| jcroy66 | 07-19-2006 12:26 PM |
[QUOTE=SWortham]So the people interested in winning may not be offering rides... unless they just don't mind throwing out a run or two.[/QUOTE]In my experience, the best drivers (i.e. the ones who you'd actually BENEFIT from seeing how they drove the course) are either so much better than their class at a local event and/or consider a local event "practice" that they could care less about a passenger's weight. The only things that throw me off about a passenger are:
1) it means I have to give up my second seat cushion (the one that helps me see over the steering wheel), so the passenger has something to sit on :p
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
3) Sometimes, properly looking ahead would involve me looking straight through the passenger's head. :cool:
1) it means I have to give up my second seat cushion (the one that helps me see over the steering wheel), so the passenger has something to sit on :p
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
3) Sometimes, properly looking ahead would involve me looking straight through the passenger's head. :cool:
| sachilles | 07-19-2006 12:48 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]I
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
[/QUOTE]
So I'm not the only one that does that. :lol:
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
[/QUOTE]
So I'm not the only one that does that. :lol:
| flyboymike | 07-19-2006 08:23 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
[/QUOTE]
Just pretend you've got a co-driver. :-p
I'm often faster if I've got the right person sitting over there...
2) I get kinda flustered by the passenger's presence. One of those "Do I still talk myself through the course like I usually try to or will I sound like a crazy person??" :lol:
[/QUOTE]
Just pretend you've got a co-driver. :-p
I'm often faster if I've got the right person sitting over there...
| nKoan | 07-19-2006 08:32 PM |
I get better weight distribuition when someone else is in the car with me.
| fastfreddy | 07-20-2006 07:22 AM |
Here's something a few of you might want to try.
Get a google satellite image of the location of the autocross.
Then, on your first walk through, jot down the cone positions on it.
Use the second run to confirm the positions and jot down and pacenote like information like where to cut, where to caution etc.
Then sit in air conditioned luxury and read over the course for a bit.
I find that my rate of hitting cones had dropped tremendously since using this.
MSN-live have a cool birds eye view feature which is ideal for an autocross perspective of the course.
For eaxmple here is the devens facility near boston:
[url]http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=r2w0m190zknb&style=o&lvl=2&scene=167005[/url]
Also, if driving a subaru, i find that doing a pagan rain dance the night before an event can have a significant impact on your pax!
Get a google satellite image of the location of the autocross.
Then, on your first walk through, jot down the cone positions on it.
Use the second run to confirm the positions and jot down and pacenote like information like where to cut, where to caution etc.
Then sit in air conditioned luxury and read over the course for a bit.
I find that my rate of hitting cones had dropped tremendously since using this.
MSN-live have a cool birds eye view feature which is ideal for an autocross perspective of the course.
For eaxmple here is the devens facility near boston:
[url]http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=r2w0m190zknb&style=o&lvl=2&scene=167005[/url]
Also, if driving a subaru, i find that doing a pagan rain dance the night before an event can have a significant impact on your pax!
| KC | 07-20-2006 08:42 AM |
[QUOTE=fastfreddy]Here's something a few of you might want to try.
Get a google satellite image of the location of the autocross.
Then, on your first walk through, jot down the cone positions on it.
Use the second run to confirm the positions and jot down and pacenote like information like where to cut, where to caution etc.
Then sit in air conditioned luxury and read over the course for a bit.
I find that my rate of hitting cones had dropped tremendously since using this.
MSN-live have a cool birds eye view feature which is ideal for an autocross perspective of the course.
For eaxmple here is the devens facility near boston:
[url]http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=r2w0m190zknb&style=o&lvl=2&scene=167005[/url]
Also, if driving a subaru, i find that doing a pagan rain dance the night before an event can have a significant impact on your pax![/QUOTE]
Freddy! Where did you get that???
I ask because that looks like the Solo School taken a few years ago before we started doing the loop... [I]in progress![/I].
