| Corn-Picker | 05-14-2005 06:54 PM |
[QUOTE=evilnissan]I got to get this off my chest.
SWVRSCCA member, I was also in the timing trailer when this accident accorded and watched it with my own eyes.
The real problem I have with this is that the event was in march, you got in your car after putting a spare tire or 2 on and proceeded to drive from event all the way back to Morgantown, 150+ miles. You admitted it was your fault for trying to drive to hard. That day there was some one in a STI who came out of a turn and never left off the gas and spin a 540 with out lifting, not a sign of someone with any kind of basic car control. (not saying it was you).
Here is some lost quotes.
So some time passes and in August we recieve notice from national that you were wanting some sort of compensation. At that same time we also learned that the SSS in charge at the event failed to turn in the report. (our bad)
So in march it was totally your fault and could fix it cheap, but come August you want something and its everyone's fault but yours.
Some more time passes and were still trying to get the ex-SSS from that event to send in all the paper work. Finally in February we get things straightened out with National. We reconstructed the layout and measured it, low and behold it meets requirements. With this information My self and several board member travel to Indiana for a big meeting with the CEN-DEV members to work things out.
And that's about it.
I really hate to dig up old stuff but this BS kills me.[/QUOTE]
I say directly in the post you quoted that the incident would have been relatively cheap if not for the [I]3 BBS rims and two tires[/I]. RE070s are $180 each, BBS rims are $400 each easily... I never had a high expectation of compensation, and I don't think I'm entitled to much if any, as the incident was mostly my fault. I would have been grateful that some might be thrown my way if the SCCA did an investigation and found the region grossly out of compliance, which I believed the region to be. But it didn't happen so I didn't pursue it any further.
Initially (March-May) I did lay all of the blame on myself, but after attending auto-x's in other regions (June-August) I came to the conclusion that the SWVR was half-assed with regards to safety relative to other regions. I was also indignant over the audacity shown by SWVR in attempting to cover up the incident. "Forgot to file a report" is clearly a euphemism for burying the incident. If the region simply "forgot to file a report" the threads on the SWVR website about the incident (and the subsequent lawn repair) wouldn't have been deleted.
Belief in substandard safety procedures alone would not have been enough to motivate me to contact the SCCA, for that motivation it took the addition of what I perceieved to be a coverup by the SWVR. So, that brings us to where we were a month or so ago.
This posting is a culmination of a lot of things. I must say one of the reasons for posting was that the mailings I received from the SCCA were so vague as to be useless to me. I had no idea based on the communications I received from the SCCA if any meaningful action had been taken. I had no idea based on the communications from the SCCA if they had any written records on this incident. I attempted to contact the SCCA 2-3 times to get more specific information on what exactly they did, but again their communications to me were so overly vague and dodgy as to be useless. The only way I knew to ensure this incident was remembered was through a highly viewed (albeit controversial) posting on a forum where people involved with motorsports reside. Maybe I could have handled this posting with more eloquence, but what's done is done.
Tryng to use perspective I think zzyzx hit it right on the nose, we're probably arguing so viciously because so little is at stake. I think all involved could have done a lot differently. I could have communicated with less public airings and pissing and moaning, SWVR could have filed the reports in a timely manner, and the SCCA could have communicated with me to let me know what specific actions were taken to make sure this wouldn't happen in the future.
I'm happy to let this thread die as its purpose is served. I will post no more in this thread. Any more communications, flames, or otherwise I will respond to by PM.
SWVRSCCA member, I was also in the timing trailer when this accident accorded and watched it with my own eyes.
The real problem I have with this is that the event was in march, you got in your car after putting a spare tire or 2 on and proceeded to drive from event all the way back to Morgantown, 150+ miles. You admitted it was your fault for trying to drive to hard. That day there was some one in a STI who came out of a turn and never left off the gas and spin a 540 with out lifting, not a sign of someone with any kind of basic car control. (not saying it was you).
Here is some lost quotes.
So some time passes and in August we recieve notice from national that you were wanting some sort of compensation. At that same time we also learned that the SSS in charge at the event failed to turn in the report. (our bad)
So in march it was totally your fault and could fix it cheap, but come August you want something and its everyone's fault but yours.
Some more time passes and were still trying to get the ex-SSS from that event to send in all the paper work. Finally in February we get things straightened out with National. We reconstructed the layout and measured it, low and behold it meets requirements. With this information My self and several board member travel to Indiana for a big meeting with the CEN-DEV members to work things out.
And that's about it.
I really hate to dig up old stuff but this BS kills me.[/QUOTE]
I say directly in the post you quoted that the incident would have been relatively cheap if not for the [I]3 BBS rims and two tires[/I]. RE070s are $180 each, BBS rims are $400 each easily... I never had a high expectation of compensation, and I don't think I'm entitled to much if any, as the incident was mostly my fault. I would have been grateful that some might be thrown my way if the SCCA did an investigation and found the region grossly out of compliance, which I believed the region to be. But it didn't happen so I didn't pursue it any further.
Initially (March-May) I did lay all of the blame on myself, but after attending auto-x's in other regions (June-August) I came to the conclusion that the SWVR was half-assed with regards to safety relative to other regions. I was also indignant over the audacity shown by SWVR in attempting to cover up the incident. "Forgot to file a report" is clearly a euphemism for burying the incident. If the region simply "forgot to file a report" the threads on the SWVR website about the incident (and the subsequent lawn repair) wouldn't have been deleted.
