| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 11:49 AM |
Braaaaakes
�
�
A few questions about brakes and autox :)
Shawn (my codriver) who is coming from a Type R with R-compounds is complaining about the WRX brakes (surprise!) I've always liked the brakes and they haven't let me down (other then ice mode). So I have a question. Is it
a) Perspective
b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck
Also, what will upgrading the brakes get me? Do I need to touch the rears or just upgrade the fronts??
Right now I have stainless lines, Carbotech bobcats, and ATE fluid and the stock damn rotors :eek: 50K miles, 2.5 years, oloa..... I very much like the way they feel. Of course they could be like a Type R, but I figured that was a car limitation.
I was thinking about
a) Wilwood 6 pot fronts with huge rotors and carbotech bobcats
b) Carbotech stock sized rotors and bobcats on the rear, stock calipers
How does that sound? Is there a setup that would be better? I know the stoptechs actually have less brake torque with their bigass calipers then the stockers. I'm assuming its the same thing with the wilwoods. Do I need to upgrade the rear calipers as well and rear rotors to prevent too much brake bias in the front?? Wilwood also makes the 4 pot rears, but that puts me at $2000. Thats a lot of $$ to convince a sponsor to swallow ;)
-Tom
Shawn (my codriver) who is coming from a Type R with R-compounds is complaining about the WRX brakes (surprise!) I've always liked the brakes and they haven't let me down (other then ice mode). So I have a question. Is it
a) Perspective
b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck
Also, what will upgrading the brakes get me? Do I need to touch the rears or just upgrade the fronts??
Right now I have stainless lines, Carbotech bobcats, and ATE fluid and the stock damn rotors :eek: 50K miles, 2.5 years, oloa..... I very much like the way they feel. Of course they could be like a Type R, but I figured that was a car limitation.
I was thinking about
a) Wilwood 6 pot fronts with huge rotors and carbotech bobcats
b) Carbotech stock sized rotors and bobcats on the rear, stock calipers
How does that sound? Is there a setup that would be better? I know the stoptechs actually have less brake torque with their bigass calipers then the stockers. I'm assuming its the same thing with the wilwoods. Do I need to upgrade the rear calipers as well and rear rotors to prevent too much brake bias in the front?? Wilwood also makes the 4 pot rears, but that puts me at $2000. Thats a lot of $$ to convince a sponsor to swallow ;)
-Tom
| KC | 04-27-2004 11:59 AM |
Short of upgrading the brake booster, there's nothing on this planet for auto-x that'll help the WRX in an auto-x environment...
So... "b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck"
--kC
So... "b) I'm driving around the fact that the brakes suck"
--kC
| driggity | 04-27-2004 12:03 PM |
What aspect of the brakes is he complaining about? Is it feel, fade resistance, stopping power? The solution is going to depend on what the "problem" is. If all you want to do change brake bias and feel you can do so for a good deal less than whatever a big brake kit costs. And while the Wilwood kit may shift brake bias to the rear I wouldn't just assume that it does. There are some kits out there (like one of the Brembo kits) that increase front brake torque and moves the bias farther forward.
| del105 | 04-27-2004 12:04 PM |
I'd keep the sucky brakes, because they are not that bad.
| jmott | 04-27-2004 12:30 PM |
you aren't going to get fade in an autocross. so upgrading the calipers/rotors would be pointless.
some grippy pads might be useful if you can't get enough brake power to engage ABS on the r-compounds.
some grippy pads might be useful if you can't get enough brake power to engage ABS on the r-compounds.
| lukerussell | 04-27-2004 12:34 PM |
autocross, i'd agree w/ KC based on me autocrossing about 4 times in my entire life. so my vote probably shouldn't count.
on the track, my friend had a type r. he could out brake me by about 150 ft. (i'd brake at 400, he'd brake at 250). even w/ my stop techs. he just bought an sti and curses the brakes. he's now braking way back where i am. it boils down to the weight differences of the cars (his type r was on a healthly weight loss plan).
he also liked the fact that his car had more rear bias. he could be slightly off line, reach over with his left foot and tap the brake, and it would slightly rotate the rear and tighten the line up to where he needed to be.
luke
on the track, my friend had a type r. he could out brake me by about 150 ft. (i'd brake at 400, he'd brake at 250). even w/ my stop techs. he just bought an sti and curses the brakes. he's now braking way back where i am. it boils down to the weight differences of the cars (his type r was on a healthly weight loss plan).
he also liked the fact that his car had more rear bias. he could be slightly off line, reach over with his left foot and tap the brake, and it would slightly rotate the rear and tighten the line up to where he needed to be.
luke
| KoneKiller | 04-27-2004 01:09 PM |
Odd that the STi brakes well in car mag tests but still sucks.
