| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 10:12 AM |
Element STI vs. Grand-Am Porsche Video
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I was at VIR raceway this weekend testing for the GT Live event and was lucky enough to have one of BGB Motorsports Grand-Am Porsches there also testing for the Grand-Am race at VIR. This is on the South Course and as you will see we are pretty evenly matched in the power to weight ratio.
Modifications that I will tell you about ;)
Element Tuning JIC FLT-RS Coilovers
Prodrive GC06 and GC05 Wheels 17x9.5 and 18x9.5
6-Gun Ball Joint Extenders
RCE Brake Ducts
Element Hydra EMS
Element Hydramist
Element GT52 Turbocharger
Turbo-back Exhaust
TurboSmart E-Boost 2
TurboSmart Dual Port BOV
Element SS Brake Lines
Hawk DT70 and 60 brake pads
The car is currently un-tuned and running the off the shelf 93 octane base map. The car was seriously overheating but the Hydra EMS is setup to reduce power under those conditions so I estimate power to be about 340 whp. We are still running the stock engine, clutch, airbox, uppipe, header, and TMIC.
[URL="http://www.elementtuning.com/Videos/Element STI vs Grand Am Porsche web.wmv"]http://www.elementtuning.com/Videos/Element STI vs Grand Am Porsche web.wmv[/URL]
Enjoy!
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Modifications that I will tell you about ;)
Element Tuning JIC FLT-RS Coilovers
Prodrive GC06 and GC05 Wheels 17x9.5 and 18x9.5
6-Gun Ball Joint Extenders
RCE Brake Ducts
Element Hydra EMS
Element Hydramist
Element GT52 Turbocharger
Turbo-back Exhaust
TurboSmart E-Boost 2
TurboSmart Dual Port BOV
Element SS Brake Lines
Hawk DT70 and 60 brake pads
The car is currently un-tuned and running the off the shelf 93 octane base map. The car was seriously overheating but the Hydra EMS is setup to reduce power under those conditions so I estimate power to be about 340 whp. We are still running the stock engine, clutch, airbox, uppipe, header, and TMIC.
[URL="http://www.elementtuning.com/Videos/Element STI vs Grand Am Porsche web.wmv"]http://www.elementtuning.com/Videos/Element STI vs Grand Am Porsche web.wmv[/URL]
Enjoy!
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| mav1c | 09-26-2006 10:34 AM |
Nice! What will you be running at GT Live?
Man...I was set on leaving the turbo alone and not doing any crazy power mods. But everytime I see your vids I get "the urge" to add power. :lol:
Man...I was set on leaving the turbo alone and not doing any crazy power mods. But everytime I see your vids I get "the urge" to add power. :lol:
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 11:31 AM |
I'm not 100% sure what we will do for GT Live as we are still testing. VIR Full Course is a HP course with long straights so I'm leaning towards putting in the Element GT65 kit.
I really like the Element GT52 bolt-on as it spools really fast (20 psi by 3500-3600) and will all the trimmings will do 400 hp on pump gas with an agressive tune or 380 on a normal tune. When I had the GT65 kit on our Time Attack WRX they clocked me at 147 mph about 2/3rds down the front straight at the kink. With this turbocharger I would be lucky to hit that at the end of the straight.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I really like the Element GT52 bolt-on as it spools really fast (20 psi by 3500-3600) and will all the trimmings will do 400 hp on pump gas with an agressive tune or 380 on a normal tune. When I had the GT65 kit on our Time Attack WRX they clocked me at 147 mph about 2/3rds down the front straight at the kink. With this turbocharger I would be lucky to hit that at the end of the straight.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| dyslexicwrx | 09-26-2006 11:53 AM |
Man that is a rad video!!
| skuttledude | 09-26-2006 12:31 PM |
Great driving. well done!
Good quality video
You are going to get some serious speed on the full course.
I get around 135-ish on a Cobb stage 2 on the long straight..you'll hit 150 no prob.
Good quality video
You are going to get some serious speed on the full course.
I get around 135-ish on a Cobb stage 2 on the long straight..you'll hit 150 no prob.
| paulmofyourhand | 09-26-2006 12:32 PM |
haha, i thought the title read
element vs sti vs grand am vs porsche
element vs sti vs grand am vs porsche
| grippgoat | 09-26-2006 12:44 PM |
It seems like maybe you could stand to apex a little later on some of the corners that lead on to the longer straight parts. But it's hard to tell with the narrow view angle, and never having driven VIR.
EDIT: Oh, and was that red porsche at the beginning the same one you almost pwned in the anti-freeze incident? :O
SON OF EDIT: What tires?
-Mike
EDIT: Oh, and was that red porsche at the beginning the same one you almost pwned in the anti-freeze incident? :O
SON OF EDIT: What tires?
-Mike
| chrisarella | 09-26-2006 12:56 PM |
Nice video. You guys seamed to dominate the track that day. Don't you hate it when the slower traffic does yield for you?
Anyway, I think you should keep the turbo you're running with you're driving style. You come out of the corners with your RPMs kind of low, and a bigger turbo will cost you time. You could always test out a new turbo before you're commited in competition but there seam to be enough turns to justify keeping your current setup.
You can also try selecting a lower gear for those tight turns so you're at a higher RPM at the apex and maintaining more boost which will allow you to exiting faster. You make it up in the chicane and gain on him a lot, but then he pulls away coming out of the tight turns. The turn you took at the 9:05 mark where you both passed the green BMW was on of your best exits. I can't tell all that well, but you may be braking late where there are two tight right turnss. I think if you broke a little earlier and treated them as one long right, you'd exit faster. I tend to be a late braker too, but there a times when it hurts to set up for the exit.
Anyway, I think you should keep the turbo you're running with you're driving style. You come out of the corners with your RPMs kind of low, and a bigger turbo will cost you time. You could always test out a new turbo before you're commited in competition but there seam to be enough turns to justify keeping your current setup.
You can also try selecting a lower gear for those tight turns so you're at a higher RPM at the apex and maintaining more boost which will allow you to exiting faster. You make it up in the chicane and gain on him a lot, but then he pulls away coming out of the tight turns. The turn you took at the 9:05 mark where you both passed the green BMW was on of your best exits. I can't tell all that well, but you may be braking late where there are two tight right turnss. I think if you broke a little earlier and treated them as one long right, you'd exit faster. I tend to be a late braker too, but there a times when it hurts to set up for the exit.
| HamFist | 09-26-2006 12:58 PM |
that was a very nice video. You caught him in the corners but seemed pretty even in the straights, even with your smaller turbo. That first corner at the end of the front strait looked like you were going to fly right off course :lol:. Did you basically whip a switchback wide in 3rd gear? Very impressive. You flat out humiliated them in the corners.
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 01:18 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat;15388511]It seems like maybe you could stand to apex a little later on some of the corners that lead on to the longer straight parts. But it's hard to tell with the narrow view angle, and never having driven VIR.
EDIT: Oh, and was that red porsche at the beginning the same one you almost pwned in the anti-freeze incident? :O
SON OF EDIT: What tires?
-Mike[/QUOTE]
I'm getting better as a driver so I really at this point can never definitely say my lines or the "traditional racing line" is better/faster. What I do know is that each track is different and what you cannot see on the video is debris etc. I typically through out the day experiment with lines to find the best speed or traction and later take lap times off my video to see what line combinations were fastest. You have to search for the grip and sometimes the grip is off a traditional line. Another thing I've noticed from many of my videos is that when I'm slightly outside the apex I seem to have better lap times. I attribute this to scrubbing off less speed by not trying so hard to turn into the apex. Sometimes I just can't turn in hard enough to get there so I keep opening up the wheel to keep accelerating. To hit the traditional line I have to slow down more. This is not always the case if the track isn�t wide enough and then an early apex puts you in the dirt.