Belief in substandard safety procedures alone would not have been enough to motivate me to contact the SCCA, for that motivation it took the addition of what I perceieved to be a coverup by the SWVR. So, that brings us to where we were a month or so ago.
This posting is a culmination of a lot of things. I must say one of the reasons for posting was that the mailings I received from the SCCA were so vague as to be useless to me. I had no idea based on the communications I received from the SCCA if any meaningful action had been taken. I had no idea based on the communications from the SCCA if they had any written records on this incident. I attempted to contact the SCCA 2-3 times to get more specific information on what exactly they did, but again their communications to me were so overly vague and dodgy as to be useless. The only way I knew to ensure this incident was remembered was through a highly viewed (albeit controversial) posting on a forum where people involved with motorsports reside. Maybe I could have handled this posting with more eloquence, but what's done is done.
Tryng to use perspective I think zzyzx hit it right on the nose, we're probably arguing so viciously because so little is at stake. I think all involved could have done a lot differently. I could have communicated with less public airings and pissing and moaning, SWVR could have filed the reports in a timely manner, and the SCCA could have communicated with me to let me know what specific actions were taken to make sure this wouldn't happen in the future.
I'm happy to let this thread die as its purpose is served. I will post no more in this thread. Any more communications, flames, or otherwise I will respond to by PM.
| MinesFaster | 05-15-2005 01:36 AM |
[QUOTE]Initially (March-May) I did lay all of the blame on myself, but after attending auto-x's in other regions (June-August) I came to the conclusion that the SWVR was half-assed with regards to safety relative to other regions[/QUOTE]
The classic it bugged you in the beginning, but rather than letting it go and chocking it up to experience, you stewed on it. It would be tantamount to me blaming the NHRA for putting VHT down and prepping a track where I got TOO MUCH TRACTION and then broke something or ended up in a wall. Of course it would be the NHRA's fault that the wall was there, right? I mean if they didnt mandate them I wouldnt have hit it.
Accidents happen. Thats why they are called accidents not 'on purposes'. You dont deny that initially you admitted you overdrove your car and your abilities. End of discussion. You are lucky that your lack of skill didnt hurt you or anyone that was nearby.
Man up and bite the bullet. Did what the SCCA do or not do in this case really matter? They revised their layouts. No plans are foolproof, for fools get in Subaru's and autocross. Did you crash because of how you were driving? Yes. From what I can see the apex of most of the corners are actually clear or as reasonably clear as can be expected in a PARKING LOT that isnt designed for racing.
If this is your point (and I am guessing that it is), that Club racing isnt for everyone, wow a revelation. To quote Smee, "I have had an apostrophe...a bolt of lightning has hit my brain." Is the NHRA for everyone? If it was would you have the IHRA and AHRA as well as local grudge matches?
The classic it bugged you in the beginning, but rather than letting it go and chocking it up to experience, you stewed on it. It would be tantamount to me blaming the NHRA for putting VHT down and prepping a track where I got TOO MUCH TRACTION and then broke something or ended up in a wall. Of course it would be the NHRA's fault that the wall was there, right? I mean if they didnt mandate them I wouldnt have hit it.
Accidents happen. Thats why they are called accidents not 'on purposes'. You dont deny that initially you admitted you overdrove your car and your abilities. End of discussion. You are lucky that your lack of skill didnt hurt you or anyone that was nearby.
Man up and bite the bullet. Did what the SCCA do or not do in this case really matter? They revised their layouts. No plans are foolproof, for fools get in Subaru's and autocross. Did you crash because of how you were driving? Yes. From what I can see the apex of most of the corners are actually clear or as reasonably clear as can be expected in a PARKING LOT that isnt designed for racing.
If this is your point (and I am guessing that it is), that Club racing isnt for everyone, wow a revelation. To quote Smee, "I have had an apostrophe...a bolt of lightning has hit my brain." Is the NHRA for everyone? If it was would you have the IHRA and AHRA as well as local grudge matches?
| Jaberwocky | 05-15-2005 03:11 AM |
The SCCA guidelines are abritrary at best. Chances are, before this incident you did not know what the policy regarding distance from the curb. Chances are that the only reason that you discovered this is because you were looking for a way to squeeze the region for money. If you lost control of the car, the only person you can blame is yourself. Granted, most of us have lost control on occasions, but any resulting damage from that is our own responsibilty. Autocrossing at a regional level is grassroots at best. Just a bunch of local folks with a common interest getting together. Everyone have a small share of responsibility, especially when it comes to being responsible for yourself.
| Soul Assasin | 05-15-2005 10:01 PM |
I agree with 99% of the replies. What an idiot, I like how he said that the car overcorrected itself. You gotta pay to play and its this type of finger pointing that is ruining our country. Take responsibility for your own actions, grow a pair, and learn how to drive your car. As Sanford always said "You big dummie"
| CamaroFS34 | 05-15-2005 10:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Corn-Picker]Tryng to use perspective I think zzyzx hit it right on the nose, we're probably arguing so viciously because so little is at stake. [/QUOTE]
Whether what is a stake is "a little" or "a lot" is going to depend on what side of the fence you stand on.
The region stands to lose a site, the SSS stands to lose his SSS license, the region also stands to lose the ability to sanction autocrosses for the foreseeable future. Considering SCCA is not-for-profit, and many regions do not carry large sums in their coffers, expecting any form of compensation also means that the region may not be able to upgrade equipment or do other things that require cash, and this could be an even bigger problem if they can't hold autocrosses for lack of a SSS or venue.
