| randy zimmer | 12-07-2004 02:44 PM |
I move my hands before the turn to where they'll be 3 & 9 mid-turn.
But I don't want my knees and fingers even close to each other either.
Kinda a hybrid technique I guess.
One hand steers and the other is a shock damper.
rz
But I don't want my knees and fingers even close to each other either.
Kinda a hybrid technique I guess.
One hand steers and the other is a shock damper.
rz
| arubus | 12-07-2004 08:43 PM |
Gary -- very nice vids. Your double-clutch-heel-toe-rev-match-down-shifts were awe inspiring. Very impressive.
I try to keep my hands at 9-3, its much easier to do on the track. I find myself setting up my hands more during auto-x. And obviously I shuffle-steer like a mad man when I am overcorrecting a slide. :)
Godspeed.
--Wayne
I try to keep my hands at 9-3, its much easier to do on the track. I find myself setting up my hands more during auto-x. And obviously I shuffle-steer like a mad man when I am overcorrecting a slide. :)
Godspeed.
--Wayne
| Don_Hooligan | 12-07-2004 09:20 PM |
Zaccone fixed-hand method,Autocross and Rallycross.
It just feels a lot more controlled than shuffling,to me.
It just feels a lot more controlled than shuffling,to me.
| GravelRash | 12-08-2004 05:45 AM |
A [I]most[/I] interesting thread! I first learned about shuffle steering - though not by that name - from an article in Popular Mechanics quite some time ago describing how British police trained for "pursuit" driving. For the article they were driving a '63 Ford Galaxie w/ the 390/300 (probably a 3 spd auto), which iirc had ~3.5 turns lock>lock, through the English countryside. Very good description of shuffle steering, (and some other techniques and practices which are still completely valid). I think that predates JF a bit... :alien:
So I tried to integrate shuffle steering into my driving habits...but encountered the same limitations noted by others above: push/lift is less precise than pull/down, especially when loaded up near an apex, and using only one hand during wheel rotation doesn't give enough feedback/feel - especially with the difference in force application between the 2 hands.
The other limitation that I see as inherent in "pure" shuffle steering is that it's nearly impossible to keep the wheel rotating smoothly: there's a "dead spot" when you transition from one hand to the other. That momentary interruption doesn't last long, but it really interrupts the smoothness of steering input for me.
In more recent times I've read/heard that the "proper" technique is to never release your grip on the wheel unless you absolutely have to turn the wheel farther, i.e. go to complete elbow cross rather than change grip. And I've certainly seen that in a lot of footage of F1 and CART racing...but that's not exactly comparable to the cars we're driving :p
I've tried this some and just don't feel comfortable with the feel/control much past the point of hands at top/bottom of the wheel. Plus I'm not comfortable with the commitment at the elbow cross point: if I haven't judged the wheel rotation correctly it's a [I]really[/I] awkward time to get another grip and more turn-in!
I've ended up with the same/similar technique to that described by several others: shuffle if necessary to set up the hands so that they will be positioned for best control and correction when the wheel is fully turned into the corner. For me the most comfort/feel position is ~9 and 3...but I only like to use that up to a certain driving percentage.
Above ~7/10s I try to run more like 10 and 4 (right turn) because it gives me a lot more possible rotation to counter oversteer if necessary. And steering a lot more into understeer isn't usually very productive anyway :eek: , so giving up some movement on that side seems an excellent tradeoff.
Unwinding out of the corner may go back to some shuffle - same as getting the hands set up for the turn-in.
That all said, I'm not sure a video of my steering inputs on the tighter parts of a RallyX course would be a really good illustration of my avowed technique :lol: In fact I'm not sure I could actually recall my "technique" in some of those instances... :D
[DreamMode]
Ahhh...RevLab...ahhh...
[DreamMode/]
So I tried to integrate shuffle steering into my driving habits...but encountered the same limitations noted by others above: push/lift is less precise than pull/down, especially when loaded up near an apex, and using only one hand during wheel rotation doesn't give enough feedback/feel - especially with the difference in force application between the 2 hands.
