| RaceComp Engineering | 08-23-2004 02:44 AM |
Prodrive admits worst accident ever...
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Rally of Germany-
Stage x near the end of the rally, Solbergs WRC S9 rolled and sustained serious damage crushing the roofline on the navigator's side (Phil Mills) down completely. Luckily due to the super low position ,even given Mills tall 6.0 frame, he avioded serious injury and was kept overnight for observation. Petter was fine, unscaved and walked away, as his side looked as we have come to picture, with the roofline in tact, and the windshield smashed in.
The issue I have and I'm sure Prodrive Competition has, is that the B-pilar hoop allowed the roof line to crush down so far,..it was shocking to see on TV, and David Lapworth was quoted as saying ,.." It is their worse crash to date,.."
I'm sure there will be a technical explanation given, but I'll have to wait to read it in Autosport or Rally magazine.
Any of you who watched had to be horrified when they showed that roofline.
Anyway I'm glad no-one was seriously hurt, let anone killed. For those of you who havent seen it,..it makes you think twice about building your own cage and "hoping" or wondering if It will do its job.
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
[email][email�protected][/email]
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Showroom opening October 1, 2004
9123 Old Annapolis Rd ( RT.108 )
Columbia, Maryland 21045
410-730-7223 phone
410-730-5503 fax
Stage x near the end of the rally, Solbergs WRC S9 rolled and sustained serious damage crushing the roofline on the navigator's side (Phil Mills) down completely. Luckily due to the super low position ,even given Mills tall 6.0 frame, he avioded serious injury and was kept overnight for observation. Petter was fine, unscaved and walked away, as his side looked as we have come to picture, with the roofline in tact, and the windshield smashed in.
The issue I have and I'm sure Prodrive Competition has, is that the B-pilar hoop allowed the roof line to crush down so far,..it was shocking to see on TV, and David Lapworth was quoted as saying ,.." It is their worse crash to date,.."
I'm sure there will be a technical explanation given, but I'll have to wait to read it in Autosport or Rally magazine.
Any of you who watched had to be horrified when they showed that roofline.
Anyway I'm glad no-one was seriously hurt, let anone killed. For those of you who havent seen it,..it makes you think twice about building your own cage and "hoping" or wondering if It will do its job.
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
[email][email�protected][/email]
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Showroom opening October 1, 2004
9123 Old Annapolis Rd ( RT.108 )
Columbia, Maryland 21045
410-730-7223 phone
410-730-5503 fax
| PRODRIVEN | 08-23-2004 03:16 AM |
Just finished watching the rally. Can't believe Mills was not injured. You could see the cage collapsing in the in car video. The car rolled multiple times on the concrete. He is lucky to be alive. One of the worst accidents I have seen. Must have looked even worse form the outside. Definitely a testament to the saftey of the cars, whether or not there was a problem with the cage.
Duncan
Duncan
| WRXGuyInUSA | 08-23-2004 05:39 AM |
Any pics of the car???
| Scooby Freak | 08-23-2004 07:09 AM |
Lucky nobody was hurt. In the video, you can see the roof take about three hits, each one lowering the roofline a few inchs, until the camera has no view at all. There was quite a few bad crashes w/ the slippery conditions & the tough terrain. I've never seen so many stages cancelled.
| RaceComp Engineering | 08-23-2004 07:18 AM |
My thought was al the times I have seen those cars take more hits than that on the roof, with low and high speed rollovers, some with multiple rollovers, followed by a tree hit.
Did amyone pay attention to Pannizzi's car and the amount of room remaining between his shoulder and the door, after he hit that tree?....amazing he wasnt killed, as his helmet smalled against the trianlge roof support !!
Crazy stuff, but big safety lesson to be learned from lst nights showing of the rally on Speed.
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
[email][email�protected][/email]
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Showroom opening October 1, 2004
9123 Old Annapolis Rd ( RT.108 )
Columbia, Maryland 21045
410-730-7223 phone
410-730-5503 fax
Did amyone pay attention to Pannizzi's car and the amount of room remaining between his shoulder and the door, after he hit that tree?....amazing he wasnt killed, as his helmet smalled against the trianlge roof support !!
Crazy stuff, but big safety lesson to be learned from lst nights showing of the rally on Speed.
944 turbo guy
Myles Williams
Racecomp Engineering LLC
[url]www.racecompengineering.com[/url]
[email][email�protected][/email]
410-366-RACE (7223)
410-707-0108 cell
Showroom opening October 1, 2004
9123 Old Annapolis Rd ( RT.108 )
Columbia, Maryland 21045
410-730-7223 phone
410-730-5503 fax
| WRXedUSA | 08-23-2004 07:42 AM |
[QUOTE=WRXGuyInTulsa]Any pics of the car???[/QUOTE]
Check the sticky thread...
Check the sticky thread...
| Big C | 08-23-2004 08:26 AM |
Those pictures are really scary.....Glad they both were able to walk away.
-C (who hopes he never has a crash like that!)
-C (who hopes he never has a crash like that!)
| BryanH | 08-23-2004 08:48 AM |
Having come out of a car that looked like that (and then loaded onto a helicopter) I am stunned it held up as good as it did. Those were some BIG hits.
| Jsortor | 08-23-2004 10:11 AM |
I wouldn't be suprised if they found that one of those giant concrete blocks at the edge of the road they were talking about impacted the car right at the place you see the cage snapped.
| mbiker97 | 08-23-2004 11:15 AM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]I wouldn't be suprised if they found that one of those giant concrete blocks at the edge of the road they were talking about impacted the car right at the place you see the cage snapped.[/QUOTE]
Good call. I've never seen a cage deform that way before.
Good call. I've never seen a cage deform that way before.
| Scooby South | 08-23-2004 11:52 AM |
Exactly what it was.....I had a feeling when Nicky "introduced" them...that someone was going to eat one of those things.....It definately sux....
| donjuan | 08-23-2004 12:09 PM |
I thought for sure Mills was hurt when I saw the in-car video. You could see the roof come down on him and bend him over. Very scary, and amazing that he's ok.
| bemani | 08-23-2004 12:56 PM |
Would next year's mandated HANS make any difference in the outcome of Phil's crash? i.e. Would he still be able to tilt his head sideways as the roof come crushing down?
| RaceComp Engineering | 08-23-2004 01:30 PM |
[QUOTE=bemani]Would next year's mandated HANS make any difference in the outcome of Phil's crash? i.e. Would he still be able to tilt his head sideways as the roof come crushing down?[/QUOTE]
Having worn one before, I know I cant tilt my head as far as they showed him tilting his,..BEFORE the camera was blocked.
944 turbo guy
Having worn one before, I know I cant tilt my head as far as they showed him tilting his,..BEFORE the camera was blocked.
944 turbo guy
| mrbigisbudgood | 08-23-2004 01:38 PM |
I totally agree with Jsortor and I'm willing to bet my engineering degree on this. When Petter clocked that concrete tank barrier thing, the structure of the cage was instantly and critically comprimised. The impacts of the subsequent rollovers were beyond what the comprimised cage structure could handle.
| bemani | 08-23-2004 01:50 PM |
[QUOTE=RaceComp Engineering]Having worn one before, I know I cant tilt my head as far as they showed him tilting his,..BEFORE the camera was blocked.
944 turbo guy[/QUOTE]
That's a scary thought ...