Typically a late apex does work better with the STI but the �S� section where I was clearly taking an early apex was substantially faster than the Grand-Am car taking the traditional line. I tried both and could always close the gap there by apexing early and making as close to a straight as possible. I make two light turns instead of two hard turns.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]http://www.elementtuning.com[/url]
EDIT: Oh, and was that red porsche at the beginning the same one you almost pwned in the anti-freeze incident? :O
SON OF EDIT: What tires?
-Mike[/QUOTE]
I'm getting better as a driver so I really at this point can never definitely say my lines or the "traditional racing line" is better/faster. What I do know is that each track is different and what you cannot see on the video is debris etc. I typically through out the day experiment with lines to find the best speed or traction and later take lap times off my video to see what line combinations were fastest. You have to search for the grip and sometimes the grip is off a traditional line. Another thing I've noticed from many of my videos is that when I'm slightly outside the apex I seem to have better lap times. I attribute this to scrubbing off less speed by not trying so hard to turn into the apex. Sometimes I just can't turn in hard enough to get there so I keep opening up the wheel to keep accelerating. To hit the traditional line I have to slow down more. This is not always the case if the track isn�t wide enough and then an early apex puts you in the dirt.
Typically a late apex does work better with the STI but the �S� section where I was clearly taking an early apex was substantially faster than the Grand-Am car taking the traditional line. I tried both and could always close the gap there by apexing early and making as close to a straight as possible. I make two light turns instead of two hard turns.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]http://www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| AndrewSS | 09-26-2006 01:54 PM |
Nice video, car was looking fast, good job :)
| grippgoat | 09-26-2006 02:01 PM |
[QUOTE=Element Tuning;15389040]
Typically a late apex does work better with the STI but the �S� section where I was clearly taking an early apex was substantially faster than the Grand-Am car taking the traditional line. I tried both and could always close the gap there by apexing early and making as close to a straight as possible. I make two light turns instead of two hard turns.
[/QUOTE]
Watching the video again, at about the 7:00 mark, it looks like what happens is that you close the gap under braking before the left hander, carry a bit more speed through the first left, but that he then pulls away from you through the second S, and keeps pulling away until you close the gap in the next braking zone. While the early apex does seem faster for the first left, the video makes it look like you might be overall faster if you gave it up in the middle to try and apex the second left later.
There's also a few spots where it looks like you're lifting a bit at track-out to keep it on the track, which suggest perhaps a bit later apex, or waiting just a hair longer to get on the throttle and make sure you hit the apex.
Again, though, I haven't driven VIR, and I wasn't in your car. I'm just trying to give you some food for thought.
-Mike
Typically a late apex does work better with the STI but the �S� section where I was clearly taking an early apex was substantially faster than the Grand-Am car taking the traditional line. I tried both and could always close the gap there by apexing early and making as close to a straight as possible. I make two light turns instead of two hard turns.
[/QUOTE]
Watching the video again, at about the 7:00 mark, it looks like what happens is that you close the gap under braking before the left hander, carry a bit more speed through the first left, but that he then pulls away from you through the second S, and keeps pulling away until you close the gap in the next braking zone. While the early apex does seem faster for the first left, the video makes it look like you might be overall faster if you gave it up in the middle to try and apex the second left later.
There's also a few spots where it looks like you're lifting a bit at track-out to keep it on the track, which suggest perhaps a bit later apex, or waiting just a hair longer to get on the throttle and make sure you hit the apex.
Again, though, I haven't driven VIR, and I wasn't in your car. I'm just trying to give you some food for thought.
-Mike
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist;15388760]that was a very nice video. You caught him in the corners but seemed pretty even in the straights, even with your smaller turbo. That first corner at the end of the front strait looked like you were going to fly right off course :lol:. Did you basically whip a switchback wide in 3rd gear? Very impressive. You flat out humiliated them in the corners.[/QUOTE]
Thanks and I had gone flying off the track there once :lol: but that was on the RA1s. With the Hoosiers I could brake a lot later.
I never went lower than 3rd gear in any of the turns. You can't tell from the video so much but the rear end was fighting for tracking even in 3rd gear.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Thanks and I had gone flying off the track there once :lol: but that was on the RA1s. With the Hoosiers I could brake a lot later.
I never went lower than 3rd gear in any of the turns. You can't tell from the video so much but the rear end was fighting for tracking even in 3rd gear.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 02:50 PM |
[QUOTE=grippgoat;15389707]Watching the video again, at about the 7:00 mark, it looks like what happens is that you close the gap under braking before the left hander, carry a bit more speed through the first left, but that he then pulls away from you through the second S, and keeps pulling away until you close the gap in the next braking zone. While the early apex does seem faster for the first left, the video makes it look like you might be overall faster if you gave it up in the middle to try and apex the second left later.
There's also a few spots where it looks like you're lifting a bit at track-out to keep it on the track, which suggest perhaps a bit later apex, or waiting just a hair longer to get on the throttle and make sure you hit the apex.
Again, though, I haven't driven VIR, and I wasn't in your car. I'm just trying to give you some food for thought.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
I appreciate the advice. On a few occasions I tried the Porsche's line but I just could not rotate my car the way he could. He would also powerslide to tighten his exit and would just later me on a couple of turns where I would just plow and wait for traction. The track rolls off camber if you go wide and those areas are where I really struggled for front end grip. These were the areas I tried to stay inside to maximize traction.
I just might run this turbocharger. I'll be honest with you it's down right intimidating to run a near 600 hp track car! I usually backed the WRX Time Attack car down to about 480 whp and even then it's tough. I should be able to bring this combo up to a reliable 450 whp but keep in mind I'll be competing against the Zero Sports STI which is around 400 hp and the Cyber EVO which is around 600 HP. Since we normally compete in the limited class I'm going give it all she's got but realistically I'm just looking to stay in the ball park with those unlimited cars.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
There's also a few spots where it looks like you're lifting a bit at track-out to keep it on the track, which suggest perhaps a bit later apex, or waiting just a hair longer to get on the throttle and make sure you hit the apex.
Again, though, I haven't driven VIR, and I wasn't in your car. I'm just trying to give you some food for thought.
-Mike[/QUOTE]
I appreciate the advice. On a few occasions I tried the Porsche's line but I just could not rotate my car the way he could. He would also powerslide to tighten his exit and would just later me on a couple of turns where I would just plow and wait for traction. The track rolls off camber if you go wide and those areas are where I really struggled for front end grip. These were the areas I tried to stay inside to maximize traction.
I just might run this turbocharger. I'll be honest with you it's down right intimidating to run a near 600 hp track car! I usually backed the WRX Time Attack car down to about 480 whp and even then it's tough. I should be able to bring this combo up to a reliable 450 whp but keep in mind I'll be competing against the Zero Sports STI which is around 400 hp and the Cyber EVO which is around 600 HP. Since we normally compete in the limited class I'm going give it all she's got but realistically I'm just looking to stay in the ball park with those unlimited cars.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| HamFist | 09-26-2006 02:55 PM |
Can you tune brake bias in your car? I don't hear about that very often with our cars. Joel at PDMturbos devised a simple front/rear bias dial on a GC one time that worked out quite well. I think it had a single stage brake booster, though. I don't know if the dual stage later models would like it.
| Impreza01 | 09-26-2006 03:32 PM |
Isn't your center differential fried with the different diametered wheels?
| PA04STI | 09-26-2006 03:36 PM |
How much of a difference did the ball joint extenders make. Is it really noticeable?
Good Luck at the GT Live...
Oh loved the other two vids. You made one hell of a save in the radiator vid.
Did you have to check your pants when you saw yourself heading straight for that red Porche...lol? I definitely would have...lol
Matt
Good Luck at the GT Live...
Oh loved the other two vids. You made one hell of a save in the radiator vid.
Did you have to check your pants when you saw yourself heading straight for that red Porche...lol? I definitely would have...lol
Matt
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 03:42 PM |
[QUOTE=Impreza01;15391125]Isn't your center differential fried with the different diametered wheels?[/QUOTE]
:lol:
It likely would be if I was running two different sized wheels and tires front to rear. I have two sets of wheels and I am experimenting with both at different times.
