SE 48.498 50.350(1) 49.007 (0.318)
T 3 177 Alek Tziortzis 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Hoosier Chicago 51.642 52.046 51.030 [B]99.816[/B]
[77] Palatine, IL My Little Girls CN 51.219(1) 49.131 48.786 (0.140)
ASP:
A Street Prepared Drivers: 19 Trophies: 6
T 1 91 Michael Johnson 2002 Chevy Z06 Hoosier New York 49.561 50.985(1) 49.769 [B]99.825[/B]
Glen Allen, VA Drop the Hammer Contracting NE 50.634 50.264 50.556
T 2 98 Christopher A Cox 2002 Porsche GT2 Hoosier San Francisco 50.021 49.411 49.284 [B]100.579[/B]
[198] Morgan Hill, CA Midland Cabinets/Ankeny Racing Enterprises NP 51.295 51.408 51.340 (0.754)
T 3 94 James Gunn-Wilkinson 2004 Porsche GT3 Kumho San Diego DNF 51.294(1) 50.327 [B]101.053[/B]
La Jolla, CA Kumho SP 51.082 50.726 53.216(1) (0.474)
Super Stock Drivers: 61 Trophies: 16
T 1 199 Matthew Braun 2005 Lotus Elise Hoosier Detroit 53.725(1) 51.239 50.776 [B]99.358[/B]
[99] Northville, MI PowerPlug CN 49.489 49.629 48.582
T 2 193 Ian Stewart 2005 Porsche 911 GT3 Hoosier Central Florida 54.250(1) 51.256 51.178 [B]99.676[/B]
[93] Orlando, FL [url]www.maitlandimports.com[/url] SE 48.498 50.350(1) 49.007 (0.318)
T 3 177 Alek Tziortzis 2002 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Hoosier Chicago 51.642 52.046 51.030 [B]99.816[/B]
[77] Palatine, IL My Little Girls CN 51.219(1) 49.131 48.786 (0.140)
ASP:
A Street Prepared Drivers: 19 Trophies: 6
T 1 91 Michael Johnson 2002 Chevy Z06 Hoosier New York 49.561 50.985(1) 49.769 [B]99.825[/B]
Glen Allen, VA Drop the Hammer Contracting NE 50.634 50.264 50.556
T 2 98 Christopher A Cox 2002 Porsche GT2 Hoosier San Francisco 50.021 49.411 49.284 [B]100.579[/B]
[198] Morgan Hill, CA Midland Cabinets/Ankeny Racing Enterprises NP 51.295 51.408 51.340 (0.754)
T 3 94 James Gunn-Wilkinson 2004 Porsche GT3 Kumho San Diego DNF 51.294(1) 50.327 [B]101.053[/B]
La Jolla, CA Kumho SP 51.082 50.726 53.216(1) (0.474)
| jcroy66 | 11-21-2006 12:02 PM |
[quote=jcroy66;16067418]If you honestly think that Ian Stewart would be SLOWER in Peter's GT3 if it were fully prepped to ASP levels (and dialed in, etc), then I just can't begin to carry on a conversation.[/quote]12345
Or substitute Matt Braun and the Elise in there if you'd like.
Or substitute Matt Braun and the Elise in there if you'd like.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:02 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66;16067418]OK, I'm done trying to make my point. If you honestly think that Ian Stewart would be SLOWER in Peter's GT3 if it were fully prepped to ASP levels (and dialed in, etc), then I just can't begin to carry on a conversation.[/QUOTE]
Look at the results....
SS consisitantly fights for FTD.......I agree with what your sayin...it just doesn't show that on paper.......:)
Bill
Look at the results....
SS consisitantly fights for FTD.......I agree with what your sayin...it just doesn't show that on paper.......:)
Bill
| KC | 11-21-2006 12:03 PM |
[QUOTE=solo-x;16066792]horry krap!!! so much for beating grant, mike, and chris on index![/QUOTE]
Well, we'll just have to drive better. In relation to STS, SS is about the same, SM got harder, and DSP... easier. :confused: DSP PAX is what I would expect it to be if the move actually went through with the BMWs, but getting easier vs other classes?