944 turbo guy[/QUOTE]
That's a scary thought ...
| DrBiggly | 08-23-2004 02:08 PM |
I forget; what are the purpose of those concrete things in the ground anyway?
| mrbigisbudgood | 08-23-2004 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]I forget; what are the purpose of those concrete things in the ground anyway?[/QUOTE]
Supposedly, to keep tanks on the road. :huh: Like a little concrete would stop a tank.
Supposedly, to keep tanks on the road. :huh: Like a little concrete would stop a tank.
| RaceComp Engineering | 08-23-2004 02:14 PM |
[QUOTE=mrbigisbudgood]I totally agree with Jsortor and I'm willing to bet my engineering degree on this. When Petter clocked that concrete tank barrier thing, the structure of the cage was instantly and critically comprimised. The impacts of the subsequent rollovers were beyond what the comprimised cage structure could handle.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with that !!!
944tg
I totally agree with that !!!
944tg
| GravelRash | 08-23-2004 02:17 PM |
It's a tank testing/practice ground, iirc; the blocks are there to keep the tanks on the road when moving between test areas.
| BryanH | 08-23-2004 02:21 PM |
[QUOTE=mrbigisbudgood]Supposedly, to keep tanks on the road. :huh: Like a little concrete would stop a tank.[/QUOTE]
They don't...but they do sorta nudge the tank back over to where they should be. In a car its a littel more tha a nudge.
Over here they use sand filled barrels....or nothing at all and designate the area a little better.
They don't...but they do sorta nudge the tank back over to where they should be. In a car its a littel more tha a nudge.
Over here they use sand filled barrels....or nothing at all and designate the area a little better.
| RB5 Clone | 08-23-2004 02:23 PM |
Beware HANS-bashing unless you've actually worn one!
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Easy on the HANS-bashing, guys...
You have to realize that the Solberg/Mills Rally Deutschland crash was a 1-in-1000 event. Even though they wadded Prodrive's best-built shell and cage into a ball, remember that they both walked away, OK!!?? In most wrecks where rally cars smack immovable objects at 100+ mph, people would be howling how HANS is the only way to go.
In this case, it's arguable whether a HANS would have helped or hindered. Probably Mills could not have scootched down so neatly had he been wearing a HANS. Give him credit for incredible presence of mind to do exactly the right thing during a horrific shunt.
It's been my experience that wearing a HANS in a stage rally car is only really noticeable after you have gotten out of the car and have to get back in quick and buckle back up--like at a time control or a flat on stage, etc. Otherwise, you hardly know you're wearing one. At the end of a long rally of being jounced severely for 300+ miles, wearing a HANS will make your neck really glad for the extra support.
Given the high-impact stage mileage the WRC guys rack up in during a season, I can't imagine why more of them aren't already wearing HANS every day.
cheers,
Dave G
Co-Pilote and Crash Test Dummy (and HANS Fan)
Last Ditch Racing
You have to realize that the Solberg/Mills Rally Deutschland crash was a 1-in-1000 event. Even though they wadded Prodrive's best-built shell and cage into a ball, remember that they both walked away, OK!!?? In most wrecks where rally cars smack immovable objects at 100+ mph, people would be howling how HANS is the only way to go.
In this case, it's arguable whether a HANS would have helped or hindered. Probably Mills could not have scootched down so neatly had he been wearing a HANS. Give him credit for incredible presence of mind to do exactly the right thing during a horrific shunt.
It's been my experience that wearing a HANS in a stage rally car is only really noticeable after you have gotten out of the car and have to get back in quick and buckle back up--like at a time control or a flat on stage, etc. Otherwise, you hardly know you're wearing one. At the end of a long rally of being jounced severely for 300+ miles, wearing a HANS will make your neck really glad for the extra support.
Given the high-impact stage mileage the WRC guys rack up in during a season, I can't imagine why more of them aren't already wearing HANS every day.
cheers,
Dave G
Co-Pilote and Crash Test Dummy (and HANS Fan)
Last Ditch Racing
| Chaste Automotive | 08-23-2004 03:37 PM |
Just for a little different take on this crash I will putin my two cents. I was at Prodrive the week before Germany and I was actually sitting in Petters car before the rally so I had a pretty good look at everything. I think the cage did it's job fine nobody was hurt and everyone walked away. After any serious accident it is a good idea to take drivers and co-drivers to hospital for observation since there are things that can develop after a roll that are not easily detected (like swelling inside the cranium).
Now for the cage, the first thing that you will have to realize is that the WRC cage is not built up to the roofline the way a group N cage is built for instance. The cage is built with about a 2 inch gap from the roof line. This may have contributed to the deformation (I use this word because the cage did not fail or collapse. I fyou have seen a failed cage the results are quite horrific.) which I personally feel was a little bit more than it should have been. But in the end if neither member of the crew was hurt then I htink the cage did the job fine.
With regards to the HANS system, it will be mandated in the WRC next year but there has been continual testing this year and they are developing a rally specific version and Phil Mills is one of the testers. Because of the seat position of the co-driver when I spoke with Jim Downing (HANS inventor and innovator) he told me that while drivers sit in a position similar to Touring car drivers it was an easy fitment but for co-drivers there were additional factos involved in fitment. Now HANS is designed to come into play in ful frontal impacts here there is a rapid deceleration of the body which can create strain on the neck because it is free and thus not decelerated at the same rate as the torso. This is because the Torso is decelerated by th belts and the head has no restraint. The idea behind HANS is to keep the strain on the base of the skull (Basal Skull fractures are what killed Dale Earnheardt) by creating and even deceleration. The base of the skull is very vulnerable and contains the brain stem which governs basic bodily functions like heart rate and respiration. In Petters accident while there was a rapid deceleration it was side impact which HANS wouldn ot have ahd a great impact on.
Hope this clears a little misinformation about how HANS works for you.
Now for the cage, the first thing that you will have to realize is that the WRC cage is not built up to the roofline the way a group N cage is built for instance. The cage is built with about a 2 inch gap from the roof line. This may have contributed to the deformation (I use this word because the cage did not fail or collapse. I fyou have seen a failed cage the results are quite horrific.) which I personally feel was a little bit more than it should have been. But in the end if neither member of the crew was hurt then I htink the cage did the job fine.
With regards to the HANS system, it will be mandated in the WRC next year but there has been continual testing this year and they are developing a rally specific version and Phil Mills is one of the testers. Because of the seat position of the co-driver when I spoke with Jim Downing (HANS inventor and innovator) he told me that while drivers sit in a position similar to Touring car drivers it was an easy fitment but for co-drivers there were additional factos involved in fitment. Now HANS is designed to come into play in ful frontal impacts here there is a rapid deceleration of the body which can create strain on the neck because it is free and thus not decelerated at the same rate as the torso. This is because the Torso is decelerated by th belts and the head has no restraint. The idea behind HANS is to keep the strain on the base of the skull (Basal Skull fractures are what killed Dale Earnheardt) by creating and even deceleration. The base of the skull is very vulnerable and contains the brain stem which governs basic bodily functions like heart rate and respiration. In Petters accident while there was a rapid deceleration it was side impact which HANS wouldn ot have ahd a great impact on.