| Fred | 04-27-2004 01:19 PM |
Tell Shawn to quit crying and just drive the car. ;) Damn Type R owners... :rolleyes:
I think my brakes feel great with just the Bobcats, but I haven't driven the Type R lately. I do know that the last time I drove it, I almost hit my head on the steering wheel at the first braking zone. :lol:
I think my brakes feel great with just the Bobcats, but I haven't driven the Type R lately. I do know that the last time I drove it, I almost hit my head on the steering wheel at the first braking zone. :lol:
| Watkinsm3 | 04-27-2004 01:26 PM |
Anyone coming from a Type-R is gonna be a brake snob. The car really does have phenomenal brakes. Even coming from my GS-R (which has horrible ABS and only mediocre brakes compared to the R) I've been struggling to get the feel where I want it to be with the STi. Granted it does weigh over 800lbs more then my integra, it could still use some more "feel".
Unfortunatly I've never driven a regular old run of da mill WRX so... maybe I should not comment at all! :D
-Matt
Unfortunatly I've never driven a regular old run of da mill WRX so... maybe I should not comment at all! :D
-Matt
| KC | 04-27-2004 01:49 PM |
/me slaps Tom around for even thinking about this after... what... years of discussion on how bad Subaru brakes suck.
Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6
Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.
Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
Edit: Added EVO
--kC
Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6
Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.
Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
Edit: Added EVO
--kC
| BriDrive | 04-27-2004 02:01 PM |
My opinion....BBK ALMOST universally accepted as not needed for auto-x, as their biggest advantage is heat dissipation efficiency (fade reduction on road course, continuous heavy heat cycles)which isn't a problem in auto-x. If your OEM's are starting to fade, maybe just a new set of fresh rotors, and the pads and lines you have already are considered optimal for their application.
Now Mikey, who is dragging almost the whole course (:lol: ), he may benefit from BBK..........
But Hey! Since a sponsor is willing to pick up the tab...Why Not!
Now Mikey, who is dragging almost the whole course (:lol: ), he may benefit from BBK..........
But Hey! Since a sponsor is willing to pick up the tab...Why Not!
| driggity | 04-27-2004 02:10 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by jmott[/i]
[B]so upgrading the calipers/rotors would be pointless.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well there are weight savings to be had in those areas. Also a stiffer caliper and different brake piston sizes are going to have an effect on pedal feel. And the potential changes in brake bias. If the cost is worth those benefits is really going to depend on the individual.
[B]so upgrading the calipers/rotors would be pointless.[/B][/QUOTE]
Well there are weight savings to be had in those areas. Also a stiffer caliper and different brake piston sizes are going to have an effect on pedal feel. And the potential changes in brake bias. If the cost is worth those benefits is really going to depend on the individual.
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 02:12 PM |
He complains about the "feel" which is why I think a 6 pot blingy kit can help him. Hell, one can always use more brake feel :)
Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.
This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)
I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.
This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"
If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)
-Tom
Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.
This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)
I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.
This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"
If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)
-Tom
| KC | 04-27-2004 02:21 PM |
Even the new GTO at 3750lbs... brakes at 125 feet.
--kC
--kC
| driggity | 04-27-2004 02:28 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Even the new GTO at 3750lbs... brakes at 125 feet.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
And it has much bigger and probably better tires than a WRX. Tires make a huge difference in braking distance.
Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option.
[B] Even the new GTO at 3750lbs... brakes at 125 feet.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
And it has much bigger and probably better tires than a WRX. Tires make a huge difference in braking distance.
Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option.
| afpdl | 04-27-2004 02:37 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B]
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
RE070s instead of re92s is probobably the biggest difference in the test numbers.
[B]
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
RE070s instead of re92s is probobably the biggest difference in the test numbers.
| KC | 04-27-2004 02:53 PM |
I understand that. However, the feel of the Mazdas are very good, and they go along with their braking numbers.
Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX.
Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX.
| TyrannoSullyRex | 04-27-2004 03:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] I understand that. However, the feel of the Mazdas are very good, and they go along with their braking numbers.
Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Mazda 3s I drove at the rev-it-up had pretty good brake feel, with a very aggresive tip in. And the brakes look TINY on those things.
Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC)
[B] I understand that. However, the feel of the Mazdas are very good, and they go along with their braking numbers.
Take an RX8 out for a test drive. The car is barely lighter than a WRX. [/B][/QUOTE]
The Mazda 3s I drove at the rev-it-up had pretty good brake feel, with a very aggresive tip in. And the brakes look TINY on those things.
Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC)
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 03:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity[/i]
[B] Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is that, I just don't think that will help me at all in the "feel" department, which is his complaint.
