| infantsam | 08-07-2005 12:33 AM |
STi's ran away with T2 today at Pocono
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It was a great day for a race at Pocono today. Not too hot. The race in T2 though wasn't even close. My rookie opinion is that the STi is tough to class. T1 is for Vettes and Vipers who are already lobbying for more horsepower - (no restrictor) and the V8 domestics look to be just too old school for the STi. The STi's were run by a very well funded team.
It was cool to hear the turbo whistle amongst the grumbling V8 F-bodies and shrieking but slower SSB and SSC Miatas and Civics.
An SRT-4 was out there in T2 as well but he didn't look competitive.
It was cool to hear the turbo whistle amongst the grumbling V8 F-bodies and shrieking but slower SSB and SSC Miatas and Civics.
An SRT-4 was out there in T2 as well but he didn't look competitive.
| speeds foe | 08-07-2005 12:45 AM |
Pics or video?
| infantsam | 08-07-2005 12:49 AM |
No help there sorry - was crewing for a friend in a Mustang Cobra in T2 (the only one in the country - he is stubborn) Talk about brake problems - WOW! You should have seen the pos PBR caliper open up.....
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 08-07-2005 01:09 AM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]Talk about brake problems - WOW! You should have seen the pos PBR caliper open up.....[/QUOTE]
Hello,
Of course PBRs, known for being cheap, aren't the best solution! Sounds like StopTech Brakes are needed :)
Joel
Hello,
Of course PBRs, known for being cheap, aren't the best solution! Sounds like StopTech Brakes are needed :)
Joel
| infantsam | 08-07-2005 01:16 AM |
T2 ...calipers aren't open
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 08-07-2005 01:22 AM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]T2 ...calipers aren't open[/QUOTE]
Hello,
Sometimes, racing sucks :p
Joel, thinking about the fact that I have to remove my more-reliable-than-stock swaybar mounts and replace them with stock-often-break mounts for my Spec Miata build :p
Hello,
Sometimes, racing sucks :p
Joel, thinking about the fact that I have to remove my more-reliable-than-stock swaybar mounts and replace them with stock-often-break mounts for my Spec Miata build :p
| kfoote | 08-08-2005 12:49 PM |
I was in that race, running very slowly at the back (#64 SSB Miata, the only red one there). Having a 98k mile old original stock engine sucks, especially at a HP track like Pocono. I did get what was probebly the second best start of my life on Saturday, though.
The STi's have been very fast all year, though I'm a bit surprised that they were as fast as they were at Pocono. I thought the Camaros and Firebirds would have been faster, with it being as much of a HP track as it is (though I believe one won on Sunday).
The STi's have about the best brakes in the class, which is a major problem for the Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, and from what I saw being out there, the SRT-4's as well. I've been lapped by most of these guys throughout the corse of the season, and have a fairly good idea of where their stronger and weaker points are.
Looking to figure out how to afford a new engine for the Runoffs,
kfoote
The STi's have been very fast all year, though I'm a bit surprised that they were as fast as they were at Pocono. I thought the Camaros and Firebirds would have been faster, with it being as much of a HP track as it is (though I believe one won on Sunday).
The STi's have about the best brakes in the class, which is a major problem for the Camaros, Firebirds, Mustangs, and from what I saw being out there, the SRT-4's as well. I've been lapped by most of these guys throughout the corse of the season, and have a fairly good idea of where their stronger and weaker points are.
Looking to figure out how to afford a new engine for the Runoffs,
kfoote
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 12:57 PM |
It looked to me as if the STi's pulled away from the F-bodies. Similar power but lighter - and better traction exiting sharp turns??
I'd bet it's pretty easy to get more HP w/ the turbo motor too. That team is well funded.
I don't know the politics of T2 - but I'm sure a lot of emails are flying if the STi's dominate.
I'd bet it's pretty easy to get more HP w/ the turbo motor too. That team is well funded.
I don't know the politics of T2 - but I'm sure a lot of emails are flying if the STi's dominate.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 01:03 PM |
I was told that the STis will be getting a restrictor for T2 next year. I can see that. I believe that the Subaru Motorsports team (the one you saw in Pocono) was trying to see what exactly the car could do ;)
I was under at the track record at Roebling in our T2 car before the cage went in on takeoff tires. Yea, they are fast.
-Tom
I was under at the track record at Roebling in our T2 car before the cage went in on takeoff tires. Yea, they are fast.
-Tom
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 01:13 PM |
THat will make J Lipperini happy - he runs a Mustang and can't even keep up w/ the F bodies on a HP track much less the STi's
| kfoote | 08-08-2005 01:46 PM |
The STi's launch much better coming out of the corners than the f-bodies, especially in low traction conditions, as the chicaine on the Long Pond straight was, and over bumps like the one coming on to the back straight before the tunnel turn. The F-bodies seemed to have more top end, and seemed to catch me a lot faster then the STi's from about the exit of the bowl to the end of the front straight.
I think there may have been a bit of sandbagging throughout the course of the year to avoid more restrictions (2nd and 3rd in the rain at NHIS behind a Camaro?!?!?!!?), and that the STi's will do VERY well at the runoffs.
I think there may have been a bit of sandbagging throughout the course of the year to avoid more restrictions (2nd and 3rd in the rain at NHIS behind a Camaro?!?!?!!?), and that the STi's will do VERY well at the runoffs.
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 01:53 PM |
[QUOTE=kfoote]The STi's launch much better coming out of the corners than the f-bodies, especially in low traction conditions, as the chicaine on the Long Pond straight was, and over bumps like the one coming on to the back straight before the tunnel turn. The F-bodies seemed to have more top end, and seemed to catch me a lot faster then the STi's from about the exit of the bowl to the end of the front straight.
I think there may have been a bit of sandbagging throughout the course of the year to avoid more restrictions (2nd and 3rd in the rain at NHIS behind a Camaro?!?!?!!?), and that the STi's will do VERY well at the runoffs.[/QUOTE]
Sandbagging......???? - those guys........no way :)
So more cool air (i.e. at speed) helps a ram air N/A car more than a boosted car - or else it's aerodynamics. Neither car appears very aerodynamic - but I'd assume the domestics have slightly longer legs and more torque to keep accelerating at speed - pure conjecture
Now I think I have to go to Ohio to see it.