I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales. I could have turned around and gone home, after driving 2.5 hours to get there. If I'd hit something, yeah, I'd be mad, but at myself. The region did the best they could with the site's shortcomings and the safety rules. There's only so much we can do to prevent accidents. Otherwise, everyone should just stay locked in the "safe" confines of their homes, and die by stepping on a bar of soap in the shower.....
Karen
Whether what is a stake is "a little" or "a lot" is going to depend on what side of the fence you stand on.
The region stands to lose a site, the SSS stands to lose his SSS license, the region also stands to lose the ability to sanction autocrosses for the foreseeable future. Considering SCCA is not-for-profit, and many regions do not carry large sums in their coffers, expecting any form of compensation also means that the region may not be able to upgrade equipment or do other things that require cash, and this could be an even bigger problem if they can't hold autocrosses for lack of a SSS or venue.
I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales. I could have turned around and gone home, after driving 2.5 hours to get there. If I'd hit something, yeah, I'd be mad, but at myself. The region did the best they could with the site's shortcomings and the safety rules. There's only so much we can do to prevent accidents. Otherwise, everyone should just stay locked in the "safe" confines of their homes, and die by stepping on a bar of soap in the shower.....
Karen
| XT6Wagon | 05-16-2005 04:50 AM |
I've been to many events that were far more "dangerous" to the car than your little event. Its simply a fact of the lack of good lots being avalible in most regions. I've been to one that I bumped the limiter in 2nd (approx 80mph) heading at a curb... and negotated a turn just before it at said speed dumping me out maybe 15ft from it. Guess what every run but that one I was doing a nice safe 50mph or so because *I* was being responsible for my safety and braked when I didn't "have" to brake. That run was the product of learning just what the cars limits were on said surface, and the layout of the course. guess what, NO ONE had issues hitting something in that lot with its numourus close light poles, curbs, etc. despite 10+ novices attending.
More over the danger of the STi and cars like it is that you think the car is a magic bullet and will allways pull your rear end out of the fire when things go wrong. It won't. More over you should learn the #1 rule of safe autoX. If you start to loose the car... Ditch the run as you already blew a winning run. Trying to save it before or during a spin is a GREAT way to eat it. How would you feel if you hit a cornerworker instead of a curb? GET IT???
Basicly I feel that the only "bad" thing this region did was cover up the incedent. They should have jumped the hoops required and basicly said... Ooops we need a better autox n00b program to make sure that people understand the sport.
More over the danger of the STi and cars like it is that you think the car is a magic bullet and will allways pull your rear end out of the fire when things go wrong. It won't. More over you should learn the #1 rule of safe autoX. If you start to loose the car... Ditch the run as you already blew a winning run. Trying to save it before or during a spin is a GREAT way to eat it. How would you feel if you hit a cornerworker instead of a curb? GET IT???
Basicly I feel that the only "bad" thing this region did was cover up the incedent. They should have jumped the hoops required and basicly said... Ooops we need a better autox n00b program to make sure that people understand the sport.
| robmarch | 05-16-2005 10:59 AM |
just an outside observer's take:
[QUOTE=BillGammon]The fact is that you are a child and one year after an incident still can't assume the responsibility for what happened. [/QUOTE]
The fact is that your organization still hasn't assumed full responsibility for their share of what happened either.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]Our region should have done a few things differently (after your incident), but that in no way alleviates you from the burden of being a virgin, novice driver in a car with capabilities and horsepower so wildly out of your league that you shouldn't even have the keys. [/QUOTE]
not only is this statement ridiculous, since 95% of all autocrossers (and fully 99% of drivers) are in this same situation, this also goes both ways. The driver should have done a few things differently, but that in no way alleviates your region from the burden of providing a safe course for novice drivers. It would be just as true to say that your region's members are so wildly out of their league that they shouldn't be designing courses. Of course, neither statement is representative of the entire situation, and it's difficult to design courses in tight lots.
However, if you aren't going to design a novice friendly course, don't accept novice registrations.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]I hope you go on to learn a lot about life and driving.[/QUOTE]
I hope your club goes on to learn a lot about life and course preparation. People (especially novices) generally autocross their only car, unlike experts, who may have a prepped second car that they can afford to damage.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself. [/QUOTE]
Your club put on an event for a driver that had a blemish free autocross safety record also, and proceeded to drag him through hell also by designing a course that violated design rules, not filing incident reports, and denying your own responsibility whenever possible. I hope you guys understand that you are lucky no one was seriously injured, and that you're all sufficiently ashamed of yourselves too.
You guys think this is one sided, but neither of you are fully accepting the blame you deserve, or the potential future ramifications of your actions.
Of course the driver is ultimately responsible, and I agree with everyone else here that he is responsible for the damages to his car. Especially since he was overdriving (according to witnesses) and tried to save this run (according to himself) rather than putting both feet in. But, novices will be attending events, and the course designers need to design courses that are safe. The fact that the club treated this situation (especially the aftermath) with total apathy is disappointing to me. The penalties to the club are already significant enough to me, also, so I think ultimately this debate is for nothing.