It is something that I've read about today and definetly would be something to consider if the sponsor brakes don't work out and I have to use my own money :eek:
-Tom
[B] Tom, if you just want to shift bias rearward a bit there's always the $200 "H6" rear brake option. [/B][/QUOTE]
There is that, I just don't think that will help me at all in the "feel" department, which is his complaint.
It is something that I've read about today and definetly would be something to consider if the sponsor brakes don't work out and I have to use my own money :eek:
-Tom
| KC | 04-27-2004 03:06 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TyrannoSullyRex [/i]
[B]Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC) [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, the place I was getting my numbers from does have the 3 as 125 feet.
--KC
[B]Mazda3 (2857 lbs) 60-0 = 125 Ft. (I'm probably not getting that from the same source as KC) [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, the place I was getting my numbers from does have the 3 as 125 feet.
--KC
| KC | 04-27-2004 03:07 PM |
Feel for Subarus is definitely the difference between the Single Stage booster and the stock Dual Stage booster.
--KC
--KC
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 03:07 PM |
So looks like the Mazda 3 has the same brakes as the WRX :lol:
-Tom
-Tom
| MNbiker | 04-27-2004 04:21 PM |
Cripes Tom, you TRULY are Mr. Indecisive!:rolleyes: :lol: :lol:
IMHO - WRX brakes are the weakest link in the car. The ABS system, in particular, is junk. I've had some top-notch co-drivers (who are not used to WRX's) have major issues with the brakes. Unfortunately, nothing that's STX-legal can truly remedy these shortcomings. (ABS changeout not legal, sticky tires not legal)
It is something you adapt to, though. I almost never hit the ABS, and don't feel like I'm "babying" the brakes. Look at it this way, driving a WRX is excellent practice for learning threshhold braking!:p :lol:
If you REALLY want to spend money, just get an H6 rotor upgrade for the rear. It adds about 10% more swept area to the rear brakes, shifting brake bias rearward just about as much as the Stoptech kit, but for a LOT less money!;)
-Steve
(who still longs for the wonderful brakes in the E46 BMW he used to own....)
IMHO - WRX brakes are the weakest link in the car. The ABS system, in particular, is junk. I've had some top-notch co-drivers (who are not used to WRX's) have major issues with the brakes. Unfortunately, nothing that's STX-legal can truly remedy these shortcomings. (ABS changeout not legal, sticky tires not legal)
It is something you adapt to, though. I almost never hit the ABS, and don't feel like I'm "babying" the brakes. Look at it this way, driving a WRX is excellent practice for learning threshhold braking!:p :lol:
If you REALLY want to spend money, just get an H6 rotor upgrade for the rear. It adds about 10% more swept area to the rear brakes, shifting brake bias rearward just about as much as the Stoptech kit, but for a LOT less money!;)
-Steve
(who still longs for the wonderful brakes in the E46 BMW he used to own....)
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 04:55 PM |
Me? Indecisive? No? Am i? You sure? I dunno?
*Maybe* (:lol: :rolleyes: ) I should just tell shawn, hey buddy get used to it, the brakes suck and those blingy kits aren't going to help anything......
My next question is then "WHAT is the crappy pedal "feel" caused by? Is it by the floating flexible calipers?" If so, that CAN be fixed by nice calipers.....
I could get the stoptechs and THEN the H6 rear rotors :devil:
[quote]If you REALLY want to spend money[/quote] I hate spending $$. I'm trying to get the sponsors to help a brother out here!
-Tom
*Maybe* (:lol: :rolleyes: ) I should just tell shawn, hey buddy get used to it, the brakes suck and those blingy kits aren't going to help anything......
My next question is then "WHAT is the crappy pedal "feel" caused by? Is it by the floating flexible calipers?" If so, that CAN be fixed by nice calipers.....
I could get the stoptechs and THEN the H6 rear rotors :devil:
[quote]If you REALLY want to spend money[/quote] I hate spending $$. I'm trying to get the sponsors to help a brother out here!
-Tom
| BriDrive | 04-27-2004 05:04 PM |
I think that alot of the "feel" issues are caliper related and booster related.
Subie 4 pots up front + H6 rear with carbotech and ss lines and maybe new front rotors (especially if you have 50k on the OEM)
Also, stoptech or other BBK certainly won't be any WORSE for auto-x, so if you can get 'em....go for it...............
Subie 4 pots up front + H6 rear with carbotech and ss lines and maybe new front rotors (especially if you have 50k on the OEM)
Also, stoptech or other BBK certainly won't be any WORSE for auto-x, so if you can get 'em....go for it...............
| angryfist | 04-27-2004 05:14 PM |
Tom,
i upgraded to stoptechs at the end of last year. i've only done one autox on them so far and the abs is still super sensitive. on the street they feel a whole lot better. pedal feel is improved. the only thing that agrivates me is pad knockback is increased with the larger pads. stoptech puts more bias in the rear than stock so if you were locking up the fronts this might help a little.
i'm doing 2 events this weekend so i can tell you more after i test them with and without abs.
btw. i was running panther plus' and the axis ultimates that some with the stoptechs suck.