I think there may have been a bit of sandbagging throughout the course of the year to avoid more restrictions (2nd and 3rd in the rain at NHIS behind a Camaro?!?!?!!?), and that the STi's will do VERY well at the runoffs.[/QUOTE]
Sandbagging......???? - those guys........no way :)
So more cool air (i.e. at speed) helps a ram air N/A car more than a boosted car - or else it's aerodynamics. Neither car appears very aerodynamic - but I'd assume the domestics have slightly longer legs and more torque to keep accelerating at speed - pure conjecture
Now I think I have to go to Ohio to see it.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 01:57 PM |
Yea, the runoffs at ohio should be a blast. We'll be there to watch and help :) I'm betting on one of the factory teams to pull out all the stops and take a lot. Subaru, Dodge, or Cadillac.
-Tom
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-08-2005 02:10 PM |
This is why forced induction never works in a class that isn't all forced induction.
I have been considering my STi for T-2. However, some of the current teams fielding cars are going to kill that idea. By spending a ton of time and money on the dyno they are going to make the car too dominating. The result will be a restrictor plate. The restrictor plate will now require that anyone who wants to field an STi also incur a ton of time and money on the dyno just to get back to an even playing field. So now the only ones who are going to field the STi will be those who can put the money into dealing with a restrictor plate that is only required because they went chasing after it in the first place.
I would rather see a spec reflash as the only permitted alternative tune for all forced induction cars (spec'd for each model obviously) - chasing ECU tuning with only a cat-back allowance just isn't going to be worth it for me to try and run in a restrictor plated STi.
For one thing the tune under the restrictor plate is requiring more wear and tear on the components to bring the restrictor plated car back to competitiveness. Heck at a minimum I would rather see it go more along the lines of - OEM tune/no restrictor plate and aftermarket tune/restrictor plate.
Ahh forget about it - as much as I want to see the Subarus out there - it is too difficult under SCCA club methods to run NA and FI mixed classes. If they restrictor plate the T-2 STi, I would rather just run a WRX in USTCC if they ever could get decent participation east of the Mississippi.
I have been considering my STi for T-2. However, some of the current teams fielding cars are going to kill that idea. By spending a ton of time and money on the dyno they are going to make the car too dominating. The result will be a restrictor plate. The restrictor plate will now require that anyone who wants to field an STi also incur a ton of time and money on the dyno just to get back to an even playing field. So now the only ones who are going to field the STi will be those who can put the money into dealing with a restrictor plate that is only required because they went chasing after it in the first place.
I would rather see a spec reflash as the only permitted alternative tune for all forced induction cars (spec'd for each model obviously) - chasing ECU tuning with only a cat-back allowance just isn't going to be worth it for me to try and run in a restrictor plated STi.
For one thing the tune under the restrictor plate is requiring more wear and tear on the components to bring the restrictor plated car back to competitiveness. Heck at a minimum I would rather see it go more along the lines of - OEM tune/no restrictor plate and aftermarket tune/restrictor plate.
Ahh forget about it - as much as I want to see the Subarus out there - it is too difficult under SCCA club methods to run NA and FI mixed classes. If they restrictor plate the T-2 STi, I would rather just run a WRX in USTCC if they ever could get decent participation east of the Mississippi.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 02:19 PM |
I don't think the restrictor plate will be a problem. We'll ask for some swaybars and all will be well with the world :)
Also a few extra hours on the dyno in the grand scheme of things is a very small price to pay.
-Tom
Also a few extra hours on the dyno in the grand scheme of things is a very small price to pay.
-Tom
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 02:25 PM |
Well the T2 guys drive just like you Ed so don't give up too easy.
You'd think the SCCA would see whats going on w/ the STi/EVO and even WRX/SRT-4 and perhaps make a new class or figure out how to regulate it. Guess that's wishful thinking. Boost spikes make it hard to fairly control I'd guess.
I did not like the fact that both T1 and T2 were won by money teams - and it wasn't even very close. Kinda like the Yankees - they only lose when they really eff it up.
I think I'll go beat up a girl to see how that feels.
You'd think the SCCA would see whats going on w/ the STi/EVO and even WRX/SRT-4 and perhaps make a new class or figure out how to regulate it. Guess that's wishful thinking. Boost spikes make it hard to fairly control I'd guess.
I did not like the fact that both T1 and T2 were won by money teams - and it wasn't even very close. Kinda like the Yankees - they only lose when they really eff it up.
I think I'll go beat up a girl to see how that feels.
| Dussander | 08-08-2005 03:06 PM |
ah, welcome to racing!
| kfoote | 08-08-2005 03:25 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]
I did not like the fact that both T1 and T2 were won by money teams - and it wasn't even very close. Kinda like the Yankees - they only lose when they really eff it up.
[/QUOTE]
It's not just T1/T2, racing takes $$$$. My $12,000 Miata is nowhere close to competitive against the $35,000 Miatas in SSB, or the $50,000 Z4's.
There are a lot of people spending a lot of money on club racing. Some of the setups would look more in place in an ALMS paddock than a club race for trophies.
I did not like the fact that both T1 and T2 were won by money teams - and it wasn't even very close. Kinda like the Yankees - they only lose when they really eff it up.
[/QUOTE]
It's not just T1/T2, racing takes $$$$. My $12,000 Miata is nowhere close to competitive against the $35,000 Miatas in SSB, or the $50,000 Z4's.
There are a lot of people spending a lot of money on club racing. Some of the setups would look more in place in an ALMS paddock than a club race for trophies.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 03:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Dussander]ah, welcome to racing![/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Our car will be sporting the "Spend less, drive faster" bumper sticker in 06.
-Tom
Exactly.
Our car will be sporting the "Spend less, drive faster" bumper sticker in 06.