Everyone already has their punishment, all that's left is for the parties to fully accept their responsibility, so that history won't repeat itself.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]The fact is that you are a child and one year after an incident still can't assume the responsibility for what happened. [/QUOTE]
The fact is that your organization still hasn't assumed full responsibility for their share of what happened either.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]Our region should have done a few things differently (after your incident), but that in no way alleviates you from the burden of being a virgin, novice driver in a car with capabilities and horsepower so wildly out of your league that you shouldn't even have the keys. [/QUOTE]
not only is this statement ridiculous, since 95% of all autocrossers (and fully 99% of drivers) are in this same situation, this also goes both ways. The driver should have done a few things differently, but that in no way alleviates your region from the burden of providing a safe course for novice drivers. It would be just as true to say that your region's members are so wildly out of their league that they shouldn't be designing courses. Of course, neither statement is representative of the entire situation, and it's difficult to design courses in tight lots.
However, if you aren't going to design a novice friendly course, don't accept novice registrations.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]I hope you go on to learn a lot about life and driving.[/QUOTE]
I hope your club goes on to learn a lot about life and course preparation. People (especially novices) generally autocross their only car, unlike experts, who may have a prepped second car that they can afford to damage.
[QUOTE=BillGammon]You swept into our town, entered in a region with a blemish free safety record and proceeded to drag us through hell that has yet to abate. You should be ashamed of yourself. [/QUOTE]
Your club put on an event for a driver that had a blemish free autocross safety record also, and proceeded to drag him through hell also by designing a course that violated design rules, not filing incident reports, and denying your own responsibility whenever possible. I hope you guys understand that you are lucky no one was seriously injured, and that you're all sufficiently ashamed of yourselves too.
You guys think this is one sided, but neither of you are fully accepting the blame you deserve, or the potential future ramifications of your actions.
Of course the driver is ultimately responsible, and I agree with everyone else here that he is responsible for the damages to his car. Especially since he was overdriving (according to witnesses) and tried to save this run (according to himself) rather than putting both feet in. But, novices will be attending events, and the course designers need to design courses that are safe. The fact that the club treated this situation (especially the aftermath) with total apathy is disappointing to me. The penalties to the club are already significant enough to me, also, so I think ultimately this debate is for nothing.
Everyone already has their punishment, all that's left is for the parties to fully accept their responsibility, so that history won't repeat itself.
| WRX-ECE | 05-16-2005 10:21 PM |
I'm not going to bother even mentioning about the SCCA's reaction, it was as expected for a MINOR, although unfortunate incident. But I will respond to other things:
1) If they own the site, then they own the content. I agree it may have been in poor form to delete posts. But, if nick wanted to he could come in here and write "Jeremy's an F'ing Wanker" over every post I've ever written and there's nothing I could do about it. The internet is only the land of free speech to those who PAY for it to be there, you're spending other peoples money every character you type.
2) I know at my first Auto-X I made MYSELF drive under control untill I felt comfortable stretching towards the limit. Now, three years later, I spun my car twice during yesterdays event, but I know how to control it and there's that instant where I see the 6'5" 300lb instructor that took me out my first time yelling "BOTH FEET IN" and I do.
3) Which leads me to my next point, instructing novices, I've been to places where novices are treated like leppers and I've been to others where there treated like new friends. I think my region does a pretty good job with them, as the four or five posters from this thread that have been to our events will agree. The region should have learned to spend extra time with the novices and explain to them to take is easy, and to watch out in certain places. That is about all you can ask. I didn't see anything too bad from those pics, but you can't tell from poorly taken pics that aren't at the right angles. My region has done everything from sitting people down to asking them to leave because of the safety issues they cause from over driving their abilities.
4) I've been to other organizations and other regions where I will not run any more. One place I won't go to after being at a race and seeing cars going 100+ MPH towards a curb, and 25' be damned 250' wouldn't have mattered. I was doing almost 80 in those places and didn't feel safe, so I dailed it back. I didn't feel safe while working the course either. Now I chose not to race there. We have region members that do not race their cars at some of our lots because of the power/size/surface combo and they know that getting out will not be good.
PS - please read this thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498019[/url]
for how to better deal with your own driving mistakes...
1) If they own the site, then they own the content. I agree it may have been in poor form to delete posts. But, if nick wanted to he could come in here and write "Jeremy's an F'ing Wanker" over every post I've ever written and there's nothing I could do about it. The internet is only the land of free speech to those who PAY for it to be there, you're spending other peoples money every character you type.
2) I know at my first Auto-X I made MYSELF drive under control untill I felt comfortable stretching towards the limit. Now, three years later, I spun my car twice during yesterdays event, but I know how to control it and there's that instant where I see the 6'5" 300lb instructor that took me out my first time yelling "BOTH FEET IN" and I do.
3) Which leads me to my next point, instructing novices, I've been to places where novices are treated like leppers and I've been to others where there treated like new friends. I think my region does a pretty good job with them, as the four or five posters from this thread that have been to our events will agree. The region should have learned to spend extra time with the novices and explain to them to take is easy, and to watch out in certain places. That is about all you can ask. I didn't see anything too bad from those pics, but you can't tell from poorly taken pics that aren't at the right angles. My region has done everything from sitting people down to asking them to leave because of the safety issues they cause from over driving their abilities.
4) I've been to other organizations and other regions where I will not run any more. One place I won't go to after being at a race and seeing cars going 100+ MPH towards a curb, and 25' be damned 250' wouldn't have mattered. I was doing almost 80 in those places and didn't feel safe, so I dailed it back. I didn't feel safe while working the course either. Now I chose not to race there. We have region members that do not race their cars at some of our lots because of the power/size/surface combo and they know that getting out will not be good.