In the paddock, on the left side, that could be my silver wagon . If you go all the way to the right, you can see where the skidpad was going on. I know it's an event, because there's a car at the gate where we enter for waivers.
Nice find!!! :)
Get a google satellite image of the location of the autocross.
Then, on your first walk through, jot down the cone positions on it.
Use the second run to confirm the positions and jot down and pacenote like information like where to cut, where to caution etc.
Then sit in air conditioned luxury and read over the course for a bit.
I find that my rate of hitting cones had dropped tremendously since using this.
MSN-live have a cool birds eye view feature which is ideal for an autocross perspective of the course.
For eaxmple here is the devens facility near boston:
[url]http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=r2w0m190zknb&style=o&lvl=2&scene=167005[/url]
Also, if driving a subaru, i find that doing a pagan rain dance the night before an event can have a significant impact on your pax![/QUOTE]
Freddy! Where did you get that???
I ask because that looks like the Solo School taken a few years ago before we started doing the loop... [I]in progress![/I].
In the paddock, on the left side, that could be my silver wagon . If you go all the way to the right, you can see where the skidpad was going on. I know it's an event, because there's a car at the gate where we enter for waivers.
Nice find!!! :)
| fastfreddy | 07-20-2006 08:48 AM |
Yip - I was guessing an autocross was in progress by the way everything was parked.
You can actually see a car on course if you zoom in!
These photos are normally a few years old, so it's quite possible it's you in your pre rx8 days.
Print it out and start drawing dots in for cones as you walk the course. Saves you a bit of walking!
You can actually see a car on course if you zoom in!
These photos are normally a few years old, so it's quite possible it's you in your pre rx8 days.
Print it out and start drawing dots in for cones as you walk the course. Saves you a bit of walking!
| solo-x | 07-20-2006 10:47 AM |
well, we know it's a few years ago because in the last 2yrs they built a fence across the runway just the right of where the two runways cross. there are now a couple hundred retired police cruisers over there and we no longer use that area for courses.
kc, was that the school you flat spotted some azenis on the wrx at when you disconnected the abs fuse?
kc, was that the school you flat spotted some azenis on the wrx at when you disconnected the abs fuse?
| KC | 07-20-2006 10:51 AM |
[QUOTE=solo-x]well, we know it's a few years ago because in the last 2yrs they built a fence across the runway just the right of where the two runways cross. there are now a couple hundred retired police cruisers over there and we no longer use that area for courses.
kc, was that the school you flat spotted some azenis on the wrx at when you disconnected the abs fuse?[/QUOTE]
Nope, I did that at the Evo School they had at Weymouth.
I *think* this is the old Gendron/NER solo school before it was moved to NHIS.
--kC
kc, was that the school you flat spotted some azenis on the wrx at when you disconnected the abs fuse?[/QUOTE]
Nope, I did that at the Evo School they had at Weymouth.
I *think* this is the old Gendron/NER solo school before it was moved to NHIS.
--kC
| theicewall | 07-20-2006 04:02 PM |
... that's pretty cool. I never thought to use satallite images to map a parking lot, lol.
| DrBiggly | 07-20-2006 05:26 PM |
I don't find that walking repeatedly helps me anymore (although it used to.) I found that one slow walk and playing the course back in my head via chunks as if I were doing a Simon helps much more. So I go walk the course, hopefully without anyone around or talking to anyone. Then if I go walk again, I make sure to talk about it or point out elements to folks that I'm walking with rather than talk and socialize. If I talk and socialize on subsequent walks, it causes confusion and I don't remember as much.
Looking ahead is the root of almost every autox evil. Braking and looking ahead are what I focus on for novices and more intermediate folks alike when I'm instructing.
I also don't find a passenger in the car terribly distracting unless it's a first run. I also don't think it slows me down by an appreciable amount -- couple of tenths at best. I suppose it depends on the course and where the power is coming on. If I'm on power more of the course I won't notice the weight. :)
-Biggly
Looking ahead is the root of almost every autox evil. Braking and looking ahead are what I focus on for novices and more intermediate folks alike when I'm instructing.