:lol:
It likely would be if I was running two different sized wheels and tires front to rear. I have two sets of wheels and I am experimenting with both at different times.
| xcntrk75 | 09-26-2006 04:00 PM |
Nice driving...and a very well equipped car� :eek:
I like that last strait where you hit 6th gear with about 2-car lengths between you.
I kept waiting for a pass there towards the end, but I guess sticking on his bumper is accomplishment enough.. :D
I like that last strait where you hit 6th gear with about 2-car lengths between you.
I kept waiting for a pass there towards the end, but I guess sticking on his bumper is accomplishment enough.. :D
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 04:02 PM |
[QUOTE=PA04STI;15391189]How much of a difference did the ball joint extenders make. Is it really noticeable?
Good Luck at the GT Live...
Oh loved the other two vids. You made one hell of a save in the radiator vid.
Did you have to check your pants when you saw yourself heading straight for that red Porche...lol? I definitely would have...lol
Matt[/QUOTE]
Matt,
They did make a difference as it allowed me to lower the front of the car more without a negative impact of a severely decreasing camber curve. I was also able to dial out a touch of negative camber which really helps tire wear.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Good Luck at the GT Live...
Oh loved the other two vids. You made one hell of a save in the radiator vid.
Did you have to check your pants when you saw yourself heading straight for that red Porche...lol? I definitely would have...lol
Matt[/QUOTE]
Matt,
They did make a difference as it allowed me to lower the front of the car more without a negative impact of a severely decreasing camber curve. I was also able to dial out a touch of negative camber which really helps tire wear.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| Element Tuning | 09-26-2006 04:35 PM |
[QUOTE=xcntrk75;15391541]Nice driving...and a very well equipped car� :eek:
I like that last strait where you hit 6th gear with about 2-car lengths between you.
I kept waiting for a pass there towards the end, but I guess sticking on his bumper is accomplishment enough.. :D[/QUOTE]
Well it was a club event so we're not supposed to be racing each other ;) The two cars were pretty evenly matched well at least with me driving the STI :lol: I could have blasted right by the Porsche when the BMW slowed his exit speed towards the end of the video. Since this was a Porsche event I didn't want to get on anyones bad side by taking a pass without the finger :lol:
Also have you seen the size of the Hoosier tires they run on those Porsche Cup cars? They are 305-315 width against my massive 245s. :furious:
My car was seriously overheating and my brake pedal just about hit the floor heading to the oak tree so I needed to pull off at that point. I will address the overheating issue with a cooler thermostat as I had already installed the Koyo radiator from the other Time Attack car. For the brakes I need to make sure may pads are not worn past 2/3rds and I'm going to install titanium backing plates. This should be just enough to prevent the fluid from boiling. Without the RCE Brake Ducts I don't think I would have even made it that long.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I like that last strait where you hit 6th gear with about 2-car lengths between you.
I kept waiting for a pass there towards the end, but I guess sticking on his bumper is accomplishment enough.. :D[/QUOTE]
Well it was a club event so we're not supposed to be racing each other ;) The two cars were pretty evenly matched well at least with me driving the STI :lol: I could have blasted right by the Porsche when the BMW slowed his exit speed towards the end of the video. Since this was a Porsche event I didn't want to get on anyones bad side by taking a pass without the finger :lol:
Also have you seen the size of the Hoosier tires they run on those Porsche Cup cars? They are 305-315 width against my massive 245s. :furious:
My car was seriously overheating and my brake pedal just about hit the floor heading to the oak tree so I needed to pull off at that point. I will address the overheating issue with a cooler thermostat as I had already installed the Koyo radiator from the other Time Attack car. For the brakes I need to make sure may pads are not worn past 2/3rds and I'm going to install titanium backing plates. This should be just enough to prevent the fluid from boiling. Without the RCE Brake Ducts I don't think I would have even made it that long.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| spazegun2213 | 09-26-2006 04:55 PM |
Damn phil.. just damn!!
| Safe Drives | 09-26-2006 05:24 PM |
Phil,
It kinda looks like your running that old style roll bar padding. That stuff has been shown in testing to be not nearly as safe as the new higher density paddings like what we offer at [URL="http://safedrives.com"]Safe Drives LLC[/URL]. Give me a call and I'll ship you some of the better padding.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
safedrives.com
877-739-1713 Toll Free
cburen at safedrives.com
It kinda looks like your running that old style roll bar padding. That stuff has been shown in testing to be not nearly as safe as the new higher density paddings like what we offer at [URL="http://safedrives.com"]Safe Drives LLC[/URL]. Give me a call and I'll ship you some of the better padding.
Best regards,
Charles Buren
safedrives.com
877-739-1713 Toll Free
cburen at safedrives.com
| eastcoastbumps | 09-26-2006 05:53 PM |
^ Send me some too! :)
| Impreza01 | 09-26-2006 06:25 PM |
[QUOTE=Element Tuning;15391285]:lol:
It likely would be if I was running two different sized wheels and tires front to rear. I have two sets of wheels and I am experimenting with both at different times.[/QUOTE]
The way the mod list was written, I assumed you had 17s in the front and 18s in the rear. :p
It likely would be if I was running two different sized wheels and tires front to rear. I have two sets of wheels and I am experimenting with both at different times.[/QUOTE]
The way the mod list was written, I assumed you had 17s in the front and 18s in the rear. :p
| trhoppe | 09-26-2006 07:20 PM |
Nice video! Glad the 6 Gun Ball Joint Adapter kit worked out well for ya!
-Tom
-Tom
| Element Tuning | 09-27-2006 08:14 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe;15394138]Nice video! Glad the 6 Gun Ball Joint Adapter kit worked out well for ya!
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tom and I'm looking forward to a little more time perfecting the setup with these. Being able to lower the car more really helps to control the front end lifting on me during corner exit and high speed sections.
I need a bigger front air damn to get a little more downforce!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Thanks Tom and I'm looking forward to a little more time perfecting the setup with these. Being able to lower the car more really helps to control the front end lifting on me during corner exit and high speed sections.
I need a bigger front air damn to get a little more downforce!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 09-27-2006 03:31 PM |
Hello,
Why are so many of these videos posted as "my car versus some cool car or some racecar"? These titles belittle the otherwise often impressive cars and accomplishments that shops create and strive for.
I'm not singling out Phil - this thread reminds me of another tuner's "look, when a Ford GT is at 1/4 throttle and exiting the track on its cool-down lap, my car can pass it!"
First, time attack and shop cars are built to pretty much NO rules. Race cars typically have very strict rules that may significantly decrease their performance. Without knowing anything about BGB's car, I would guess that it probably has about 400 hp - depending on what Phil's measuring his HP on, possibly no more power than Phil has (certainly, the way Phil closed the gap each time the Porsche had a much better corner exit leads me to believe Phil has more area under his curve relative to the vehicle weights)... The rules require the Porsches to run 245-wide fronts and 275-wide rears, not "305-315", like you guessed, Phil.
Second, was the #84 "racing" or driving 8/10ths? Was the team working on collecting data on steady state cornering? Were they working on transitional changes? (you probably know better than we do - was he going into the pits from time to time? even if not, though, perhaps he was using infrared tire temp sensors and logging the data so perhaps he didn't need to come in...). Were they putting miles on a motor that was about to come out, just to do more research into wear characteristics? Were they testing a new camel back, for heck's sake? Were they working on radio communications (training their spotters, discussing things with a driver who jumps when he's talked to after long silence, etc)?
Third, who was driving? BGB rents their cars out to many drivers. Was this a rental driver (many of whom, frankly, suck) who had never driven a high horsepower car before, learning the car that he would be driving in the season finale enduro? Was this the crew chief or a suspension engineer, driving to get a feel for the complaints the drivers were making?
Or, as Phil seems to imply, was this BGB's best driver, driving with the car perfectly setup for VIR, with a refreshed motor and shocks, driving at 10/10ths, giving it his everything, ready to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into a professional race program, just to try to keep some silly street car behind him?
