| Osgood30 | 01-15-2004 12:51 PM |
Help with building ice racing tire
�
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Hi all,
I am going ice racing later this month, and I am sick and tired of running my all-season tires on the lakes :P . So I have decided to attempt building bolts "X-perimental" tires for the class in AMEC ([url]www.icerace.com[/url]). The more I think about it the more questions I have though.
I am running 01 Impreza RS. I have 8 old RE92�s sitting in my basement, that�s what inspired me to make these. So here go the questions:
1. What bolts and nuts sizes do you recommend? So far I had 1/4 and 5/16 suggested, of 1 inch length.
2. I assume I would need to run a tube. Would most tire shops be able to get them? And what about some sort of lining between the bolts and the tube?
3. What about the clearance if I indeed go with stock Impreza 16inch tires, with added diameter of the tire due to bolts sticking out, will there be any fitment problems? Should I go with smaller diameter tire to begin with?
4. Would there be any problems with balancing a tire?
5. Any other tips and advice on the process of building those would be appreciated.
This is what I am talking about.
[img]http://www.wcurollerhockey.com/photos/upload/studs.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wcurollerhockey.com/photos/upload/studs2.jpg[/img]
Thanks
Alex
I am going ice racing later this month, and I am sick and tired of running my all-season tires on the lakes :P . So I have decided to attempt building bolts "X-perimental" tires for the class in AMEC ([url]www.icerace.com[/url]). The more I think about it the more questions I have though.
I am running 01 Impreza RS. I have 8 old RE92�s sitting in my basement, that�s what inspired me to make these. So here go the questions:
1. What bolts and nuts sizes do you recommend? So far I had 1/4 and 5/16 suggested, of 1 inch length.
2. I assume I would need to run a tube. Would most tire shops be able to get them? And what about some sort of lining between the bolts and the tube?
3. What about the clearance if I indeed go with stock Impreza 16inch tires, with added diameter of the tire due to bolts sticking out, will there be any fitment problems? Should I go with smaller diameter tire to begin with?
4. Would there be any problems with balancing a tire?
5. Any other tips and advice on the process of building those would be appreciated.
This is what I am talking about.
[img]http://www.wcurollerhockey.com/photos/upload/studs.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wcurollerhockey.com/photos/upload/studs2.jpg[/img]
Thanks
Alex
| Bonzo | 01-15-2004 02:13 PM |
the bottom tire looks to be studded by snowmobile push-thru stud. U can get just about any length of sled studs in just about any style. Steel, carbide tipped, sharpened or trail dull. Push thru sled studs have a flat inner surface. [url]http://www.wiem.com/[/url] peek at this site for more infos on sled studs.
I know in bikes they also line the inside of the tire with another old tire to protect the tube.
hth
I know in bikes they also line the inside of the tire with another old tire to protect the tube.
hth
| Osgood30 | 01-16-2004 10:19 AM |
thanks Bonzo,
anyone else know anything about it?
My other option is to buy tires of the size of 205/50/15 already with ice picks, (stock size is 205/55/16). Would it be ok to run this smaller tire?
anyone else know anything about it?
My other option is to buy tires of the size of 205/50/15 already with ice picks, (stock size is 205/55/16). Would it be ok to run this smaller tire?
| Osgood30 | 01-16-2004 11:52 AM |
:eek: cheapest stud I found is about a dollar, so its $600 to fill my 4 tires:o
| Bonzo | 01-16-2004 01:15 PM |
yes they aint cheap. my sled only has 192 in of 1" carbide tipped trail studs. I ahve shoosen a stainless steel bodied version. I don't usually use Woody's.
I would say just make a one angle sharpening on some 1/4x20 bolts with some bigger washers. See if u can find a button head of allen falt head bolts. Try McMaster Carr for all your parts needs. They have everything on this earth.
I would say just make a one angle sharpening on some 1/4x20 bolts with some bigger washers. See if u can find a button head of allen falt head bolts. Try McMaster Carr for all your parts needs. They have everything on this earth.
| thechickencow | 01-16-2004 01:31 PM |
Yeah, I was looking into this earlier in the fall, and I decided to pass. Too much work and actually would cost quite a bit to do the el cheapo way.
| 10th Warrior | 01-16-2004 01:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by thechickencow [/i]
[B]Yeah, I was looking into this earlier in the fall, and I decided to pass. Too much work and actually would cost quite a bit to do the el cheapo way. [/B][/QUOTE]
same here. i just went with some studdable snows and put in the longest DOT studs i could find. of course, i'm probably not going to have any time to go ice racing this year :lol:
[B]Yeah, I was looking into this earlier in the fall, and I decided to pass. Too much work and actually would cost quite a bit to do the el cheapo way. [/B][/QUOTE]
same here. i just went with some studdable snows and put in the longest DOT studs i could find. of course, i'm probably not going to have any time to go ice racing this year :lol:
| Bayley | 01-20-2004 12:10 PM |
The picture on the bottom was my most recent version of "pick" tires I made for a race on January 17th. Here are thoughts and suggestions on how everything went:
First of all, the traction of a good "pick" tire cannot be compared to anything... period!!! A well built pick tire on glare ice will hold better lateral G-forces than a racing slick on tarmac. Anyone who tries to say otherwise, has most likely never ridden in a pick tire car. While a "studded" snow tire is noticeably better than your average non-studded snow tire, a home made pick tire is an entirely different monster that is not even in the same league as something like a pre-manufactured studded snow tire. There is a company out of Sweden (I think) that makes Rally Specific Ice racing tires, but even those perform, at best, on par with an average pick tire. Also, anything labeled "Rally" demands a premium from the check book.
My tires I made cost me about $250 each. This price included everything from the wheel to the tire sealant. The first thing I needed to do was find a wheel that would work.
I decided to go with a 15" wheel on my 2004 WRX. A 15" wheel is pretty much necessary in order to gain the extra clearance caused by the protruding bolts. I wanted to make DAMN sure I wasn't going to have any bolts eating their way through my inner fenders walls. This obviously created a big problem due to the lack of inexpensive 15" rims to be found. However, I was able to convince a Group N SCCA Pro Rally friend of mine to let go of four Raceline RL-7's for $100 each. The next step was to get the lowest profile 15" tire I could find. I really wasn't too concerned about getting a narrow tire, since the race is supposed to be on glare ice. The more picks that dig into the ice, the better the traction. With that said, a wider tire isn't necessarily a bad thing for ice racing with picks. I decided to go with a set of 205/50R15 on all four corners. I was able to get Tire Rack to send me out a set for $50 per tire.