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-08-2005 03:49 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I don't think the restrictor plate will be a problem. We'll ask for some swaybars and all will be well with the world :)
Also a few extra hours on the dyno in the grand scheme of things is a very small price to pay.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
The thing is the restrictor plate doesn't result in only a few extra hours on the dyno. Quite a bit more IMO.
The problem with restrictor plates is that it results in the absolute most amount of money possible to be spent.
If big money team spends enough time on a dyno with a blue printed and balanced motor and scores of cat back combinations to extract 360hp from the motor and the restrictor plate takes them to 330hp - the stock engine and tune will at a minimum be down to 270hp, to just get back to 300hp with the restrictor plate will require a lot more than a few extra dyno hours.
IMO, restrictor plates always increase exponentially the cost of competing.
A restrictor plate on the STi will unfortunately make the 350Z track package a much more appealing candidate to me.
And I doubt they will give you sway bars since there is no package that I know of from Subaru that would help and I don't think non make tuner parts are allowed - I think all the ones that get approved ultimately come through the performance section of the make of the car.
Ahh, it probably doesn't matter for me - sticking with my ITA car is a lot more feasible for me anyway - and it likely is providing me with the same rewarding levels of frustrating character building as a National class would. It would just be nice if they had an IT cost level that could race nationally.
Also a few extra hours on the dyno in the grand scheme of things is a very small price to pay.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
The thing is the restrictor plate doesn't result in only a few extra hours on the dyno. Quite a bit more IMO.
The problem with restrictor plates is that it results in the absolute most amount of money possible to be spent.
If big money team spends enough time on a dyno with a blue printed and balanced motor and scores of cat back combinations to extract 360hp from the motor and the restrictor plate takes them to 330hp - the stock engine and tune will at a minimum be down to 270hp, to just get back to 300hp with the restrictor plate will require a lot more than a few extra dyno hours.
IMO, restrictor plates always increase exponentially the cost of competing.
A restrictor plate on the STi will unfortunately make the 350Z track package a much more appealing candidate to me.
And I doubt they will give you sway bars since there is no package that I know of from Subaru that would help and I don't think non make tuner parts are allowed - I think all the ones that get approved ultimately come through the performance section of the make of the car.
Ahh, it probably doesn't matter for me - sticking with my ITA car is a lot more feasible for me anyway - and it likely is providing me with the same rewarding levels of frustrating character building as a National class would. It would just be nice if they had an IT cost level that could race nationally.
| Patrick Olsen | 08-08-2005 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]No help there sorry - was crewing for a friend in a Mustang Cobra in T2 (the only one in the country - he is stubborn).[/QUOTE]
Only one Cobra in T2 in the whole country? That's surprising to me. What year is his car?
[quote=infantsam]Talk about brake problems - WOW! You should have seen the pos PBR caliper open up....[/quote]
What do you mean? Did the caliper actually fail?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
Only one Cobra in T2 in the whole country? That's surprising to me. What year is his car?
[quote=infantsam]Talk about brake problems - WOW! You should have seen the pos PBR caliper open up....[/quote]
What do you mean? Did the caliper actually fail?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 04:01 PM |
[QUOTE=kfoote]It's not just T1/T2, racing takes $$$$. My $12,000 Miata is nowhere close to competitive against the $35,000 Miatas in SSB, or the $50,000 Z4's.
There are a lot of people spending a lot of money on club racing. Some of the setups would look more in place in an ALMS paddock than a club race for trophies.[/QUOTE]
Jeez.....I feel lucky to have just done a DE...
It was exciting to watch the races though - especially the GT1 monsters at the end of the long day Saturday.
Well I suppose that is what is leading to the success of EMRA/NASA/PDA etc.
There are a lot of people spending a lot of money on club racing. Some of the setups would look more in place in an ALMS paddock than a club race for trophies.[/QUOTE]
Jeez.....I feel lucky to have just done a DE...
It was exciting to watch the races though - especially the GT1 monsters at the end of the long day Saturday.
Well I suppose that is what is leading to the success of EMRA/NASA/PDA etc.
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 04:09 PM |
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]Only one Cobra in T2 in the whole country? That's surprising to me. What year is his car?[/QUOTE]
I believe it's a 95 - he just started w/ it this year. Everyone said he was crazy - (he is). He cleanly took an F body on the hairpin and it just pulled away like he wasn't there on the back straight.
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]
What do you mean? Did the caliper actually fail?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan[/QUOTE]
The PBR calipers are aluminum without any support like you see on typical fixed caliper (the bolts that 'surround' the rotor)
Gets hot, gets soft, hard on the pedal and there was like a 15 degree change in the surface that pushes on the outboard pad. Seriouslt tapered pad wear - top to bottom not front to back. It opens up like a clam shell.
I believe it's a 95 - he just started w/ it this year. Everyone said he was crazy - (he is). He cleanly took an F body on the hairpin and it just pulled away like he wasn't there on the back straight.
[QUOTE=Patrick Olsen]
What do you mean? Did the caliper actually fail?
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan[/QUOTE]
The PBR calipers are aluminum without any support like you see on typical fixed caliper (the bolts that 'surround' the rotor)
Gets hot, gets soft, hard on the pedal and there was like a 15 degree change in the surface that pushes on the outboard pad. Seriouslt tapered pad wear - top to bottom not front to back. It opens up like a clam shell.
| Jsortor | 08-08-2005 04:15 PM |
Tom,
How much do you have budgetted for next year? Dave Schotz has ended up north of 30,000$ this season in his "very affordable" Camaro. He expected to be around 20,000$
How much do you have budgetted for next year? Dave Schotz has ended up north of 30,000$ this season in his "very affordable" Camaro. He expected to be around 20,000$
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 04:23 PM |
We are budgeting $1800 a weekend for "normal expenses" excluding stuff like food, for the races within our region. $300 tow, $250 entry fee, $150 hotel, $400 tires, $200 brakes, $300 wear and tear. Thats without anything breaking or any wrecks for which there is a "contingency" budget. Thats with some tire help though ;)
[quote]And I doubt they will give you sway bars since there is no package that I know of from Subaru that would help and I don't think non make tuner parts are allowed - I think all the ones that get approved ultimately come through the performance section of the make of the car.[/quote] After speaking with the CRB, any readily available part can be asked for. For example, we will be asking for an Oil Cooler for next year that is not a subaru part. If we get a restrictor you can be damn sure that I will (and I'm sure the factory Subaru team) will be asking for some help in the handling department, as the power off the corner is the main advantage of the subaru.
turboICE - The reason that I don't understand your dyno time argument is that the *same* applies before the restrictor plate goes into effect. The top teams will make 360hp with a super built motor, while the grassroots guys will make 330hp. The seperation between them will not be greater because of the restrictor plate.