Phil's car looks fast and his driving looks reasonable. The car seems pretty cool. Don't belittle your accomplishments and car by making grandiose claims without even figuring out what you were driving "against"!
Joel
Why are so many of these videos posted as "my car versus some cool car or some racecar"? These titles belittle the otherwise often impressive cars and accomplishments that shops create and strive for.
I'm not singling out Phil - this thread reminds me of another tuner's "look, when a Ford GT is at 1/4 throttle and exiting the track on its cool-down lap, my car can pass it!"
First, time attack and shop cars are built to pretty much NO rules. Race cars typically have very strict rules that may significantly decrease their performance. Without knowing anything about BGB's car, I would guess that it probably has about 400 hp - depending on what Phil's measuring his HP on, possibly no more power than Phil has (certainly, the way Phil closed the gap each time the Porsche had a much better corner exit leads me to believe Phil has more area under his curve relative to the vehicle weights)... The rules require the Porsches to run 245-wide fronts and 275-wide rears, not "305-315", like you guessed, Phil.
Second, was the #84 "racing" or driving 8/10ths? Was the team working on collecting data on steady state cornering? Were they working on transitional changes? (you probably know better than we do - was he going into the pits from time to time? even if not, though, perhaps he was using infrared tire temp sensors and logging the data so perhaps he didn't need to come in...). Were they putting miles on a motor that was about to come out, just to do more research into wear characteristics? Were they testing a new camel back, for heck's sake? Were they working on radio communications (training their spotters, discussing things with a driver who jumps when he's talked to after long silence, etc)?
Third, who was driving? BGB rents their cars out to many drivers. Was this a rental driver (many of whom, frankly, suck) who had never driven a high horsepower car before, learning the car that he would be driving in the season finale enduro? Was this the crew chief or a suspension engineer, driving to get a feel for the complaints the drivers were making?
Or, as Phil seems to imply, was this BGB's best driver, driving with the car perfectly setup for VIR, with a refreshed motor and shocks, driving at 10/10ths, giving it his everything, ready to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into a professional race program, just to try to keep some silly street car behind him?
Phil's car looks fast and his driving looks reasonable. The car seems pretty cool. Don't belittle your accomplishments and car by making grandiose claims without even figuring out what you were driving "against"!
Joel
| PA04STI | 09-27-2006 03:39 PM |
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L;15405997]Hello,
Why are so many of these videos posted as "my car versus some cool car or some racecar"? These titles belittle the otherwise often impressive cars and accomplishments that shops create and strive for.
I'm not singling out Phil - this thread reminds me of another tuner's "look, when a Ford GT is at 1/4 throttle and exiting the track on its cool-down lap, my car can pass it!"
First, time attack and shop cars are built to pretty much NO rules. Race cars typically have very strict rules that may significantly decrease their performance. Without knowing anything about BGB's car, I would guess that it probably has about 400 hp - depending on what Phil's measuring his HP on, possibly no more power than Phil has (certainly, the way Phil closed the gap each time the Porsche had a much better corner exit leads me to believe Phil has more area under his curve relative to the vehicle weights)... The rules require the Porsches to run 245-wide fronts and 275-wide rears, not "305-315", like you guessed, Phil.
Second, was the #84 "racing" or driving 8/10ths? Was the team working on collecting data on steady state cornering? Were they working on transitional changes? (you probably know better than we do - was he going into the pits from time to time? even if not, though, perhaps he was using infrared tire temp sensors and logging the data so perhaps he didn't need to come in...). Were they putting miles on a motor that was about to come out, just to do more research into wear characteristics? Were they testing a new camel back, for heck's sake? Were they working on radio communications (training their spotters, discussing things with a driver who jumps when he's talked to after long silence, etc)?
Third, who was driving? BGB rents their cars out to many drivers. Was this a rental driver (many of whom, frankly, suck) who had never driven a high horsepower car before, learning the car that he would be driving in the season finale enduro? Was this the crew chief or a suspension engineer, driving to get a feel for the complaints the drivers were making?
Or, as Phil seems to imply, was this BGB's best driver, driving with the car perfectly setup for VIR, with a refreshed motor and shocks, driving at 10/10ths, giving it his everything, ready to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into a professional race program, just to try to keep some silly street car behind him?
Phil's car looks fast and his driving looks reasonable. The car seems pretty cool. Don't belittle your accomplishments and car by making grandiose claims without even figuring out what you were driving "against"!
Joel[/QUOTE]
Well its just a guess but don't you think Phil might have known about the setup on this car is or who is driving it?
Seems he got your panties in a bunch...What's the big deal here its a vid on a forum?
And most good driver should know when a car is running slower be it cool down and what not. Or when a car is a better (faster) car. I know a factory race Porsche is way faster then an STi but either way it was cool he was keeping up with it plus for him what other car would you want in front of you to try and keep up with. Yes the Porsche might have been going slower who cares....And yes I know there are restrictions for this Porsche to race in Grand Am.
I'd be happy as hell in a full modded STi to be keeping up with a Porsche even in a stock state the Porsche is a dominant race car period
Then again your member# is 32 so who am I to say anything
Just RELAX its only a vid and not a personal attack!
Matt
Why are so many of these videos posted as "my car versus some cool car or some racecar"? These titles belittle the otherwise often impressive cars and accomplishments that shops create and strive for.
I'm not singling out Phil - this thread reminds me of another tuner's "look, when a Ford GT is at 1/4 throttle and exiting the track on its cool-down lap, my car can pass it!"
First, time attack and shop cars are built to pretty much NO rules. Race cars typically have very strict rules that may significantly decrease their performance. Without knowing anything about BGB's car, I would guess that it probably has about 400 hp - depending on what Phil's measuring his HP on, possibly no more power than Phil has (certainly, the way Phil closed the gap each time the Porsche had a much better corner exit leads me to believe Phil has more area under his curve relative to the vehicle weights)... The rules require the Porsches to run 245-wide fronts and 275-wide rears, not "305-315", like you guessed, Phil.
Second, was the #84 "racing" or driving 8/10ths? Was the team working on collecting data on steady state cornering? Were they working on transitional changes? (you probably know better than we do - was he going into the pits from time to time? even if not, though, perhaps he was using infrared tire temp sensors and logging the data so perhaps he didn't need to come in...). Were they putting miles on a motor that was about to come out, just to do more research into wear characteristics? Were they testing a new camel back, for heck's sake? Were they working on radio communications (training their spotters, discussing things with a driver who jumps when he's talked to after long silence, etc)?
Third, who was driving? BGB rents their cars out to many drivers. Was this a rental driver (many of whom, frankly, suck) who had never driven a high horsepower car before, learning the car that he would be driving in the season finale enduro? Was this the crew chief or a suspension engineer, driving to get a feel for the complaints the drivers were making?
Or, as Phil seems to imply, was this BGB's best driver, driving with the car perfectly setup for VIR, with a refreshed motor and shocks, driving at 10/10ths, giving it his everything, ready to throw away hundreds of thousands of dollars invested into a professional race program, just to try to keep some silly street car behind him?
Phil's car looks fast and his driving looks reasonable. The car seems pretty cool. Don't belittle your accomplishments and car by making grandiose claims without even figuring out what you were driving "against"!
Joel[/QUOTE]
Well its just a guess but don't you think Phil might have known about the setup on this car is or who is driving it?
Seems he got your panties in a bunch...What's the big deal here its a vid on a forum?
And most good driver should know when a car is running slower be it cool down and what not. Or when a car is a better (faster) car. I know a factory race Porsche is way faster then an STi but either way it was cool he was keeping up with it plus for him what other car would you want in front of you to try and keep up with. Yes the Porsche might have been going slower who cares....And yes I know there are restrictions for this Porsche to race in Grand Am.
I'd be happy as hell in a full modded STi to be keeping up with a Porsche even in a stock state the Porsche is a dominant race car period
Then again your member# is 32 so who am I to say anything
Just RELAX its only a vid and not a personal attack!