Next step was to acquire the hardware needed to produce the picks. I went with a grade five 1/4" diameter bolt that was 1 inch long. To keep the bolt in place, fender washers were used on both the inside, and outside of the tire. To secure the bolt, self locking nuts were used on the bolts. Each bolt assembly (1 bolt, 2 fender washers, 1 locking nut) came out to $0.25 per assembly. Estimating 200 bolts per tire, the price for the hardware came out to about $200. Add a $25 mounting fee per tire (forget balancing!!!) and some tire sealant (i.e. tire slime), the price comes out to about $250 a tire.
When making the tires, the first thing I did was lay out a tread pattern. I could have used any set of old, bald tires. However, since the 205/50/R15 were such a rare sized tire for my area, I had to buy new tires (at $50 a piece... no big deal). The pattern I went with was alternating rows of 2 bolts, and 3 bolts with each row paced an inch apart.
After marking off the bolt locations, I used a drill with a 1/4" bit to make the initial holes for the bolts. Next, I would take each bolt, cover it in [b]windshield adhesive[/b] then run it through the hole I recently drilled. I would usually run about 30 - 40 bolts through the tire before I would stop and put the lock nuts on and torque them down. With all the bolts in place and tightened down, I would then run the wheel and tire over to the tire shop and have them mount it. Again, balancing is NOT going to happen on these tires. It would be pointless to even try.
Once all the bolted tires are mounted, the protruding ends of the bolts need to be sharpened. The sharper the picks are, the more effective the tires become. I've seen people get a little lazy towards the end of the process and not sharpen their bolts. The results of their tires were significantly less than those of a well sharpened tire.
The way I sharpened the tires was by using a snowmobile stud sharpener. It's a really neat little tool that guys have been using for years to sharpen their studs on snowmobile tracks. It's a round cutting fixture that holds four hardened carbide (sp?) blades that fit onto the end of a drill. The cutting fixture is placed over each individual bolt and sharpened to a point. They make different angle's of sharpening tools, but I was only able to get the 45 degree tool to fit over the 1/4" diameter bolt. The 30 degree tool would not fit over the bolt (tool opening was too narrow). So all those picks you see in the second picture posted above started their life as simple 1/4" bolts, not snowmobile studs.
As far as sealing the tires, I really didn't have to do much of anything. The windshield adhesive took care of most problems from the get go. I only had one tire that was leaking any air, and that was very minimal. It would go from 30 psi to 20 psi after two days. Any pick tire that holds air for an entire race (i.e. 5 minutes) is considered to be a success by most. However, just to play safe, I dumped about 16 ounces of "Tire Slime" into each tire to guarantee a good seal. I filled the tires up to 45 psi on Thursday night, raced all day Saturday and they are still hold 45 psi as of Monday night. A tube for the tire is not needed in my opinion. Also, the rough head bolts would most likely tear apart the tube anyway.
A now, a chance to toot my own horn a little... :D
This past weekend, there was an '04 STi that had a set of studded snow tires (Hakkapalita H1's... I think) at the ice race I went to. The average tires for 4WD cars were from 75 to 65 seconds on this 1/2 mile road course. The STi put down many times between 62 and 60 seconds. Very impressive indeed. However, my picked 2004 plane Jane WRX put down a best time of 39.19 seconds... and a worse time of 40.84 seconds. There was only one vehicle (out of about 50) that was quicker than my WRX, and that was a fully prepped ice racing snowmobile. His best time was 35.89 seconds.
If you are big into ice racing, there is no other choice for tires.
First of all, the traction of a good "pick" tire cannot be compared to anything... period!!! A well built pick tire on glare ice will hold better lateral G-forces than a racing slick on tarmac. Anyone who tries to say otherwise, has most likely never ridden in a pick tire car. While a "studded" snow tire is noticeably better than your average non-studded snow tire, a home made pick tire is an entirely different monster that is not even in the same league as something like a pre-manufactured studded snow tire. There is a company out of Sweden (I think) that makes Rally Specific Ice racing tires, but even those perform, at best, on par with an average pick tire. Also, anything labeled "Rally" demands a premium from the check book.
My tires I made cost me about $250 each. This price included everything from the wheel to the tire sealant. The first thing I needed to do was find a wheel that would work.
I decided to go with a 15" wheel on my 2004 WRX. A 15" wheel is pretty much necessary in order to gain the extra clearance caused by the protruding bolts. I wanted to make DAMN sure I wasn't going to have any bolts eating their way through my inner fenders walls. This obviously created a big problem due to the lack of inexpensive 15" rims to be found. However, I was able to convince a Group N SCCA Pro Rally friend of mine to let go of four Raceline RL-7's for $100 each. The next step was to get the lowest profile 15" tire I could find. I really wasn't too concerned about getting a narrow tire, since the race is supposed to be on glare ice. The more picks that dig into the ice, the better the traction. With that said, a wider tire isn't necessarily a bad thing for ice racing with picks. I decided to go with a set of 205/50R15 on all four corners. I was able to get Tire Rack to send me out a set for $50 per tire.
Next step was to acquire the hardware needed to produce the picks. I went with a grade five 1/4" diameter bolt that was 1 inch long. To keep the bolt in place, fender washers were used on both the inside, and outside of the tire. To secure the bolt, self locking nuts were used on the bolts. Each bolt assembly (1 bolt, 2 fender washers, 1 locking nut) came out to $0.25 per assembly. Estimating 200 bolts per tire, the price for the hardware came out to about $200. Add a $25 mounting fee per tire (forget balancing!!!) and some tire sealant (i.e. tire slime), the price comes out to about $250 a tire.
When making the tires, the first thing I did was lay out a tread pattern. I could have used any set of old, bald tires. However, since the 205/50/R15 were such a rare sized tire for my area, I had to buy new tires (at $50 a piece... no big deal). The pattern I went with was alternating rows of 2 bolts, and 3 bolts with each row paced an inch apart.
After marking off the bolt locations, I used a drill with a 1/4" bit to make the initial holes for the bolts. Next, I would take each bolt, cover it in [b]windshield adhesive[/b] then run it through the hole I recently drilled. I would usually run about 30 - 40 bolts through the tire before I would stop and put the lock nuts on and torque them down. With all the bolts in place and tightened down, I would then run the wheel and tire over to the tire shop and have them mount it. Again, balancing is NOT going to happen on these tires. It would be pointless to even try.
Once all the bolted tires are mounted, the protruding ends of the bolts need to be sharpened. The sharper the picks are, the more effective the tires become. I've seen people get a little lazy towards the end of the process and not sharpen their bolts. The results of their tires were significantly less than those of a well sharpened tire.
The way I sharpened the tires was by using a snowmobile stud sharpener. It's a really neat little tool that guys have been using for years to sharpen their studs on snowmobile tracks. It's a round cutting fixture that holds four hardened carbide (sp?) blades that fit onto the end of a drill. The cutting fixture is placed over each individual bolt and sharpened to a point. They make different angle's of sharpening tools, but I was only able to get the 45 degree tool to fit over the 1/4" diameter bolt. The 30 degree tool would not fit over the bolt (tool opening was too narrow). So all those picks you see in the second picture posted above started their life as simple 1/4" bolts, not snowmobile studs.
