| zoomfactor | 04-29-2004 01:49 PM |
<parental voice on/
If you are driving to and from events I would not put on anything that is not DOT-approved.
This is an extreme example, but... if you are involved in an accident and it becomes known that you don't have DOT-approved brakes, you stand a chance of being cancelled by your insurance company or worse...being held liable for the accident even if you are not at fault.
/parental voice off>
Info from friends in the insurance business:rolleyes:
If you are driving to and from events I would not put on anything that is not DOT-approved.
This is an extreme example, but... if you are involved in an accident and it becomes known that you don't have DOT-approved brakes, you stand a chance of being cancelled by your insurance company or worse...being held liable for the accident even if you are not at fault.
/parental voice off>
Info from friends in the insurance business:rolleyes:
| trhoppe | 04-29-2004 01:50 PM |
Biggly - The BBK stuff is lighter then stock :)
Subayai WRX - While I wholely agree with you on that Stoptech is a better system, its a matter of me being provided with a free set of wilwoods vs. paying for stoptechs. I don't want to put out any $$ as, like KC, I believe that the $$ is DEFINETLY not worth the benfit for autox.
-Tom
Subayai WRX - While I wholely agree with you on that Stoptech is a better system, its a matter of me being provided with a free set of wilwoods vs. paying for stoptechs. I don't want to put out any $$ as, like KC, I believe that the $$ is DEFINETLY not worth the benfit for autox.
-Tom
| RS_to_WRX_swap | 04-29-2004 02:53 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe[/i]
[B] He complains about the "feel" which is why I think a 6 pot blingy kit can help him. Hell, one can always use more brake feel :)
Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.
This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)
I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.
This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"
If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Duh, the contour svt stops faster. back in there day i dont think you could get a car that stops faster for 20 grand. way better tires than the wrx RE92's. the contours rotor size was a lil small so with lots and lots of braking there is fade. but its set up is perfect for auto-x. too bad they dont have traction going forward. anyone wanna buy a svt conour :(
[B] He complains about the "feel" which is why I think a 6 pot blingy kit can help him. Hell, one can always use more brake feel :)
Engaging the ABS is no problem, which is why I think that the stock brakes are good enough. I did notice that on the STi its WAY WAY harder to engage the ABS then in my car. IMHO the big front bias of the WRX locks the fronts up (confirmed by braking w/o the ABS fuse and checking my tire marks :) ). Shifting more bias towards the back with one of the blingy kits might help the feel and might convince the ABS to engage a tad later.
This all came after shawn drove a Ford Contour SVT and said "uhhh Tom, the Contour SVT has better brakes then your WRX" :) Before he drove that friggin FORD everything was OK cause he was only comparing WRX to Type R :lol: ;)
I have a G-tech meter, so I can do some before and after brake testing if I do go with that bling Wilwood 6 potter to make sure that its working better and "feeling" better.
This is a quote from shawn
"Seriously the brake upgrade would be cool if it's "free" but it isn't a "must have" item to be competitive. I'm already starting to calibrate my brain to the braking capability of your car. It isn't really a problem just what sticks out as the major difference between the WRX and the Type R"
If we can get a sponsor to help us, or get one cheap used, we';ll try it. Otherwise, I'll have shawn calibrate his brain more and just enjoy the already pretty damn good (THANKS CARBOTECH!!) brakes that the car has :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
Duh, the contour svt stops faster. back in there day i dont think you could get a car that stops faster for 20 grand. way better tires than the wrx RE92's. the contours rotor size was a lil small so with lots and lots of braking there is fade. but its set up is perfect for auto-x. too bad they dont have traction going forward. anyone wanna buy a svt conour :(
| NeoteriX | 04-29-2004 05:05 PM |
Did anyone have GTech or any other readings on the difference on 60-0 braking with and without the H6 / Legacy rear rotor upgrade? I'm curious to see the tangible differences.
| RebelINS | 04-29-2004 06:07 PM |
I know what you guys are saying about brake feel. I have been stuggling with that on my RS for a while. I just hate that my girlfriends econobox Mazda Protege LX has way better pedal feel then my car.