I also don't find a passenger in the car terribly distracting unless it's a first run. I also don't think it slows me down by an appreciable amount -- couple of tenths at best. I suppose it depends on the course and where the power is coming on. If I'm on power more of the course I won't notice the weight. :)
-Biggly
| theicewall | 07-20-2006 05:38 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]I don't find that walking repeatedly helps me anymore (although it used to.) I found that one slow walk and playing the course back in my head via chunks as if I were doing a Simon helps much more. So I go walk the course, hopefully without anyone around or talking to anyone. Then if I go walk again, I make sure to talk about it or point out elements to folks that I'm walking with rather than talk and socialize. If I talk and socialize on subsequent walks, it causes confusion and I don't remember as much.
Looking ahead is the root of almost every autox evil. Braking and looking ahead are what I focus on for novices and more intermediate folks alike when I'm instructing.
I also don't find a passenger in the car terribly distracting unless it's a first run. I also don't think it slows me down by an appreciable amount -- couple of tenths at best. I suppose it depends on the course and where the power is coming on. If I'm on power more of the course I won't notice the weight. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
I treat it just like an international road course, in that I break it down into sections... the goal of each section is to pick the most important corners and set yourself up the best for that corner even if it means slightly sacraficing line on another corner. In autox, the corners are so quickly linked and the straights are so short that you dont gain all that much by doing this but there are times when you need to sacrifice optimal speed and line through a corner because of the next turn or two that are more important overall to your time. If you break it down into short 3-4 turn segments while you do your walk and mapping you can start to figure this out and develop your initial rhythm and line.
Looking ahead is the root of almost every autox evil. Braking and looking ahead are what I focus on for novices and more intermediate folks alike when I'm instructing.
I also don't find a passenger in the car terribly distracting unless it's a first run. I also don't think it slows me down by an appreciable amount -- couple of tenths at best. I suppose it depends on the course and where the power is coming on. If I'm on power more of the course I won't notice the weight. :)
-Biggly[/QUOTE]
I treat it just like an international road course, in that I break it down into sections... the goal of each section is to pick the most important corners and set yourself up the best for that corner even if it means slightly sacraficing line on another corner. In autox, the corners are so quickly linked and the straights are so short that you dont gain all that much by doing this but there are times when you need to sacrifice optimal speed and line through a corner because of the next turn or two that are more important overall to your time. If you break it down into short 3-4 turn segments while you do your walk and mapping you can start to figure this out and develop your initial rhythm and line.
| DrBiggly | 07-21-2006 12:48 AM |
:confused: :confused:
I wasn't asking for help. Rather I was presenting what works for [i]me[/i]. I've found through the years that I typically picked up on only a fraction of the things that my friends would give me as far as bits of advice were concerned. I used what I could and just nodded my head appreciably at the things that I knew would not be of benefit.
Hence I was presenting an alternative view. There are amazingly different ways of reaching the same goals for autox, which is one of the things that fascinates me the most. How one driver can be really aggressive and abrupt while another is smooth and the times are almost identical. Not everyone's brain works the same nor do they approach the drive around the course the same, hence my throwing out an alternative for someone who perhaps might happen upon the above post and find a tiny bit of information useful, just like I've done with the advice I have heard/read/absorbed over the years. :)
-Biggly
I wasn't asking for help. Rather I was presenting what works for [i]me[/i]. I've found through the years that I typically picked up on only a fraction of the things that my friends would give me as far as bits of advice were concerned. I used what I could and just nodded my head appreciably at the things that I knew would not be of benefit.