Matt
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 09-27-2006 03:58 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=PA04STI;15406125]Well its just a guess but don't you think Phil might have known about the setup on this car is or who is driving it?[/quote]
For the most part, if you want to know what a Grand Am car setup is like, just look at the rules: there are very few places where a team can do whatever they want... and certainly those are the places the team will guard their secrets well. Phil said the tires on the Porsche looked like 305-315... well, they're 245/275. So, no, I don't think he knew what the car setup was...
[quote]Seems he got your panties in a bunch...What's the big deal here its a vid on a forum?[/quote]
[b]EXACTLY[/b]. I wish more companies posted "its a vid on a forum." I think it's dumb when companies post "look, our car (or my driving) is on par with a professional racecar." It's not, that's not the point of the pro-racecar, and anyway, it makes you look like an amateur schmuck to people who know what's going on.
[quote]I know a factory race Porsche is way faster then an STi[/quote]
Properly built, I have no doubt a professional race STI could be made to be as fast as an appropriately classed professional racing Porsche (ie, I think the ESX STI could have been made to run with the big boys in WCGT if they'd found funding).
[quote]but either way it was cool he was keeping up with it plus for him what other car would you want in front of you to try and keep up with.[/quote]
Exactly. His accomplishment was great. He muddled it with a comparison that made him look like he was going for some glory that I think wasn't there.
[quote]Just RELAX its only a vid and not a personal attack![/QUOTE]
Heh, I'm relaxed! We're between seasons, so I'm only working 12-16 hrs a day, doing, among other things, what I love - building new racecars for next season. Woot! :)
Joel
[QUOTE=PA04STI;15406125]Well its just a guess but don't you think Phil might have known about the setup on this car is or who is driving it?[/quote]
For the most part, if you want to know what a Grand Am car setup is like, just look at the rules: there are very few places where a team can do whatever they want... and certainly those are the places the team will guard their secrets well. Phil said the tires on the Porsche looked like 305-315... well, they're 245/275. So, no, I don't think he knew what the car setup was...
[quote]Seems he got your panties in a bunch...What's the big deal here its a vid on a forum?[/quote]
[b]EXACTLY[/b]. I wish more companies posted "its a vid on a forum." I think it's dumb when companies post "look, our car (or my driving) is on par with a professional racecar." It's not, that's not the point of the pro-racecar, and anyway, it makes you look like an amateur schmuck to people who know what's going on.
[quote]I know a factory race Porsche is way faster then an STi[/quote]
Properly built, I have no doubt a professional race STI could be made to be as fast as an appropriately classed professional racing Porsche (ie, I think the ESX STI could have been made to run with the big boys in WCGT if they'd found funding).
[quote]but either way it was cool he was keeping up with it plus for him what other car would you want in front of you to try and keep up with.[/quote]
Exactly. His accomplishment was great. He muddled it with a comparison that made him look like he was going for some glory that I think wasn't there.
[quote]Just RELAX its only a vid and not a personal attack![/QUOTE]
Heh, I'm relaxed! We're between seasons, so I'm only working 12-16 hrs a day, doing, among other things, what I love - building new racecars for next season. Woot! :)
Joel
| Rally_wgn | 09-27-2006 09:18 PM |
^^^ Joel get those GOTO cars built and find the funds to get to VIR next year. I still plan on making the run to Birmingham but seeing you guys at VIR would be a little easier.
PHil Great Job on the car! I love the sound of that monster. I completely understand your pride in closing in on and staying with the GrandAM car. Good Luck at GT Live.
I wont be able to make it
PHil Great Job on the car! I love the sound of that monster. I completely understand your pride in closing in on and staying with the GrandAM car. Good Luck at GT Live.
I wont be able to make it
| Element Tuning | 09-27-2006 10:06 PM |
Joel,
I won�t take as much offense to your post as I should but you are reading more into this than is there. Neither the title of the post or anything I have said belittles anyone or makes any outrageous claims about our car or my driving. This post is simply a �feel good� Subaru post and nothing more.
With that said BGB is a highly successful team with podium finishes this year in Grand-Am and shows they know what it takes to win. On top of all that they are really nice people and I enjoyed speaking with them, learning from them, and absorbing any advice I could from them. The car is question is a new car they were testing and setting up. It has no where near 400 hp, it has about 300 hp. The tires I mentioned were likely from the GT3 and no the Grand-Am car that was there also, my bad. The driver I had a conversation with, I don�t think would appreciate being called �sucky.� While he may not be the most decorated driver on the team he is listed as one of their drivers. All of us chatted and they were mildly impressed but we all knew what was up. We chatted about where I was making time and where they were making time. They saw exactly where this was happening, after all that is part of their job. I was making time in one of the braking zones and they explained why. Their brakes need to last for hours not minutes so they have to build the system around that.
Your point about an unlimited Time Attack car having an unfair advantage over a restricted race car is true so I�m not sure why a time attack car running pace with a restricted race car would be such a surprise to you of all people. But to clear this point up we do not have an �unlimited� Time Attack car. We have very few modifications at this point in time. Just like BGB I also was testing a new car and it still has temporary tags on it. I even had to run with 15 gallons of fuel every session or I would fuel cut towards the end. I drove it 5 hours to the track, ran for two days, and then drove 5 hours back.
I do take offense to some of your comments so I want to share with you my purpose for tracking our Time Attack project. For the last couple of years we honestly haven�t put forth a truly sincere effort to win a Time Attack event not because we didn�t want to but because we didn�t understand what it took. We pretty much relied on the extreme talent that Gary Sheehan has to put it together on the track. We would take tire temps, tire pressures, lap times etc and it never really meant much to me as I didn�t know how to react to the data. I was lost to say the least in regards to taking action to our driver�s feedback. Gary would have to pull double duty not only driving but setting up the car.
I�ve committed myself this year to learn as much as I could about car setup and the only way I know how to do anything is to get down and dirty with hands-on experience. My experience as a driver on a road course can be counted on two hands but I know every now and then I can put in a decently quick lap. As I became better as a driver things Gary had mentioned to me started to make sense. The difference now is that I can make setup changes for better or worse. This trial an error process has been invaluable in setting up our car. I�m now at the point where I won�t need someone like Gary to dissect the tire temps and pressures for me. I will be able to look at them, make the appropriate adjustments, and improve our lap times. I also understand how each available setting alters handling characteristics and what positive or negative effects they cause. I know how the track temp will change my starting tire pressures, I know exactly how long my brake pads will last, when the fluid will boil, when the tires will wear out, how long my struts will last, how aggressively I can tune, the pros and cons of stiff sway bars and soft springs vs. soft sway bars and stiff springs, and more. You just can�t learn this stuff until you get out there and hammer the car more than once a year. I have the utmost respect for team managers and crew in how they are able to optimize the car without driving it.
I have no plans to run many Time Attack events as a driver but I�m likely going to drive the GT Live event. The odds are stacked against me and our car as I realized that I am not yet capable of maximizing the lap times with a 500+ hp Time Attack car so I only showing up with about 400. An easy to drive powerband will result in quicker lap times for me.
I have no aspirations of being a professional driver but I must admit I am addicted to level of adrenaline and fun. I too work extremely long hours and I�m seriously over worked. When I drive our Time Attack car I can block everything that�s trying in my life and truly enjoy the moment. Luckily I can enjoy the ride and when it�s over make adjustments to our car to make it faster and take pride in what has been accomplished.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I won�t take as much offense to your post as I should but you are reading more into this than is there. Neither the title of the post or anything I have said belittles anyone or makes any outrageous claims about our car or my driving. This post is simply a �feel good� Subaru post and nothing more.
With that said BGB is a highly successful team with podium finishes this year in Grand-Am and shows they know what it takes to win. On top of all that they are really nice people and I enjoyed speaking with them, learning from them, and absorbing any advice I could from them. The car is question is a new car they were testing and setting up. It has no where near 400 hp, it has about 300 hp. The tires I mentioned were likely from the GT3 and no the Grand-Am car that was there also, my bad. The driver I had a conversation with, I don�t think would appreciate being called �sucky.� While he may not be the most decorated driver on the team he is listed as one of their drivers. All of us chatted and they were mildly impressed but we all knew what was up. We chatted about where I was making time and where they were making time. They saw exactly where this was happening, after all that is part of their job. I was making time in one of the braking zones and they explained why. Their brakes need to last for hours not minutes so they have to build the system around that.