As far as sealing the tires, I really didn't have to do much of anything. The windshield adhesive took care of most problems from the get go. I only had one tire that was leaking any air, and that was very minimal. It would go from 30 psi to 20 psi after two days. Any pick tire that holds air for an entire race (i.e. 5 minutes) is considered to be a success by most. However, just to play safe, I dumped about 16 ounces of "Tire Slime" into each tire to guarantee a good seal. I filled the tires up to 45 psi on Thursday night, raced all day Saturday and they are still hold 45 psi as of Monday night. A tube for the tire is not needed in my opinion. Also, the rough head bolts would most likely tear apart the tube anyway.
A now, a chance to toot my own horn a little... :D
This past weekend, there was an '04 STi that had a set of studded snow tires (Hakkapalita H1's... I think) at the ice race I went to. The average tires for 4WD cars were from 75 to 65 seconds on this 1/2 mile road course. The STi put down many times between 62 and 60 seconds. Very impressive indeed. However, my picked 2004 plane Jane WRX put down a best time of 39.19 seconds... and a worse time of 40.84 seconds. There was only one vehicle (out of about 50) that was quicker than my WRX, and that was a fully prepped ice racing snowmobile. His best time was 35.89 seconds.
If you are big into ice racing, there is no other choice for tires.
| Bayley | 01-20-2004 12:14 PM |
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce86399285d91d0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937e184e0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937999790000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937e184e0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937999790000001610[/img]
| TimStevens | 01-20-2004 12:27 PM |
Thanks for the write-up! Very interesting to hear the process. Looking forward to getting on the ice in two weeks, however unfortunately with non-studded tires. :(
Oh well, more grip does not necessarily equal more fun ;)
Oh well, more grip does not necessarily equal more fun ;)
| Osgood30 | 01-20-2004 12:41 PM |
Wow Bayley, thanks
Awsome write up indeed.
The one thing I was thinking about is when you drill through the tire, you will most likely drill through the belts. Would like be of any concern?
Awsome write up indeed.
The one thing I was thinking about is when you drill through the tire, you will most likely drill through the belts. Would like be of any concern?
| Osgood30 | 01-20-2004 12:55 PM |
and also, you said that you did not even ballance them. Was the vibration bad when you were driving?
| Bonzo | 01-20-2004 01:11 PM |
Very nice informative reply.
I second the point about picks in ice yield better traction than tarmac and slicks.
They simply do not slide or move.
One little rule sled ppl always adhere to when studding tracks is to have as many scratch lines as possible. In other words do not put the studs in the same repeating pattern.
I second the point about picks in ice yield better traction than tarmac and slicks.
They simply do not slide or move.
One little rule sled ppl always adhere to when studding tracks is to have as many scratch lines as possible. In other words do not put the studs in the same repeating pattern.
| Bayley | 01-20-2004 01:29 PM |
Driving on picks is an experience unlike anything else. It is a very awkward feeling. It will constantly feel like the tires are flat. Basically, the picks will pull the tires around looking for the deepest ice. On perfectly glare ice, it's not that bad. However, on a rutted up course, the tires are going to pull in all sorts of directions. You need to be a very aggressive driver with a heavy hand on the wheel to make these work for you.
One thing that does suck about these tires is the snow traction. A lot of the rubber tired guys were intentionally running into the snowbanks on the course in effort to give themselves more traction. While this helps for the rubber tire guys, it really hurts the pick guys. If the picks don't dig down into ice (i.e. riding on top of snow) they will not hook up any better than your average snow tire. Going from +1G of lateral grip to < 0.05 G's on a snow surface at +75 mph can quickly come a handful. Especially if the snow patch is small and quickly followed by more ice. It's sort of ironic how a picked tire driver responds the exact opposite to a rubber tire driver (Picks: ice = good, snow = bad).
As far as vibrations, it's really hard to tell. You're beating on the car so bad, the only noises vibrations you are really listening for are the fatal ones: BANG! CLANK - CLANK - CLANK! SKREEETCH!!!
I'll hopefully have some picture from this past weekends event pretty soon here (I left my camera at home today! ) :rolleyes:
One thing that does suck about these tires is the snow traction. A lot of the rubber tired guys were intentionally running into the snowbanks on the course in effort to give themselves more traction. While this helps for the rubber tire guys, it really hurts the pick guys. If the picks don't dig down into ice (i.e. riding on top of snow) they will not hook up any better than your average snow tire. Going from +1G of lateral grip to < 0.05 G's on a snow surface at +75 mph can quickly come a handful. Especially if the snow patch is small and quickly followed by more ice. It's sort of ironic how a picked tire driver responds the exact opposite to a rubber tire driver (Picks: ice = good, snow = bad).
As far as vibrations, it's really hard to tell. You're beating on the car so bad, the only noises vibrations you are really listening for are the fatal ones: BANG! CLANK - CLANK - CLANK! SKREEETCH!!!
I'll hopefully have some picture from this past weekends event pretty soon here (I left my camera at home today! ) :rolleyes:
| TimStevens | 01-20-2004 01:45 PM |
What kind of speeds did you get up to with those tires Bayley? I'm sure they're not exactly W-rated any longer :)
| Burnout | 01-20-2004 01:50 PM |
Bayley those tires look awesome, just a guess that you put some serious time into them. I would love to see some video of your car in action.
| cjm04WRX | 01-20-2004 02:11 PM |
Don't slip and fall on those!!!!!!!:eek:
| Bayley | 01-20-2004 03:11 PM |
Each tire probably took about 5 hours to make including sharpening time. I started construction on them Monday after work, and had the final tire sharpened by Saturday night. So I guess 20 hours sounds about right.
As for top speed, the course was pretty slow and tight and only 1/2 mile in length, but I still think I saw 75 mph in a few areas (2nd gear hitting rev limiter).
Supposedly, a few videos were taken of me. Hhopefully I'll be getting them e-mailed to me soon. I'll post more info as I get them.
As for top speed, the course was pretty slow and tight and only 1/2 mile in length, but I still think I saw 75 mph in a few areas (2nd gear hitting rev limiter).
Supposedly, a few videos were taken of me. Hhopefully I'll be getting them e-mailed to me soon. I'll post more info as I get them.
| hillman | 01-21-2004 11:06 AM |
A note, that I discovered as I was looking into making my own tires; make sure you can find someone to mount them. It is illegal for a shop to mount any studded tires in Illinois, for example, and even my friends who do all my race tire mounting would not risk the penalty.
I wound up buying a set, that are made with ~600 [url=http://www.denniskirk.com]Dennis Kirk[/url] ice screws per tire. They're about $.05 a piece, depending on length.
[img]http://planet-torque.com/garage/studs.jpg[/img]
Not nearly the protrusion of the bolt tires, but they work too, and should be easier to make, if I ever need to make a set.