Well, we'll just have to drive better. In relation to STS, SS is about the same, SM got harder, and DSP... easier. :confused: DSP PAX is what I would expect it to be if the move actually went through with the BMWs, but getting easier vs other classes?
| motoring | 11-21-2006 12:05 PM |
I think the surface at HPT got a little faster between Wednesday and Friday... If they ran the same run group on opposite courses the analysis would be a little more valid.
| sciolist | 11-21-2006 12:15 PM |
Good Lord, it just gets worse and worse. This year I'm taking an STU map up to Packwood and we'll just see.
| sciolist | 11-21-2006 12:16 PM |
... and a GS car too, lol.
| Warp3 | 11-21-2006 12:19 PM |
So everyone got faster except four classes, huh? :lol:
I guess speedyHAM is right...AM needs to step it up some. ;)
At least D-Stock didn't go up all that much. :D
Shane
(who is running D-Stock for the 2007 season)
I guess speedyHAM is right...AM needs to step it up some. ;)
At least D-Stock didn't go up all that much. :D
Shane
(who is running D-Stock for the 2007 season)
| trhoppe | 11-21-2006 12:27 PM |
Dear Bill,
If SS is beating ASP or BSP, then its the drivers/situation's fault. You *cannot* compare different day/different event results to each other, that just doesn't work.
Sincerely
-Hoppe
If SS is beating ASP or BSP, then its the drivers/situation's fault. You *cannot* compare different day/different event results to each other, that just doesn't work.
Sincerely
-Hoppe
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:27 PM |
my point to all this...is that "THEY"...take all the times in events...to come up with their index....So why is SS still soft when it consistantly up at the top...thats my only beef...it not about who's driving them...its how they are perfoming...
Sorry for the heated discussion...
Bill
Sorry for the heated discussion...
Bill
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:31 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;16067806]Dear Bill,
If SS is beating ASP or BSP, then its the drivers/situation's fault. You *cannot* compare different day/different event results to each other, that just doesn't work.
Sincerely
-Hoppe[/QUOTE]
SAME EVENT...SAME Conditions....SAme Track...BS....I *CAN* and I Will...:p
SS needs more PAX time...thats all I am saying ...
PS...thanks Tom for your input to all this even tho you don't drive a Subaru anymore...so what do you care anyways...:)...Luv ya..
Bill
If SS is beating ASP or BSP, then its the drivers/situation's fault. You *cannot* compare different day/different event results to each other, that just doesn't work.
Sincerely
-Hoppe[/QUOTE]
SAME EVENT...SAME Conditions....SAme Track...BS....I *CAN* and I Will...:p
SS needs more PAX time...thats all I am saying ...
PS...thanks Tom for your input to all this even tho you don't drive a Subaru anymore...so what do you care anyways...:)...Luv ya..
Bill
| trhoppe | 11-21-2006 12:32 PM |
I'm not really understanding this "soft" that you speak of.
They got a higher bump then every class that matters other then SM and BSP. There isn't a single BSP car out there that is 100% done ;)
They are a LOT of SS cars that are 100% done.
-Tom
They got a higher bump then every class that matters other then SM and BSP. There isn't a single BSP car out there that is 100% done ;)
They are a LOT of SS cars that are 100% done.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 11-21-2006 12:33 PM |
Same event? What event? What conditions. If you are comparing different days at nationals you are on the cracko. It wasn't even funny how different the surface was between days. Hell, its way faster heat after heat :lol:
-Tom
-Tom
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:34 PM |
ok.,..I am recuseing myself ...:)
Bill
Bill
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 12:35 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;16067894]Same event? What event? What conditions. If you are comparing different days at nationals you are on the cracko. It wasn't even funny how different the surface was between days. Hell, its way faster heat after heat :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
ummmmm..cuse me....look at Ft meyers, in my Earlier post....;)...AND while your looking...look at Walnut Ridge..
Bill
-Tom[/QUOTE]
ummmmm..cuse me....look at Ft meyers, in my Earlier post....;)...AND while your looking...look at Walnut Ridge..
Bill
| Chiketkd | 11-21-2006 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=Warp3;16067731]At least D-Stock didn't go up all that much. :D
Shane
(who is running D-Stock for the 2007 season)[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The DS PAX didn't change drastically and now it's just .001 higher than GS. As Nationals will be on asphalt well into the foreseeable future, I see the ITRs ruling DS for some time to come (I still see the '06+ WRX as having a solid shot in the class due to our ability to run 245/40/17 rubber on our stock wheels).