PS - please read this thread:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498019[/url]
for how to better deal with your own driving mistakes...
| sprinkdawg | 05-17-2005 12:36 AM |
I have been an SCCA Member for four years now. I can agree that the SCCA does not always handle things as efficiently as possible. The stewards do not get paid anything, and they actually pay for their membership fees. The only way to change how the SCCA operates is to volunteer. Volunteering is not asking if you can design the next auto-x course or assisting in the timing trailer. Go to your regions monthly meeting, talk to the person in charge, and tell them that you want to voulunteer. I am sure that they will have something for you to do as everyone is overworked for what they get paid (nothing). That being said, here are some of my experiences with losing control of my car.
I have been club racing for three years, and autocrossing for six. I have spun out in auto-x's, contacted other cars at 140 MPH, spun out at 120 MPH, run off track at over 100, T-boned other cars at 70, and I recently hit a tire wall at 100. All of these incidents (except the T-bone) have been my fault because I was driving over my head. Cars do not overcorrect on their own, the driver makes mistakes.
Now, to expect any financial compensation for your damaged car is ludacrious. It does not matter if the course is not to safety standards. The fact is you and you alone decided to auto-x that day. If you felt the course was unsafe, you should not have driven that event. Period.
When I autocrossed for the first time, I spun out because I was driving beyond my limits. What I have learned from all of my incidents is that the key to being fast is to build up speed by intentionally underdriving, and then pushing the car more as you become more comfortable. I, like most novices, thought that I was a great driver when I first autocrossed. I was humbled very quickly.
Any motorsport event is very tough for novices. As you become a more experienced driver, you will want to run courses that are more challenging. It would suck pretty bad if all auto-x courses were simple so that the handful of novices that were present would be more comfortable.
I have been club racing for three years, and autocrossing for six. I have spun out in auto-x's, contacted other cars at 140 MPH, spun out at 120 MPH, run off track at over 100, T-boned other cars at 70, and I recently hit a tire wall at 100. All of these incidents (except the T-bone) have been my fault because I was driving over my head. Cars do not overcorrect on their own, the driver makes mistakes.
Now, to expect any financial compensation for your damaged car is ludacrious. It does not matter if the course is not to safety standards. The fact is you and you alone decided to auto-x that day. If you felt the course was unsafe, you should not have driven that event. Period.
When I autocrossed for the first time, I spun out because I was driving beyond my limits. What I have learned from all of my incidents is that the key to being fast is to build up speed by intentionally underdriving, and then pushing the car more as you become more comfortable. I, like most novices, thought that I was a great driver when I first autocrossed. I was humbled very quickly.
Any motorsport event is very tough for novices. As you become a more experienced driver, you will want to run courses that are more challenging. It would suck pretty bad if all auto-x courses were simple so that the handful of novices that were present would be more comfortable.
| skuttledude | 05-17-2005 09:24 AM |
Just a small update:
The SWVR region had a great AutoX this past Sunday.(I got 1st in SM class and 2nd overall, Yea!!) Challenging event, well organized and fast. All SCCA course guidelines are not only met but safely exceeded. We have not had any accidents or safety issues since Mr. Corn-Pickers wreck.
Any and all newbie drivers are welcomed to the chapter.
[B]+[/B]The newbie drivers are given a thorough safety talk after and in addition to the drivers meeting.
[B]+[/B]The newbies are also given a walk-thru (5-10 mins after the normal drivers walk through) by a senior and very experienced AutoX member. Multiple walkthrous are encouraged.
[B]+[/B]The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.
[B]+[/B]Many of the newbie drivers (including a STi driver who is now rather fast) return to this chapter to race.
Just thought it was important to share this information so people know the current safety conditions that is chapter is performing.
Truly,
Davis K. Powers
[URL]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com[/URL]
The SWVR region had a great AutoX this past Sunday.(I got 1st in SM class and 2nd overall, Yea!!) Challenging event, well organized and fast. All SCCA course guidelines are not only met but safely exceeded. We have not had any accidents or safety issues since Mr. Corn-Pickers wreck.
Any and all newbie drivers are welcomed to the chapter.
[B]+[/B]The newbie drivers are given a thorough safety talk after and in addition to the drivers meeting.
[B]+[/B]The newbies are also given a walk-thru (5-10 mins after the normal drivers walk through) by a senior and very experienced AutoX member. Multiple walkthrous are encouraged.
[B]+[/B]The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.
[B]+[/B]Many of the newbie drivers (including a STi driver who is now rather fast) return to this chapter to race.
Just thought it was important to share this information so people know the current safety conditions that is chapter is performing.
Truly,
Davis K. Powers
[URL]http://www.skuttlemotorsports.com[/URL]
| fliz | 05-17-2005 09:53 AM |
[QUOTE=Davis K Powers]
[B]+[/B]The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.
[/QUOTE]
This is one area where I wish the regs were more strict.
At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.
Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.
[B]+[/B]The newbie driver MUST have a veteran AutoX'er in the car with them in their first few runs and throughout the day if they wish.
[/QUOTE]
This is one area where I wish the regs were more strict.
At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.
Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.
| robmarch | 05-17-2005 09:59 AM |
[QUOTE=sprinkdawg]It would suck pretty bad if all auto-x courses were simple so that the handful of novices that were present would be more comfortable.[/QUOTE]
agreed, but it's always good to give the most difficult sections of the course plenty of room from other objects, in my opinion. If you have a section that has to run between or against curbs, putting a very tight section before it to slow the section down and the like, while putting the more aggressive sections in areas of the course with plenty of runoff room helps. It's often more experienced drivers that are pushing the limits more that spin or go off, but they're better at recovering.
sounds like the region is taking good safety precautions and running safe events. handling novice drivers is an essential part of successful autocrosses. and, autocross is about safely learning the limits of a car, and improving driver skill near those limits, to me. More novice autocrossers means less drivers who are dangerous in panic handling situations. :)
agreed, but it's always good to give the most difficult sections of the course plenty of room from other objects, in my opinion. If you have a section that has to run between or against curbs, putting a very tight section before it to slow the section down and the like, while putting the more aggressive sections in areas of the course with plenty of runoff room helps. It's often more experienced drivers that are pushing the limits more that spin or go off, but they're better at recovering.
sounds like the region is taking good safety precautions and running safe events. handling novice drivers is an essential part of successful autocrosses. and, autocross is about safely learning the limits of a car, and improving driver skill near those limits, to me. More novice autocrossers means less drivers who are dangerous in panic handling situations. :)
| robmarch | 05-17-2005 10:03 AM |
[QUOTE=fliz]This is one area where I wish the regs were more strict.
At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.
Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.[/QUOTE]
learning the course is sometimes the hardest thing a novice has to do, especially those who aren't overdriving the car. It can take several autocrosses for someone to learn how to learn the course from the coursewalk and actually push the car, rather than trying to stay on course.
At our local events, the "Pro" class drivers work assignment is to be available to provide instruction to new drivers, and drivers are "encouraged" to have an instructor, but not required.
Twice at the last event, we had cars get off course and hold up the event. One car didn't get in between the cones until he was 3/4 of the way through the course, and the other driver took a left instead of a right and cut off a good section of the course. Luckily there weren't any incidents...but the risk was there.[/QUOTE]
learning the course is sometimes the hardest thing a novice has to do, especially those who aren't overdriving the car. It can take several autocrosses for someone to learn how to learn the course from the coursewalk and actually push the car, rather than trying to stay on course.
| 10th Warrior | 05-17-2005 11:25 AM |
[quote]agreed, but it's always good to give the most difficult sections of the course plenty of room from other objects, in my opinion.[/quote]
yeah, but the difficult part with newbies is you don't know what they'll do. its easy where to predict where someone driving a proper line and giving proper imputs to the car will spin if they get a bit too greedy. its much harder for someone who is doing who knows what out there. not that this is a bad thing, its how we learn. however, having designed a number of auto-x/rally-x courses, I can tell you that trying to take novice driving techniques into account is very challenging. Just like in this incident. Looking at the picture of where the crash happened, I wouldn't have expected anyone to hit that curb. as the person who did stated, they kept over correcting. there is just no way to predict that.
anyway, glad to hear the region has things going well again. we do a number of those newbie helping items here as well to some degree, and it seems to work pretty well.
yeah, but the difficult part with newbies is you don't know what they'll do. its easy where to predict where someone driving a proper line and giving proper imputs to the car will spin if they get a bit too greedy. its much harder for someone who is doing who knows what out there. not that this is a bad thing, its how we learn. however, having designed a number of auto-x/rally-x courses, I can tell you that trying to take novice driving techniques into account is very challenging. Just like in this incident. Looking at the picture of where the crash happened, I wouldn't have expected anyone to hit that curb. as the person who did stated, they kept over correcting. there is just no way to predict that.
anyway, glad to hear the region has things going well again. we do a number of those newbie helping items here as well to some degree, and it seems to work pretty well.
| adhowe70 | 05-17-2005 11:35 AM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]its easy where to predict where someone driving a proper line and giving proper inputs to the car will spin if they get a bit too greedy.[/QUOTE]
Well said. All Solo2 accidents are preventable, but some are less preventable than others. Course designers can control everything except the drivers.
Our biggest incident in the Oregon Region involved a car that actually crashed about 200 feet from where the driver lost control. Everyone that wasn't watching asked, "How did he end up there?" The answer... He didn't know when to quit. The guy totalled his car in the middle of a straight. Who'd have thought?
Well said. All Solo2 accidents are preventable, but some are less preventable than others. Course designers can control everything except the drivers.
Our biggest incident in the Oregon Region involved a car that actually crashed about 200 feet from where the driver lost control. Everyone that wasn't watching asked, "How did he end up there?" The answer... He didn't know when to quit. The guy totalled his car in the middle of a straight. Who'd have thought?
| robmarch | 05-17-2005 02:12 PM |
And in those cases, submitting an incident report should end up clearing the club, and confirming that they designed the course prudently. Of course it's impossible to guarantee that a driver won't try to keep his foot in and save a run, even a novice. All you can do is instruct them not to try to save a run in the course walk, provide a co-driver, and try to design the course to be wide where it's possible to carry a lot of speed.
Though it's common knowledge to experienced autocrossers, most novices have no idea how much damage a curb can do to their car if they try to save a run. Lightpoles seem to be pretty universally understood, however :)
Though it's common knowledge to experienced autocrossers, most novices have no idea how much damage a curb can do to their car if they try to save a run. Lightpoles seem to be pretty universally understood, however :)
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 05-17-2005 03:30 PM |
[QUOTE=sprinkdawg]The fact is you and you alone decided to auto-x that day. If you felt the course was unsafe, you should not have driven that event. Period.[/quote]
Hello,
sprinkdawg, what if "you and you alone" have no idea what is safe or unsafe? What if (oh the horrors) you are a complete novice and have nothing by which to judge the course? What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?