Here's what a run on them looks like, in a 135hp MR2. I was near the top of 3rd gear, which is 70-odd mph.
[url]http://planet-torque.com/ms/wag011104/fastest.wmv[/url]
Actually, that run is on three studded tires, and a Blizzak on the right-front, which is a long story.
I wound up buying a set, that are made with ~600 [url=http://www.denniskirk.com]Dennis Kirk[/url] ice screws per tire. They're about $.05 a piece, depending on length.
[img]http://planet-torque.com/garage/studs.jpg[/img]
Not nearly the protrusion of the bolt tires, but they work too, and should be easier to make, if I ever need to make a set.
Here's what a run on them looks like, in a 135hp MR2. I was near the top of 3rd gear, which is 70-odd mph.
[url]http://planet-torque.com/ms/wag011104/fastest.wmv[/url]
Actually, that run is on three studded tires, and a Blizzak on the right-front, which is a long story.
| Bayley | 01-22-2004 09:55 AM |
Hey Hillman,
Did you buy those tire off Soren? I believe those are the old tires he used to run on his MR2. He tried a set of pick tires this year using get by spares as the tire donors, but had a difficult time holding air.
As for screws, I agree that "Cold Cutters" (screws sold by Dennis Kirk) are a more economical option for ice tires. It's also a much moe forgiving design when transitioning from ice to snow and vice versa. This is what I used to run on my old '91 Eagle Talon. Get by spares with 250 Cold Cutters in each tire.
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df03b3127cce8758e71728ee0000001610[/img]
Did you buy those tire off Soren? I believe those are the old tires he used to run on his MR2. He tried a set of pick tires this year using get by spares as the tire donors, but had a difficult time holding air.
As for screws, I agree that "Cold Cutters" (screws sold by Dennis Kirk) are a more economical option for ice tires. It's also a much moe forgiving design when transitioning from ice to snow and vice versa. This is what I used to run on my old '91 Eagle Talon. Get by spares with 250 Cold Cutters in each tire.
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df03b3127cce8758e71728ee0000001610[/img]
| hillman | 01-22-2004 06:41 PM |
[quote]
Did you buy those tire off Soren?
[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]
He tried a set of pick tires this year using get by spares as the tire donors, but had a difficult time holding air.
[/quote]
A couple of these tires don't hold very long either, although they should.
[quote]
are a more economical option for ice tires
[/quote]
Absolutely, you can build these for about $40/tire plus your time, not including a set of tires.
Did you buy those tire off Soren?
[/quote]
Yes.
[quote]
He tried a set of pick tires this year using get by spares as the tire donors, but had a difficult time holding air.
[/quote]
A couple of these tires don't hold very long either, although they should.
[quote]
are a more economical option for ice tires
[/quote]
Absolutely, you can build these for about $40/tire plus your time, not including a set of tires.
| Ice racer | 05-28-2004 10:31 PM |
Hello Dave,
It's Mike K. here from A.M.E.C.
Don't ask how a Nissan guy ended up here on a Subaru website, but ice racing surely has something to do with it. ;)
I see pieces of the puzzle coming together here. Alex from PA. came to our "Studs on Ice" trials this past Feb., and ran the tires he presumably built from the feedback and inspiration of this thread. He ran real well and finished second in class.
Great video clip, and nice driving as well! [IMG]http://www.v8buick.com/images/smilies/xyxthumbs.gif[/IMG]
It's Mike K. here from A.M.E.C.
Don't ask how a Nissan guy ended up here on a Subaru website, but ice racing surely has something to do with it. ;)
I see pieces of the puzzle coming together here. Alex from PA. came to our "Studs on Ice" trials this past Feb., and ran the tires he presumably built from the feedback and inspiration of this thread. He ran real well and finished second in class.
Great video clip, and nice driving as well! [IMG]http://www.v8buick.com/images/smilies/xyxthumbs.gif[/IMG]
| fliz | 12-08-2005 09:36 AM |
I'm getting ready to build a set of tires for the season, and had a couple questions.
Bayley, how are the bolts holding up?
I'm trying to decide between Snowmobile push-through type studs & stainless bolts w/ washers. The snowmobile studs are about twice the price, but come pre-sharpened & are carbide tipped, which will help with wear.
Also, where did you find a stud sharpener? I've googled & asked at a snowmobile shop, and gotten blank stares in both places.
Bayley, how are the bolts holding up?
I'm trying to decide between Snowmobile push-through type studs & stainless bolts w/ washers. The snowmobile studs are about twice the price, but come pre-sharpened & are carbide tipped, which will help with wear.
Also, where did you find a stud sharpener? I've googled & asked at a snowmobile shop, and gotten blank stares in both places.
| Patrick L | 12-08-2005 09:52 AM |
[QUOTE=hillman] I wound up buying a set, that are made with ~600 [url=http://www.denniskirk.com]Dennis Kirk[/url] ice screws per tire. They're about $.05 a piece, depending on length.[/QUOTE]
I would take these and 4 Impreza spare tires as they are narrow. I bet you could find a bunch of spare tires out there for sale.
I would take these and 4 Impreza spare tires as they are narrow. I bet you could find a bunch of spare tires out there for sale.
| Bayley | 12-08-2005 11:36 AM |
[QUOTE=fliz]I'm getting ready to build a set of tires for the season, and had a couple questions.
Bayley, how are the bolts holding up?
I'm trying to decide between Snowmobile push-through type studs & stainless bolts w/ washers. The snowmobile studs are about twice the price, but come pre-sharpened & are carbide tipped, which will help with wear.
Also, where did you find a stud sharpener? I've googled & asked at a snowmobile shop, and gotten blank stares in both places.[/QUOTE]
I think I'm going to run these tires for one more winter then retire them. They are holding up very well. Some (now most) of the bolts have surface rust but they still function just as well.
You can find snowmobile stud sharpeners as [url=http://www.denniskirk.com/]Dennis Kirk Racing[/url]. I used the 45 degree sharpener. The 30 degree wouldn't fit over the 3/8 inch bolt. :(
Bayley, how are the bolts holding up?
I'm trying to decide between Snowmobile push-through type studs & stainless bolts w/ washers. The snowmobile studs are about twice the price, but come pre-sharpened & are carbide tipped, which will help with wear.
Also, where did you find a stud sharpener? I've googled & asked at a snowmobile shop, and gotten blank stares in both places.[/QUOTE]
I think I'm going to run these tires for one more winter then retire them. They are holding up very well. Some (now most) of the bolts have surface rust but they still function just as well.
You can find snowmobile stud sharpeners as [url=http://www.denniskirk.com/]Dennis Kirk Racing[/url]. I used the 45 degree sharpener. The 30 degree wouldn't fit over the 3/8 inch bolt. :(
| fliz | 12-08-2005 01:45 PM |
Wow, those are expensive!