-Tom
[quote]And I doubt they will give you sway bars since there is no package that I know of from Subaru that would help and I don't think non make tuner parts are allowed - I think all the ones that get approved ultimately come through the performance section of the make of the car.[/quote] After speaking with the CRB, any readily available part can be asked for. For example, we will be asking for an Oil Cooler for next year that is not a subaru part. If we get a restrictor you can be damn sure that I will (and I'm sure the factory Subaru team) will be asking for some help in the handling department, as the power off the corner is the main advantage of the subaru.
turboICE - The reason that I don't understand your dyno time argument is that the *same* applies before the restrictor plate goes into effect. The top teams will make 360hp with a super built motor, while the grassroots guys will make 330hp. The seperation between them will not be greater because of the restrictor plate.
-Tom
| kfoote | 08-08-2005 04:27 PM |
I thought that Joel said his Mustang was an '02 or '03 in the conversation I had with him at Lime Rock where he first ran it.
I'll check the results sheet when I get home, the vast majority of the cars have the years listed.
Infantasm...Please tell me you saw the killer start I had on the outside in turns 1-2 on the first lap on Saturday. I'd like a witness :D
I was amazed at the number of mechanical failures in the GT1/2/3/AS race on Saturday. Usually it's the E/F/G/HP/GTL race that has all the attrition.
I'll check the results sheet when I get home, the vast majority of the cars have the years listed.
Infantasm...Please tell me you saw the killer start I had on the outside in turns 1-2 on the first lap on Saturday. I'd like a witness :D
I was amazed at the number of mechanical failures in the GT1/2/3/AS race on Saturday. Usually it's the E/F/G/HP/GTL race that has all the attrition.
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 04:29 PM |
Joel's mustang is a Bullit and not a Cobra :)
-Tom
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-08-2005 04:43 PM |
Be prepared to double the budget! ;) I spent $400 just towing to VIR and back weekend before last!
That would be good news, though going through the lists most of the "aftermarket" parts are performance division parts. But now which ASB are you going to request and each other team - still has to be a single part number. And which end links? Because the OEM end links will quickly become an every 2 race wear item with an aftermarket ASB and race slicks instead of every 4 races. Personally rather than an ASB I would request the JDM STi LCA - its caster will do more for turn in I think than an ASB. And you have the benefit of giving them a Subaru part number - albeit not one that SOA has... :mad:
My point on the dyno time and money argument is that the money teams just make work for themselves and hurt everyone running the model. If they didn't push the envelope so far to begin with the restrictor plate wouldn't have ever entered the equation. But then again little about racing exhibits rational behavior. In your scenario at least your 330hp car could compete against everyone else before the money teams brought about the necessity of a restrictor plate. This is why forced induction is so hard to implement in racing in general and especially in club racing. I guess more than anything my rants and raves are in the hopes that some day they will figure out how to bring about the parity they seek without increasing the costs of participation so much.
The path just seems a bit silly - 2004 T1, 2005 T2, 2006 T2 restrictor plate. If the STi ends up with a restrictor plate in T2 it would have made much more sense to have left it in T1 and permitted the kinds of corrections to the production model that the corvette has to bring it into competition at that level.
IMO restrictor plates cause tunes that bring additional stresses on the turbo and engine to keep the output up there that wouldn't have otherwise been necessary. Four turbos and a couple short blocks a year can really take the steam out of a club effort. I believe racing in T1 without a restrictor plate would cost less than racing in T2 with a restrictor plate.
I really do wish your effort all the best and support your pursuit of the effort. My complaints are directed at thin air - because while I don't like any of it - I don't have a better way for them to run it either.
- Ed.
That would be good news, though going through the lists most of the "aftermarket" parts are performance division parts. But now which ASB are you going to request and each other team - still has to be a single part number. And which end links? Because the OEM end links will quickly become an every 2 race wear item with an aftermarket ASB and race slicks instead of every 4 races. Personally rather than an ASB I would request the JDM STi LCA - its caster will do more for turn in I think than an ASB. And you have the benefit of giving them a Subaru part number - albeit not one that SOA has... :mad:
My point on the dyno time and money argument is that the money teams just make work for themselves and hurt everyone running the model. If they didn't push the envelope so far to begin with the restrictor plate wouldn't have ever entered the equation. But then again little about racing exhibits rational behavior. In your scenario at least your 330hp car could compete against everyone else before the money teams brought about the necessity of a restrictor plate. This is why forced induction is so hard to implement in racing in general and especially in club racing. I guess more than anything my rants and raves are in the hopes that some day they will figure out how to bring about the parity they seek without increasing the costs of participation so much.
The path just seems a bit silly - 2004 T1, 2005 T2, 2006 T2 restrictor plate. If the STi ends up with a restrictor plate in T2 it would have made much more sense to have left it in T1 and permitted the kinds of corrections to the production model that the corvette has to bring it into competition at that level.
IMO restrictor plates cause tunes that bring additional stresses on the turbo and engine to keep the output up there that wouldn't have otherwise been necessary. Four turbos and a couple short blocks a year can really take the steam out of a club effort. I believe racing in T1 without a restrictor plate would cost less than racing in T2 with a restrictor plate.
I really do wish your effort all the best and support your pursuit of the effort. My complaints are directed at thin air - because while I don't like any of it - I don't have a better way for them to run it either.
- Ed.
| infantsam | 08-08-2005 04:58 PM |
[QUOTE=kfoote]I thought that Joel said his Mustang was an '02 or '03 in the conversation I had with him at Lime Rock where he first ran it.