The other limitation that I see as inherent in "pure" shuffle steering is that it's nearly impossible to keep the wheel rotating smoothly: there's a "dead spot" when you transition from one hand to the other. That momentary interruption doesn't last long, but it really interrupts the smoothness of steering input for me.
In more recent times I've read/heard that the "proper" technique is to never release your grip on the wheel unless you absolutely have to turn the wheel farther, i.e. go to complete elbow cross rather than change grip. And I've certainly seen that in a lot of footage of F1 and CART racing...but that's not exactly comparable to the cars we're driving :p
I've tried this some and just don't feel comfortable with the feel/control much past the point of hands at top/bottom of the wheel. Plus I'm not comfortable with the commitment at the elbow cross point: if I haven't judged the wheel rotation correctly it's a [I]really[/I] awkward time to get another grip and more turn-in!
I've ended up with the same/similar technique to that described by several others: shuffle if necessary to set up the hands so that they will be positioned for best control and correction when the wheel is fully turned into the corner. For me the most comfort/feel position is ~9 and 3...but I only like to use that up to a certain driving percentage.
Above ~7/10s I try to run more like 10 and 4 (right turn) because it gives me a lot more possible rotation to counter oversteer if necessary. And steering a lot more into understeer isn't usually very productive anyway :eek: , so giving up some movement on that side seems an excellent tradeoff.
Unwinding out of the corner may go back to some shuffle - same as getting the hands set up for the turn-in.
That all said, I'm not sure a video of my steering inputs on the tighter parts of a RallyX course would be a really good illustration of my avowed technique :lol: In fact I'm not sure I could actually recall my "technique" in some of those instances... :D
[DreamMode]
Ahhh...RevLab...ahhh...
[DreamMode/]
| patr | 12-08-2004 12:33 PM |
couple things
1) I rally, I dont shuffle steer, because you need to know where the wheels are pointing at all times. There is some element of shuffle steer applicapple when you totally know what is coming up, but shuffling just doesn't work for me at speeds when its narrow.
2) the rev-lab rack has been ABUSED HARD in the Canadian, SCCA ProRally, European, and Internaitional rally championships. Not just by Subaru Canada but by many other teams. I`ve ripped off wheels, torn off corners, rolled and bent stuts, and I haven`t changed the rack yet.
-Pat
1) I rally, I dont shuffle steer, because you need to know where the wheels are pointing at all times. There is some element of shuffle steer applicapple when you totally know what is coming up, but shuffling just doesn't work for me at speeds when its narrow.
2) the rev-lab rack has been ABUSED HARD in the Canadian, SCCA ProRally, European, and Internaitional rally championships. Not just by Subaru Canada but by many other teams. I`ve ripped off wheels, torn off corners, rolled and bent stuts, and I haven`t changed the rack yet.
-Pat
| AndyRoo | 12-08-2004 03:53 PM |
[QUOTE=patr]couple things
1) I rally, I dont shuffle steer, because you need to know where the wheels are pointing at all times. There is some element of shuffle steer applicapple when you totally know what is coming up, but shuffling just doesn't work for me at speeds when its narrow.
2) the rev-lab rack has been ABUSED HARD in the Canadian, SCCA ProRally, European, and Internaitional rally championships. Not just by Subaru Canada but by many other teams. I`ve ripped off wheels, torn off corners, rolled and bent stuts, and I haven`t changed the rack yet.
-Pat[/QUOTE]
Thanks Pat...I was about to ask what some of the rally people do. Any other rally folks have any input?
1) I rally, I dont shuffle steer, because you need to know where the wheels are pointing at all times. There is some element of shuffle steer applicapple when you totally know what is coming up, but shuffling just doesn't work for me at speeds when its narrow.
2) the rev-lab rack has been ABUSED HARD in the Canadian, SCCA ProRally, European, and Internaitional rally championships. Not just by Subaru Canada but by many other teams. I`ve ripped off wheels, torn off corners, rolled and bent stuts, and I haven`t changed the rack yet.
-Pat[/QUOTE]
Thanks Pat...I was about to ask what some of the rally people do. Any other rally folks have any input?
| Rapid_Roo | 12-08-2004 06:12 PM |
I shuffle steer, but only because my right wrist is fused and its hard to rotate that far. :(
| Lafora | 12-09-2004 01:10 AM |
I don't shuffle.