I think the dual stage setup is the problem, which is why I just learn to live with my crappy pedal feel. I don't think that even if I dropped a ton of money on some bling blinging brakes I would be happy with the feel in comparison to other cars. So IMO it's either deal with it, or move to SM, so I just deal with it.
-Wes
I think the dual stage setup is the problem, which is why I just learn to live with my crappy pedal feel. I don't think that even if I dropped a ton of money on some bling blinging brakes I would be happy with the feel in comparison to other cars. So IMO it's either deal with it, or move to SM, so I just deal with it.
-Wes
| Silver Bullet 02 | 04-29-2004 06:31 PM |
I would be more interested in this single stage booster that KC mentioned. Anyone using one? Anyone have any more info about it? I would also like to see some test data with the Legacy rear brake setup. That would be a nice way to shift bias rearward without having to use 17" wheels.
My main complaints about the WRX brakes are feel and the ice mode of the ABS which hits me on certian courses. I also get inconsistent braking results. In my tests, over 5 stops I would get a +/- 0.2 g variation on the same surface using the same stopping technique. If you don't left foot brake then there's not much you can do to lessen that dead time between accelerating and decellerating that the WRX brakes forces you to have. It seems to take too long from the time you start pressing the pedal to the time you get into serious decelleration. Take your car somewhere safe and try switching between the gas and brake several times and what I'm talking about will become very apparent if you aren't already aware of it.
Seems to me the ultimate brake setup would give you
1. Linear modulation
2. A very short time between the time you start pressing the pedal until you get to full braking force. I wonder how R&T tests brakes. Is it done robotically by tripping a actuator at a specific spot and measuring the time between trip and stop or do they do it the old fashioned way and use a driver sighting a marker cone?
3. More rear bias
Not necessarilly in that order
My main complaints about the WRX brakes are feel and the ice mode of the ABS which hits me on certian courses. I also get inconsistent braking results. In my tests, over 5 stops I would get a +/- 0.2 g variation on the same surface using the same stopping technique. If you don't left foot brake then there's not much you can do to lessen that dead time between accelerating and decellerating that the WRX brakes forces you to have. It seems to take too long from the time you start pressing the pedal to the time you get into serious decelleration. Take your car somewhere safe and try switching between the gas and brake several times and what I'm talking about will become very apparent if you aren't already aware of it.
Seems to me the ultimate brake setup would give you
1. Linear modulation
2. A very short time between the time you start pressing the pedal until you get to full braking force. I wonder how R&T tests brakes. Is it done robotically by tripping a actuator at a specific spot and measuring the time between trip and stop or do they do it the old fashioned way and use a driver sighting a marker cone?
3. More rear bias
Not necessarilly in that order
| GravelRash | 04-29-2004 08:28 PM |
I'm surprised no one's mentioned the firewall flex issue; is the MRT booster brace legal in STX? If so, while it won't likely do much for initial application of the brakes, it will definitely affect deeper travel and feel. A friend bought one, and before he went to the trouble to install it we checked out the flex.
I was skeptical before, but not any more; flex, and movement of the entire MS/booster assembly, was very noticeable, even with moderate pedal pressure. Iirc it max'd out at nearly 1/8"...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hmmm...we should switch cars sometime and compare brakes. I've just got the 4-pots, with SST lines, and Ultimates, all around. And the difference in feel is like night and day compared to stock :D So much so that I completely forgot about trying to adjust the pedal travel to get the most possible play out of the system.
After the initial freeplay - [I]much[/I] less than stock - which I don't really notice on the street, the pedal is very firm, w/o being hard, and very linear.
I was skeptical before, but not any more; flex, and movement of the entire MS/booster assembly, was very noticeable, even with moderate pedal pressure. Iirc it max'd out at nearly 1/8"...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]Also, when I upgraded my front brakes to an AP setup there was an improved feel. Not huge, but its a nice side effect to go along with the increased fade resistance. Pretty much what you would expect with a stiffer caliper and smaller piston sizes. To a lesser extent similar results should occur with the Subaru 4-pots.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Hmmm...we should switch cars sometime and compare brakes. I've just got the 4-pots, with SST lines, and Ultimates, all around. And the difference in feel is like night and day compared to stock :D So much so that I completely forgot about trying to adjust the pedal travel to get the most possible play out of the system.