Hope this clears a little misinformation about how HANS works for you.
| PRODRIVEN | 08-23-2004 07:11 PM |
[quote]I had a feeling when Nicky "introduced" them...that someone was going to eat one of those things.....It definately sux.... [/quote]
I think it was the other way around
I think it was the other way around
| 8Complex | 08-24-2004 12:29 AM |
If you'd have listened to Nicky about those barriers, you'd know that they were anchored in the ground much like a glacier is in water... with the vast majority below ground, making them incredibly strong.
If you rewatch it, as well, you will see in a replay of the area that one of the concrete barriers they hit had been hit so hard that it was actually leaning over. Thats pretty nutty right there.
I have a friend that just moved up here from having worked at the company that makes HANS devices... I'll have to give him a ring and see if he can take a look at the tape and what he thinks.
If you rewatch it, as well, you will see in a replay of the area that one of the concrete barriers they hit had been hit so hard that it was actually leaning over. Thats pretty nutty right there.
I have a friend that just moved up here from having worked at the company that makes HANS devices... I'll have to give him a ring and see if he can take a look at the tape and what he thinks.
| thechickencow | 08-24-2004 02:50 AM |
Hopefully randy won't mind me stealing his images:
[img]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/pettergerm1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/pettergerm2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wrc.com/ULImages/Homepage/solberg-krasch-05-webok.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/pettergerm1.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.randyzimmer.com/video/pettergerm2.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.wrc.com/ULImages/Homepage/solberg-krasch-05-webok.gif[/img]
| Simon Lines | 08-24-2004 06:37 AM |
Hi Guys
The cage deformed as it's designed to do. you can easily (well not easily but it's possible) build a car that will not deform at all under any circumstance but then you'd just turn the occupants into jelly...
The cage, indeed the whole car, is designed to progressively collapse thereby dissipating energy and saving the lives of the occupants. It's just that this crash was fairly high speed into a series of very solid objects that impacted in and around a similar spot thereby maximising damage in that area.
As a generalisation, a crash that is "spectacular" is usually "safer" for the occupants as all the "spectacular" movement is busy dissipating energy in a reasonably safe way. It's the "un-spectacular" crashes were the vehicle quickly stops that the crew end up injured.
Cheers
Simon
The cage deformed as it's designed to do. you can easily (well not easily but it's possible) build a car that will not deform at all under any circumstance but then you'd just turn the occupants into jelly...
The cage, indeed the whole car, is designed to progressively collapse thereby dissipating energy and saving the lives of the occupants. It's just that this crash was fairly high speed into a series of very solid objects that impacted in and around a similar spot thereby maximising damage in that area.
As a generalisation, a crash that is "spectacular" is usually "safer" for the occupants as all the "spectacular" movement is busy dissipating energy in a reasonably safe way. It's the "un-spectacular" crashes were the vehicle quickly stops that the crew end up injured.
Cheers
Simon
| Rebellion | 08-24-2004 08:18 AM |
wasn't Mark Lovell's car a Prodrive prepped car? How do they say this is the worst ever?
| RaceComp Engineering | 08-24-2004 08:44 AM |
Let me be very clear about this next statement.
As as DRIVER,..yes I want my cage to "abosrb" as much enerygy and impact as possible, and I realize that is a point where it can only absorb but so much. And I dont mean to question JEFF, SIMON, or any other engineering degree betting contributors of this thread , but I would like to know and trust in a cage that after that 2nd "absorbtion", where the roof was coming in, ...I would like to know at that moment when you relealize "this is it"...and I'm sure some of you racers out there who have been thru enough tough events now that feeling where you know its gonna be bad, and more things than the immediate situaton start to go thru your head,..like death,....at that moment I'd like to know that that cage wont deform any more beyond a certain point, as another x amount lower and none of that would have matter much for MILLS. I understand what its suppose to do,...and thats swell from an analitical standpoint after its all said and done. ...But like when you get jumped and 3 guys are beating the crap out of you, if you KNOW you can take it, you have that to hold onto that in your head, but if you look up and one guy pulls out a gun,....thats that,..lights out,....thats all she wrote.
Point being, after that roof caved(absorbed) 3 times, and maybe the forth time is when we saw MILLS face change, and his neck cocked sideways very much,..much more and thats the point in reality where you know what the inevitable is , and there's nothing you can do about it.
In fact,maybe I'm voicing the harsh reality of a moment of truth that alot of drivers have come to , some with us and some not. Motor racing is dangerous and we take precautions and some times thats not enough.
I dont question if the cage did its job,..enough people have stated that it did, and thats good to know, I just wonder if they ( Prodrive Competition UK ) will make any changes as a result of what happened. As my wife said,.."what would have happened, if the car had rolled of a hill at Corsica, or San Remo, AFTER that roll over event,....then what? Yes, the speed was a an issue here, and yes we all feel as though the car impacted with one of those barriers in the ground first,...and so yes, Corsica or San Remo might not have the same circumstances behind it,..but its a valid question. I remember the Makkinen flip a couple of years ago, where the car rest on the edge of the cliff upside down, after slowly rolling to the edge ,..whole different series of events,.......but what if it had gone over?...bad to worse . They were lucky and so was Mills in this case.
944 turbo guy
As as DRIVER,..yes I want my cage to "abosrb" as much enerygy and impact as possible, and I realize that is a point where it can only absorb but so much. And I dont mean to question JEFF, SIMON, or any other engineering degree betting contributors of this thread , but I would like to know and trust in a cage that after that 2nd "absorbtion", where the roof was coming in, ...I would like to know at that moment when you relealize "this is it"...and I'm sure some of you racers out there who have been thru enough tough events now that feeling where you know its gonna be bad, and more things than the immediate situaton start to go thru your head,..like death,....at that moment I'd like to know that that cage wont deform any more beyond a certain point, as another x amount lower and none of that would have matter much for MILLS. I understand what its suppose to do,...and thats swell from an analitical standpoint after its all said and done. ...But like when you get jumped and 3 guys are beating the crap out of you, if you KNOW you can take it, you have that to hold onto that in your head, but if you look up and one guy pulls out a gun,....thats that,..lights out,....thats all she wrote.
Point being, after that roof caved(absorbed) 3 times, and maybe the forth time is when we saw MILLS face change, and his neck cocked sideways very much,..much more and thats the point in reality where you know what the inevitable is , and there's nothing you can do about it.
In fact,maybe I'm voicing the harsh reality of a moment of truth that alot of drivers have come to , some with us and some not. Motor racing is dangerous and we take precautions and some times thats not enough.
I dont question if the cage did its job,..enough people have stated that it did, and thats good to know, I just wonder if they ( Prodrive Competition UK ) will make any changes as a result of what happened. As my wife said,.."what would have happened, if the car had rolled of a hill at Corsica, or San Remo, AFTER that roll over event,....then what? Yes, the speed was a an issue here, and yes we all feel as though the car impacted with one of those barriers in the ground first,...and so yes, Corsica or San Remo might not have the same circumstances behind it,..but its a valid question. I remember the Makkinen flip a couple of years ago, where the car rest on the edge of the cliff upside down, after slowly rolling to the edge ,..whole different series of events,.......but what if it had gone over?...bad to worse . They were lucky and so was Mills in this case.
944 turbo guy
| mrbell | 08-24-2004 09:55 AM |
They will likely make changes. That's what you do. You learn from the bad experiences and improve. That's how rally got to the level it is today. In 20 years, we'll look back at todays cars the way we look at Minis from the 60s.