Your point about an unlimited Time Attack car having an unfair advantage over a restricted race car is true so I�m not sure why a time attack car running pace with a restricted race car would be such a surprise to you of all people. But to clear this point up we do not have an �unlimited� Time Attack car. We have very few modifications at this point in time. Just like BGB I also was testing a new car and it still has temporary tags on it. I even had to run with 15 gallons of fuel every session or I would fuel cut towards the end. I drove it 5 hours to the track, ran for two days, and then drove 5 hours back.
I do take offense to some of your comments so I want to share with you my purpose for tracking our Time Attack project. For the last couple of years we honestly haven�t put forth a truly sincere effort to win a Time Attack event not because we didn�t want to but because we didn�t understand what it took. We pretty much relied on the extreme talent that Gary Sheehan has to put it together on the track. We would take tire temps, tire pressures, lap times etc and it never really meant much to me as I didn�t know how to react to the data. I was lost to say the least in regards to taking action to our driver�s feedback. Gary would have to pull double duty not only driving but setting up the car.
I�ve committed myself this year to learn as much as I could about car setup and the only way I know how to do anything is to get down and dirty with hands-on experience. My experience as a driver on a road course can be counted on two hands but I know every now and then I can put in a decently quick lap. As I became better as a driver things Gary had mentioned to me started to make sense. The difference now is that I can make setup changes for better or worse. This trial an error process has been invaluable in setting up our car. I�m now at the point where I won�t need someone like Gary to dissect the tire temps and pressures for me. I will be able to look at them, make the appropriate adjustments, and improve our lap times. I also understand how each available setting alters handling characteristics and what positive or negative effects they cause. I know how the track temp will change my starting tire pressures, I know exactly how long my brake pads will last, when the fluid will boil, when the tires will wear out, how long my struts will last, how aggressively I can tune, the pros and cons of stiff sway bars and soft springs vs. soft sway bars and stiff springs, and more. You just can�t learn this stuff until you get out there and hammer the car more than once a year. I have the utmost respect for team managers and crew in how they are able to optimize the car without driving it.
I have no plans to run many Time Attack events as a driver but I�m likely going to drive the GT Live event. The odds are stacked against me and our car as I realized that I am not yet capable of maximizing the lap times with a 500+ hp Time Attack car so I only showing up with about 400. An easy to drive powerband will result in quicker lap times for me.
I have no aspirations of being a professional driver but I must admit I am addicted to level of adrenaline and fun. I too work extremely long hours and I�m seriously over worked. When I drive our Time Attack car I can block everything that�s trying in my life and truly enjoy the moment. Luckily I can enjoy the ride and when it�s over make adjustments to our car to make it faster and take pride in what has been accomplished.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| DJSuperSoul | 09-27-2006 10:59 PM |
Good job out there Phil. it takes a lot of balls and deep pockets to run this type of event.
Pro teams have money to spend on engineers, telemetry, tire sponsors, etc. that allow them to just drive the car and walk away at the end of the day to let the wrench fix it. you are in a different situation
I'd be stoked to hang with a race car on this course.
Good Luck
mitch
Pro teams have money to spend on engineers, telemetry, tire sponsors, etc. that allow them to just drive the car and walk away at the end of the day to let the wrench fix it. you are in a different situation
I'd be stoked to hang with a race car on this course.
Good Luck
mitch
| ScottC | 09-27-2006 11:37 PM |
Nice driving skills phil. The new cars is looking good, but it still no bugeye.(lol)
| heet | 09-28-2006 12:08 AM |
thanks for the vid... We know you want to show something interesting and not just impress the rubes... Which would you rather watch : "STI going around an empty track" OR "STI chasing down a race prepped Porsche"?
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 09-28-2006 02:58 AM |
Hello,
[quote]I won�t take as much offense to your post as I should[/quote]
I didn't intend for you to take offense. I simply expressed that I really dislike when people choose to post "look, we're better than..." rather than "had fun chasing a ..." Look at the difference between:
Element STI vs. Grand-Am Porsche Video, and
Element STI playing with Grand-Am Porsche Video
[quote]It has no where near 400 hp, it has about 300 hp.[/quote]
So, it's far from its GAC specification and is significantly slower than a "real" GAC Porsche. So it's even a worse title to the thread - perhaps "Element STI vs. not yet built GAC Porsche?"
[quote]The driver I had a conversation with, I don�t think would appreciate being called �sucky.�[/quote]
Err, good thing I didn't say he was sucky... I asked if it was a rental driver and I said that many rental drivers suck.
[quote]We have very few modifications at this point in time.[/quote]
You also said you had 340 hp... which you've now said is 40 or so more hp than the Porsche. I'm just pointing out that the "VS" title is silly and pointless and screams of marketing-speak.
[quote]I do take offense to some of your comments so I want to share with you my purpose for tracking our Time Attack project.[/quote]
First, I want to be clear - my post is coming from me and has nothing to do with Gary's experience with your company - I wasn't involved in that and although I still work with Gary in this field, I'm currently not racing with him. My post was from me, and me alone. Then...
Your story is PERFECT! That's exactly what I love to hear. That's what I wish more shops and more people were doing! It's an excellent place to be, learning, applying, learning some more. I am absolutely confident that everyone, your customers included, will benefit from the things you learn. I applaud your commitment to learning more about racing, performance characteristics, etc.
My only gripe was the "versus" issue. Your performance on the track was great, but it wasn't "versus" a GAC racecar... Heck, racecraft never even entered the picture!
Joel
PS - Rally_wgn, I worked as Crew Chief for GOTO only for the 2006 season. For 2007, I'm with another team...
[quote]I won�t take as much offense to your post as I should[/quote]
I didn't intend for you to take offense. I simply expressed that I really dislike when people choose to post "look, we're better than..." rather than "had fun chasing a ..." Look at the difference between:
Element STI vs. Grand-Am Porsche Video, and
Element STI playing with Grand-Am Porsche Video
[quote]It has no where near 400 hp, it has about 300 hp.[/quote]
So, it's far from its GAC specification and is significantly slower than a "real" GAC Porsche. So it's even a worse title to the thread - perhaps "Element STI vs. not yet built GAC Porsche?"
[quote]The driver I had a conversation with, I don�t think would appreciate being called �sucky.�[/quote]
Err, good thing I didn't say he was sucky... I asked if it was a rental driver and I said that many rental drivers suck.
[quote]We have very few modifications at this point in time.[/quote]
You also said you had 340 hp... which you've now said is 40 or so more hp than the Porsche. I'm just pointing out that the "VS" title is silly and pointless and screams of marketing-speak.
[quote]I do take offense to some of your comments so I want to share with you my purpose for tracking our Time Attack project.[/quote]
First, I want to be clear - my post is coming from me and has nothing to do with Gary's experience with your company - I wasn't involved in that and although I still work with Gary in this field, I'm currently not racing with him. My post was from me, and me alone. Then...
Your story is PERFECT! That's exactly what I love to hear. That's what I wish more shops and more people were doing! It's an excellent place to be, learning, applying, learning some more. I am absolutely confident that everyone, your customers included, will benefit from the things you learn. I applaud your commitment to learning more about racing, performance characteristics, etc.
My only gripe was the "versus" issue. Your performance on the track was great, but it wasn't "versus" a GAC racecar... Heck, racecraft never even entered the picture!
Joel
PS - Rally_wgn, I worked as Crew Chief for GOTO only for the 2006 season. For 2007, I'm with another team...
| NewSTI | 09-28-2006 03:27 AM |
dang that's some good driving skill...and only a bit slower on straight...amazing... good job !!!
| Element Tuning | 09-28-2006 08:43 AM |
Joel,
"vs" doesn't mean better than or worse than it just makes a comparison for better or for worse.