After the initial freeplay - [I]much[/I] less than stock - which I don't really notice on the street, the pedal is very firm, w/o being hard, and very linear.
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 12:26 PM |
Back to brakes!!
Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of
a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)
Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.
-Tom
Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of
a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)
Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.
-Tom
| sdecker | 05-06-2004 12:30 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Back to brakes!!
Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of
a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)
Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd go with the rims, Tom. Just my 2 cents. I doubt the Wilwoods (or any BBK) will be particularly helpful at autox, just IMO. On track, yeah - a totally different story. I bet you'd notice a lot more difference out of that extra rim width.
Scott
[B]Back to brakes!!
Stuff kinda panned out and I have a choice of
a) Wilwood 6 pot front, 4 pot rear WRX kits
or
b) 17x8 Rotas (17.5lbs) and new carbotech rotors all around (H6 rear)
Do I
a) Lose almost 10lbs a corner but keep the 7.5" wheels (which are lighter)
b) Say screw the brakes, make the stock system work better by getting the H6 rear and new rotors and go with 0.5" more wheel width and 2 lbs extra per wheel.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd go with the rims, Tom. Just my 2 cents. I doubt the Wilwoods (or any BBK) will be particularly helpful at autox, just IMO. On track, yeah - a totally different story. I bet you'd notice a lot more difference out of that extra rim width.
Scott
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 12:40 PM |
[quote]I bet you'd notice a lot more difference out of that extra rim width.
[/quote]
Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:
-Tom
Not sure, just asking :)
[/quote]
Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:
-Tom
Not sure, just asking :)
| DrBiggly | 05-06-2004 12:49 PM |
I'd say the brakes. How much do you think you are actually giving up by not having the 17x8" wheels?
| Fred | 05-06-2004 12:57 PM |
Let's see...
Improve brakes so you slow down a little better, and add weight to the wheels so you don't speed up quite as quickly. Sounds good to me! :D If the handling benefits of the 8" wheels don't make up that difference, maybe I can pick up 9 points at Sanford (or somewhere). :lol:
I have nothing useful to add, just happen to be bored.
:p
Improve brakes so you slow down a little better, and add weight to the wheels so you don't speed up quite as quickly. Sounds good to me! :D If the handling benefits of the 8" wheels don't make up that difference, maybe I can pick up 9 points at Sanford (or somewhere). :lol:
I have nothing useful to add, just happen to be bored.
:p
| sdecker | 05-06-2004 02:49 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:
-Tom
Not sure, just asking :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, my logic (which could very well be flawed, :p ) is based on my own observations as the owner of a BBK.
Personally, I doubt that your stopping distances will change by any significant amount. This assumes that you will run the same pads in the Wilwoods as you do in your stockers, and retain the same tires. You will have much greater fade resistance, to be sure...but that won't improve your times unless you have been consistently fading the stockers while taking all those podiums. I'm betting that's not the case. ;)
It is also possible that you could gain a tiny amount of time by the change in brake bias, if that suits your driving style...but that's pretty iffy IMHO.
An extra 1/2" of rim width would permit you to safely go up 20mm or so in tire width, right? Maybe more, in some cases? That's a lot of potential rubber I can use for more traction, stopping, and cornering power. It's 'usable' for the entire track, whereas the brakes are only effective in the braking zones (and even then, not necessarily slowing you any quicker).
The weight thing is a tough call. Who *wouldn't* want to lose 10 lbs. per corner? That could be worth a 10th or two, maybe...with you driving. With me driving? Hell, I'd never notice it.
I dunno...just some thoughts. You'll be fast as hell anyway, regardless of what you choose. :D
[B]Even though you effectively have 12lbs less per corner? :confused:
-Tom
Not sure, just asking :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Well, my logic (which could very well be flawed, :p ) is based on my own observations as the owner of a BBK.
Personally, I doubt that your stopping distances will change by any significant amount. This assumes that you will run the same pads in the Wilwoods as you do in your stockers, and retain the same tires. You will have much greater fade resistance, to be sure...but that won't improve your times unless you have been consistently fading the stockers while taking all those podiums. I'm betting that's not the case. ;)
It is also possible that you could gain a tiny amount of time by the change in brake bias, if that suits your driving style...but that's pretty iffy IMHO.