But anyway, I just wanted to chime in w/ Simon here. Since HANS has been brought up and the way Dale Earnhardt dies, I want to use that as an example to support what Simon said: 'It's the "un-spectacular" crashes were the vehicle quickly stops that the crew end up injured.'
Did anyone see the Earnhardt crash? It LOOKED like he barely hit the wall, compared to the explosive wrecks I've seen in nearly every other motorsport where people walk away.
Of course, any wreck is bad news. No matter how protected you are, it still is an extremely jarring experience and it hurts.
Hopefully they'll use this to learn how to not wreck in the first place.
As well all know, in rally, if you don't finish, you don't win
BTW, I"m not faulting anyone here. Petter is an extremely talented driver as are the engineers and crew at Prodrive as are all the drivers and teams of the WRC.
But anyway, I just wanted to chime in w/ Simon here. Since HANS has been brought up and the way Dale Earnhardt dies, I want to use that as an example to support what Simon said: 'It's the "un-spectacular" crashes were the vehicle quickly stops that the crew end up injured.'
Did anyone see the Earnhardt crash? It LOOKED like he barely hit the wall, compared to the explosive wrecks I've seen in nearly every other motorsport where people walk away.
Of course, any wreck is bad news. No matter how protected you are, it still is an extremely jarring experience and it hurts.
Hopefully they'll use this to learn how to not wreck in the first place.
As well all know, in rally, if you don't finish, you don't win
BTW, I"m not faulting anyone here. Petter is an extremely talented driver as are the engineers and crew at Prodrive as are all the drivers and teams of the WRC.
| engineerx | 08-24-2004 05:53 PM |
Well, the impact the car experienced was truly of a huge magnitude for the structural integrity to have been deformed the way it was. I do believe that the deformation of the car greatly helped the occupants virtually "walk away" from the horrendous crash! - all that energy has to go somewhere - if it's not absorbed by the structural components of the car (cage collapsing / roof caving in) then it has to be transmitted somewhere else : car bouncing farther up or sliding and as well as higher impact forces onto the occupants. True - I would prefer a cage that only allowed some collapse and did not intrude into the occupant space - because then you may get killed by metal parts or simply crushed along with rest of car.
One has to also question decisions made by the various parties in this drama:
*FIA-WRC for allowing the rally to run under such dangerous conditions (Mitsubishi's Panzanni -sp. had previouly had a very bad crash as well)
*Subaru Team's choice of tires - did they have tires for this conditions or was Solberg out there with "fast" tires?
*Solberg for driving way too much on the edge knowing those damn tank stopping barriers were there
Alas .... that's racing and this unfortunately will not be the last time something like this happens.... but I'm sure all involved will make adjustments and improve on designs/decision-making.
I captured the crash on my PC - I'll upload the clip shortly
One has to also question decisions made by the various parties in this drama:
*FIA-WRC for allowing the rally to run under such dangerous conditions (Mitsubishi's Panzanni -sp. had previouly had a very bad crash as well)
*Subaru Team's choice of tires - did they have tires for this conditions or was Solberg out there with "fast" tires?
*Solberg for driving way too much on the edge knowing those damn tank stopping barriers were there
Alas .... that's racing and this unfortunately will not be the last time something like this happens.... but I'm sure all involved will make adjustments and improve on designs/decision-making.
I captured the crash on my PC - I'll upload the clip shortly
| 2.5 Blue Roo | 08-24-2004 06:19 PM |
i would really like to see the clip so whenever youg et it uploaded help out th epeople that dont have speedvision :)
| engineerx | 08-24-2004 06:46 PM |
[QUOTE=2.5 Blue Roo]i would really like to see the clip so whenever youg et it uploaded help out th epeople that dont have speedvision :)[/QUOTE]
Will do !
Look for it later tonite (after 9pm PST)
I wish they had had several cameras running - they only showed the in-car camera angle. It must have been quite spectacular to see it from outside angle !
Will do !
Look for it later tonite (after 9pm PST)
I wish they had had several cameras running - they only showed the in-car camera angle. It must have been quite spectacular to see it from outside angle !
| engineerx | 08-24-2004 09:09 PM |
Here are the clips I captured on my PC - I added the "slo-motion" at end ;-)
Damn those Heinckelsteins !!!!
11MB mpeg file - right click & "save as" then save to your local harddrive and play from your PC
If that doesn't work then click on the Windows Media Video file - should play by clicking on link
[url]http://users.adelphia.net/~engineerx/ouch.htm[/url]
Many THANKS to NASIOC member "Neaners"
- She hooked me up with some nice hosting space on her servers!
Damn those Heinckelsteins !!!!
11MB mpeg file - right click & "save as" then save to your local harddrive and play from your PC
If that doesn't work then click on the Windows Media Video file - should play by clicking on link
[url]http://users.adelphia.net/~engineerx/ouch.htm[/url]
Many THANKS to NASIOC member "Neaners"
- She hooked me up with some nice hosting space on her servers!
| 2.5 Blue Roo | 08-24-2004 09:15 PM |
awesome! thanks so much, my crappy cable company doesnt have speedvision so i dont get to watch wrc :(
| engineerx | 08-24-2004 09:20 PM |
[QUOTE=2.5 Blue Roo]awesome! thanks so much, my crappy cable company doesnt have speedvision so i dont get to watch wrc :([/QUOTE]
heheh no prob !!!!
SpeedVision rules .....
I get to watch NASCAR galore ... yeeeeehaaa!!! - should be called NASCARVISION !!(LOL!!!!)
Still ... lots of good motorsports ... just WRC alone is worth having it !!!
hey - I was still messing with the links to the video hehehe!!! :disco:
heheh no prob !!!!
SpeedVision rules .....
I get to watch NASCAR galore ... yeeeeehaaa!!! - should be called NASCARVISION !!(LOL!!!!)
Still ... lots of good motorsports ... just WRC alone is worth having it !!!
hey - I was still messing with the links to the video hehehe!!! :disco:
| dynoguy | 08-24-2004 09:51 PM |
well i might be missing something i am not an engineer but i have been around racing all my 41 years the last 15 in major u.s. racing series(in off-road truck/buggie andthe last 11 working at roush racing in sports car and now in nascar) but the thing you see and hear about now when they want to build a car is a drivers compartment that should remain intact. the periffal parts of the car should take the brunt of the forces of impact. i my opinion these wrc cars should have more surport on the roof hoop bar (ie. the earnhart bar) .i know that bar would impeed there sight lines but some type of bar(s) need to be looked at.
just my .02$
mike kasch
just my .02$
mike kasch
| engineerx | 08-24-2004 09:57 PM |
[QUOTE=dynoguy]...drivers compartment that should remain intact. the periffal parts of the car should take the brunt of the forces of impact. i my opinion these wrc cars should have more surport on the roof hoop bar ..... mike kasch[/QUOTE]
Mike - that's a good $0.02 !!!
Some of the WRC cars I see on SpeedVision do hve more cross-members on the roof - but not the one down the windshield.
But you're right - the driver's & navigator's space should remain fairly intact and the rest of car take the forces. FIA should mandate roof reinforcement !
Mike - that's a good $0.02 !!!
Some of the WRC cars I see on SpeedVision do hve more cross-members on the roof - but not the one down the windshield.