I'll check the results sheet when I get home, the vast majority of the cars have the years listed.
Infantasm...Please tell me you saw the killer start I had on the outside in turns 1-2 on the first lap on Saturday. I'd like a witness :D
I was amazed at the number of mechanical failures in the GT1/2/3/AS race on Saturday. Usually it's the E/F/G/HP/GTL race that has all the attrition.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected - shoulda realized it from the 'old school' speedo.
And yeah - I saw ya from up in the grandstand....sorry j/k. The Cadilac passing half the field from the back at the start was what I remember. And then late in the race a T1 Vette tried to take the inside going into turn 1 against another Vette and got stuck in no mans land. He didn't even try to make the turn and just shot across in front of everyone down the main track. I couldn't believe he didn't get hit.
I was mostly watching Joel and his buddy who won SSC in the black Civic - and of couse the 18 yr old in the Viper
I'll check the results sheet when I get home, the vast majority of the cars have the years listed.
Infantasm...Please tell me you saw the killer start I had on the outside in turns 1-2 on the first lap on Saturday. I'd like a witness :D
I was amazed at the number of mechanical failures in the GT1/2/3/AS race on Saturday. Usually it's the E/F/G/HP/GTL race that has all the attrition.[/QUOTE]
I stand corrected - shoulda realized it from the 'old school' speedo.
And yeah - I saw ya from up in the grandstand....sorry j/k. The Cadilac passing half the field from the back at the start was what I remember. And then late in the race a T1 Vette tried to take the inside going into turn 1 against another Vette and got stuck in no mans land. He didn't even try to make the turn and just shot across in front of everyone down the main track. I couldn't believe he didn't get hit.
I was mostly watching Joel and his buddy who won SSC in the black Civic - and of couse the 18 yr old in the Viper
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 04:58 PM |
[quote]I really do wish your effort all the best and support your pursuit of the effort. My complaints are directed at thin air - because while I don't like any of it - I don't have a better way for them to run it either.[/quote] I guess thats how I feel too. Might as well just go with it and accept it. Thanks for the good luck though :) :lol:
I'm not planning on winning the runoffs next year, hell I don't even plan on going. It will be my rookie year and I hope to break a few hearts along the way (oh that n00b whooped you!), but if the racing budget doubles, then our racing events halve. Oh well. It will still be fun as hell. ;)
-Tom
I'm not planning on winning the runoffs next year, hell I don't even plan on going. It will be my rookie year and I hope to break a few hearts along the way (oh that n00b whooped you!), but if the racing budget doubles, then our racing events halve. Oh well. It will still be fun as hell. ;)
-Tom
| trhoppe | 08-08-2005 05:07 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]That would be good news, though going through the lists most of the "aftermarket" parts are performance division parts. But now which ASB are you going to request and each other team - still has to be a single part number. And which end links? Because the OEM end links will quickly become an every 2 race wear item with an aftermarket ASB and race slicks instead of every 4 races. Personally rather than an ASB I would request the JDM STi LCA - its caster will do more for turn in I think than an ASB. And you have the benefit of giving them a Subaru part number - albeit not one that SOA has... :mad:[/quote] I was going to request whiteline parts as they are cheap, readily available and work well. Also links from them, as I figured a "one stop shop" for those parts would work well. The problem with the JDM parts is that they are not really available. They have an oil cooler, but its $texas and good luck getting a hold of it. They told me they don't care about where the part # its from at all.
[quote]My point on the dyno time and money argument is that the money teams just make work for themselves and hurt everyone running the model. If they didn't push the envelope so far to begin with the restrictor plate wouldn't have ever entered the equation. But then again little about racing exhibits rational behavior. In your scenario at least your 330hp car could compete against everyone else before the money teams brought about the necessity of a restrictor plate. This is why forced induction is so hard to implement in racing in general and especially in club racing. I guess more than anything my rants and raves are in the hopes that some day they will figure out how to bring about the parity they seek without increasing the costs of participation so much.[/quote] Agreed 100%. If they didn't push the envelope. BUT, they have to push the envelope to beat the other cars. If they weren't pushing as hard, they would be losing. All the cars are classed so you have to pull 100% of them in order to win. Its the way it just has to be.
[quote]The path just seems a bit silly - 2004 T1, 2005 T2, 2006 T2 restrictor plate. If the STi ends up with a restrictor plate in T2 it would have made much more sense to have left it in T1 and permitted the kinds of corrections to the production model that the corvette has to bring it into competition at that level.[/quote] I fear the STi going back to T1 and I hope to hell it does not. The C6 Z06 and the Viper once it looses its restrictors will *not* be a match for the poor STi in T1.
[quote]IMO restrictor plates cause tunes that bring additional stresses on the turbo and engine to keep the output up there that wouldn't have otherwise been necessary. Four turbos and a couple short blocks a year can really take the steam out of a club effort. I believe racing in T1 without a restrictor plate would cost less than racing in T2 with a restrictor plate.[/quote] I agree that you might have to push the motor harder, but if the car was a little less powerful to begin with, or if the car was placed in T1 you would be pushing the motor just as hard to compete with those cars. What is harder on a turbo/motor? Unlimited boost through a restrictor, stock exhaust and trying to make 330hp to compete in T2 or unlimited boost with open exhaust, no restrictor, trying to make 390hp to compete in T1?
-Tom
[quote]My point on the dyno time and money argument is that the money teams just make work for themselves and hurt everyone running the model. If they didn't push the envelope so far to begin with the restrictor plate wouldn't have ever entered the equation. But then again little about racing exhibits rational behavior. In your scenario at least your 330hp car could compete against everyone else before the money teams brought about the necessity of a restrictor plate. This is why forced induction is so hard to implement in racing in general and especially in club racing. I guess more than anything my rants and raves are in the hopes that some day they will figure out how to bring about the parity they seek without increasing the costs of participation so much.[/quote] Agreed 100%. If they didn't push the envelope. BUT, they have to push the envelope to beat the other cars. If they weren't pushing as hard, they would be losing. All the cars are classed so you have to pull 100% of them in order to win. Its the way it just has to be.