An extra 1/2" of rim width would permit you to safely go up 20mm or so in tire width, right? Maybe more, in some cases? That's a lot of potential rubber I can use for more traction, stopping, and cornering power. It's 'usable' for the entire track, whereas the brakes are only effective in the braking zones (and even then, not necessarily slowing you any quicker).
The weight thing is a tough call. Who *wouldn't* want to lose 10 lbs. per corner? That could be worth a 10th or two, maybe...with you driving. With me driving? Hell, I'd never notice it.
I dunno...just some thoughts. You'll be fast as hell anyway, regardless of what you choose. :D
| afpdl | 05-06-2004 02:51 PM |
What tires would you go to if you get the 8 inch rims?
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 02:54 PM |
Oops forgot to mention that. I would be on the same tires, as I haven't found anything that works better yet. 225/45/17 azenis.
I calculated the brake torque, I'm gaining 0.25% in the front and 0.40% in the rear. So yes, the stopping distances would not be better, so the ONLY reason to get the brakes would be to loose the weight. Looks like the stock system with H6 rears would actually work better for me :lol:
Hmmmm.......why do I have to be so damn indecisive!! :lol:
-Tom
I calculated the brake torque, I'm gaining 0.25% in the front and 0.40% in the rear. So yes, the stopping distances would not be better, so the ONLY reason to get the brakes would be to loose the weight. Looks like the stock system with H6 rears would actually work better for me :lol:
Hmmmm.......why do I have to be so damn indecisive!! :lol:
-Tom
| afpdl | 05-06-2004 02:56 PM |
I dont really see how the 8s are going to help 225s all that much, Id either lose weight or leave it alone.
| sdecker | 05-06-2004 03:00 PM |
Any ideas as to how the 8.0" vs the 7.5" rim would change the section width of your 225/45/17 Azenis?
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 03:01 PM |
[url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html[/url]
Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)
-Tom
Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)
-Tom
| afpdl | 05-06-2004 03:12 PM |
The sidewalls come out alot more but I dont see the tread getting all that much wider.
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 03:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by afpdl[/i]
[B] The sidewalls come out alot more but I dont see the tread getting all that much wider. [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed. If you look at the bottom two on the stack, they look almost identical.
I think an 8" wheel would help the 225 a *bit*, but if its worth the 2-3lbs per wheel? I dunno. :lol:
-Tom
indecisive
[B] The sidewalls come out alot more but I dont see the tread getting all that much wider. [/B][/QUOTE]
Agreed. If you look at the bottom two on the stack, they look almost identical.
I think an 8" wheel would help the 225 a *bit*, but if its worth the 2-3lbs per wheel? I dunno. :lol:
-Tom
indecisive
| sdecker | 05-06-2004 03:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B][url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html[/url]
Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
hmmm...tough call
Tom, you can't do a 245/45/17 can you? Or will that cause rubbage or throw other things out of whack?
I can see why you are in a delimma. Look at it this way -- it's a good delimma to have. :D
Scott
[B][url]http://www.sccaforums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/22/773.html[/url]
Here is what it does to a 205 on a 7" vs 7.5" wheel :)
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
hmmm...tough call
Tom, you can't do a 245/45/17 can you? Or will that cause rubbage or throw other things out of whack?
I can see why you are in a delimma. Look at it this way -- it's a good delimma to have. :D
Scott
| trhoppe | 05-06-2004 03:21 PM |
245/45/17 would kill the gearing. It would offset any good things :lol:
It doesn't *suck* to be in this dilemna, but it also wouldn't suck if someone came out and said
"uhh yea, losing 10lbs a corner, 5 of it in rotational mass of the rotor would give you 0.5 seconds on a 60 seconds course, as compared to the 0.2 seconds you would gain with your wider rims....mmmkay"
-Tom
It doesn't *suck* to be in this dilemna, but it also wouldn't suck if someone came out and said
"uhh yea, losing 10lbs a corner, 5 of it in rotational mass of the rotor would give you 0.5 seconds on a 60 seconds course, as compared to the 0.2 seconds you would gain with your wider rims....mmmkay"
-Tom
Không có nhận xét nào:
Đăng nhận xét