-Jason
i upgraded to stoptechs at the end of last year. i've only done one autox on them so far and the abs is still super sensitive. on the street they feel a whole lot better. pedal feel is improved. the only thing that agrivates me is pad knockback is increased with the larger pads. stoptech puts more bias in the rear than stock so if you were locking up the fronts this might help a little.
i'm doing 2 events this weekend so i can tell you more after i test them with and without abs.
btw. i was running panther plus' and the axis ultimates that some with the stoptechs suck.
-Jason
| MNbiker | 04-27-2004 05:17 PM |
Hey Tom,
One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D
-Steve
One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D
-Steve
| speedyHAM | 04-27-2004 05:48 PM |
A lot of the "feel" problems that subaru's have is the way that the brakes are physically set up to actuate the brake lights. In all the subaru's I have driven there is a dead spot for about the 1st inch of travel. This section is where the brake light switch is being closed and the piston in the MC is not being actuated yet. if you look at the clearances when you take the MC off there is a lot of room to play. If one were to fill the gap in the MC and adjust the brake pedal height along with changing the way the brake lights are actuated, it would result in more direct brake feel and quicker action with the brakes.
As far as shorter stopping distances, lower the weight, and get better tires. As long as you can lock the wheels the only things that help with straight line braking to a stop (60 to 0 tests) are tires and in a very much smaller way- suspension geometry, bushings, shocks and springs. And a better ABS system could go a decent ways towards helping the WRX. <-- almost forgot that last one.
As far as shorter stopping distances, lower the weight, and get better tires. As long as you can lock the wheels the only things that help with straight line braking to a stop (60 to 0 tests) are tires and in a very much smaller way- suspension geometry, bushings, shocks and springs. And a better ABS system could go a decent ways towards helping the WRX. <-- almost forgot that last one.
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 06:55 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by speedyHAM[/i]
[B] if you look at the clearances when you take the MC off there is a lot of room to play. If one were to fill the gap in the MC and adjust the brake pedal height along with changing the way the brake lights are actuated, it would result in more direct brake feel and quicker action with the brakes. [/B][/QUOTE]
So what youre saying is to basically preload the MC a bit?
I have already taken out all the slop that I could find with the brake pedal. I have it to the point that there is about a mm of play in the pedal before it starts to push the MC rod in. Are you saying that even though it starts to push that rod in, it doesn't actually actuate it??
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Hey Tom,
One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I know I glazed them a tad this past weekend, but before then they were just fine. I did a TON of runs in a row. Enough to get my azenis to almost 160 degrees and to slightly fade the bobcats :eek: I was going to flush the fluid out of there tommorow and unglaze the pads with some sandpaper....
Also, "indecisive tom" almost decided what he is going to do.
a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines
b) If we don't get wilwoods. Carbotech stock sized rotors + bobcats + ss lines front. H6 upgrade with carbotech rotors + bobcats + ss lines rear.
-Tom
*hoping for teh bling*
[B] if you look at the clearances when you take the MC off there is a lot of room to play. If one were to fill the gap in the MC and adjust the brake pedal height along with changing the way the brake lights are actuated, it would result in more direct brake feel and quicker action with the brakes. [/B][/QUOTE]
So what youre saying is to basically preload the MC a bit?
I have already taken out all the slop that I could find with the brake pedal. I have it to the point that there is about a mm of play in the pedal before it starts to push the MC rod in. Are you saying that even though it starts to push that rod in, it doesn't actually actuate it??
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Hey Tom,
One other thought. The "feel" of my brakes had been going downhill for a while. Turns out my my front Bobcats were badly glazed. I probably overheated them once or twice at some psuedo-track sessions (yeah, I was too lazy to swap in the Panther XP's:rolleyes: ). Anyway, I replaced them a couple weeks ago, and it was like getting a new set of brakes!:D
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
I know I glazed them a tad this past weekend, but before then they were just fine. I did a TON of runs in a row. Enough to get my azenis to almost 160 degrees and to slightly fade the bobcats :eek: I was going to flush the fluid out of there tommorow and unglaze the pads with some sandpaper....
Also, "indecisive tom" almost decided what he is going to do.
a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines
b) If we don't get wilwoods. Carbotech stock sized rotors + bobcats + ss lines front. H6 upgrade with carbotech rotors + bobcats + ss lines rear.