[quote]The path just seems a bit silly - 2004 T1, 2005 T2, 2006 T2 restrictor plate. If the STi ends up with a restrictor plate in T2 it would have made much more sense to have left it in T1 and permitted the kinds of corrections to the production model that the corvette has to bring it into competition at that level.[/quote] I fear the STi going back to T1 and I hope to hell it does not. The C6 Z06 and the Viper once it looses its restrictors will *not* be a match for the poor STi in T1.
[quote]IMO restrictor plates cause tunes that bring additional stresses on the turbo and engine to keep the output up there that wouldn't have otherwise been necessary. Four turbos and a couple short blocks a year can really take the steam out of a club effort. I believe racing in T1 without a restrictor plate would cost less than racing in T2 with a restrictor plate.[/quote] I agree that you might have to push the motor harder, but if the car was a little less powerful to begin with, or if the car was placed in T1 you would be pushing the motor just as hard to compete with those cars. What is harder on a turbo/motor? Unlimited boost through a restrictor, stock exhaust and trying to make 330hp to compete in T2 or unlimited boost with open exhaust, no restrictor, trying to make 390hp to compete in T1?
-Tom
| Patrick Olsen | 08-08-2005 10:35 PM |
[QUOTE=infantsam]The PBR calipers are aluminum without any support like you see on typical fixed caliper (the bolts that 'surround' the rotor)
Gets hot, gets soft, hard on the pedal and there was like a 15 degree change in the surface that pushes on the outboard pad. Seriously tapered pad wear - top to bottom not front to back. It opens up like a clam shell.[/QUOTE]
I'm well familiar with the PBR calipers, as I have them on my '89. I'm just surprised to hear of someone having that much trouble with them. There are hundreds (thousands?) of guys racing and open tracking Mustangs (AV8SS, American Iron, American Iron Extreme, A Sedan, etc) using the Baer/Cobra/Bullitt/Mach1 PBR calipers and I've never heard of anyone getting them so hot the caliper was getting soft. :eek: I'm assuming he has good cooling ducts routed to the front brakes?
Oh, and to put this somewhat on subject :) , that's an interesting argument about just putting the STi's in T1 and letting them build the car up, rather than putting them in T2 and restricting them. I don't know enough about how they did in T1 initially to know whether they would have a hope of competing. I found a thread on another forum with the T1 and T2 lap times and it looks to me like the STi's that "ran away with T2" would have been humiliated in T1.
Pat
Gets hot, gets soft, hard on the pedal and there was like a 15 degree change in the surface that pushes on the outboard pad. Seriously tapered pad wear - top to bottom not front to back. It opens up like a clam shell.[/QUOTE]
I'm well familiar with the PBR calipers, as I have them on my '89. I'm just surprised to hear of someone having that much trouble with them. There are hundreds (thousands?) of guys racing and open tracking Mustangs (AV8SS, American Iron, American Iron Extreme, A Sedan, etc) using the Baer/Cobra/Bullitt/Mach1 PBR calipers and I've never heard of anyone getting them so hot the caliper was getting soft. :eek: I'm assuming he has good cooling ducts routed to the front brakes?
Oh, and to put this somewhat on subject :) , that's an interesting argument about just putting the STi's in T1 and letting them build the car up, rather than putting them in T2 and restricting them. I don't know enough about how they did in T1 initially to know whether they would have a hope of competing. I found a thread on another forum with the T1 and T2 lap times and it looks to me like the STi's that "ran away with T2" would have been humiliated in T1.
Pat
| turboICE | 08-08-2005 10:59 PM |
In the 2004 runoffs the STi was not as developed as the current ones are and the driver was not as comfortable in the car as his competitors who were at their 4th and more runoffs in extremely similar cars to prior years. The STi's are likely to runaway with T-2 this year. Last year the STi would have qualified third in T-2 and was mid pack in T-1 (I think on the finishing order). An STi tuned as these two were AND allowed to use reasonable improvements like lowered springs, shortened struts, castered LCA and ARBs driven well would be competitive with the vette's and vipers - before they started helping them go faster than they were.
Oh and there is no open exhaust for anyone in Touring since they are required at all times to meet federal and state emmissions laws specifically ARB and EPA.
But then again the competitiveness of any car in any class is not guaranteed but in Touring the SCCA sure does a lot of dancing around trying keep the lobbyists happy.
Oh and there is no open exhaust for anyone in Touring since they are required at all times to meet federal and state emmissions laws specifically ARB and EPA.
But then again the competitiveness of any car in any class is not guaranteed but in Touring the SCCA sure does a lot of dancing around trying keep the lobbyists happy.
| Patrick Olsen | 08-08-2005 11:58 PM |
Just to clarify, the T1 and T2 lap times I was referring to were from this past weekend's Pocono event, not from last year's Runoffs. At Pocono the STi's were in the 1:45-1:46 range, while the T1 guys were down in the 1:40 range. That's a pretty big difference to make up.
Pat
Pat
| turboICE | 08-09-2005 12:07 AM |
On Pocono it really is a big difference.
I see old track records were taken out in both classes.
At the same time I don't see anything in the fast lap times to say that the STi's were running away - the fastest lap and new record was posted by a firebird on Saturday. And then beat the next day by an STi.
I am not confident that there is anything in those times to justify a restrictor plate.
I see old track records were taken out in both classes.
At the same time I don't see anything in the fast lap times to say that the STi's were running away - the fastest lap and new record was posted by a firebird on Saturday. And then beat the next day by an STi.
I am not confident that there is anything in those times to justify a restrictor plate.
| Patrick Olsen | 08-09-2005 01:11 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]At the same time I don't see anything in the fast lap times to say that the STi's were running away - the fastest lap and new record was posted by a firebird on Saturday. And then beat the next day by an STi.