But then again, if i have to shuffle, chances are my steering's broken :D
But then again, if i have to shuffle, chances are my steering's broken :D
| turboICE | 12-19-2004 08:30 PM |
I don't recall any driver in the ROC coverage shuffle steering at all.
| syntrix | 12-19-2004 11:32 PM |
Well, you certainly don't want to get crossed up!
| slickvic | 12-20-2004 01:20 AM |
wrx+long lengs = shuffle steering for me.
| hillman | 12-20-2004 08:58 PM |
I don't understand the folks who are saying they only do it one or another. It depends totally on the circumstances and if you can't do one style, and/or don't practice it, you're going to run into problems somewhere. Unless you always drive the same car on the same surface all the time, and never make mistakes.
Personally, sometimes I'm a devout hand-over-hand guy, because in an emergency that requires large steering inputs ( aka ice racing, which is a constant emergency ) you just can't shuffle the wheel far enough fast enough.
[url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/mira022904/a2b2race4.wmv]Ice racing style[/url] ( 15 MB ). In particular, check out avoiding the bouncing, rolling tire just after the 4 minute mark. No way I make that move shuffling.
OTOH, on a consistent, but tight, track like [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/cwscc102404/shawano.wmv]Shawano's brand-new kart track, I do it differently[/url] ( 3.5 M ). A little cross between shuffling and pre-setting my hands before turn-in, more of the latter.
On a [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/mive041004/session3.wmv]real road course like Gingerman[/url] ( 6 M ), though, my hands barely come off the wheel at all, even with a slow 20:1 rack.
But the point is, you can have a [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/cr092103/20030921run2.wmv]moment like this[/url] ( 2M ) even autocrossing in the dry, and if you get it that far sideways, I don't think it can be caught shuffling. If it can, my hands aren't fast enough to do it anyway, so I need to be able to accurately hand-over, too.
Why would you not give yourself options?
Personally, sometimes I'm a devout hand-over-hand guy, because in an emergency that requires large steering inputs ( aka ice racing, which is a constant emergency ) you just can't shuffle the wheel far enough fast enough.
[url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/mira022904/a2b2race4.wmv]Ice racing style[/url] ( 15 MB ). In particular, check out avoiding the bouncing, rolling tire just after the 4 minute mark. No way I make that move shuffling.
OTOH, on a consistent, but tight, track like [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/cwscc102404/shawano.wmv]Shawano's brand-new kart track, I do it differently[/url] ( 3.5 M ). A little cross between shuffling and pre-setting my hands before turn-in, more of the latter.
On a [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/mive041004/session3.wmv]real road course like Gingerman[/url] ( 6 M ), though, my hands barely come off the wheel at all, even with a slow 20:1 rack.
But the point is, you can have a [url=http://planet-torque.com/ms/cr092103/20030921run2.wmv]moment like this[/url] ( 2M ) even autocrossing in the dry, and if you get it that far sideways, I don't think it can be caught shuffling. If it can, my hands aren't fast enough to do it anyway, so I need to be able to accurately hand-over, too.
Why would you not give yourself options?
| GarySheehan | 12-20-2004 10:08 PM |
Hillman,
You're talking mostly about recovery modes. I believe the original intent of the thread was whether you shuffle steer or not during controlled steering. Many drivers shuffle steer with only medium corners.
I don't take hands off the wheel unless all hell has broken loose.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
You're talking mostly about recovery modes. I believe the original intent of the thread was whether you shuffle steer or not during controlled steering. Many drivers shuffle steer with only medium corners.
I don't take hands off the wheel unless all hell has broken loose.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| kwak | 12-20-2004 10:40 PM |
Hillman, good demonstration videos.
The Shawano track shows that the steering wheel has to go past 360 just to make a turn on pavement. Sorry Gary, has nothing to do with recovery mode. A good example of ya gotta do what is appropriate for your racetrack and for the steering rack you have in the car.
Keep you hands on the wheel at all times if possible. But if your hands go upside down and your arms touch and you still need to turn more, ya gotta do somethin'!