-Tom
*hoping for teh bling*
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 07:52 PM |
Search n00b
�
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Found a VERY informative thread.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=488816&highlight=wilwood[/url]
-Tom
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=488816&highlight=wilwood[/url]
-Tom
| ConeMasher | 04-27-2004 08:31 PM |
Tom,
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.
-- Gary
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.
-- Gary
| MNbiker | 04-27-2004 09:00 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines [/B][/QUOTE]
Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)
-Steve
[B]a) If we get wilwoods from sponsors then, wilwoods + bobcats + ss lines in front, and carbotech stock sized rear rotors + bobcats + ss lines [/B][/QUOTE]
Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)
-Steve
| trhoppe | 04-27-2004 09:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ConeMasher[/i]
[B] Tom,
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.
-- Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
If someone wants to protest me for removing my dustshields for a legal mod let them. I don't care :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
The ones we are looking at are their 6 pots. Completely different line of calipers. They supposedly lower front torque by like 4 or 5% instead of the stoptech 10%. They are also *supposed* to be a lot less flexy then the POS dynalites.
Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)
-Tom
[B] Tom,
Are you concerned about the legality of H6 upgrade? In my standard overly analytical approach, I've come to be concerned with the fact that the upgrade requires the bending/cutting of the factory rear dust shields. As they aren't addressed in the rules, which simply allow rotor/caliper upgrades, I'd be concerned it could be the target of a weenie protest.
-- Gary [/B][/QUOTE]
If someone wants to protest me for removing my dustshields for a legal mod let them. I don't care :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Can't say as I'm a big fan of the Wilwoods. They're not really sized correctly for the WRX, in that they actually INCREASE front brake bias. The only car I've driven with Wilwoods installed didn't impress me at all. (disclaimer: it was a set of the flexy dynalite calipers - the new ones may be better.)
-Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
The ones we are looking at are their 6 pots. Completely different line of calipers. They supposedly lower front torque by like 4 or 5% instead of the stoptech 10%. They are also *supposed* to be a lot less flexy then the POS dynalites.
Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)
-Tom
| Kostamojen | 04-27-2004 11:06 PM |
I outbraked a Type-R. Its no big deal. Just get a lighter car :p
| sdecker | 04-28-2004 07:49 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Smart man! ;)
[B]Basically, if they are free, I'll take them, but if theyre not, I'm not about to pay $$ for them ;)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Smart man! ;)
| KC | 04-28-2004 08:01 AM |
Tom, the gains you're going to get with bigger brakes in an autox, if any, will NOT be worth it. I know now, that the brakes on our car are sufficiently good for auto-x. Their downside is definitely the feel. But you're used to it... why and go change something that works?
I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.
If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
--kC
I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.
If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
--kC
| MNbiker | 04-28-2004 09:24 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Or just move to Street Mod, where you can replace all the crappy brake components with whatever you want.:devil:
...and get that nice 2.5l STi engine, tranny & diff's.
...and that yummy quick-ratio steering rack.
...and those sticky 275 Hoosiers.
...and the fender flares to go with them.
...and spend $50K+ doing it!:lol: :lol: :lol:
[B]If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Or just move to Street Mod, where you can replace all the crappy brake components with whatever you want.:devil:
...and get that nice 2.5l STi engine, tranny & diff's.
...and that yummy quick-ratio steering rack.
...and those sticky 275 Hoosiers.
...and the fender flares to go with them.
...and spend $50K+ doing it!:lol: :lol: :lol:
| trhoppe | 04-28-2004 09:41 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] Tom, the gains you're going to get with bigger brakes in an autox, if any, will NOT be worth it. I know now, that the brakes on our car are sufficiently good for auto-x. Their downside is definitely the feel. But you're used to it... why and go change something that works?
I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.
If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.
-Tom
[B] Tom, the gains you're going to get with bigger brakes in an autox, if any, will NOT be worth it. I know now, that the brakes on our car are sufficiently good for auto-x. Their downside is definitely the feel. But you're used to it... why and go change something that works?
I haven't seen anyone with the experience you have in the auto-x world post any gains for using BBKs in an auto-x, and having some form of measurement to say they did or didn't make a difference for auto-x.
If it's just to improve feel... buy a different car.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.
-Tom
| KC | 04-28-2004 09:58 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
IMHO, I feel it's an issue with the dual stage booster. Your foot and pedal are not directly linked to the Calipers, the booster is in the way.
I feel that with that weak point, you're only going to receive marginal results, and definietly not worth it.
I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster.
--kC
[B] I agree with you up to the "feel" point. A caliper that is way stiffer then stock will definetly "feel" better. It might be a very slight difference, but I think there will be a difference. The car won't be any faster, but it might inspire some confidence.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
IMHO, I feel it's an issue with the dual stage booster. Your foot and pedal are not directly linked to the Calipers, the booster is in the way.