But you're right - the driver's & navigator's space should remain fairly intact and the rest of car take the forces. FIA should mandate roof reinforcement !
| 8Complex | 08-25-2004 12:56 AM |
I don't think that that is necessarily true... it took the hardest, most direct hits you will ever see in a rally car (something VERY solid, only 5-6" across, and very high off the ground, at very high speeds), and it worked perfectly. If it was more solid, it would have been much more jarring to the passengers, and would've likely caused internal injuries.
| Simon Lines | 08-25-2004 06:18 AM |
[QUOTE=8Complex]I don't think that that is necessarily true... it took the hardest, most direct hits you will ever see in a rally car (something VERY solid, only 5-6" across, and very high off the ground, at very high speeds), and it worked perfectly. If it was more solid, it would have been much more jarring to the passengers, and would've likely caused internal injuries.[/QUOTE]
You beat me to it :)
I would suggest if you've seen inside the car's you'd realise that there is a huge amount of roof support in there. I refer to my previous comments "it took a series of big hits around the same place" if you make it too strong you have an indestructible car that turns the occupants to mush!
Nevertheless they will properly check it and MAY be changed if it can be more effective.
Absorbsion / Protection - The trouble is you finite distance to absorb in! The roof is 6" over the drivers head maybe a 1' over the co drivers, you have maybe 8 - 10" from the occupants sides to the outside of the car. You have to cut a division between absorbing through deformation and strength to prevent crush injury. At the end of the day if you impact one spot for long enough that spot WILL give way, this is true of any material, any construction.
Cheers
Simon
You beat me to it :)
I would suggest if you've seen inside the car's you'd realise that there is a huge amount of roof support in there. I refer to my previous comments "it took a series of big hits around the same place" if you make it too strong you have an indestructible car that turns the occupants to mush!
Nevertheless they will properly check it and MAY be changed if it can be more effective.
Absorbsion / Protection - The trouble is you finite distance to absorb in! The roof is 6" over the drivers head maybe a 1' over the co drivers, you have maybe 8 - 10" from the occupants sides to the outside of the car. You have to cut a division between absorbing through deformation and strength to prevent crush injury. At the end of the day if you impact one spot for long enough that spot WILL give way, this is true of any material, any construction.
Cheers
Simon
| Chaste Automotive | 08-25-2004 07:57 AM |
Mike if you haven't noticed, but there have been more deaths in NASCAR in the last 5 years then there has in the WRC. Many people believe that this can be attributed to cage design in NASCAR since may feel that the cages and chassis are too stiff. When you combine a cage that does not deform or absorb energy the occupant usually suffers horrible internal injury and when you are racing nect to concrete walls that do not give at 200 mph that would not seem to be a good thing. Just my .02
| dynoguy | 08-25-2004 09:52 AM |
[QUOTE]Chaste Automotive Mike if you haven't noticed, but there have been more deaths in NASCAR in the last 5 years then there has in the WRC. Many people believe that this can be attributed to cage design in NASCAR since may feel that the cages and chassis are too stiff. When you combine a cage that does not deform or absorb energy the occupant usually suffers horrible internal injury and when you are racing nect to concrete walls that do not give at 200 mph that would not seem to be a good thing. Just my .02 [/QUOTE] well you said to nascar does race at 200 mph and most rally cars crash in some type of cornering so the speeds are lower than 130 mph(just a guess since top speeds are may be 150), and the recent deaths have been caused mostly from some sort of frontal impact using a 3400 lb car( read need for HANS and higher impact mass generate by the wieght of the cars). i am a bigger fan of wrc than nascar but my thought is that the cage should never deform that much.
cheers,
mike
cheers,
mike
| 8Complex | 08-25-2004 10:19 AM |
Well, in NASCAR you will never see an impact like that, though... it'll almost 100% of the time be a wall, another car, or, well, the ground. Something big, wide. In rally, you have to deal with everything from big brick walls, ditches, houses (!!), to other cars, fences, trees, and concrete walls.
| dynoguy | 08-25-2004 09:27 PM |
well let,s see how about ryan newmans crash at daytona last year or elliot sadler and bill elliots at talladega , i now there is acouple of more of some very serious flips but can't remember them right now. but the point is that these are 3400 lb car getting tossed in the air more than a few feet with that much stored energy as they hit the ground the main but of the cage stayed in tacted. if you watch the video from engineerx at slow motionthe whole right side of the roof bar is pushing against phil's head if that car had rooled one more time his neck most likely would have broken. what i'm tring to say is that first shot that the cage took( as the roof slams on the ground) the cage had already failed if that had taken 3 or 4 hits before that happened i'd be alright with the preformance.
cheers,
mike
cheers,
mike
| mrbell | 08-25-2004 10:03 PM |
The video doesn't seem to work anymore.
Plus, all you people need to work on your grammar and punctuation.
Plus, all you people need to work on your grammar and punctuation.
| XT6Wagon | 08-25-2004 10:32 PM |
Short and simple is...
While "absorbing energy" is all well and good, the cage in that instance basicly completely failed. If it was a street car and the roof went that low, I'd understand and it would be a safer occurance than that. Why? Well in a street car you are tougher than the seat and most of the rest of the car, but in a Rally car they have so much equipment and cage around the driver and "passenger" that you can't really move away from crushed sections of the car.
IMO a Nascar style cage is the ONLY way to protect the contents of a car in a wreck unless you can do integraded ground up design like Formula cars where the drivers section is basicly ultra stiff and resistant to huge impacts. Why do I think this? Well keeping the people in the car from having impacts with the car or objects from outside the car is priority #1. You can't do that if your cage has openings large enough to throw not so small farm animals through, or it simply can't handle the impacts it needs to. This is why Nascar cages run so many door bars. That way when you get hit in the side the other cars "frame rails" don't just punch a hole right through the sheetmetal and into the driver. Why don't rally cars run more door protection? What if the Subaru landed door down on one of those things that look like gavestones? Or the EVO on the ride finds something other than a nice broad tree that is vertical? Say like a stack of telephone poles where 1 or 2 stick out a couple of feet farther out? What would have happened if another car went off where the evo did and went front first into the side of the EVO?
Basicly IMO the current WRC cars have pushed the rules too far and taken steps that they shouldn't have.... and the FIA sat on its ass till this happened. *** are they doing that they allow the cage to not be right against the roof? Why are they not making SURE that the recent mega efforts to make cages that are light on top isn't making for light on top protection.
While "absorbing energy" is all well and good, the cage in that instance basicly completely failed. If it was a street car and the roof went that low, I'd understand and it would be a safer occurance than that. Why? Well in a street car you are tougher than the seat and most of the rest of the car, but in a Rally car they have so much equipment and cage around the driver and "passenger" that you can't really move away from crushed sections of the car.
IMO a Nascar style cage is the ONLY way to protect the contents of a car in a wreck unless you can do integraded ground up design like Formula cars where the drivers section is basicly ultra stiff and resistant to huge impacts. Why do I think this? Well keeping the people in the car from having impacts with the car or objects from outside the car is priority #1. You can't do that if your cage has openings large enough to throw not so small farm animals through, or it simply can't handle the impacts it needs to. This is why Nascar cages run so many door bars. That way when you get hit in the side the other cars "frame rails" don't just punch a hole right through the sheetmetal and into the driver. Why don't rally cars run more door protection? What if the Subaru landed door down on one of those things that look like gavestones? Or the EVO on the ride finds something other than a nice broad tree that is vertical? Say like a stack of telephone poles where 1 or 2 stick out a couple of feet farther out? What would have happened if another car went off where the evo did and went front first into the side of the EVO?