I ended up ordering black-coated alloy button top cap screws, nylon locking jam nuts, and fender washers. Came out to about $.30 a stud, or about a third of the price of snowmobile studs.
I'll probably run a couple races as is before I decide to drop the cash on a sharpener. I might also just take a grinding wheel and cut them off on an angle. I don't think it makes a difference if the point is round, as long as it's pointy.
I ended up ordering black-coated alloy button top cap screws, nylon locking jam nuts, and fender washers. Came out to about $.30 a stud, or about a third of the price of snowmobile studs.
I'll probably run a couple races as is before I decide to drop the cash on a sharpener. I might also just take a grinding wheel and cut them off on an angle. I don't think it makes a difference if the point is round, as long as it's pointy.
| Homemade WRX | 12-08-2005 09:54 PM |
[QUOTE=Top_Dog]I would take these and 4 Impreza spare tires as they are narrow. I bet you could find a bunch of spare tires out there for sale.[/QUOTE]
I want 4 spares for fun, and I don't have ice :devil:
[QUOTE=fliz] I don't think it makes a difference if the point is round, as long as it's pointy.[/QUOTE]
it does make a difference...think
[img]http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/images/im_xenoclearpair.jpg[/img]
vs.
[img]http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/10307%20CROWNED%20FACE%20HAMMER.jpg[/img]
for climbing and ice wall....which grips better?
I want 4 spares for fun, and I don't have ice :devil:
[QUOTE=fliz] I don't think it makes a difference if the point is round, as long as it's pointy.[/QUOTE]
it does make a difference...think
[img]http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/images/im_xenoclearpair.jpg[/img]
vs.
[img]http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/10307%20CROWNED%20FACE%20HAMMER.jpg[/img]
for climbing and ice wall....which grips better?
| fliz | 12-08-2005 11:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Homemade WRX]I want 4 spares for fun, and I don't have ice :devil:
it does make a difference...think
[img]http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/images/im_xenoclearpair.jpg[/img]
vs.
[img]http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/10307%20CROWNED%20FACE%20HAMMER.jpg[/img]
for climbing and ice wall....which grips better?[/QUOTE]
Not what I meant...
I meant round as in sharpened like a pencil vs. flat as in sharpened like a razor blade. I'm trying to avoid spending $70 on a stud sharpener if I can get the same effect with a cutoff wheel.
Oh, and I wouldn't trust Subaru spare wheels to hold up for very long. Some guys in Chicago mounted a set of Michelin rally ice studded tires on four spare tire rims last year, and bent two of them in half at the first event. After that they just stretched the tires onto stock wheels and had no problems.
it does make a difference...think
[img]http://www.v12outdoor.com/catalog/images/im_xenoclearpair.jpg[/img]
vs.
[img]http://www.kctools.com.au/images/TOOLS/TOOL%20JPEGS/TOOL%20JPEGS%20INC%20DESCRIPTION/10307%20CROWNED%20FACE%20HAMMER.jpg[/img]
for climbing and ice wall....which grips better?[/QUOTE]
Not what I meant...
I meant round as in sharpened like a pencil vs. flat as in sharpened like a razor blade. I'm trying to avoid spending $70 on a stud sharpener if I can get the same effect with a cutoff wheel.
Oh, and I wouldn't trust Subaru spare wheels to hold up for very long. Some guys in Chicago mounted a set of Michelin rally ice studded tires on four spare tire rims last year, and bent two of them in half at the first event. After that they just stretched the tires onto stock wheels and had no problems.
| Homemade WRX | 12-09-2005 07:29 AM |
oh, chisel vs. ice pic basically...gotcha...
| Bonzo | 12-09-2005 09:15 AM |
A good early ice season here has given me the itch to get back on 4 wheels this winter.
I guess I will need to find some used or new steelies for the good ole hand-me-down GT wagon. :D
I guess I will need to find some used or new steelies for the good ole hand-me-down GT wagon. :D
| fliz | 12-11-2005 01:24 PM |
[quote=Bayley]windshield adhesive [/quote]
You forgot to mention that you should wear gloves when working with this crap.
I'm did the first tire barehanded yesterday...My hands (& everything I touched yesterday) are covered with nasty black crap.
I'm an idiot. :(
You forgot to mention that you should wear gloves when working with this crap.
I'm did the first tire barehanded yesterday...My hands (& everything I touched yesterday) are covered with nasty black crap.
I'm an idiot. :(
| Bayley | 12-11-2005 09:26 PM |
[QUOTE=fliz]You forgot to mention that you should wear gloves when working with this crap.
I'm did the first tire barehanded yesterday...My hands (& everything I touched yesterday) are covered with nasty black crap.
I'm an idiot. :([/QUOTE]
Oh yeah... don't forget to wear gloves. :D
Also, the guys at the tire shop are much more willing to mount the tires BEFORE you sharpen them up. :eek:
I'm did the first tire barehanded yesterday...My hands (& everything I touched yesterday) are covered with nasty black crap.
I'm an idiot. :([/QUOTE]
Oh yeah... don't forget to wear gloves. :D
Also, the guys at the tire shop are much more willing to mount the tires BEFORE you sharpen them up. :eek:
| fliz | 12-11-2005 10:02 PM |
I remembered the gloves today. MUCH better. The sweat from my hands even took off most of the adhesive from yesterday.
Three down, one to go.
Unfortunately, I screwed up drilling the pattern (I did 3 across & 4 across), and ended up with two 3-3 rows next to each other. I hope the missing bolt doesn't throw the balance off too much.
I'm probably going to ask thechickencow to help me mount the tires back up. The tires are 205/45/16, so they've got VERY short, stiff sidewalls. I felt sorry for the kid they had trying to dismount the tires Saturday morning. It took him about a half hour to take four tires off the rims. They only charge $2/tire, but the machine is at least 30 years old.
Three down, one to go.
Unfortunately, I screwed up drilling the pattern (I did 3 across & 4 across), and ended up with two 3-3 rows next to each other. I hope the missing bolt doesn't throw the balance off too much.