I feel that with that weak point, you're only going to receive marginal results, and definietly not worth it.
I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster.
--kC
| MNbiker | 04-28-2004 10:27 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm guessing VERY few...
Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :(
[B]I wonder how many of those guys with BBks have upgraded to the Single Stage booster. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm guessing VERY few...
Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :(
| DrBiggly | 04-28-2004 01:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MNbiker[/i]
[B] Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D
Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already...
[B] Too bad brake booster replacements aren't free in STX.;) :( [/B][/QUOTE]
Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D
Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already...
| trhoppe | 04-28-2004 01:44 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly[/i]
[B] Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D
Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already... [/B][/QUOTE]
He meant legal ;)
I already do have the SS lines.
-Tom
[B] Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? :D
Tom I'm suprised that you don't have the SS lines on there already... [/B][/QUOTE]
He meant legal ;)
I already do have the SS lines.
-Tom
| MNbiker | 04-28-2004 01:54 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DrBiggly [/i]
[B]Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, I meant "unrestricted", which is the exact word used in the rules. Too tired to think straight.....:confused:
-Steve
[B]Free? As far as I know none of it's free...or do you mean legal? [/B][/QUOTE] Actually, I meant "unrestricted", which is the exact word used in the rules. Too tired to think straight.....:confused:
-Steve
| Fred | 04-28-2004 02:05 PM |
[QUOTE]So what youre saying is to basically preload the MC a bit?[/QUOTE]
Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.
Learn from my eff-up. :)
Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.
Learn from my eff-up. :)
| ChrisW | 04-28-2004 03:13 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] /me slaps Tom around for even thinking about this after... what... years of discussion on how bad Subaru brakes suck.
Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6
Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.
Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget the EVO in this comparison. It shares the same calipers as the STI but has consistantly better braking times and overall better braking feedback than the STI.
[url]http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0307scc_stievo/[/url]
EVO: 60-0 106ft, (3263 curb weight)
[B] /me slaps Tom around for even thinking about this after... what... years of discussion on how bad Subaru brakes suck.
Subaru, if you're reading this... we want brakes like...
1) Integra Type-R
2) Mazda RX-8, Mazda 6
Yes, the Mazda 6, same weight as a WRX can out brake it and has tons better feel. If Mazda can do it, so can Subaru.
Integra Type-R - 60-0 115 ft (2630 curb weight)
Mazda 6 - 60-0 125 ft (3250 curb weight)
Mazda RX-8 - 60-0 114 ft (3020 curb weight)
WRX Sedan - 60-0 130 ft (3100 curb weight)
STi - 60-0 114 ft (3250 curb weight)
Hmmm... what parts of an STi can be moved over to a WRX... does the STi have a single stage booster?
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't forget the EVO in this comparison. It shares the same calipers as the STI but has consistantly better braking times and overall better braking feedback than the STI.
[url]http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0307scc_stievo/[/url]
EVO: 60-0 106ft, (3263 curb weight)
| KC | 04-28-2004 03:23 PM |
The source I used, to keepit consistant:
Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)
--kC
Evo - 60-0 110 ft (3263 curb weight)
--kC
| spidey02wrx | 04-28-2004 04:08 PM |
Is there anyone out there selling a single stage booster?
| KC | 04-28-2004 04:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by spidey02wrx[/i]
[B] Is there anyone out there selling a single stage booster? [/B][/QUOTE]
I beleive there's a Subaru Part number for it.
Tom: [url]http://www.spdusa.com/soft.htm[/url]
--kC
[B] Is there anyone out there selling a single stage booster? [/B][/QUOTE]
I beleive there's a Subaru Part number for it.
Tom: [url]http://www.spdusa.com/soft.htm[/url]
--kC
| driggity | 04-28-2004 04:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred[/i]
[B] Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.
Learn from my eff-up. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?
Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.
I think that TWR and maybe Chaste Automotive were working on single stage boosters. There are also some other Subarus that came with the single stage booster but I'm not sure how they compare to the WRX booster in terms of size. That information is out there on this board somewhere though.
[B] Ummm... don't do that. I took the slop out of the Imprezas the same way you described, and I did the same to my mom's Forester. Except on the Forester, I took out TOO MUCH slop & pre-loaded the MC. About 2 miles into the test drive, the brakes overheated & started to seize up. Unfortunately, my adjustment wrenches were accidentally left at home!!! :eek: So I had to pull over, let the brakes cool a little, then creep back home with my tail between my legs and let a little slack back into the pedal.
Learn from my eff-up. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?
Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.