Basicly IMO the current WRC cars have pushed the rules too far and taken steps that they shouldn't have.... and the FIA sat on its ass till this happened. *** are they doing that they allow the cage to not be right against the roof? Why are they not making SURE that the recent mega efforts to make cages that are light on top isn't making for light on top protection.
| Rebellion | 08-26-2004 08:46 AM |
I agree w/ dynoguy...
someone mentioned earlier that it appeared that the first hit on the Heinckelstein was the issue.
With the high curb, the first impact compromised the cage more than any of the rolling did. I think it was more of a freak accident than anything else although everyone knew about the curbs.
someone mentioned earlier that it appeared that the first hit on the Heinckelstein was the issue.
With the high curb, the first impact compromised the cage more than any of the rolling did. I think it was more of a freak accident than anything else although everyone knew about the curbs.
| dynoguy | 08-26-2004 09:37 AM |
well mrbell, does that mean we all have to stay after school. besides if i paid more attention in school i would not have gotten into racing, i would have went theres real money to be made. :lol:
cheers,
mike
cheers,
mike
| mrbell | 08-26-2004 10:02 AM |
[QUOTE=dynoguy]well mrbell, does that mean we all have to stay after school. besides if i paid more attention in school i would not have gotten into racing, i would have went theres real money to be made.
cheers,
mike[/QUOTE]
Yes. You need to write... uhm... something on the board 100 times!
I'm just kidding, of course, but the following was just kind of difficult to piece together what it was that you meant.
[QUOTE=dynoguy]well you said to nascar does race at 200 mph and most rally cars crash in some type of cornering so the speeds are lower than 130 mph(just a guess since top speeds are may be 150), and the recent deaths have been caused mostly from some sort of frontal impact using a 3400 lb car( read need for HANS and higher impact mass generate by the wieght of the cars). i am a bigger fan of wrc than nascar but my thought is that the cage should never deform that much.
cheers,
mike[/QUOTE]
cheers,
mike[/QUOTE]
Yes. You need to write... uhm... something on the board 100 times!
I'm just kidding, of course, but the following was just kind of difficult to piece together what it was that you meant.
[QUOTE=dynoguy]well you said to nascar does race at 200 mph and most rally cars crash in some type of cornering so the speeds are lower than 130 mph(just a guess since top speeds are may be 150), and the recent deaths have been caused mostly from some sort of frontal impact using a 3400 lb car( read need for HANS and higher impact mass generate by the wieght of the cars). i am a bigger fan of wrc than nascar but my thought is that the cage should never deform that much.
cheers,
mike[/QUOTE]
| dynoguy | 08-26-2004 11:49 AM |
oh i see, my goof i should really preread my posts first.
mike
ps.
maybe some type of typing class would help so i could type faster to keep up with what i'm thinking so i don't forget my thought.
mike
ps.
maybe some type of typing class would help so i could type faster to keep up with what i'm thinking so i don't forget my thought.
| mrbell | 08-26-2004 06:14 PM |
Indeed... I also sometimes feel I need to glue my fingers to the proper keys as I end up typing things similar to this:
biw is rgw runw die KK FYYA NQB,,,
biw is rgw runw die KK FYYA NQB,,,
| cooleyjb | 08-26-2004 07:57 PM |
[QUOTE=Jsortor]I wouldn't be suprised if they found that one of those giant concrete blocks at the edge of the road they were talking about impacted the car right at the place you see the cage snapped.[/QUOTE]
As to all the thought that this is what caused the cage collapse.
Looking at all the pictures and the way these were set up on the road it looks like the car struck the block with the right rear fo the car near the rear of the quarter panel behind the wheel. The door area is pretty spotless so it probably didn't hit there. The wheel looks intact and relatively unscratched so it probably didn't hit there. the rear of the quarterpanel is gone. Not only from teh off course excursion but probably from the impact with the concrete barrier.
Now my question is how does this low and rear impact affect the strength of roll cage in the drivers compartment. It probably doesn't. The cage appears to have failed at the base of teh windows where it begins to bend inward toward teh roof structure. The cage failure appears to not be directly related to the impact with concrete barrier.
My 2 cents on whether or not a cage should 'absorb' energy. HECK NO. :eek: It's the only thing separating the driver from the outside world.
Joe
PS Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.
As to all the thought that this is what caused the cage collapse.
Looking at all the pictures and the way these were set up on the road it looks like the car struck the block with the right rear fo the car near the rear of the quarter panel behind the wheel. The door area is pretty spotless so it probably didn't hit there. The wheel looks intact and relatively unscratched so it probably didn't hit there. the rear of the quarterpanel is gone. Not only from teh off course excursion but probably from the impact with the concrete barrier.
Now my question is how does this low and rear impact affect the strength of roll cage in the drivers compartment. It probably doesn't. The cage appears to have failed at the base of teh windows where it begins to bend inward toward teh roof structure. The cage failure appears to not be directly related to the impact with concrete barrier.
My 2 cents on whether or not a cage should 'absorb' energy. HECK NO. :eek: It's the only thing separating the driver from the outside world.
Joe
PS Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.
| paultg | 08-26-2004 08:11 PM |
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]As to all the thought that this is what caused the cage collapse.
Looking at all the pictures and the way these were set up on the road it looks like the car struck the block with the right rear fo the car near the rear of the quarter panel behind the wheel. The door area is pretty spotless so it probably didn't hit there. The wheel looks intact and relatively unscratched so it probably didn't hit there. the rear of the quarterpanel is gone. Not only from teh off course excursion but probably from the impact with the concrete barrier.
Now my question is how does this low and rear impact affect the strength of roll cage in the drivers compartment. It probably doesn't. The cage appears to have failed at the base of teh windows where it begins to bend inward toward teh roof structure. The cage failure appears to not be directly related to the impact with concrete barrier.
My 2 cents on whether or not a cage should 'absorb' energy. HECK NO. :eek: It's the only thing separating the driver from the outside world.
Joe
PS Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. I just watched again and came to the same conclusion. It looks to me like the car might have flipped sort of end over end. Not that it matters how it flipped, but you clearly see (if you pause the video as you go along) the entire front hoop (around the front windshield) fail at the first impact with the ground. From then on it just gets worse because the cage is toast. They are both extremely lucky either way.
I'm not sure how I'd feel being a driver/co-driver. I certainly agree with the cars having to absorb impact, but after looking at that front hoop after the first roof impact it's hard for me not to say: "woops, that cage just failed".
Again, I've never built a cage, I've never raced, just my opinion. In retrospect, any person walking away from something like that means the cage did it's job.
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]
PS: Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. :D :lol:
Paul G.
Looking at all the pictures and the way these were set up on the road it looks like the car struck the block with the right rear fo the car near the rear of the quarter panel behind the wheel. The door area is pretty spotless so it probably didn't hit there. The wheel looks intact and relatively unscratched so it probably didn't hit there. the rear of the quarterpanel is gone. Not only from teh off course excursion but probably from the impact with the concrete barrier.
Now my question is how does this low and rear impact affect the strength of roll cage in the drivers compartment. It probably doesn't. The cage appears to have failed at the base of teh windows where it begins to bend inward toward teh roof structure. The cage failure appears to not be directly related to the impact with concrete barrier.