I never claimed to have less HP than the Porsche but claimed we had similar power to weight ratios. I'm only making an educated guess on my HP as I have neither tuned or dynoed my current setup. I can make this assumption on power as I have tuned many similar setups. I just dropped a base map in and went to the track.
Please don't presume you know more than me about this car as they openly discussed what was done to it. I think the reason you are in disbelief is because you think this is a Grand Am "GT" used in the Rolex Series where they use 400 hp, 2500lbs GT3s. This was not a GT3 Cup car as they were also on the track and had me reaching for my boost controller :lol: This is a GS car where they are much more limited in what they can do for power. Our other Time Attack WRX pulled GT3 Cup cars down the straight so I know what power it takes to at least run with them. On this day our STI did not have that level of power but for the GT Live event I should have 100 more HP and maybe a popped stock motor at the end if I get desparate ;)
Don't worry I wasn't aligning Gary with you just giving you my perspective.
I have a degree in marketing and have been in marketing related jobs most of my life. I choose my words carefully and can back them up but what's wrong with marketing speak I am a vendor after all :)
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
"vs" doesn't mean better than or worse than it just makes a comparison for better or for worse.
I never claimed to have less HP than the Porsche but claimed we had similar power to weight ratios. I'm only making an educated guess on my HP as I have neither tuned or dynoed my current setup. I can make this assumption on power as I have tuned many similar setups. I just dropped a base map in and went to the track.
Please don't presume you know more than me about this car as they openly discussed what was done to it. I think the reason you are in disbelief is because you think this is a Grand Am "GT" used in the Rolex Series where they use 400 hp, 2500lbs GT3s. This was not a GT3 Cup car as they were also on the track and had me reaching for my boost controller :lol: This is a GS car where they are much more limited in what they can do for power. Our other Time Attack WRX pulled GT3 Cup cars down the straight so I know what power it takes to at least run with them. On this day our STI did not have that level of power but for the GT Live event I should have 100 more HP and maybe a popped stock motor at the end if I get desparate ;)
Don't worry I wasn't aligning Gary with you just giving you my perspective.
I have a degree in marketing and have been in marketing related jobs most of my life. I choose my words carefully and can back them up but what's wrong with marketing speak I am a vendor after all :)
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| mjautoxer | 09-28-2006 08:50 AM |
Well said Phil. Gtlive will be a hoot. I will be driving the AMS evo in the time attack, and look forward to meeting you there. We are all just getting going on the learning curve for time attack, but I can tell you that there will be cars in the time attack that will be much quicker than the GS grand am cup Porsche's. The Cyber Evo was over 6 seconds quicker than Pumpally in the 997 Porsche at the GTlive out at Phoenix earlier this year.
Mark
Mark
| Element Tuning | 09-28-2006 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE=mjautoxer;15414986]Well said Phil. Gtlive will be a hoot. I will be driving the AMS evo in the time attack, and look forward to meeting you there. We are all just getting going on the learning curve for time attack, but I can tell you that there will be cars in the time attack that will be much quicker than the GS grand am cup Porsche's. The Cyber Evo was over 6 seconds quicker than Pumpally in the 997 Porsche at the GTlive out at Phoenix earlier this year.
Mark[/QUOTE]
Thanks and looking forward to meeting you. Yes I know the Cyber EVO first hand when we competed against it a couple year ago in California. I don't think the GS car will be anywhere in the ball park lap time wise to this car as VIR has two long straights and one really long up hill "S" section. Everyone needs good handling but this is a HP track (at least the full course is).
Good Luck and I'll see you there!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Mark[/QUOTE]
Thanks and looking forward to meeting you. Yes I know the Cyber EVO first hand when we competed against it a couple year ago in California. I don't think the GS car will be anywhere in the ball park lap time wise to this car as VIR has two long straights and one really long up hill "S" section. Everyone needs good handling but this is a HP track (at least the full course is).
Good Luck and I'll see you there!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| chrisarella | 09-28-2006 12:11 PM |
[QUOTE=mjautoxer;15414986]...I will be driving the AMS evo in the time attack, and look forward to meeting you there. We are all just getting going on the learning curve for time attack, but I can tell you that there will be cars in the time attack that will be much quicker than the GS grand am cup Porsche's. The Cyber Evo was over 6 seconds quicker than Pumpally in the 997 Porsche at the GTlive out at Phoenix earlier this year.[/QUOTE]
I'm also interested to see if GM brings out the Factory Tuned Cobalt at the Time Attack and how well it stacks up against the field since they upped the ante this past year. Good luck hanging with that car if it shows up. It's tough to beat an OEM backing a team technically and financially.
I'm also interested to see if GM brings out the Factory Tuned Cobalt at the Time Attack and how well it stacks up against the field since they upped the ante this past year. Good luck hanging with that car if it shows up. It's tough to beat an OEM backing a team technically and financially.
| WRXedUSA | 09-28-2006 12:31 PM |
I like the aggressive AWD corner into #1.
Powerwise you were a match to that white car. The car rotated well.
Powerwise you were a match to that white car. The car rotated well.
| mjautoxer | 09-28-2006 12:51 PM |
[QUOTE=chrisarella;15417345]I'm also interested to see if GM brings out the Factory Tuned Cobalt at the Time Attack and how well it stacks up against the field since they upped the ante this past year. Good luck hanging with that car if it shows up. It's tough to beat an OEM backing a team technically and financially.[/QUOTE]
From what I have heard, the cobalt with Heinracy is a tentative yes to show up. But judging by lap times run at buttonwillow 13, the cyber evo would be at least two seconds quicker. We shall see though. I am really looking forward to running with these cars.
Mark
From what I have heard, the cobalt with Heinracy is a tentative yes to show up. But judging by lap times run at buttonwillow 13, the cyber evo would be at least two seconds quicker. We shall see though. I am really looking forward to running with these cars.
Mark
| Element Tuning | 09-28-2006 01:28 PM |
[QUOTE=WRXedUSA;15417665]I like the aggressive AWD corner into #1.
Powerwise you were a match to that white car. The car rotated well.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. The track in the video is the "South" course so turn 1 here isn't used at all for the "full" course. After the tree that straightway extends another 1/4 mile. Watch the video and look down track. This will be a 160 mph straight for some of the high power cars. I was somewhere around 135 mph into the braking zone at turn 1 on the "South" course but for the GT Live event there's a long way to go :) The main straight in our other car was clocked at the tower/kink at 147 mph so I probably hit 155 mph into the braking zone. The back uphil "S" section is taken at 125-130 mph. You can see a small portion of this in the video before it drops down hill to the left.
HP and big kahunas will prevail! :lol:
Here is a map:
[IMG]http://www.virclub.com/vir/images/track/track_map.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Powerwise you were a match to that white car. The car rotated well.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. The track in the video is the "South" course so turn 1 here isn't used at all for the "full" course. After the tree that straightway extends another 1/4 mile. Watch the video and look down track. This will be a 160 mph straight for some of the high power cars. I was somewhere around 135 mph into the braking zone at turn 1 on the "South" course but for the GT Live event there's a long way to go :) The main straight in our other car was clocked at the tower/kink at 147 mph so I probably hit 155 mph into the braking zone. The back uphil "S" section is taken at 125-130 mph. You can see a small portion of this in the video before it drops down hill to the left.
HP and big kahunas will prevail! :lol:
Here is a map:
[IMG]http://www.virclub.com/vir/images/track/track_map.jpg[/IMG]
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| PA04STI | 09-28-2006 03:51 PM |
CYBER EVO:
2500lbs
600HP:eek:
Yeah its a missle on wheels with a crazy Japanese driver & yeah he has BIG KAHUNAS according to his quickest time...
Maybe his lugs might not be tightened enough.
I wish I could attend GTLive you can go for a ride in the Cyber evo and Zerosports STi I would sit in line all day for that.