Hence I was presenting an alternative view. There are amazingly different ways of reaching the same goals for autox, which is one of the things that fascinates me the most. How one driver can be really aggressive and abrupt while another is smooth and the times are almost identical. Not everyone's brain works the same nor do they approach the drive around the course the same, hence my throwing out an alternative for someone who perhaps might happen upon the above post and find a tiny bit of information useful, just like I've done with the advice I have heard/read/absorbed over the years. :)
-Biggly
| theicewall | 07-21-2006 02:29 AM |
I wasnt giving you advise, I was adding to it and that's why I quoted you... just because it was related. I apologize if it sounded like I was telling you what you should do at all. You were talking about mapping out a course rather than repeatedly walking it, so I was saying that as long as you are going to map things out spacially I like to break it down, and the two work very well together.
| Storm | 07-21-2006 03:27 AM |
As mentioned earlier, walk the course more than once. In addition to just walking the course...make those walks count by imprinting the likely route in your brain. If it means walking alone or ignoring casual conversation, so be it. Most times as a beginner, the lines you think you're going to make are not where you'll end up once at speed. You can adjust for things that sneak up on you because you forgot or you just came into them quicker than you thought. Make mental notes of key cones and elements and don't pay too much attention to the useless cones.
Be smooth on your inputs, look well ahead and just drive. If you're the type of person that has to analyze everything...do it before and after you run. DURING the run...just drive. You can replay the run afterwords to think of areas to improve and watch others go thru tricky parts of the course to get another perspective.
Ride with faster drivers and have them ride with you. Ask questions, listen and most of all...have fun.
Jay Storm
Be smooth on your inputs, look well ahead and just drive. If you're the type of person that has to analyze everything...do it before and after you run. DURING the run...just drive. You can replay the run afterwords to think of areas to improve and watch others go thru tricky parts of the course to get another perspective.
Ride with faster drivers and have them ride with you. Ask questions, listen and most of all...have fun.
Jay Storm
| KC | 07-21-2006 07:40 AM |
All I ever needed to know about doing a run can be summed up in one line...
Go that way... real fast. When you see a cone... turn. :devil:
--kC
Go that way... real fast. When you see a cone... turn. :devil:
--kC
| makofoto | 07-21-2006 10:30 AM |
If things are happening "too fast," if you are bring surprised by elements, it means you don't know the course and/or you aren't looking ahead enough. With the lack of straights in AX, you have to be turning your head to look ahead, ie. looking across corners to see their exits. If you aren't looking at the exit when you come up to a corner, you don't know where to enter the corner, where to perfectly apex, how early you can open up your steering lock and how early you can get on the power.
| Storm | 07-21-2006 02:04 PM |
^^^adding on to this, if you're finding yourself behind the course and reacting...try talking yourself through it as if you were the codriver or describing it to a passenger. It'll force you to think further ahead, which will automatically make you look further ahead.....which will allow you to anticipate elements instead of react to them.
Jay Storm
Jay Storm
| pittspilot | 07-23-2006 02:25 PM |
Thanks for the replies folks.
| Vampyr | 07-24-2006 12:51 PM |
I was wondering... can you videotape the course as you are walking it?!
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?
| KC | 07-24-2006 12:56 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I was wondering... can you videotape the course as you are walking it?!
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?[/QUOTE]
Depends on the region. Some allow it, some don't.
--kC
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?[/QUOTE]
Depends on the region. Some allow it, some don't.
--kC
| crystalhelix | 07-24-2006 01:31 PM |
[QUOTE=Vampyr]I was wondering... can you videotape the course as you are walking it?!
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?[/QUOTE]
IMHO it would be better to review the course in your head trying to remember key cones..
you'll spend a lot of time trying to get the video taping thing to work but what if you have to run first heat and the whole time you spend playing with a camera...
my 0.02 - get focused. ;)
I thought it might help to play the tape in fast forward to see what the course would look like while driving?[/QUOTE]
IMHO it would be better to review the course in your head trying to remember key cones..
you'll spend a lot of time trying to get the video taping thing to work but what if you have to run first heat and the whole time you spend playing with a camera...
my 0.02 - get focused. ;)
| makofoto | 07-24-2006 11:46 PM |
I agree ... but we do have a fellow who is experimenting with taping the course walk with a digi still camera that does video clips ... attached to one of those wheeled measuring devices ... at approx. drivers heights. He then transfers the file to a lap top ... where he can play it back ... speed up.
| Storm | 07-25-2006 02:48 AM |
^^^There's usually some important things going on between the time you walk and when you run...especially if you run in the first heat. It would help if you run late in the day and have plenty of time to get the footage to the point where it can be viewed at fast speed, slo-mo, etc....