I think that TWR and maybe Chaste Automotive were working on single stage boosters. There are also some other Subarus that came with the single stage booster but I'm not sure how they compare to the WRX booster in terms of size. That information is out there on this board somewhere though.
| NeoteriX | 04-28-2004 09:11 PM |
The Mazda 3s with the 2.3L engine (160hp) has bigger brakes than the WRX.
Fronts: 11.8" versus 11.4"
Rears: 11" versus 10.3"
Fronts: 11.8" versus 11.4"
Rears: 11" versus 10.3"
| speedyHAM | 04-28-2004 09:14 PM |
trhoppe- yes, even though the slop is out of the pedal the movement of the rod that actuates the MC does not engage the MC piston for a few tenths of an inch and that leads the the dead travel at the top of the pedal throw. You do not want to pre load the MC at all, but removing all the slop possible (leave a tiny bit for safety) helps the feel a lot.
| rex n effect | 04-28-2004 10:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]Dumb question, but how does one go about removing the slop?[/B][/QUOTE]
| nate49509 | 04-28-2004 11:15 PM |
The brakes in my RS felt the same as the '02-'03's way to spongy. But I have to say the brakes in the '04 feel a lot better. There's not as much slop. And the pedal feel is great.
| 64stx | 04-28-2004 11:39 PM |
I upgraded my brakes to the Stop-techs and they worked well.
The only issues I have is that 1. you do have to adjust the backing plates. 2. they are dusty and 3. I left foot brake, when racing, and was loosing momentum in the corners because the brakes now grab really hard. So I had to go back to normal right footing it.
The only issues I have is that 1. you do have to adjust the backing plates. 2. they are dusty and 3. I left foot brake, when racing, and was loosing momentum in the corners because the brakes now grab really hard. So I had to go back to normal right footing it.
| Subayai WRX | 04-29-2004 03:26 AM |
I tend to disagree with free Wilwood's are better. The issue with the Wilwood's is that they will definitely shift the brake bias to the front, where you do not want it. If you do go with the Wilwood 6-pots, you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. I do know that the folks at Stoptech have taken the bias into account with their brake kits.
I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head. Sure if we take Road & Tracks braking 60 to 0 distance numbers for example:
[b]Accord EX-V6 - 145ft[/b]
Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
[b]Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft[/b] :eek:
Mazda 6s - 136ft
Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
[b]RSX Type S - 146ft[/b]
Boxster S - 116ft
[b]WRX - 138ft[/b]
STi - 111ft
Braking distance number compared on stock outfitted cars, with the factory tires are a complete red herring. We all know the first thing that improves our braking distances are the tires. I know from my own G-Tech tests that the WRX will pull a 1G stop from 60MPH's.
I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller.
I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head. Sure if we take Road & Tracks braking 60 to 0 distance numbers for example:
[b]Accord EX-V6 - 145ft[/b]
Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
[b]Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft[/b] :eek:
Mazda 6s - 136ft
Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
[b]RSX Type S - 146ft[/b]
Boxster S - 116ft
[b]WRX - 138ft[/b]
STi - 111ft
Braking distance number compared on stock outfitted cars, with the factory tires are a complete red herring. We all know the first thing that improves our braking distances are the tires. I know from my own G-Tech tests that the WRX will pull a 1G stop from 60MPH's.
I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller.
| MNbiker | 04-29-2004 08:47 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX [/i]
[B].....you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. [/B][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, this isn't STX-legal.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX [/i]
[B]I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ever driven a BMW 3-Series much? The difference in brake feel between a 3-Series and a WRX is huge. Does brake feel make a difference in ultimate stopping distance numbers in a controlled test? Generally not. Does it make a difference in one's ability to precisely modulate braking force? Absolutely!
-Steve
[B].....you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. [/B][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, this isn't STX-legal.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX [/i]
[B]I say to folks who complain about the brake feel, is that it is mostly in your head. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ever driven a BMW 3-Series much? The difference in brake feel between a 3-Series and a WRX is huge. Does brake feel make a difference in ultimate stopping distance numbers in a controlled test? Generally not. Does it make a difference in one's ability to precisely modulate braking force? Absolutely!
-Steve
| KC | 04-29-2004 09:08 AM |
*** Using my source
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX[/i]
[B]Accord EX-V6 - 145ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft
Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 127 ft
Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 121 ft
Mazda 6s - 136ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 125 ft
Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
*** ??
RSX Type S - 146ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 135 ft
Boxster S - 116ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 115 ft
WRX - 138ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft.
STi - 111ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 114 ft
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not saying who's numbers are right or wrong, but I'd be willing to be that the R&T tests heavily favor American Cars, especially since all the numbers they published for Imported cars are much higher... except for the STi... which stumps me. :)
--kC
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX[/i]
[B]Accord EX-V6 - 145ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft
Accord EX-V6 Coupe - 127ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 127 ft
Mazda MX5 Miata - 150ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 121 ft
Mazda 6s - 136ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 125 ft
Mustang Mach 1 - 122ft
*** ??
RSX Type S - 146ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 135 ft
Boxster S - 116ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 115 ft
WRX - 138ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 130 ft.