The Shawano track shows that the steering wheel has to go past 360 just to make a turn on pavement. Sorry Gary, has nothing to do with recovery mode. A good example of ya gotta do what is appropriate for your racetrack and for the steering rack you have in the car.
Keep you hands on the wheel at all times if possible. But if your hands go upside down and your arms touch and you still need to turn more, ya gotta do somethin'!
| hillman | 12-20-2004 10:48 PM |
[quote]
You're talking mostly about recovery modes.
[/quote]
Well, yes and no. Since all racing is done in slippery conditions at the limit of traction, you're always an instant from "recovery mode". So, I don't see much difference between normal and recovery mode, but maybe that's my ice-racing background talking. I don't think one stands much chance of making an emergency recovery of any precision with a style they've never practiced.
Even disregarding recovery mode, though, I still see a variety of a situations where different styles are best-suited. Shuffle steering is inefficient when you only need ~180 degrees of travel. Other times, you simply have to move your hands on the wheel. Depends on the vehicle, the course, the surface and more.
IOW, I don't see how any one style can suffice, recovery or otherwise. YMMV.
-David
You're talking mostly about recovery modes.
[/quote]
Well, yes and no. Since all racing is done in slippery conditions at the limit of traction, you're always an instant from "recovery mode". So, I don't see much difference between normal and recovery mode, but maybe that's my ice-racing background talking. I don't think one stands much chance of making an emergency recovery of any precision with a style they've never practiced.
Even disregarding recovery mode, though, I still see a variety of a situations where different styles are best-suited. Shuffle steering is inefficient when you only need ~180 degrees of travel. Other times, you simply have to move your hands on the wheel. Depends on the vehicle, the course, the surface and more.
IOW, I don't see how any one style can suffice, recovery or otherwise. YMMV.
-David
| GarySheehan | 12-20-2004 11:52 PM |
[QUOTE=hillman]IOW, I don't see how any one style can suffice, recovery or otherwise. YMMV.[/QUOTE]
None of the racing I do requires shuffle steering. My hands are alway at 3 and 9 unless all hell breaks loose, which is definitely not my normal mode of driving. Can you see how my one style suffices?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
None of the racing I do requires shuffle steering. My hands are alway at 3 and 9 unless all hell breaks loose, which is definitely not my normal mode of driving. Can you see how my one style suffices?
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| hillman | 12-21-2004 10:16 AM |
Gary, you differentiate between "normal" and "recovery" modes, whereas I do not. "All hell breaking loose" is still normal mode, to me. Clearly we agree to disagree there, so we reach different conclusions.
| GarySheehan | 12-21-2004 11:08 AM |
Hillman,
I can see why you would not differentiate between the two with iceracing. You guys drive sideways down the straights!
But in roadracing if you are tail out by more than say 10 degrees, you're going slow. It's my opinion that if you are dialing in opposite lock on a roadcourse, you've made a driving error.
I'm not arguing with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you choose to drive. I was just addressing the point where you said you can't see how anyone can use just one style. There are quite a few, I'd say the majority, that do just that.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I can see why you would not differentiate between the two with iceracing. You guys drive sideways down the straights!
But in roadracing if you are tail out by more than say 10 degrees, you're going slow. It's my opinion that if you are dialing in opposite lock on a roadcourse, you've made a driving error.
I'm not arguing with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way you choose to drive. I was just addressing the point where you said you can't see how anyone can use just one style. There are quite a few, I'd say the majority, that do just that.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| hillman | 12-21-2004 12:23 PM |
[quote]
It's my opinion that if you are
dialing in opposite lock on a roadcourse, you've made a driving error.
[/quote]
I agree with that ( except where you're avoiding someone
else who made a mistake ).
[quote]
I was just addressing the
point where you said you can't see how anyone can use just one style. There are quite a few, I'd say the majority, that do
just that.
[/quote]
Because in my world, everyone makes mistakes, and often needs to change style
as a result. Only different in semantics, really. I understand better, now,
why people say they only do it one way.
It's my opinion that if you are
dialing in opposite lock on a roadcourse, you've made a driving error.
[/quote]
I agree with that ( except where you're avoiding someone
else who made a mistake ).