My 2 cents on whether or not a cage should 'absorb' energy. HECK NO. :eek: It's the only thing separating the driver from the outside world.
Joe
PS Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. I just watched again and came to the same conclusion. It looks to me like the car might have flipped sort of end over end. Not that it matters how it flipped, but you clearly see (if you pause the video as you go along) the entire front hoop (around the front windshield) fail at the first impact with the ground. From then on it just gets worse because the cage is toast. They are both extremely lucky either way.
I'm not sure how I'd feel being a driver/co-driver. I certainly agree with the cars having to absorb impact, but after looking at that front hoop after the first roof impact it's hard for me not to say: "woops, that cage just failed".
Again, I've never built a cage, I've never raced, just my opinion. In retrospect, any person walking away from something like that means the cage did it's job.
[QUOTE=cooleyjb]
PS: Even after seeing that wreck I still want to rally. Man I'm screwed up.[/QUOTE]
I agree 100%. :D :lol:
Paul G.
| ANZAC_1915 | 08-27-2004 12:15 AM |
[QUOTE=Rebellion]wasn't Mark Lovell's car a Prodrive prepped car? How do they say this is the worst ever?[/QUOTE]
I think they meant of their cars in the WRC. Also Lovell's car impacted one big tree on the LH side and was largely intact (or so the rumor goes). Petter's car was pretty destroyed....
When Senor Psycho (Delacour) exploded his Mits in Australia (you know, where the co-driver goes "aiiiiiiii!!!!!!!") the ISC-T guys told me they found the die-cast button box (we're stopped on stage and ok, send medical help, etc) 100 yards up the road, and I think it gets screwed to the center floor of the car or console area!!!
Prodrive certainly haven't forgotten about Lovell and Freeman's accident. I didn't really want to ask specifics when I was there last month but it was mentioned when we were talking about cages. They are very very serious about occupant safety. But rallying is dangerous.
There was an article on the UK inquest a while back, Roger broke his neck and Mark died from blunt force trauma to the head. Terribly terribly sad.
I am not convinced a HANS would have helped, you will notice the immediate change made to both factory US teams (Sub and Mits) at the time was the Recaro Pro Racer 99 SP-G (or SP-A) with lateral head support, now also widely used on the WRC cars. It is remotely possible one of these seats may have reduced Roger's injuries but that is pure speculation on my part and in no way based on any actual knowledge of the injuries or impact. I am also basing that on the immediate changes made by the factory teams (next event).
Recaro have now released a "HANS compatible" version of the seat (SP-G HANS: "Optimum interplay between HANS� system, harness, helmet and racing shell, in order for the HANS� system to achieve its full potential") as well as an XL (large ass) version of the SP-G.
I think the HANS probably has some benefit in mostly forward impacts, but clearly there is more work to be done in the field of lateral protection. The SP-G HANS and HANS combo is certainly interesting, but I'd like to test one all together.
There is some cage/Solberg/HANS discussion on SpecialStage.com right now (in USA and Car Construction).
So I guess it comes down to whether worst means in damage to car or damage to occupants. Clearly Mark and Roger's lives are worth more than a WRC car, so I assume DL was talking about the amount of damage to the car.
Glenn
I think they meant of their cars in the WRC. Also Lovell's car impacted one big tree on the LH side and was largely intact (or so the rumor goes). Petter's car was pretty destroyed....
When Senor Psycho (Delacour) exploded his Mits in Australia (you know, where the co-driver goes "aiiiiiiii!!!!!!!") the ISC-T guys told me they found the die-cast button box (we're stopped on stage and ok, send medical help, etc) 100 yards up the road, and I think it gets screwed to the center floor of the car or console area!!!
Prodrive certainly haven't forgotten about Lovell and Freeman's accident. I didn't really want to ask specifics when I was there last month but it was mentioned when we were talking about cages. They are very very serious about occupant safety. But rallying is dangerous.
There was an article on the UK inquest a while back, Roger broke his neck and Mark died from blunt force trauma to the head. Terribly terribly sad.
I am not convinced a HANS would have helped, you will notice the immediate change made to both factory US teams (Sub and Mits) at the time was the Recaro Pro Racer 99 SP-G (or SP-A) with lateral head support, now also widely used on the WRC cars. It is remotely possible one of these seats may have reduced Roger's injuries but that is pure speculation on my part and in no way based on any actual knowledge of the injuries or impact. I am also basing that on the immediate changes made by the factory teams (next event).
Recaro have now released a "HANS compatible" version of the seat (SP-G HANS: "Optimum interplay between HANS� system, harness, helmet and racing shell, in order for the HANS� system to achieve its full potential") as well as an XL (large ass) version of the SP-G.
I think the HANS probably has some benefit in mostly forward impacts, but clearly there is more work to be done in the field of lateral protection. The SP-G HANS and HANS combo is certainly interesting, but I'd like to test one all together.
There is some cage/Solberg/HANS discussion on SpecialStage.com right now (in USA and Car Construction).
So I guess it comes down to whether worst means in damage to car or damage to occupants. Clearly Mark and Roger's lives are worth more than a WRC car, so I assume DL was talking about the amount of damage to the car.
Glenn
| Rebellion | 08-27-2004 08:42 AM |
no disagreement there... I was only making a shallow comment that Prodrive was "overlooking" something in a lower racing series.
| Kha0S | 08-27-2004 11:36 AM |
Just as a side note, after seeing the commentary regarding HANS in rallying on this thread (as well as other similar threads on this site and others, such as specialstage), I'd like to direct people at the ISAAC system ([url]http://www.isaacdirect.com/[/url]) ... I haven't used it, and I'm not affiliated with them, but it seems like a very interesting option for our chosen motorsport.
/Andrew
/Andrew
| engineerx | 08-27-2004 12:24 PM |
Just a thought:
If you noticed the roof/cage collapsing on Mills... and his head/neck bending to his left = that *MAY HAVE* kept his neck from breaking and possibly greatly injuring him! .... a Head Restraint system would have kept his head in an upright position for sure and he would have taken the full impact of roof collapsing / car landing on tarmac on his head. That's why all drivers who go to track events wearing 5 or 6-point belts without a roll cage should consider wearing the OEM belts instead and leave the racing harnesses for "show" only - racing harnesses keep you "upright" - no roll cage means your roof may collapse in the event of a roll.... put those 2 together and the outcome could be tragic.
Observation : ISAAC system seems to attach to a fixed point : seats? = not much movement allowed - you're kept very upright
HANS attached to drivers body = moves with driver's torso a bit .... may be better in case of roof collapsing
I'm NOT saying these systems don't have a place in Rallying - I'm saying what could have happened to Mills had his neck been kept "upright"
They will definetely need to strengthen cages to prevent them from collapsing too much - really.... it's always a learning process and you can never account for all the possibilities.....
Lighter note : how about the absorption system used in Demolition Man when Sly crashed the cop car and it filled w/ foam = airbag for your body.... now there's a nice concept - just close your mouth and eyes before impact!
If you noticed the roof/cage collapsing on Mills... and his head/neck bending to his left = that *MAY HAVE* kept his neck from breaking and possibly greatly injuring him! .... a Head Restraint system would have kept his head in an upright position for sure and he would have taken the full impact of roof collapsing / car landing on tarmac on his head. That's why all drivers who go to track events wearing 5 or 6-point belts without a roll cage should consider wearing the OEM belts instead and leave the racing harnesses for "show" only - racing harnesses keep you "upright" - no roll cage means your roof may collapse in the event of a roll.... put those 2 together and the outcome could be tragic.