I am not confident that there is anything in those times to justify a restrictor plate.[/QUOTE]
I thought the same thing. Perhaps the STis were consistently running those times, while the F-body guys were only able to crank out 1 or 2 fast laps? I dunno. Of course, that would then raise the question [i]Just who is it that's doing the sand bagging?[/i] :devil:
Pat
I am not confident that there is anything in those times to justify a restrictor plate.[/QUOTE]
I thought the same thing. Perhaps the STis were consistently running those times, while the F-body guys were only able to crank out 1 or 2 fast laps? I dunno. Of course, that would then raise the question [i]Just who is it that's doing the sand bagging?[/i] :devil:
Pat
| turboICE | 08-09-2005 07:40 AM |
Yep not enough information.
| trhoppe | 08-09-2005 07:55 AM |
We're not going to find out *anything* about any of the cars in T until the runoffs get here. T1 is a Corvette vs. Viper battle with both sides saying the other is bagging. In T2, there is also a lot on the table. I think both classes with pull out their A games and the rules decisions will have to be made on performances there.
-Tom
-Tom
| turboICE | 08-09-2005 08:28 AM |
Most likely - but the commentary this year won't be - "the STi would only win if it snowed, and it didn't snow" ;)
It definitely is making the runoffs something that I will be looking to watch instead of catching a couple of the races by chance if it was convenient.
It definitely is making the runoffs something that I will be looking to watch instead of catching a couple of the races by chance if it was convenient.
| TheWake | 08-09-2005 08:55 AM |
From where I was (Flag station 2 Sat. & 4 on Sun.) there was not a huge performance difference in the top set of t2 cars. The STi's looked like they had to work to get out front and stay there.
| turboICE | 08-09-2005 09:22 AM |
Thanks for that on field report - and thanks for the hard work out there to keep them running safely!
It definitely would be nice if the STi's were solidly competitive without them adding a restrictor plate.
It definitely would be nice if the STi's were solidly competitive without them adding a restrictor plate.
| turboICE | 08-20-2005 01:01 AM |
So does Hermes drive an F-body? "Add a restrictor, 100 lbs, and an OEM tire size restriction to the STi and Evo."
For now the board views the specs as appropriate fortunately.
See Oct fast track.
For now the board views the specs as appropriate fortunately.
See Oct fast track.
| trhoppe | 08-20-2005 10:48 AM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]So does Hermes drive an F-body? "Add a restrictor, 100 lbs, and an OEM tire size restriction to the STi and Evo."
For now the board views the specs as appropriate fortunately.
See Oct fast track.[/QUOTE]
Yea, he drives a Camaro.
For now the board views the specs as appropriate fortunately.
See Oct fast track.[/QUOTE]
Yea, he drives a Camaro.
| turboICE | 09-20-2005 12:08 AM |
Which vehicle has been sanbagging during the year?
Today's practice.
Touring 2 � Don Knowles, Pittsboro, N.C., Pontiac Fire � 1:38.798
Today's practice.
Touring 2 � Don Knowles, Pittsboro, N.C., Pontiac Fire � 1:38.798
| trhoppe | 09-20-2005 01:07 AM |
Dunno about "sandbagging", good driver in a good car :confused:
The results from T2 rock though. Check out the parity.
1) Knowles (Firebird)
2) Schader (350z)
3) Rosenblum (STi)
4) Mitchell (M3)
5) Hines (350z)
6) Culbertson (350z)
7) Schotz (Camaro)
8) Boden (M3)
9) Ziegler (Evo)
10) Baten (Camaro)
All within 1.2 sec!
-Tom
The results from T2 rock though. Check out the parity.
1) Knowles (Firebird)
2) Schader (350z)
3) Rosenblum (STi)
4) Mitchell (M3)
5) Hines (350z)
6) Culbertson (350z)
7) Schotz (Camaro)
8) Boden (M3)
9) Ziegler (Evo)
10) Baten (Camaro)
All within 1.2 sec!
-Tom
| z3coupe | 09-20-2005 01:12 AM |
Just a thought seeing all your posts about restrictor plates, and how it will cause the costs to skyrocket, just to get back to 330HP, and the factory cars having 360HP . . . . . and even without the restrictor plates, teams with the $$$$ can still coax a ton of HP out of their motor, where the less funded would be at 330 still - would it help to create a horsepower base for the class? Like in the JGTC, they have the 300HP class and the 500HP class. Thus, T1 could be limited to say 600HP, T2 to 350HP? At least in some way, it would help make ALL the cars possible contenders? And say add in vehichle weight limits in respect to what HP up to the limit they have? I could see that this could help mix the NA and forced induction cars together much better.
| trhoppe | 09-20-2005 01:15 AM |
Can't do that. With JGTC, its like nascar, all the cars are the same thing under the skin. These cars on the other hand are almost off the showroom floor, so each one has its plusses and minuses. Some get more HP, better brakes and crappy handling, while others get good handling and not a lot of HP. It totally depends.
-Tom
-Tom
| turboICE | 09-20-2005 08:06 AM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Dunno about "sandbagging", good driver in a good car :confused:
The results from T2 rock though. Check out the parity.
1) Knowles (Firebird)
2) Schader (350z)
3) Rosenblum (STi)
4) Mitchell (M3)
5) Hines (350z)
6) Culbertson (350z)
7) Schotz (Camaro)
8) Boden (M3)
9) Ziegler (Evo)
10) Baten (Camaro)
All within 1.2 sec!
-Tom[/QUOTE]Tom, my point was that the non-STi's seem to be doing fine when it matters at the runoffs. Elsewhere there has been talk that there were STi's that have been sandbagging during the season to avoid restrictor plates. It looks like everyone is just fine as currently classed and spec line allowances/restrictions.
The results from T2 rock though. Check out the parity.
1) Knowles (Firebird)
2) Schader (350z)
3) Rosenblum (STi)
4) Mitchell (M3)
5) Hines (350z)
6) Culbertson (350z)
7) Schotz (Camaro)
8) Boden (M3)
9) Ziegler (Evo)
10) Baten (Camaro)
All within 1.2 sec!