[quote]
I was just addressing the
point where you said you can't see how anyone can use just one style. There are quite a few, I'd say the majority, that do
just that.
[/quote]
Because in my world, everyone makes mistakes, and often needs to change style
as a result. Only different in semantics, really. I understand better, now,
why people say they only do it one way.
| bemani | 12-21-2004 01:56 PM |
[QUOTE=Jack ffr1846]I taught to "pre-position" your hands before a corner. This way, you're coming into a corner ready to pull the wheel so you come through with your hands near 3 and 9. So, in other words, for a left hander, you put your left hand at 12, right at 6 and pull the wheel into the 3 and 9 position. I try to stay just ahead of the corners that I'm entering and don't cross my hands over the center of the wheel ever.
jack[/QUOTE]
I used to shuffle steer, but I've gradually switched to this method. I think it works much better for me.
jack[/QUOTE]
I used to shuffle steer, but I've gradually switched to this method. I think it works much better for me.
| mav1c | 12-21-2004 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE]I taught to "pre-position" your hands before a corner. This way, you're coming into a corner ready to pull the wheel so you come through with your hands near 3 and 9. So, in other words, for a left hander, you put your left hand at 12, right at 6 and pull the wheel into the 3 and 9 position. I try to stay just ahead of the corners that I'm entering and don't cross my hands over the center of the wheel ever.[/QUOTE]
Isn't that basically shuffle steering? Well...sort of a pre-shuffle shuffle steer. :)
Isn't that basically shuffle steering? Well...sort of a pre-shuffle shuffle steer. :)
| bemani | 12-21-2004 03:48 PM |
[QUOTE=mav1c]Isn't that basically shuffle steering? Well...sort of a pre-shuffle shuffle steer. :)[/QUOTE]
Maybe ... but the point is, you move your hands before the corner so you don't have to do it in the middle of one.
Maybe ... but the point is, you move your hands before the corner so you don't have to do it in the middle of one.
| javid | 12-21-2004 06:33 PM |
I will use small shuffles in many corners. The closer to ~9 and 3 my hands are the more comfortable I feel. It also seems like I have a much easier time of getting feed back when my hands are more even. For any quick transitional segments I tend not to.
Only cone dodged once and there was way to much going on for me to shuffle. :lol:
Only cone dodged once and there was way to much going on for me to shuffle. :lol:
| lo-buck | 12-21-2004 06:45 PM |
i do both. my civic(s) have rather slow racks. so at the track i have to shuffle for some turns (oak tree at vir, big bend at lrp, t7 at watkins glen and a few others). at autocrosses, i shuffle most everything but sloloms.
-spenc
-spenc
| turboICE | 12-21-2004 07:14 PM |
[QUOTE=lo-buck]my civic(s) have slow.[/QUOTE]But what does that have to do with your steering?
| Calamity Jesus | 12-22-2004 04:10 PM |
Depends entirely on what car I'm driving, the steering ratio and the effort required. I find myself doing a quasi-shuffle steer in my RS.. I do a palm spin on my escort, especially when autocrossing (horrible technique, I know), and I do hand-over-hand exclusively on my old BMW (non-assisted rack) simply due to the effort and speed required.
I had no clue I was palm-spinning the escort until I watched some in-car video. The only good thing about the palm-spin is that the turn-in motion is very smooth. I made some great turns with that technique.
I had no clue I was palm-spinning the escort until I watched some in-car video. The only good thing about the palm-spin is that the turn-in motion is very smooth. I made some great turns with that technique.
| solo-x | 12-22-2004 04:35 PM |
pre-positioning is another steering method.
i don't really think about what i'm doing with my hands. i let them figure it out on their own. i do have a picture from the toledo pro where you can see my arms crossed and the palm of my right hand is visible at 10 o'clock on the wheel. (right hand turn) i probably shuffle steer and pre-position a bit too in tighter radius turns since the rack in my car is rather slow.
nate
i don't really think about what i'm doing with my hands. i let them figure it out on their own. i do have a picture from the toledo pro where you can see my arms crossed and the palm of my right hand is visible at 10 o'clock on the wheel. (right hand turn) i probably shuffle steer and pre-position a bit too in tighter radius turns since the rack in my car is rather slow.
nate
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