I'm probably going to ask thechickencow to help me mount the tires back up. The tires are 205/45/16, so they've got VERY short, stiff sidewalls. I felt sorry for the kid they had trying to dismount the tires Saturday morning. It took him about a half hour to take four tires off the rims. They only charge $2/tire, but the machine is at least 30 years old.
| thechickencow | 12-11-2005 10:21 PM |
Hey, thats me.
| ReZDoG | 12-11-2005 10:33 PM |
yeah.. I'm now in the market for ice tres.. :D Just got me a 88 Chevy nova.. :D
| davis10 | 12-12-2005 12:02 AM |
[QUOTE=Bayley][img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce86399285d91d0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937e184e0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937999790000001610[/img][/QUOTE]
damn thoes things are so mean looking id love to see the look on the face of whoever you took them to to et them mounted
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937e184e0000001610[/img]
[img]http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b4df32b3127cce8639937999790000001610[/img][/QUOTE]
damn thoes things are so mean looking id love to see the look on the face of whoever you took them to to et them mounted
| Bayley | 12-12-2005 03:46 PM |
[QUOTE=fliz]Unfortunately, I screwed up drilling the pattern (I did 3 across & 4 across), and ended up with two 3-3 rows next to each other. I hope the missing bolt doesn't throw the balance off too much.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I got a couple rows like that. It's no big deal. you aren't seriously going to try and balance these things... are you? :huh:
Not sure if you've even driven a true "spiked" tire before, but the ride is pretty damn rough. I'd bet you wouldn't notice a 5 lbs counter weight on the lip of one tire. :eek:
Yeah, I got a couple rows like that. It's no big deal. you aren't seriously going to try and balance these things... are you? :huh:
Not sure if you've even driven a true "spiked" tire before, but the ride is pretty damn rough. I'd bet you wouldn't notice a 5 lbs counter weight on the lip of one tire. :eek:
| Kincaid Racing | 12-12-2005 04:28 PM |
Looks like fun!
�
�
"I like to drive around with my Ice-spikes on all year It's a little noisy but the traction is un beatable!" :D
What is the estimated grand total for the setup?
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?
What is the estimated grand total for the setup?
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?
| Mikeyrad | 12-12-2005 09:34 PM |
So how are the ice screws held in? I can see that the bolts are secured pretty well in the tire but there isn't much info on the screw tires. RallyXI found a site that has 1,000 Kold Kutters for $80. That would be the ticket price-wise
| fliz | 12-12-2005 10:33 PM |
[QUOTE=Mikeyrad]So how are the ice screws held in? I can see that the bolts are secured pretty well in the tire but there isn't much info on the screw tires. RallyXI found a site that has 1,000 Kold Kutters for $80. That would be the ticket price-wise[/QUOTE]
One site I found recommends using drywall screws pushed through from the inside. I'd be worried about them moving around too much and losing air, or pushing into the tire. Also, you might want to check with your organizing body. One of the groups that runs around here doesn't allow screw tires because they can come out and then puncture tires on course.
Bayley - No, I'm not going to balance anything. I haven't ridden in a spiked tired car, so I have no idea what to expect in terms of ride. I'm sure it will be pretty gnarly, especially if the course is setup like last year. I was hitting 65 on snow tires.
My costs so far:
Steel Rims: $100
Closeout Yokohama tires from Sears (205/45/16): $240
Hardware(112 bolts/tire): $130
Windshield adhesive: $15
Stuff I still need:
Tire Slime: ?
Sharpener: $70
Gold paint for wheels (gotta have the bling!)
One site I found recommends using drywall screws pushed through from the inside. I'd be worried about them moving around too much and losing air, or pushing into the tire. Also, you might want to check with your organizing body. One of the groups that runs around here doesn't allow screw tires because they can come out and then puncture tires on course.
Bayley - No, I'm not going to balance anything. I haven't ridden in a spiked tired car, so I have no idea what to expect in terms of ride. I'm sure it will be pretty gnarly, especially if the course is setup like last year. I was hitting 65 on snow tires.
My costs so far:
Steel Rims: $100
Closeout Yokohama tires from Sears (205/45/16): $240
Hardware(112 bolts/tire): $130
Windshield adhesive: $15
Stuff I still need:
Tire Slime: ?
Sharpener: $70
Gold paint for wheels (gotta have the bling!)
| the-moss | 12-13-2005 01:54 AM |
Don't use the koldkutters unless you are sure they are not going all the way through the tire. I used them last year, I put around 460 in each tire (235/45 R17) and they worked awesome, until they started pulling out. Once that happened I had no way of keeping air in the tires. Each one was dipped in polyurethane adhesive before I screwed it in. I think that is the same stuff as the windshield adhesive you are talking about.
Someone mentioned that they thought screws would move around more than bolts. Typically screw tires have a lot higher count than bolt tires, around 4 times more for the same sized tire, so each screw has to handle around 1/4 of the force of each bolt, which makes me think that they would move around less since there is less of a force on each screw. Also the bolts tend to stick out farther than the screws so there is less of a moment on each screw, leading me to beleive the bolt is going to be even more prone to moving around.
Someone mentioned that they thought screws would move around more than bolts. Typically screw tires have a lot higher count than bolt tires, around 4 times more for the same sized tire, so each screw has to handle around 1/4 of the force of each bolt, which makes me think that they would move around less since there is less of a force on each screw. Also the bolts tend to stick out farther than the screws so there is less of a moment on each screw, leading me to beleive the bolt is going to be even more prone to moving around.
| the-moss | 12-13-2005 01:56 AM |
Fliz, I can probably get you a stud sharpener on the cheap.. Let me know if you want one.
| Penguinking | 12-13-2005 03:02 AM |
hmmm....for us warm weather folks, think those'll hold up good in dirt/grass? ^^
| Tensen | 12-13-2005 03:08 AM |
[QUOTE=Kincaid Racing]
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?[/QUOTE]
ask and ye shall receive..
[URL=http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133[/URL]
ramana on ice...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6275.jpg[/img]
an interesting tire...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6379.jpg[/img]
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?[/QUOTE]
ask and ye shall receive..
[URL=http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133[/URL]
ramana on ice...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6275.jpg[/img]
an interesting tire...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6379.jpg[/img]
| wickedscooby | 12-13-2005 04:18 AM |
mad max beyond thunderdome
| Bayley | 12-13-2005 08:13 AM |
[url=http://icerace.shocauto.com/video/Jeremy-Andy_WRX_start.MPG]Short Video 1[/url]
[url=http://icerace.shocauto.com/video/Jeremy-Andy_WRX_start_dark.MPG]Short Video 2[/url]
[url=http://icerace.shocauto.com/video/Jeremy-Andy_WRX_finish.MPG]Short Movie 3[/url]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley2_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley4_Small.jpg[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley5_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Chevette_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley7_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley8_Small.JPG[/img]
(which one of these... not like the other?)
[url=http://icerace.shocauto.com/video/Jeremy-Andy_WRX_start_dark.MPG]Short Video 2[/url]
[url=http://icerace.shocauto.com/video/Jeremy-Andy_WRX_finish.MPG]Short Movie 3[/url]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley2_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley4_Small.jpg[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley5_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Chevette_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley7_Small.JPG[/img]
[img]http://shocauto.com/icerace/images/Andy_Bayley8_Small.JPG[/img]
(which one of these... not like the other?)
| rain_racer | 12-13-2005 08:23 AM |
[QUOTE=fliz]One site I found recommends using drywall screws pushed through from the inside. I'd be worried about them moving around too much and losing air, or pushing into the tire. [/QUOTE]
You run a liner and a tube... not all tires are tubeless...