-Tom[/QUOTE]Tom, my point was that the non-STi's seem to be doing fine when it matters at the runoffs. Elsewhere there has been talk that there were STi's that have been sandbagging during the season to avoid restrictor plates. It looks like everyone is just fine as currently classed and spec line allowances/restrictions.
| endeavor | 09-20-2005 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Can't do that. With JGTC, its like nascar, all the cars are the same thing under the skin. These cars on the other hand are almost off the showroom floor, so each one has its plusses and minuses. Some get more HP, better brakes and crappy handling, while others get good handling and not a lot of HP. It totally depends.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I agree with your point that the JGTC restrictors won't work for Touring. But just as a tangent, JGTC cars are very different under the skin.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I agree with your point that the JGTC restrictors won't work for Touring. But just as a tangent, JGTC cars are very different under the skin.
| trhoppe | 09-20-2005 01:31 PM |
[QUOTE=endeavor]I agree with your point that the JGTC restrictors won't work for Touring. But just as a tangent, JGTC cars are very different under the skin.[/QUOTE]
Really? I was under the impression it was japanese nascar. Maybe not :)
The real fun will start in about 1.5 hours. Check out [url]http://leaderboard.vfx.com/SCCA/RunOffs/LiveTiming.asp?Class=[/url] for live scoring of the runoffs. T2 qualifies at 2:50pm. T1 is on track in 20 mins.
-Tom
Really? I was under the impression it was japanese nascar. Maybe not :)
The real fun will start in about 1.5 hours. Check out [url]http://leaderboard.vfx.com/SCCA/RunOffs/LiveTiming.asp?Class=[/url] for live scoring of the runoffs. T2 qualifies at 2:50pm. T1 is on track in 20 mins.
-Tom
| javid | 09-20-2005 05:12 PM |
[QUOTE=turboICE]Tom, my point was that the non-STi's seem to be doing fine when it matters at the runoffs. Elsewhere there has been talk that there were STi's that have been sandbagging during the season to avoid restrictor plates. It looks like everyone is just fine as currently classed and spec line allowances/restrictions.[/QUOTE]
Well the STis didn't attend the race at Mid Ohio a few months ago, so this would be there first time at Mid Ohio in a T2 STi. I 'magin most of the run-off contenders were sure to have made that race.
I predict that the STis will take 1-2-3 and Tom will have to drive a 4000lb STi with no sway bars next year. :lol:
See ya Friday sucka.
Well the STis didn't attend the race at Mid Ohio a few months ago, so this would be there first time at Mid Ohio in a T2 STi. I 'magin most of the run-off contenders were sure to have made that race.
I predict that the STis will take 1-2-3 and Tom will have to drive a 4000lb STi with no sway bars next year. :lol:
See ya Friday sucka.
| AndrewSS | 09-20-2005 08:44 PM |
so who is going to be at the runoffs from here??? im going to to spectate on saturday (24th) and try to get some left over tires... i def wanna see the T2 race @ 11am :)
| Midnight_Gold | 09-21-2005 01:25 AM |
[QUOTE=AndrewSS]so who is going to be at the runoffs from here??? im going to to spectate on saturday (24th) and try to get some left over tires... i def wanna see the T2 race @ 11am :)[/QUOTE]
Good luck with the tires, muahaha, we're going to scam about 10-12 friday :lol:
-Tom
Good luck with the tires, muahaha, we're going to scam about 10-12 friday :lol:
-Tom
| pio!pio! | 09-21-2005 01:38 AM |
what a great idea!! do they do this at world challenge races also???? heheheh (the scamming of used tires)
| javid | 09-21-2005 08:51 AM |
[QUOTE=pio!pio!]what a great idea!! do they do this at world challenge races also???? heheheh (the scamming of used tires)[/QUOTE]
You can grab take offs from behind the Hoosier, Kumho, etc trailers at any large race. These are the bottom of the barrel though. Many are corded or have flat spots. You are generally after tires that have been heat cycled or worn down farther than a team will use for another segment of their tire cycling schedule. You can get first pick by making good with teams that are running your size. ;)
In any event, Hoppe and I will get all the good ones before anyone else :p
Javid
Who will be at the runoff's with a pickup truck and tie down's rather than the company's pimp SUV. :devil:
You can grab take offs from behind the Hoosier, Kumho, etc trailers at any large race. These are the bottom of the barrel though. Many are corded or have flat spots. You are generally after tires that have been heat cycled or worn down farther than a team will use for another segment of their tire cycling schedule. You can get first pick by making good with teams that are running your size. ;)
In any event, Hoppe and I will get all the good ones before anyone else :p
Javid
Who will be at the runoff's with a pickup truck and tie down's rather than the company's pimp SUV. :devil:
| trhoppe | 09-21-2005 10:57 AM |
Good point. We're not getting the junk stuff from the trailer, we're stealing take offs from a few teams we know :)
-Tom
-Tom
| trhoppe | 09-21-2005 10:59 AM |
That 4000lb STi might still happen :lol: We now have 3 STis in the top 7 after Qualifying #2, one more qual session left tomorrow.
-Tom
-Tom
| javid | 09-21-2005 12:32 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]That 4000lb STi might still happen :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I'll send a letter to the SCCA about how the STi sway bars are an unfair advantage.
~350Z lover :lol:
-Tom[/QUOTE]
I'll send a letter to the SCCA about how the STi sway bars are an unfair advantage.
~350Z lover :lol:
| turboICE | 09-21-2005 12:35 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]That 4000lb STi might still happen :lol: We now have 3 STis in the top 7 after Qualifying #2, one more qual session left tomorrow.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is the STi can run the USTCC but the way classing works out it would in fact be classed at around 4,100 lbs...
Ed.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
The funny thing is the STi can run the USTCC but the way classing works out it would in fact be classed at around 4,100 lbs...
Ed.
| trhoppe | 09-21-2005 01:38 PM |
<cartman>Screw you guys!</cartman>
Honestly, as long as other cars are ahead and the times are all fairly close, they can't penalize the STis for having 3 top level factory supported cars.
-Tom
at least thats what I hope ;)
Honestly, as long as other cars are ahead and the times are all fairly close, they can't penalize the STis for having 3 top level factory supported cars.
-Tom
at least thats what I hope ;)
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