I think drivers should be responsible for their actions, but I don't think you can say that the course designer is free to do whatever he wants. If I sit and think long and hard enough, I can probably design a series of corners to completely upset just about any particular car (ie, give me some time, and I'll make a Z06-killer, and some more time and I'll add a subsequent corner that's a WRX-killer, etc.). The novice is the least likely person to be able to read the danger.
Anyway, my point is just that the rules and regulations that the SCCA has come up with are not arbitrary. They are not designed to make a fun course impossible to design. They are not designed to make a course absolutely idiot proof. They are simply a compromise between excitement, danger, fun, and safety that experience has shown to make the risk acceptable and the fun, well, enjoyable.
If you cut short margins of safety, you're taking some responsibility onto yourself. Your course has now moved the fun<->safety margin away from what the SCCA feels is "safe enough" for noobs. You should now own up to that reduced margin of safety and take some responsibility for the consequences...
Just my thoughts...
Joel
Hello,
sprinkdawg, what if "you and you alone" have no idea what is safe or unsafe? What if (oh the horrors) you are a complete novice and have nothing by which to judge the course? What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?
I think drivers should be responsible for their actions, but I don't think you can say that the course designer is free to do whatever he wants. If I sit and think long and hard enough, I can probably design a series of corners to completely upset just about any particular car (ie, give me some time, and I'll make a Z06-killer, and some more time and I'll add a subsequent corner that's a WRX-killer, etc.). The novice is the least likely person to be able to read the danger.
Anyway, my point is just that the rules and regulations that the SCCA has come up with are not arbitrary. They are not designed to make a fun course impossible to design. They are not designed to make a course absolutely idiot proof. They are simply a compromise between excitement, danger, fun, and safety that experience has shown to make the risk acceptable and the fun, well, enjoyable.
If you cut short margins of safety, you're taking some responsibility onto yourself. Your course has now moved the fun<->safety margin away from what the SCCA feels is "safe enough" for noobs. You should now own up to that reduced margin of safety and take some responsibility for the consequences...
Just my thoughts...
Joel
| jcroy66 | 05-17-2005 04:05 PM |
But I have seen no evidence that the course designer "cut short margins of safety". I don't see any picture that shows the course < 25' from solid objects. There were some sections of the course I might have wanted to see closer shots of, but given the pictures that are there, I can't say definitively that the course breaks any rules.
So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie. And simply put, the SSS should have a pretty good idea of how far the course is from any solid objects. I wouldn't expect the rookie to.
As for [QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?[/QUOTE]Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths? Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.
So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie. And simply put, the SSS should have a pretty good idea of how far the course is from any solid objects. I wouldn't expect the rookie to.
As for [QUOTE=Joel Gat, 1.8L]What if you've never driven your car beyond 5/10ths on the street (I know, it's a crazy thought), so you don't have any way of recognizing that a particular turn will cause your car to handle in a particular way?[/QUOTE]Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths? Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.
| Joel Gat, 1.8L | 05-17-2005 05:10 PM |
Hello,
[QUOTE=jcroy66]But I have seen no evidence that the course designer "cut short margins of safety".[/quote]
True. The only "evidence" I would suggest being critical about is the deletion of the discussion of the problem.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?[/quote]
Personally? The announcer was calling me 'the grinning kid'. I was driving quite poorly (tires squealing like nuts while turning a time a good 10 seconds a lap slower than other people in my class).
I was told to be careful in a particular area of the track where it was explained to me that a big mistake could make a mess of my car. I did spin out that day... in an area with a wide runoff. I drove much less hard in the "dangerous" area.
After that, I did spin out from time to time at autocrosses. I think that's one of the advantages of autocross over track events. I've never spun at a track because it's not as safe to spin on a track at track speeds and I don't have the margin of safety provided by a full cage. Autocross lets you explore the limits of your car at reasonable speeds, with minimal danger.
If there's a high-danger area, everyone, noobs or pros, should be warned of the danger, just in case it's not obvious.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.[/QUOTE]
Hahahhaha... :D But seriously, it's been said several times in this thread. Mistakes were made on both sides. Both sides need to have learned from their mistakes. It seems like both have, even though both made mistakes in dealing with their mistakes.
Joel
[QUOTE=jcroy66]But I have seen no evidence that the course designer "cut short margins of safety".[/quote]
True. The only "evidence" I would suggest being critical about is the deletion of the discussion of the problem.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?[/quote]
Personally? The announcer was calling me 'the grinning kid'. I was driving quite poorly (tires squealing like nuts while turning a time a good 10 seconds a lap slower than other people in my class).
I was told to be careful in a particular area of the track where it was explained to me that a big mistake could make a mess of my car. I did spin out that day... in an area with a wide runoff. I drove much less hard in the "dangerous" area.
After that, I did spin out from time to time at autocrosses. I think that's one of the advantages of autocross over track events. I've never spun at a track because it's not as safe to spin on a track at track speeds and I don't have the margin of safety provided by a full cage. Autocross lets you explore the limits of your car at reasonable speeds, with minimal danger.
If there's a high-danger area, everyone, noobs or pros, should be warned of the danger, just in case it's not obvious.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.[/QUOTE]
Hahahhaha... :D But seriously, it's been said several times in this thread. Mistakes were made on both sides. Both sides need to have learned from their mistakes. It seems like both have, even though both made mistakes in dealing with their mistakes.