Jay
Jay
| Zoinks | 07-25-2006 09:01 AM |
[quote=Carroll Smith]
For untold millennia primitive hunters have ritually pre-enacted the hunt. Prior to take off for every flight the Blue Angels visualize, together, the entire coming routine - they call it the "Zen flight". This is what olympic divers and gymnasts are doing just before they explode.
One of my favorite racing drivers, Price Cobb, can sit in a motel room chair and, with appropriate motions of hands and feet, (sound effects, also) come within a couple tenths of his actual lap times. Price is not alone in this ability - most of the good ones do it.
...
The human mind is a wondrous thing - serious visualization is far better and more realistic than the most sophisticated video games. Every normal person has the basic ability to visualize - but you have to work at it in order to develop the technique to the point where it becomes a useful tool. To begin with, you should start with a circuit and a car that you know well. Visualization, at least for the racing driver, is a solitary exercise.
...
I think that every track that he has ever driven is equally inscribed on Price's personal RAM. I can still remember, in detail, tracks and laps that I haven't driven in thirty years. This is true of every front line professional driver - it has to be. The Senna stories in this regard are endless.
...
In order to visualize a race track, it is necessary to know the race track. Try to arrive at each race a day early. When you first get to the track, do several laps in a street car, on an ATV, on a bicycle or on foot. Do enough laps so that the track becomes imprinted on your brain and begins to "flow" for you. It helps if you can view the track from approximately the eye level that you will have in the race car. Then, in the transporter, the rent car or in your motel room, start visualizing. It will take a while to develop the technique. It will be worth it.
Drive To Win, section 3, page 4.
[/quote]
This is probably the most useful advice I've ever gotten from a driving book. One of the biggest advances I've ever personally made in autocross was when I realized that if I can't close my eyes and drive the entire course in my head from memory, making note of key cones and the general flow of the thing, it means I'm NOT DONE WALKING IT! I've also realized that my ability to do this has gotten better the more I've tried. It used to be that if I walked a 60-70 second course three times I'd be lucky to remember a few big chunks of it. Now after the second walk through I've often gotten it all down solid. Not all the time, but I'm getting better. The image of the courses in my head keeps getting clearer as well, and I can remember courses much longer after I've driven them... when I was just starting I'd barely be able to remember the course the next day.
I'll keep replaying the course in my head during the next couple hours while I'm waiting. If I do this well it can save me a bit when I lapse in my looking ahead - I might not look, but I already know what's coming.
The other big part of this is the debrief lap after each run. For me at least the last thing I want to do after a run is sit still - I want to wet down the tires, check air pressures, see how everyone's doing, etc. But I've been forcing myself to park the car in grid and replay my last run in my head - I always screw something up, and if I can isolate my big mistakes in my head I'm much less likely to make them again next time. (I make different ones)
For untold millennia primitive hunters have ritually pre-enacted the hunt. Prior to take off for every flight the Blue Angels visualize, together, the entire coming routine - they call it the "Zen flight". This is what olympic divers and gymnasts are doing just before they explode.
One of my favorite racing drivers, Price Cobb, can sit in a motel room chair and, with appropriate motions of hands and feet, (sound effects, also) come within a couple tenths of his actual lap times. Price is not alone in this ability - most of the good ones do it.
...
The human mind is a wondrous thing - serious visualization is far better and more realistic than the most sophisticated video games. Every normal person has the basic ability to visualize - but you have to work at it in order to develop the technique to the point where it becomes a useful tool. To begin with, you should start with a circuit and a car that you know well. Visualization, at least for the racing driver, is a solitary exercise.
...