STi - 111ft
*** 60-0 braking distance : 114 ft
[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not saying who's numbers are right or wrong, but I'd be willing to be that the R&T tests heavily favor American Cars, especially since all the numbers they published for Imported cars are much higher... except for the STi... which stumps me. :)
--kC
| trhoppe | 04-29-2004 10:00 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subayai WRX[/i]
[B] I tend to disagree with free Wilwood's are better. The issue with the Wilwood's is that they will definitely shift the brake bias to the front, where you do not want it. If you do go with the Wilwood 6-pots, you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. I do know that the folks at Stoptech have taken the bias into account with their brake kits.
I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller. [/B][/QUOTE]
From the research I had done, the Wilwoods were around a 5% increase in the front, with the H6 rears, being a 10% increase in the rear. After that research, I was going to go with both of those on the car (If wilwood gives me a kit). Otherwise, it will be just the H6 rears.
-Tom
[B] I tend to disagree with free Wilwood's are better. The issue with the Wilwood's is that they will definitely shift the brake bias to the front, where you do not want it. If you do go with the Wilwood 6-pots, you will need to fit an adjustable bias controller in, so you can balance out the braking. I do know that the folks at Stoptech have taken the bias into account with their brake kits.
I would concentrate on weight distribution (where possible), lowering the car as low as possible (without compromising the suspension geometry), and H6 rears with a proper bias controller. [/B][/QUOTE]
From the research I had done, the Wilwoods were around a 5% increase in the front, with the H6 rears, being a 10% increase in the rear. After that research, I was going to go with both of those on the car (If wilwood gives me a kit). Otherwise, it will be just the H6 rears.
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 04-29-2004 12:05 PM |
Tom,
Have you thought about the additional unsprung weight and rotational inertia from the calipers and rotors? Assuming increased mass with a BBK, this will be just more mass to turn. Will your braking feel be enough to make up for the "lost" power?
I think I'm going to side with KC here just based on those reasons. I was watching one of the cheesy shows on the SPEED channel where they're building up a RSX-S track car. After putting the stoptechs on, they lost something like 5-10hp? I can't remember the exact number. (They dyno'd the car after every single modification and on every show they did 1 mod.) Their time did very slightly improve around the track, but they mainly attributed that to the brakes no longer fading.
edit: They did say that the feel was a bit better though. :)
Have you thought about the additional unsprung weight and rotational inertia from the calipers and rotors? Assuming increased mass with a BBK, this will be just more mass to turn. Will your braking feel be enough to make up for the "lost" power?
I think I'm going to side with KC here just based on those reasons. I was watching one of the cheesy shows on the SPEED channel where they're building up a RSX-S track car. After putting the stoptechs on, they lost something like 5-10hp? I can't remember the exact number. (They dyno'd the car after every single modification and on every show they did 1 mod.) Their time did very slightly improve around the track, but they mainly attributed that to the brakes no longer fading.
edit: They did say that the feel was a bit better though. :)
| Subayai WRX | 04-29-2004 12:38 PM |
KC, my point was that R&T while a biased magazine (like any are not!), does test the cars in stock configuration. This is why the Miata of all cars yielded such poor numbers!
A brake test done without revealing the brand of tires if useless information. I don't think R&T favors any one brand when you look at the tech data table in the back. Tires are the number source of stopping distance (given the ABS triggers). I totally agree with you in regards to the modulation and feel of different systems. This is why I spend the money and run Endless pads for my D stock WRX. The brake feel is second to none. Do they make the car stop quicker, nope!
Tom, you should try hitting up StopTech. Both are local companies to me, and I talked with Wilwood, and have seen the Wilwoods up close and apart. By biggest beef with the 6 piston, forged calipers was that there is no dust seal on the pistons. While not a problem for a race car, the lack of dust seals just didn't sit well with me on a daily driver.
A brake test done without revealing the brand of tires if useless information. I don't think R&T favors any one brand when you look at the tech data table in the back. Tires are the number source of stopping distance (given the ABS triggers). I totally agree with you in regards to the modulation and feel of different systems. This is why I spend the money and run Endless pads for my D stock WRX. The brake feel is second to none. Do they make the car stop quicker, nope!
Tom, you should try hitting up StopTech. Both are local companies to me, and I talked with Wilwood, and have seen the Wilwoods up close and apart. By biggest beef with the 6 piston, forged calipers was that there is no dust seal on the pistons. While not a problem for a race car, the lack of dust seals just didn't sit well with me on a daily driver.
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