Shane
(who is running D-Stock for the 2007 season)[/QUOTE]
Agreed. The DS PAX didn't change drastically and now it's just .001 higher than GS. As Nationals will be on asphalt well into the foreseeable future, I see the ITRs ruling DS for some time to come (I still see the '06+ WRX as having a solid shot in the class due to our ability to run 245/40/17 rubber on our stock wheels).
| Pacobeagle | 11-21-2006 01:01 PM |
SM gets the shaft, that's it, I'm changing classes!!!! BSP maybe or even AS
| speedyHAM | 11-21-2006 01:07 PM |
[QUOTE=rankink;16067128]I thought the SM pax was a little soft before and needed a bump. [B]A fully prepped SM car with a very good driver is very fast.[/B] [/QUOTE]
Yeah- but I'm not a very good driver. :(
Yeah- but I'm not a very good driver. :(
| sciolist | 11-21-2006 01:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Pacobeagle1;16068312]SM gets the shaft, that's it, I'm changing classes!!!! BSP maybe or even AS[/QUOTE]
Lol, that's a first. Someone coming to BSP for the PAX.
Lol, that's a first. Someone coming to BSP for the PAX.
| PKer | 11-21-2006 01:22 PM |
Man STU has it easy!
| crystalhelix | 11-21-2006 02:05 PM |
[QUOTE=sciolist;16068591]Lol, that's a first. Someone coming to BSP for the PAX.[/QUOTE]
:lol: :lol:
[QUOTE=PKer;16068601]Man STU has it easy![/QUOTE]
I think they had the smallest change not in a mod class IIRC.
:lol: :lol:
[QUOTE=PKer;16068601]Man STU has it easy![/QUOTE]
I think they had the smallest change not in a mod class IIRC.
| Pacobeagle | 11-21-2006 02:08 PM |
Time for me to go to Karts, hell, I'll have to add weight to make minimum!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA
| sciolist | 11-21-2006 02:34 PM |
[QUOTE=crystalhelix;16069288]I think they had the smallest change not in a mod class IIRC.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, 1/10 of ours. What a load. Makes the little squares of plywood look reasonable.
Yeah, 1/10 of ours. What a load. Makes the little squares of plywood look reasonable.
| Mhyrr | 11-21-2006 02:44 PM |
Wow, I'm continually amazed at how much people whine about PAX, and cite specific events to prove their points, disregarding variables of driver talent, driver performance, or even something as silly as one driver being on sticker tires and someone else running Hoosiers with 50 runs on them.
As far the drastic increases...who can seriously complain about that? It strikes me that few people understand that the only PAX that never changes is AM, and therefore all other PAX scores are adjusted from them, so an across the board increase like this (and last year) is simply a measure that AM is slowing down compared to everyone else. Oy.
Compare the differences in increase all you want.
As far the drastic increases...who can seriously complain about that? It strikes me that few people understand that the only PAX that never changes is AM, and therefore all other PAX scores are adjusted from them, so an across the board increase like this (and last year) is simply a measure that AM is slowing down compared to everyone else. Oy.
Compare the differences in increase all you want.
| Scooby South | 11-21-2006 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE=Mhyrr;16069869][B]Wow, I'm continually amazed at how much people whine about PAX, and cite specific events to prove their points[/B], [I]disregarding variables of driver talent, driver performance, or even something as silly as one driver being on sticker tires and someone else running Hoosiers with 50 runs on them. [/I]
As far the drastic increases...who can seriously complain about that? It strikes me that few people understand that the only PAX that never changes is AM, and therefore all other PAX scores are adjusted from them, so an across the board increase like this (and last year) is simply a measure that AM is slowing down compared to everyone else. Oy.
Compare the differences in increase all you want.[/QUOTE]
So what are you trying to say...:lol: :lol:
As far the drastic increases...who can seriously complain about that? It strikes me that few people understand that the only PAX that never changes is AM, and therefore all other PAX scores are adjusted from them, so an across the board increase like this (and last year) is simply a measure that AM is slowing down compared to everyone else. Oy.
Compare the differences in increase all you want.[/QUOTE]
So what are you trying to say...:lol: :lol:
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