Observation : ISAAC system seems to attach to a fixed point : seats? = not much movement allowed - you're kept very upright
HANS attached to drivers body = moves with driver's torso a bit .... may be better in case of roof collapsing
I'm NOT saying these systems don't have a place in Rallying - I'm saying what could have happened to Mills had his neck been kept "upright"
They will definetely need to strengthen cages to prevent them from collapsing too much - really.... it's always a learning process and you can never account for all the possibilities.....
Lighter note : how about the absorption system used in Demolition Man when Sly crashed the cop car and it filled w/ foam = airbag for your body.... now there's a nice concept - just close your mouth and eyes before impact!
| AndyRoo | 08-27-2004 01:29 PM |
[QUOTE=engineerx]
Lighter note : how about the absorption system used in Demolition Man when Sly crashed the cop car and it filled w/ foam = airbag for your body.... now there's a nice concept - just close your mouth and eyes before impact![/QUOTE]
Yes! That movie has always stuck in my mind when thinking about car safety, which is pretty weird.
Anyway, I would hope that the cage (or body) is designed to never, ever, deform past a certain point where it intrudes into the space where the driver's/codriver's body should be.
Never heard of the ISAAC system, looks interesting. Anyone on here used or seen one?
Lighter note : how about the absorption system used in Demolition Man when Sly crashed the cop car and it filled w/ foam = airbag for your body.... now there's a nice concept - just close your mouth and eyes before impact![/QUOTE]
Yes! That movie has always stuck in my mind when thinking about car safety, which is pretty weird.
Anyway, I would hope that the cage (or body) is designed to never, ever, deform past a certain point where it intrudes into the space where the driver's/codriver's body should be.
Never heard of the ISAAC system, looks interesting. Anyone on here used or seen one?
| Chaste Automotive | 08-28-2004 01:34 AM |
Engineerx posted: If you noticed the roof/cage collapsing on Mills... and his head/neck bending to his left = that *MAY HAVE* kept his neck from breaking and possibly greatly injuring him! .... a Head Restraint system would have kept his head in an upright position for sure and he would have taken the full impact of roof collapsing / car landing on tarmac on his head. That's why all drivers who go to track events wearing 5 or 6-point belts without a roll cage should consider wearing the OEM belts instead and leave the racing harnesses for "show" only - racing harnesses keep you "upright" - no roll cage means your roof may collapse in the event of a roll.... put those 2 together and the outcome could be tragic.
Thank you for perpetuating a total myth perpetrated on the internet and by various amateur track day instructors. You can post pictures of flipped mustangs or the M3 that almost ten thousand people on this board saw flipped or talk about a cousin or friend that was lucky because they flipped blah blah blah.
1. In a roll over crash you are far from a static statue without anywhere for your head to go (if you have ever rolled a car you will know this). In fact in many roll over crashes the bulk of damage is done from the occupant being thrown about the cabin, and also brain stem injuries from the forces during the roll over which are magnified by the amount of body motion during the accident.
2. In a roll over accident you are far more likely to be ejected from a crash even with normal safety belts than you would with 4 or even six-point belts.
3. Using a racing harness wiht a factory seat may not be safe since factory seats are prone to collapse and failure.
4. Belts do not keep your neck up right they only prevent your body from moving a great distance but the body will move due to belt stretch.
5. FYI the cage did not collapse it deformed as it is designed to do, in a cage collapse the welds would have buckled. According to one article Petter reported that none of the welds cracked so the cage neither failed nor collapsed. IF you have ever seen a true cage failure or collapse you owuld realize this.
6. HANS is and was developed with a single seater driver in mind, it was designed to protect a driver from Basal skull fractures in frontal and offset frontal impacts. IT does this by keeping the head and torso at relatively the same speed during deceleration. HANS is a bit of a band-aid and has not been completely developed for all types of racing (one example is their difficulty developing a system for co-drivers) since the co-drivers sit at very different angles than drivers. Currently there are several different version of HANS, in America we have one and in Europe they have two diferent onese all made and sold under the name HANS. THe euro version are lighter and feature better construction, fit and finish. ALl of this preceeding information was given to me by Jim Downing the man credited with coming up iwth the HANS.
Thank you for perpetuating a total myth perpetrated on the internet and by various amateur track day instructors. You can post pictures of flipped mustangs or the M3 that almost ten thousand people on this board saw flipped or talk about a cousin or friend that was lucky because they flipped blah blah blah.
1. In a roll over crash you are far from a static statue without anywhere for your head to go (if you have ever rolled a car you will know this). In fact in many roll over crashes the bulk of damage is done from the occupant being thrown about the cabin, and also brain stem injuries from the forces during the roll over which are magnified by the amount of body motion during the accident.
2. In a roll over accident you are far more likely to be ejected from a crash even with normal safety belts than you would with 4 or even six-point belts.
3. Using a racing harness wiht a factory seat may not be safe since factory seats are prone to collapse and failure.
4. Belts do not keep your neck up right they only prevent your body from moving a great distance but the body will move due to belt stretch.
5. FYI the cage did not collapse it deformed as it is designed to do, in a cage collapse the welds would have buckled. According to one article Petter reported that none of the welds cracked so the cage neither failed nor collapsed. IF you have ever seen a true cage failure or collapse you owuld realize this.
6. HANS is and was developed with a single seater driver in mind, it was designed to protect a driver from Basal skull fractures in frontal and offset frontal impacts. IT does this by keeping the head and torso at relatively the same speed during deceleration. HANS is a bit of a band-aid and has not been completely developed for all types of racing (one example is their difficulty developing a system for co-drivers) since the co-drivers sit at very different angles than drivers. Currently there are several different version of HANS, in America we have one and in Europe they have two diferent onese all made and sold under the name HANS. THe euro version are lighter and feature better construction, fit and finish. ALl of this preceeding information was given to me by Jim Downing the man credited with coming up iwth the HANS.
| dynoguy | 08-28-2004 07:27 AM |
[QUOTE]5. FYI the cage did not collapse it deformed as it is designed to do, in a cage collapse the welds would have buckled. According to one article Petter reported that none of the welds cracked so the cage neither failed nor collapsed. IF you have ever seen a true cage failure or collapse you owuld realize this.[/QUOTE] huh? whats a weld buckle. what i remember seeing in the video was the top front windshield bar buckle and the codrives top door bar start to collapes. when welds are aplied correctly they should never break/crack though the weld as they are the thickest part of the joint.there could be a break/crack on either side of the weld do to.
a) to much heat aplied at time of welding which changes the heat treat of the tubing.
b) wrong tubing size/type for the area it is used for.
c) a force greater then the design of the cage or material used.(ie.tube size,type)
i know there must be something else. and yes i have welded before, and have been around racecar construction for some years.
i think i know what you wanted to say but i just whated to clarify.
cheers,
mike
a) to much heat aplied at time of welding which changes the heat treat of the tubing.
b) wrong tubing size/type for the area it is used for.
c) a force greater then the design of the cage or material used.(ie.tube size,type)
i know there must be something else. and yes i have welded before, and have been around racecar construction for some years.
i think i know what you wanted to say but i just whated to clarify.
cheers,
mike
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