[url]http://www.gtlivetour.com/events/att/gtsr.html[/url]
Matt
2500lbs
600HP:eek:
Yeah its a missle on wheels with a crazy Japanese driver & yeah he has BIG KAHUNAS according to his quickest time...
Maybe his lugs might not be tightened enough.
I wish I could attend GTLive you can go for a ride in the Cyber evo and Zerosports STi I would sit in line all day for that.
[url]http://www.gtlivetour.com/events/att/gtsr.html[/url]
Matt
| Rally_wgn | 09-29-2006 05:22 PM |
Oops, sorry about that Joel, good luck.
If you dont mind me asking, is it another Subaru team?
PM me to avoid ninja highjack of Phil's thread.
If you dont mind me asking, is it another Subaru team?
PM me to avoid ninja highjack of Phil's thread.
| mnavarro | 09-30-2006 01:19 AM |
[QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L;15406453]Hello,
I wish more companies posted "its a vid on a forum." I think it's dumb when companies post "look, our car (or my driving) is on par with a professional racecar." It's not, that's not the point of the pro-racecar, and anyway, it makes you look like an amateur schmuck to people who know what's going on.
Joel[/QUOTE]
I think you're reading too much into Phil's post ... phil merely suggested that they had similar power to weight ratios. Phil is not a professional driver but it's cool to see a subi out there racing on the track next to a real race car. And headlines get people to read the story!
I think it's also clear that Phil had to work much harder on his car to keep up with the porsche... like late breaking, the engine overheating/brakes. The traditional line is probably a lot easier on your car for the duration of the race. It seems like sometimes you scrubbed off a little speed where the Porshce would be faster running the traditional line, carrying more speed through the turn.
I wish more companies posted "its a vid on a forum." I think it's dumb when companies post "look, our car (or my driving) is on par with a professional racecar." It's not, that's not the point of the pro-racecar, and anyway, it makes you look like an amateur schmuck to people who know what's going on.
Joel[/QUOTE]
I think you're reading too much into Phil's post ... phil merely suggested that they had similar power to weight ratios. Phil is not a professional driver but it's cool to see a subi out there racing on the track next to a real race car. And headlines get people to read the story!
I think it's also clear that Phil had to work much harder on his car to keep up with the porsche... like late breaking, the engine overheating/brakes. The traditional line is probably a lot easier on your car for the duration of the race. It seems like sometimes you scrubbed off a little speed where the Porshce would be faster running the traditional line, carrying more speed through the turn.
| Element Tuning | 09-30-2006 08:22 AM |
[QUOTE=mnavarro;15439892]
I think it's also clear that Phil had to work much harder on his car to keep up with the porsche... like late breaking, the engine overheating/brakes. The traditional line is probably a lot easier on your car for the duration of the race. It seems like sometimes you scrubbed off a little speed where the Porshce would be faster running the traditional line, carrying more speed through the turn.[/QUOTE]
Definitely. I watch these videos and try to find where I can make time. I'm definitely turning in too early on a couple of sections where I think it would make a significant difference not too. The left downhill turn before the tree I could probably go flat out if I had turned in later. It's a little intimidating however since it's blind and in 5th gear. I'm happy that the car is good enought that I can get away with unconventional lines.
We'll see how it all pans out next week.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
I think it's also clear that Phil had to work much harder on his car to keep up with the porsche... like late breaking, the engine overheating/brakes. The traditional line is probably a lot easier on your car for the duration of the race. It seems like sometimes you scrubbed off a little speed where the Porshce would be faster running the traditional line, carrying more speed through the turn.[/QUOTE]
Definitely. I watch these videos and try to find where I can make time. I'm definitely turning in too early on a couple of sections where I think it would make a significant difference not too. The left downhill turn before the tree I could probably go flat out if I had turned in later. It's a little intimidating however since it's blind and in 5th gear. I'm happy that the car is good enought that I can get away with unconventional lines.
We'll see how it all pans out next week.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| boost junkie | 10-01-2006 12:39 AM |
Very nice vid Phil! I'd be interested to see what that car could do on VIR Full. I've never driven the South Course before but based on what I saw it looks like your car is set up nicely for it. The GT65 would probably help you gain a little bit of time on the full course but even then, that quick spool would be nice for the tighter turns like Oak Tree. I also have to give some credit to your driving skills...even when I saw you drive the WRX at Hyperfest I couldn't believe it when Myles told me how much track experience you had. Oh, and speaking of which, keep an eye on those brake pads ;)
-Dan
-Dan
| Element Tech | 10-01-2006 09:50 PM |
[quote=boost I also have to give some credit to your driving skills...even when I saw you drive the WRX at Hyperfest I couldn't believe it when ;)
-Dan[/quote]
You can thank his many years racing Motocross as a background for the quick learing curve. Huh? Phil. You guys are lucky there's no jumps. :D
-Dan[/quote]
You can thank his many years racing Motocross as a background for the quick learing curve. Huh? Phil. You guys are lucky there's no jumps. :D
| Element Tuning | 10-02-2006 11:14 AM |
Motocross definitely helps me especially with lines. Conventional lines aren't used in MX instead you seek out traction, avoid bumps, and look for berms or ruts you can use for extra cornering speed. Creativity is usually rewarded in MX. This is really helpful when racing wheel to wheel but not so much for qualifying where there may only be a few fast lines. The hardest transition for me from MX to cars was the speed and judging braking points. Car setup was also a major hurdle as no matter how much you move your body around in a car it has no effect on how fast the car goes like it does on a motorcycle.
Racing motorcycles for so long has pushed the wheel-to-wheel or in that case shoulder-to-shoulder competition bug out of my system. I�ve got enough trophies. LOL! Cars are too expensive to replace!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Racing motorcycles for so long has pushed the wheel-to-wheel or in that case shoulder-to-shoulder competition bug out of my system. I�ve got enough trophies. LOL! Cars are too expensive to replace!
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| javid | 10-02-2006 03:17 PM |
Nice video Phil. You are going to have a blast in the car on full course, let me know if you want some of my notes from full course or if theres anything else we can do for ya.
javid
6Gun Racing
javid
6Gun Racing
| jblaine | 10-02-2006 03:45 PM |
Nice driving, Phil.
Please don't die. I will have Hydramist questions for you in a few weeks.
Please don't die. I will have Hydramist questions for you in a few weeks.
| Element Tuning | 10-02-2006 07:47 PM |
[QUOTE=jblaine;15463285]Nice driving, Phil.
Please don't die. I will have Hydramist questions for you in a few weeks.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Don't worry I am only capable of driving fast at 8/10ths. At 10/10th I'm a lot slower so I try to avoid it :)
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Please don't die. I will have Hydramist questions for you in a few weeks.[/QUOTE]
:lol: Don't worry I am only capable of driving fast at 8/10ths. At 10/10th I'm a lot slower so I try to avoid it :)
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| 22bsport | 10-03-2006 12:38 AM |
man good driving love the vid 2!!
| Element Tuning | 10-03-2006 08:38 AM |
Thanks for all the compliments I'll do my best at GT Live.
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| Butt Dyno | 10-03-2006 01:14 PM |
Phil, out of curiosity are you still running 14k/12k?
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883878[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883878[/url]
| Element Tuning | 10-03-2006 09:46 PM |
[QUOTE=ButtDyno;15475746]Phil, out of curiosity are you still running 14k/12k?
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883878[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes for now but thinking about making some changes. I've also had a damper change to my JICs.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=883878[/url][/QUOTE]
Yes for now but thinking about making some changes. I've also had a damper change to my JICs.
Thanks,
Phil
[url]www.elementtuning.com[/url]
| KNS Brakes | 10-03-2006 11:29 PM |
We'll bring plenty of spares for ya - I want to see those Brembo's turn BLACK!
| Element Tech | 10-04-2006 07:59 PM |
[quote=WRXBrakes;15484447]We'll bring plenty of spares for ya - I want to see those Brembo's turn BLACK![/quote]
Hopefully the Ti backing plates wont let that happen.;)
Hopefully the Ti backing plates wont let that happen.;)
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