Joel
| zzyzx | 05-17-2005 05:32 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]I can't say definitively that the course breaks any rules.[/quote]
They're guidelines, not rules. And just because some weren't "broken" doesn't necessarily mean the course was safe.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie.
[/quote]
$h!t happens. Why does it have to be "he said she said"? I think the root of this problem was the "he said she said" attitude, not really the incident itself.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?
[/quote]
I did. Should I be barned from autox for life now? I thought as experienced autox'er it was out job to help recruit and teach? I personally attend to as many newbie locals as I can, perticularly when I see they're having trouble. They don't way to crash and burn any more than the SSS wants them to.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.[/QUOTE]
Stupid for a newbie, perhaps, but not dumb. That's to say, if one lacks the skill and knowledge to pull it off, that's one thing. If, on the other hand one consistently fails to learn from their mistakes then perhaps they are too dumb to autox. I didn't see any evidence of this in this situation.
You know what sounds dumb to me? This:
[quote]
I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales.
[/quote]
And no, I'm not bagging on Karen. She very eloquently demonstrates that some sites are marginal and have a much greater chance of something bad happening. As an experienced autox'er I can assess the situation and choose not to compete. I will not assume, however, than a new person that's never autox'd before would be able to make an informed decision about this.
- Steve
They're guidelines, not rules. And just because some weren't "broken" doesn't necessarily mean the course was safe.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
So at that point, it's a "he said; she said" between a trained SSS and a rookie.
[/quote]
$h!t happens. Why does it have to be "he said she said"? I think the root of this problem was the "he said she said" attitude, not really the incident itself.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
As for Are you saying that at your very first autocross, you went out and pushed the car to 10/10ths or 11/10ths?
[/quote]
I did. Should I be barned from autox for life now? I thought as experienced autox'er it was out job to help recruit and teach? I personally attend to as many newbie locals as I can, perticularly when I see they're having trouble. They don't way to crash and burn any more than the SSS wants them to.
[QUOTE=jcroy66]
Sorry, but that just seems DUMB to me. Most newbies drive at maybe 4/10ths their first time around the track. By the end of the day, maybe they're up to 7.5/10ths. IMO someone who is so reckless that they're capable of losing it into a curb on their first day probably shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors or other sharp objects either.[/QUOTE]
Stupid for a newbie, perhaps, but not dumb. That's to say, if one lacks the skill and knowledge to pull it off, that's one thing. If, on the other hand one consistently fails to learn from their mistakes then perhaps they are too dumb to autox. I didn't see any evidence of this in this situation.
You know what sounds dumb to me? This:
[quote]
I autocrossed at a truck stop this weekend. It was such a tight course, I never got out of first gear. I could have spun and hit a truck, a jersey barrier or a concrete retaining wall between the boundary of the course and the truck scales.
[/quote]
And no, I'm not bagging on Karen. She very eloquently demonstrates that some sites are marginal and have a much greater chance of something bad happening. As an experienced autox'er I can assess the situation and choose not to compete. I will not assume, however, than a new person that's never autox'd before would be able to make an informed decision about this.
- Steve
| CamaroFS34 | 05-17-2005 06:46 PM |
[QUOTE=zzyzx]And no, I'm not bagging on Karen. She very eloquently demonstrates that some sites are marginal and have a much greater chance of something bad happening. As an experienced autox'er I can assess the situation and choose not to compete. I will not assume, however, than a new person that's never autox'd before would be able to make an informed decision about this.[/QUOTE]
Aw, c'mon now Steve, no need to mince words around me. You really think I'm just a dumb blonde, don't you? ;) ;)
Seriously, many moons ago, while I was still a scared, inconsistent, and inexperienced autocrosser, Old Dominion Region held an event at Langley Speedway, a small oval track. Part of the course was on the infield, but most of it was on the track itself. In the first heat, I saw a 5.0 Capri (Mustang) and a GTA TransAm wreck, badly. I wanted to leave, right then and there. My boyfriend at the time (who was codriving with me in my Camaro) and another friend who was driving an ASP Viper both convinced me to stay, though I said if any other cars wrecked, I was leaving.
I was so scared when I was on course, that I couldn't push the car [i]at all[/i]. I was some 7 seconds behind my boyfriend, and while I was not usually near his times at that point in my autocross "career", I wasn't usually [i]that[/i] far back.
To this day, that event gives me the willies. I think if I had it to do over again, I would have left, even knowing nothing happened to me. It just wasn't fun, driving that scared.
Karen
Aw, c'mon now Steve, no need to mince words around me. You really think I'm just a dumb blonde, don't you? ;) ;)
Seriously, many moons ago, while I was still a scared, inconsistent, and inexperienced autocrosser, Old Dominion Region held an event at Langley Speedway, a small oval track. Part of the course was on the infield, but most of it was on the track itself. In the first heat, I saw a 5.0 Capri (Mustang) and a GTA TransAm wreck, badly. I wanted to leave, right then and there. My boyfriend at the time (who was codriving with me in my Camaro) and another friend who was driving an ASP Viper both convinced me to stay, though I said if any other cars wrecked, I was leaving.
I was so scared when I was on course, that I couldn't push the car [i]at all[/i]. I was some 7 seconds behind my boyfriend, and while I was not usually near his times at that point in my autocross "career", I wasn't usually [i]that[/i] far back.
To this day, that event gives me the willies. I think if I had it to do over again, I would have left, even knowing nothing happened to me. It just wasn't fun, driving that scared.
Karen
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