I think that every track that he has ever driven is equally inscribed on Price's personal RAM. I can still remember, in detail, tracks and laps that I haven't driven in thirty years. This is true of every front line professional driver - it has to be. The Senna stories in this regard are endless.
...
In order to visualize a race track, it is necessary to know the race track. Try to arrive at each race a day early. When you first get to the track, do several laps in a street car, on an ATV, on a bicycle or on foot. Do enough laps so that the track becomes imprinted on your brain and begins to "flow" for you. It helps if you can view the track from approximately the eye level that you will have in the race car. Then, in the transporter, the rent car or in your motel room, start visualizing. It will take a while to develop the technique. It will be worth it.
Drive To Win, section 3, page 4.
[/quote]
This is probably the most useful advice I've ever gotten from a driving book. One of the biggest advances I've ever personally made in autocross was when I realized that if I can't close my eyes and drive the entire course in my head from memory, making note of key cones and the general flow of the thing, it means I'm NOT DONE WALKING IT! I've also realized that my ability to do this has gotten better the more I've tried. It used to be that if I walked a 60-70 second course three times I'd be lucky to remember a few big chunks of it. Now after the second walk through I've often gotten it all down solid. Not all the time, but I'm getting better. The image of the courses in my head keeps getting clearer as well, and I can remember courses much longer after I've driven them... when I was just starting I'd barely be able to remember the course the next day.
I'll keep replaying the course in my head during the next couple hours while I'm waiting. If I do this well it can save me a bit when I lapse in my looking ahead - I might not look, but I already know what's coming.
The other big part of this is the debrief lap after each run. For me at least the last thing I want to do after a run is sit still - I want to wet down the tires, check air pressures, see how everyone's doing, etc. But I've been forcing myself to park the car in grid and replay my last run in my head - I always screw something up, and if I can isolate my big mistakes in my head I'm much less likely to make them again next time. (I make different ones)
| SWortham | 08-01-2006 02:03 PM |
^ I haven't read that before, but that's really good advice. That's what I did at an autocross last Sunday. I figured it would be good to do. I walked the course twice. And then while I was in grid I watched a couple cars race before me. Then in the comfort of my A/C I sat in my car with my eyes closed and visualized the course as if I was driving it.
When it came time to make my run I knew the course pretty well. Usually my 1st run is very much a learning lap. But this time my 1st run turned out to be my fastest.
I'll definitely do that every time from now on. It's a good thing to do while you're waiting in grid. And if I get lost while visualizing the course, then I'll just step out of the car and walk up to get a better view of it. Then step back in the car and try visualizing it again.
EDIT -- One thing to note is that when I visualized the course, I visualized it in fast forward and not in too much detail. But if I can visualize it at actual speed with steering input, braking zones, and the works, that'll be a whole 'notha level. I'll try not to get carried away and try to actually drive the course with my eyes closed though. ;)
When it came time to make my run I knew the course pretty well. Usually my 1st run is very much a learning lap. But this time my 1st run turned out to be my fastest.
I'll definitely do that every time from now on. It's a good thing to do while you're waiting in grid. And if I get lost while visualizing the course, then I'll just step out of the car and walk up to get a better view of it. Then step back in the car and try visualizing it again.
EDIT -- One thing to note is that when I visualized the course, I visualized it in fast forward and not in too much detail. But if I can visualize it at actual speed with steering input, braking zones, and the works, that'll be a whole 'notha level. I'll try not to get carried away and try to actually drive the course with my eyes closed though. ;)
| PKer | 08-01-2006 02:28 PM |
Talk to the top drivers AFTER they have competed. Ask them about the course, which parts were tricky, where you can gain time, where you can lose time if you get it wrong etc.
| dcpusher | 08-01-2006 03:43 PM |
[QUOTE=theicewall]there is nothing worse than having your trailbrake turn into an oh crap I need to really brake and then a spin and an off course.[/QUOTE]
especially when you decide to do it on your final runs and over heat your tires ruining your times for that event.
especially when you decide to do it on your final runs and over heat your tires ruining your times for that event.
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét