| AUTOwrXER | 07-20-2005 06:00 PM |
Just to add to the above, the real benefit from boost de-regulation will be significant midrange torque improvements. Basically we will have a more useable third gear at national events. In many cases it may be a race to get it into third and leave it there, rather than bouncing back and forth between second and third.
| trhoppe | 07-20-2005 06:16 PM |
[quote]I think 370 whp is where we will wind up in BSP with boost de-regulated. [/quote]
[quote]the real benefit from boost de-regulation will be significant midrange torque improvements.[/quote] 100% agree. The top end (and 370whp number) can be done in ESP with "grey area mods" but the midrange torque will be the "benefiter" of boost deregulations.
-Tom
[quote]the real benefit from boost de-regulation will be significant midrange torque improvements.[/quote] 100% agree. The top end (and 370whp number) can be done in ESP with "grey area mods" but the midrange torque will be the "benefiter" of boost deregulations.
-Tom
| kwh29 | 07-20-2005 07:21 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]100% agree. The top end (and 370whp number) can be done in ESP with "grey area mods" but the midrange torque will be the "benefiter" of boost deregulations.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Hear hear! As I've said before, those who think turbo cars can magically overcome the laws of physics (ie compressor efficiency) are the only ones spouting such incredibly high peak HP numbers. Midrange torque could, of course, be awesome. Witness the Prodrive group-N torque numbers on their ECU... I've heard numbers of over 400 ft-lb even with the required restrictor plate!
Anyway, I've got a question for those who know: I thought the intake tract from the turbo to the intake port was required to be stock, with the exception of the intercooler? I thought that the free intake was only on non-turbo cars in SP?
--Kevin H.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
Hear hear! As I've said before, those who think turbo cars can magically overcome the laws of physics (ie compressor efficiency) are the only ones spouting such incredibly high peak HP numbers. Midrange torque could, of course, be awesome. Witness the Prodrive group-N torque numbers on their ECU... I've heard numbers of over 400 ft-lb even with the required restrictor plate!
Anyway, I've got a question for those who know: I thought the intake tract from the turbo to the intake port was required to be stock, with the exception of the intercooler? I thought that the free intake was only on non-turbo cars in SP?
--Kevin H.
| crystalhelix | 07-20-2005 08:00 PM |
Modifications of the intake up to the turbo inlet is allowed. And I imagine that since the intercooler can be relocated we are free before and after the turbo except you would have to still use the stock bypass valve somehow.
J
J
| Templar | 07-20-2005 09:21 PM |
If the deregulation of boost comes to pass, and the STI and EVO are moved to BSP, then you can kiss the power supremacy of the STI goodbye. The stock TD06H-18g turbo on the EVO is capable of a ton more power than the tiny little VF39. There are stock turbo Evos running around with 450 to the ground and that is not possible on a VF39, regardless of the displacement advantage.
| makofoto | 07-20-2005 10:06 PM |
... with permission from Doug Gill:
Hi, Mako,
I don't think there's much difference in using ice to cool engine parts and water to cool tires or cooling off a radiator because . Also, if someone was having mechanical difficulties, I believe they should be allowed to work on their car - kind of like a pit stop in wheel-to-wheel racing. I personally don't want to regulate what can be done in grid because where would the "line" be? If a car is overheating, who is going to decide if the car is really overheating or just hotter than usual - the owner or an official? So what can be done in grid is very open...
3.3.3.B.7 Inspection Requirements of the Solo Rules (page 27) begins, "No excessive fuel, oil, water or brake fluid leaks should be observed when the engine is running." Now while this is referring to tech inspection before the car is on course, there are other things that affect vehicle eligibility after tech.
5.5 (page 38) starts, "The Chief Technical Inspector shall be responsible for ascertaining that the vehicles comply with the requirements of the SIIR and the Supplementary Regulations." This doesn't limit the Chief Tech Inspector to just tech before the event. Also, the Chief of Tech should, "Conduct inspections of automobiles at the request of the Chief Steward." And, "Report to the Chief Steward any automobiles that he finds do not conform with requirements of the SIIR or the Supplementary
Regulations." So a competitor and/or the Chief of Tech could notify the Chief Steward or Event Chairperson about a car that is not meeting 3.3.3.B. It can very well be a safety issue if a car is leaking a fluid on course.
I don't think 3.3.3.B.7 allows a/c condensation or intercooler spray liquids - it says, "No excessive...water...leaks..." Now what's excessive? That depends on the event officials and it can vary. I would think a puddle of any size would be of concern.
If it's OE on the car, it's OK for use during a run. It just shouldn't leak any liquids... ;) (ie. EVO & STI IC sprayers ... Mako)
You should be able to use dry ice in grid. I don't see a difference between that and spraying water on tires or replacing a water pump belt that came off.
Hope this helps.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
PO Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055
Hi, Mako,
I don't think there's much difference in using ice to cool engine parts and water to cool tires or cooling off a radiator because . Also, if someone was having mechanical difficulties, I believe they should be allowed to work on their car - kind of like a pit stop in wheel-to-wheel racing. I personally don't want to regulate what can be done in grid because where would the "line" be? If a car is overheating, who is going to decide if the car is really overheating or just hotter than usual - the owner or an official? So what can be done in grid is very open...
3.3.3.B.7 Inspection Requirements of the Solo Rules (page 27) begins, "No excessive fuel, oil, water or brake fluid leaks should be observed when the engine is running." Now while this is referring to tech inspection before the car is on course, there are other things that affect vehicle eligibility after tech.
5.5 (page 38) starts, "The Chief Technical Inspector shall be responsible for ascertaining that the vehicles comply with the requirements of the SIIR and the Supplementary Regulations." This doesn't limit the Chief Tech Inspector to just tech before the event. Also, the Chief of Tech should, "Conduct inspections of automobiles at the request of the Chief Steward." And, "Report to the Chief Steward any automobiles that he finds do not conform with requirements of the SIIR or the Supplementary
Regulations." So a competitor and/or the Chief of Tech could notify the Chief Steward or Event Chairperson about a car that is not meeting 3.3.3.B. It can very well be a safety issue if a car is leaking a fluid on course.
I don't think 3.3.3.B.7 allows a/c condensation or intercooler spray liquids - it says, "No excessive...water...leaks..." Now what's excessive? That depends on the event officials and it can vary. I would think a puddle of any size would be of concern.
If it's OE on the car, it's OK for use during a run. It just shouldn't leak any liquids... ;) (ie. EVO & STI IC sprayers ... Mako)
You should be able to use dry ice in grid. I don't see a difference between that and spraying water on tires or replacing a water pump belt that came off.
Hope this helps.
- Doug
Doug Gill
SCCA Technical Manager, Solo
PO Box 19400
Topeka, KS 66619-0400
1-800-770-2055
| makofoto | 07-20-2005 10:17 PM |
... so the Event Chairmen for this weekends local Champ AX has banned Dry Ice ... as being potentially dangerous! :-( "Someone might get burned."
I use to use finely chopped up, pea-size dry ice on my STI IC when I was doing drag racing ... even before I had all my mods ... and it was the only time I could chirp my WRX (Azenis) tires in 2nd. Super chilling the old heat sink really does work!
My buddy has a 275 hp to the wheels twin charged Mini Cooper. The Intercooler has always been an issue. We're on our fourth different model now. We used a water/air one for a while ... but it couldn't keep up during AX's ... because ... the radiator was too small (not much space in a Mini) ... but mainly because the water reservoir was too small. Someone calculated that we needed something like five gallons of water in the system. Five gallons weighs a LOT!
The owner is now using a larger air/air IC with a water sprayer ... but the problem with the Mini is that there isn't enough room for a large enough IC ... and have room for enough air coming in through the oem scoop ... and since the IC literally sits on top of the engine ... there is barely any room for the air to flow through and out of the bottom of the IC.
Another friend just added a CO2 cryo sprayer to his STI ... to play with locally in STU. He's only suppose to use it before he gets on course. Even locally they might make him remove the CO2 bottle. He's new and not yet competitive ... so we are hoping he can do a few events with it as an experiment.
I use to use finely chopped up, pea-size dry ice on my STI IC when I was doing drag racing ... even before I had all my mods ... and it was the only time I could chirp my WRX (Azenis) tires in 2nd. Super chilling the old heat sink really does work!
My buddy has a 275 hp to the wheels twin charged Mini Cooper. The Intercooler has always been an issue. We're on our fourth different model now. We used a water/air one for a while ... but it couldn't keep up during AX's ... because ... the radiator was too small (not much space in a Mini) ... but mainly because the water reservoir was too small. Someone calculated that we needed something like five gallons of water in the system. Five gallons weighs a LOT!
The owner is now using a larger air/air IC with a water sprayer ... but the problem with the Mini is that there isn't enough room for a large enough IC ... and have room for enough air coming in through the oem scoop ... and since the IC literally sits on top of the engine ... there is barely any room for the air to flow through and out of the bottom of the IC.
Another friend just added a CO2 cryo sprayer to his STI ... to play with locally in STU. He's only suppose to use it before he gets on course. Even locally they might make him remove the CO2 bottle. He's new and not yet competitive ... so we are hoping he can do a few events with it as an experiment.
| ChrisW | 07-20-2005 11:38 PM |
[QUOTE=Templar]If the deregulation of boost comes to pass, and the STI and EVO are moved to BSP, then you can kiss the power supremacy of the STI goodbye. The stock TD06H-18g turbo on the EVO is capable of a ton more power than the tiny little VF39. There are stock turbo Evos running around with 450 to the ground and that is not possible on a VF39, regardless of the displacement advantage.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you you can get 450 to the wheels on the stock turbo, not without proper cams as the cam gears won't cut it. I would be willing to entertain over 350whp, but that is still outside the envelope of the stock turbo and turns it into a heat pump.
I don't think you you can get 450 to the wheels on the stock turbo, not without proper cams as the cam gears won't cut it. I would be willing to entertain over 350whp, but that is still outside the envelope of the stock turbo and turns it into a heat pump.
| crystalhelix | 07-21-2005 08:51 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisW]I don't think you you can get 450 to the wheels on the stock turbo, not without proper cams as the cam gears won't cut it. I would be willing to entertain over 350whp, but that is still outside the envelope of the stock turbo and turns it into a heat pump.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking the same thing.
Yeah, a fellow EVO buddy has about 330 whp and I think he needed cams. He also has a crap-load of lag it seems, the car is slow in the low RPM but then shoots off like a bat out of hell.
J
I was thinking the same thing.
Yeah, a fellow EVO buddy has about 330 whp and I think he needed cams. He also has a crap-load of lag it seems, the car is slow in the low RPM but then shoots off like a bat out of hell.
J
| AUTOwrXER | 07-25-2005 03:09 PM |
I've been hearing rumors of stock-turbo EVOs over 400 HP to the ground, but I have yet to see dyno charts on evolutionm.net to back it up (without other non-SP legal mods).
| trhoppe | 07-25-2005 03:16 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]I've been hearing rumors of stock-turbo EVOs over 400 HP to the ground, but I have yet to see dyno charts on evolutionm.net to back it up (without other non-SP legal mods).[/QUOTE]
Oh yea, if you can change cams, all day long. TopSpeed was at 466whp with Giovanni's EVO on the stock turbo, but that was with head studs, cams, and tons of boost.
-Tom
Oh yea, if you can change cams, all day long. TopSpeed was at 466whp with Giovanni's EVO on the stock turbo, but that was with head studs, cams, and tons of boost.
-Tom
| AUTOwrXER | 07-26-2005 10:30 AM |
I'm assuming that was with different cams altogether rather than just adjustable cam gears, correct? The adjustments may come, but open cams are not on the table for SP...
| Templar | 07-26-2005 10:34 AM |
Actually, TopSpeed had Giovanni's Evo in excess of 400 whp with just adjustable cam gears...then they put the big cams in.
| Tremec | 07-26-2005 10:46 AM |
A 2 door RS is the only one ive seen go into the 2700# range! No radio /a/c and 2 racing seats.
| dwx | 07-26-2005 11:06 AM |
A STI with a reflash running 18psi or so has amazing throttle response. The turbo spools up pretty much instantly. A car can make all the HP in the world but the throttle response and acceleration are what help in autocrosses. Maybe in a drag race or on a road course the EVO turbo running unlimited boost would be a big advantage, but I just don't think that's the case in autocross.
| AUTOwrXER | 07-26-2005 02:21 PM |
[QUOTE=Templar]Actually, TopSpeed had Giovanni's Evo in excess of 400 whp with just adjustable cam gears...then they put the big cams in.[/QUOTE]
Anything power-wise non SP legal (with the exception of boost)?
Anything power-wise non SP legal (with the exception of boost)?
| trhoppe | 07-26-2005 02:27 PM |
I don't believe so.
FMIC, AEM EMS, exhaust, intake, C16 and I guess cam gears :)
-Tom
FMIC, AEM EMS, exhaust, intake, C16 and I guess cam gears :)
-Tom
| SlideWRX | 07-26-2005 02:59 PM |
What exactly is the proposed rules change? Any kind of boost control, ECU reflash, full standalone, etc.? Since STX/U apparently allows reflash/piggyback, while SP was non-boost standalone, then SM is boost standalone.
Tom
Tom
| angryfist | 07-26-2005 03:51 PM |
the proposed rules change is for unlimited boost ie. any standalone with boost control in SP.
| makofoto | 07-26-2005 03:56 PM |
"unlimited boost" ... someone is going to love all those busted engines when the Newbies go nuts with their boost controllers. :p
A fellow with a boost controller on his STI came by one of our AX's ... he had been over at the drag races next door at CA Spdwy. He asked me how much power I had. I said about 300 to the crank. He said ... oh ... I've got over 400! You could tell he just knew he was going to kill me!
It was a small event so we let him in late ... he was running in the high 50's, I was down into the 52's. He was almost always threatening to spin out on corner exit. He came over to me wondering why he wasn't faster.
I gave him a ride ... and he understood. I told him to turn down his boost and to let me give him a ride in his car. I immediately got down into the 54's ... gave him some pointers ... and told him to get to work. He did get into the 55's. I told him to come back to our next AX. Last time I saw him he was in a (bad) drift demo for a Dub event. :lol:
A fellow with a boost controller on his STI came by one of our AX's ... he had been over at the drag races next door at CA Spdwy. He asked me how much power I had. I said about 300 to the crank. He said ... oh ... I've got over 400! You could tell he just knew he was going to kill me!
It was a small event so we let him in late ... he was running in the high 50's, I was down into the 52's. He was almost always threatening to spin out on corner exit. He came over to me wondering why he wasn't faster.
I gave him a ride ... and he understood. I told him to turn down his boost and to let me give him a ride in his car. I immediately got down into the 54's ... gave him some pointers ... and told him to get to work. He did get into the 55's. I told him to come back to our next AX. Last time I saw him he was in a (bad) drift demo for a Dub event. :lol:
| AUTOwrXER | 07-26-2005 05:15 PM |
[QUOTE=angryfist]the proposed rules change is for unlimited boost ie. any standalone with boost control in SP.[/QUOTE]
Standalone still would not be legal as our ECU controls some functions that have no mechanical allowance.
Standalone still would not be legal as our ECU controls some functions that have no mechanical allowance.
| ratt_finkel | 07-26-2005 05:22 PM |
[QUOTE=makofoto]
I gave him a ride ... and he understood. I told him to turn down his boost and to let me give him a ride in his car. I immediately got down into the 54's ... gave him some pointers ... and told him to get to work. He did get into the 55's. I told him to come back to our next AX. Last time I saw him he was in a (bad) drift demo for a Dub event. :lol:[/QUOTE]
haha, awesome story!
I gave him a ride ... and he understood. I told him to turn down his boost and to let me give him a ride in his car. I immediately got down into the 54's ... gave him some pointers ... and told him to get to work. He did get into the 55's. I told him to come back to our next AX. Last time I saw him he was in a (bad) drift demo for a Dub event. :lol:[/QUOTE]
haha, awesome story!
| trhoppe | 07-26-2005 05:25 PM |
[QUOTE=AUTOwrXER]Standalone still would not be legal as our ECU controls some functions that have no mechanical allowance.[/QUOTE]
For *us* yes, but the EVOs could do standalones.
-Tom
PS. Thanks for those Koni charts!
For *us* yes, but the EVOs could do standalones.
-Tom
PS. Thanks for those Koni charts!
| funsti | 07-26-2005 06:05 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]For *us* yes, but the EVOs could do standalones.[/QUOTE]
*Grumble* *Grumble*
As if the Evo's didn't already have enough of a power advantage in street touring and street prepared with their bigger turbos and FMICs :furious:.
Hmm, on the bright side the same type of thing I think Joel is talking about (AVCS control) is in the Evo MR (MIVEC) and also the new 06 Evos right? Still, a standalone is nice but nothing compared to the advantage of a larger stock turbo and FMIC.
Isn't it true that Evos can hit 350whp on pump gas (-certainly- on 100 octane) with just TBE and ECU?
*Grumble* *Grumble*
As if the Evo's didn't already have enough of a power advantage in street touring and street prepared with their bigger turbos and FMICs :furious:.
Hmm, on the bright side the same type of thing I think Joel is talking about (AVCS control) is in the Evo MR (MIVEC) and also the new 06 Evos right? Still, a standalone is nice but nothing compared to the advantage of a larger stock turbo and FMIC.
Isn't it true that Evos can hit 350whp on pump gas (-certainly- on 100 octane) with just TBE and ECU?
| SlideWRX | 07-27-2005 02:08 PM |
[QUOTE=funsti]
Isn't it true that Evos can hit 350whp on pump gas (-certainly- on 100 octane) with just TBE and ECU?[/QUOTE]
If it's the 18G I don't see why not. Back when TurboXS was first trying them out, the DSM guys were saying they are 350 whp turbo's.
Thanks for clarifiaction on the rule. Sounds like my UTEC won't put me in SM anymore, and I could move to ESP.
Tom
Isn't it true that Evos can hit 350whp on pump gas (-certainly- on 100 octane) with just TBE and ECU?[/QUOTE]
If it's the 18G I don't see why not. Back when TurboXS was first trying them out, the DSM guys were saying they are 350 whp turbo's.
Thanks for clarifiaction on the rule. Sounds like my UTEC won't put me in SM anymore, and I could move to ESP.
Tom
| DrBiggly | 07-27-2005 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE=SlideWRX]If it's the 18G I don't see why not. Back when TurboXS was first trying them out, the DSM guys were saying they are 350 whp turbo's.
Thanks for clarifiaction on the rule. Sounds like my UTEC won't put me in SM anymore, and I could move to ESP.
Tom[/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps next year but don't jump the gun just yet; the ruleset for SP isn't finalized yet for next year. Most of the things mentioned are technically still "proposals." :)
-Biggly
Thanks for clarifiaction on the rule. Sounds like my UTEC won't put me in SM anymore, and I could move to ESP.
Tom[/QUOTE]
Well, perhaps next year but don't jump the gun just yet; the ruleset for SP isn't finalized yet for next year. Most of the things mentioned are technically still "proposals." :)
-Biggly
| AUTOwrXER | 07-27-2005 06:49 PM |
That's right. They are seeking member comment on the proposed rule changes. If you would like to see boost de-regulated in SP, write a letter to [email][email�protected][/email]
| priscilla ls1 | 07-28-2005 07:06 AM |
cool.....
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