You run a liner and a tube... not all tires are tubeless...
| the-moss | 12-13-2005 09:03 AM |
[QUOTE=Kincaid Racing]
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?[/QUOTE]
Here's one of our events last year.[URL=http://www.fvscc.com/winnebagoiceracing.wmv]Ice racing video[/URL]
Anyone got any subie ice action shots/video?[/QUOTE]
Here's one of our events last year.[URL=http://www.fvscc.com/winnebagoiceracing.wmv]Ice racing video[/URL]
| fliz | 12-13-2005 09:51 AM |
[QUOTE=the-moss]Fliz, I can probably get you a stud sharpener on the cheap.. Let me know if you want one.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'm interested.
Yeah, I'm interested.
| Mikeyrad | 12-13-2005 08:44 PM |
[QUOTE=Tensen]ask and ye shall receive..
[URL=http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133[/URL]
ramana on ice...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6275.jpg[/img]
an interesting tire...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6379.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
I saw that guy race on those tires last year at the BMW events. His car was STUPID fast.
He said they were snowmobile "cleats", but I haven't found anything like them
[URL=http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/gallery/album133[/URL]
ramana on ice...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6275.jpg[/img]
an interesting tire...
[img]http://www.plaftaphoto.com/albums/album135/IMG_6379.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
I saw that guy race on those tires last year at the BMW events. His car was STUPID fast.
He said they were snowmobile "cleats", but I haven't found anything like them
| Mikeyrad | 12-13-2005 08:54 PM |
Take that back, they are called "six point star studs" for snowmobiles....
speed costs money tho...and I can't spend that fast
speed costs money tho...and I can't spend that fast
| Homemade WRX | 12-14-2005 12:38 AM |
[QUOTE=Mikeyrad]speed costs money though...and I can't spend that fast[/QUOTE]
that is my all time favorite car quote now...because that is the story of my car :lol:
that is my all time favorite car quote now...because that is the story of my car :lol:
| RichWRX | 12-25-2005 11:03 PM |
does anyone know what lenght of ice screw will work without going thru the tire, i have some half worn potenzas, 7/16, 1/2 or 3/4inch ??
| fliz | 12-26-2005 10:08 PM |
[QUOTE=RichWRX]does anyone know what lenght of ice screw will work without going thru the tire, i have some half worn potenzas, 7/16, 1/2 or 3/4inch ??[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't mess around with screw-in studs. You won't find one short enough that won't go through the tire, and then when they start falling out (and they WILL fall out) you'll never be able to keep air in the tire.
If you want to screw a tire, use 3/4" drywall screws and go from the inside.
I wouldn't mess around with screw-in studs. You won't find one short enough that won't go through the tire, and then when they start falling out (and they WILL fall out) you'll never be able to keep air in the tire.
If you want to screw a tire, use 3/4" drywall screws and go from the inside.
| Ice racer | 12-26-2005 11:18 PM |
Here is a cut and paste copy of an article I have posted an article on how we used to build home made screw tires in A.M.E.C. ice racing. This is what we used for many years before the advent of the Menard ice racing tire [built in Wisconsin] that we use in the "Menard" classes today. The reason I built another set is because we are hosting North America's first ever [URL=http://com4.runboard.com/bamecmessageboard.fmainchat.t235][b]"Historic Ice races"[/b][/URL] this February 35th on Lake George. We plan to use these "Historic" type screw tires once again for this race.
[i][b]From the A.M.E.C. message board:[/b][/i]
This is an informational for the rare few who want to knock themselves out building a set of period correct A.M.E.C. screw tires from the old days.
I have to credit Bruce Carlton and Dave Burnham, who taught me everything I ever wanted to know about building these tires correctly. People who took short cuts or used poor judgement often had flats with these tires. I never had a flat even once. I built my first set in 1993, ironically the first year Menards became legal to use. I was not ready to spend that kind of coin my first year, so I built a set of these screw tires.
In any case, I relived that process today, as I've started to build new set for the Historic races. I got a nice head start this time around however, as I got a set in a package deal that had been started but not completed. They were started by Kevin Crowl. Kevin started by taking a small 1/8" drill bit and drilling a small hole [from the outside-in] in the center of the tread blocks of the tire.
[i]Note: when choosing a tire to use as a starting point, look for one with a nice blocky tread pattern. The more solid the tread blocks are, the better they will support the #10 Sheet metal screws we are going to install.[/i]
OK, the small pilot holes you've now drilled from the outside-in, will guide you as to where to screw in the #10 or #12 sheet metal screws. Use a cordless drill with a Phillips bit in it and install the screws from the inside-out. Make sure that you don't exceed the number of screws allowed per foot of tread, which is 28. Your tire will look like this when you have done so:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02929-1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02930-1.jpg[/img]
12 years ago when I did my first set, I chose screws that were much shorter, so I would have less grinding to do afterwards to get them down to the legal 3/16" maximum length. Kevin used much longer screws, but that turned out to be better than I thought. You'll see why during the last step.
But we're not ready to size the screws yet. Next it is time to prepare the inner tire liners [or "flaps"] that are needed to protect the tube from the screw heads.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02933-1.jpg[/img]
These "flaps" can be gotten through agricultural catalogs for farm implement tires. This is where some people didn't take the time to prepare the inner tire flaps properly, causing a piched inner tube and flat tires. It is imperative that all edges of the tire flap be ground down to a feather edge. All edges must merge smoothly when installed in the tire. This is because any rough edges on the tire flap will chafe the tube and cause a flat later. The feather egding process can most easily be done with a belt sander. A properly prepped tire flap should look like this:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02932-1.jpg[/img]
Then it's time to get everything ready for assembly. Apply liberal amounts of white talcum powder to both sides of the tire flap and to the inner tube. Install the tire flap into the tire and then mount the bottom bead onto a clean smooth wheel.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02934-1.jpg[/img]
Slide the inner tube into the assembly and make sure there are no folds in it. Use a tool to hold the inner tube's valvestem [so it doesn't fall into the tire] and mount the top tire bead. I always remove the valve core and inflate and deflate the tire three times before final inflation.
Back to the long screws used by Kevin. It turned out to be a help to me. Instead of hand grinding each screw to size like I had years ago, I found it easier this time around because I used a 3" disc cut off wheel. This turned out to be much quicker than hand grinding.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02935-1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02936-1.jpg[/img]
The finished product should look like this.
Congratulations, you have just built an A.M.E.C. legal screw tire. Now roll up your sleeves and build three more. Well, four more actually because you might need a spare some day.
OK, now that you know how quick and convenient it is to build a set of these, are you ready to get your hands dirty? [img]http://www.v8buick.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
....BTW, these tires have always been, and are still legal to use instead of Menards. But there haven't been any takers since 1993.
[i][b]From the A.M.E.C. message board:[/b][/i]
This is an informational for the rare few who want to knock themselves out building a set of period correct A.M.E.C. screw tires from the old days.
I have to credit Bruce Carlton and Dave Burnham, who taught me everything I ever wanted to know about building these tires correctly. People who took short cuts or used poor judgement often had flats with these tires. I never had a flat even once. I built my first set in 1993, ironically the first year Menards became legal to use. I was not ready to spend that kind of coin my first year, so I built a set of these screw tires.
In any case, I relived that process today, as I've started to build new set for the Historic races. I got a nice head start this time around however, as I got a set in a package deal that had been started but not completed. They were started by Kevin Crowl. Kevin started by taking a small 1/8" drill bit and drilling a small hole [from the outside-in] in the center of the tread blocks of the tire.
[i]Note: when choosing a tire to use as a starting point, look for one with a nice blocky tread pattern. The more solid the tread blocks are, the better they will support the #10 Sheet metal screws we are going to install.[/i]
OK, the small pilot holes you've now drilled from the outside-in, will guide you as to where to screw in the #10 or #12 sheet metal screws. Use a cordless drill with a Phillips bit in it and install the screws from the inside-out. Make sure that you don't exceed the number of screws allowed per foot of tread, which is 28. Your tire will look like this when you have done so:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02929-1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02930-1.jpg[/img]
12 years ago when I did my first set, I chose screws that were much shorter, so I would have less grinding to do afterwards to get them down to the legal 3/16" maximum length. Kevin used much longer screws, but that turned out to be better than I thought. You'll see why during the last step.
But we're not ready to size the screws yet. Next it is time to prepare the inner tire liners [or "flaps"] that are needed to protect the tube from the screw heads.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02933-1.jpg[/img]
These "flaps" can be gotten through agricultural catalogs for farm implement tires. This is where some people didn't take the time to prepare the inner tire flaps properly, causing a piched inner tube and flat tires. It is imperative that all edges of the tire flap be ground down to a feather edge. All edges must merge smoothly when installed in the tire. This is because any rough edges on the tire flap will chafe the tube and cause a flat later. The feather egding process can most easily be done with a belt sander. A properly prepped tire flap should look like this:
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02932-1.jpg[/img]
Then it's time to get everything ready for assembly. Apply liberal amounts of white talcum powder to both sides of the tire flap and to the inner tube. Install the tire flap into the tire and then mount the bottom bead onto a clean smooth wheel.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02934-1.jpg[/img]
Slide the inner tube into the assembly and make sure there are no folds in it. Use a tool to hold the inner tube's valvestem [so it doesn't fall into the tire] and mount the top tire bead. I always remove the valve core and inflate and deflate the tire three times before final inflation.
Back to the long screws used by Kevin. It turned out to be a help to me. Instead of hand grinding each screw to size like I had years ago, I found it easier this time around because I used a 3" disc cut off wheel. This turned out to be much quicker than hand grinding.
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02935-1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v452/blownb310/Ice%20racing/DSC02936-1.jpg[/img]
The finished product should look like this.
Congratulations, you have just built an A.M.E.C. legal screw tire. Now roll up your sleeves and build three more. Well, four more actually because you might need a spare some day.
OK, now that you know how quick and convenient it is to build a set of these, are you ready to get your hands dirty? [img]http://www.v8buick.com/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
....BTW, these tires have always been, and are still legal to use instead of Menards. But there haven't been any takers since 1993.
| Bonzo | 12-27-2005 09:12 AM |
[QUOTE=Mikeyrad]Take that back, they are called "six point star studs" for snowmobiles....
speed costs money tho...and I can't spend that fast[/QUOTE]
These star studs were at one time made in K-zoo MI. Kalamazoo Klaw was another name for them. They became popular way back in the 70's when sleds just started using traction devices. I have not seen these used on the sled scene since. I guess they are now a thing of the past. Negatives were they were heavy, easily dulled and not easy to sharpen.
speed costs money tho...and I can't spend that fast[/QUOTE]
These star studs were at one time made in K-zoo MI. Kalamazoo Klaw was another name for them. They became popular way back in the 70's when sleds just started using traction devices. I have not seen these used on the sled scene since. I guess they are now a thing of the past. Negatives were they were heavy, easily dulled and not easy to sharpen.
| fujiwara takumi | 12-29-2005 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE=ReZDoG]yeah.. I'm now in the market for ice tres.. :D Just got me a 88 Chevy nova.. :D[/QUOTE]
proly my old car. i miss that bastard.
anyway, im gonna make some pretty quick. would one recommend i buy some crap all seasons or otherwise i have some race rubber that is too burned out for the track. i heard there are more plies in race rubber and they make good ice tires.
and here's a video of my partner roy on boughten studs
[url]http://beatracing.com/roy/videos/compilations/iceracingjem.wmv[/url]
proly my old car. i miss that bastard.
anyway, im gonna make some pretty quick. would one recommend i buy some crap all seasons or otherwise i have some race rubber that is too burned out for the track. i heard there are more plies in race rubber and they make good ice tires.
and here's a video of my partner roy on boughten studs
[url]http://beatracing.com/roy/videos/compilations/iceracingjem.wmv[/url]
| TOMMY B | 12-30-2005 08:46 AM |
I'm liking this thread... good info.
I'm thinking of running a Event or two here in up-state New York, I have a 00 Turbo Golf & 03 Evo I would run in a Stud-less Class. Just how safe is this racing as far as Contact with other drivers ? What types of speeds are reached ? what type of track ? I can live with a dent in my golf, but not my Evo..
I See Lots of photo's of WRX's with there hat in the Ring...
TOMMY B
RALLY ON /////////////////////
I'm thinking of running a Event or two here in up-state New York, I have a 00 Turbo Golf & 03 Evo I would run in a Stud-less Class. Just how safe is this racing as far as Contact with other drivers ? What types of speeds are reached ? what type of track ? I can live with a dent in my golf, but not my Evo..
I See Lots of photo's of WRX's with there hat in the Ring...
TOMMY B
RALLY ON /////////////////////
| the-moss | 12-30-2005 09:28 AM |
Chances of hitting another car are slim. This is all against the clock.
Last year my 03 Evo was hitting around 50-60mph on rubber and 75-85mph on studs..
Last year my 03 Evo was hitting around 50-60mph on rubber and 75-85mph on studs..
| TimStevens | 12-30-2005 09:35 AM |
Tommy, the AMEC guys round here do wheel to wheel ice racing. IIRC they had one case of contact in a "stock" class last year, but it's generally damage free. But, they have a single time trial event, which is generally very safe other than some dented door panels and the like.
Also, FYI, 'round here you get some funny looks if you say you're "upstate" and you live south o' Fishkill :)
Also, FYI, 'round here you get some funny looks if you say you're "upstate" and you live south o' Fishkill :)
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