| iceberger | 02-06-2006 07:05 PM |
automatic in rallycross?
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Hey, how much of a difference does a manual transmission make in rallycross? Im just wondering because I have an OBS with automatic transmission, and I would like to get involved in rallycross. Is it even worth my time to try it with an automatic tranny? Would I ever even be able to compete with similar cars with manual transmission? Thanks for the advice.
| Kyguy | 02-06-2006 08:00 PM |
I think it won't be that bad in an autocross situation but the difference in the diff between an AT & MT might give them an advantage. I autocrossed my AT L and it was fine.
| KC | 02-06-2006 08:06 PM |
2 feet, 2 pedals.... you do the math. :)
For rallycross, and just getting started, the biggest thing will be concentrating on the course and staying clean, and for the most part, it's usually 1st -> 2nd and then leave it.
Don't worry about all that and just go out and have fun. :)
--kC
For rallycross, and just getting started, the biggest thing will be concentrating on the course and staying clean, and for the most part, it's usually 1st -> 2nd and then leave it.
Don't worry about all that and just go out and have fun. :)
--kC
| fireball_jones | 02-06-2006 08:09 PM |
You could shift it yourself, to get the most out of first, and then leave it in 2 so it never goes to third.
Or something like that, I've never driven a Subie auto, but leaving it in the 1-2 position would help.
Or something like that, I've never driven a Subie auto, but leaving it in the 1-2 position would help.
| Chromer | 02-06-2006 09:53 PM |
Start in first, shift to second, leave it there. Besides, left foot braking is stupid easy in an auto.
Don't bother trying to downshift back to first. It won't downshift except under a certain speed, and it's really jerky unless you blip the throttle at exactly the right time. (3-2 downshifts work pretty well, but you shouldn't be going quick enough to need third.)
And hey, the electronic clutch pack controlling the center diff in the auto reacts faster than the LSD in the manual does...
Don't bother trying to downshift back to first. It won't downshift except under a certain speed, and it's really jerky unless you blip the throttle at exactly the right time. (3-2 downshifts work pretty well, but you shouldn't be going quick enough to need third.)
And hey, the electronic clutch pack controlling the center diff in the auto reacts faster than the LSD in the manual does...
| marc360 | 02-06-2006 11:53 PM |
I like this thread a lot because it gives me hope. I love rally stuff (I was a long time SUV driver) and just bought an AT. Can't wait to get it out in the dirt.
| flyboymike | 02-07-2006 12:50 AM |
The most important thing is to get involved. Modding the driver can start with anything except maybe an oxcart.
<----- Autocrossed his 1993 Accord automatic against all the damned Mini's in HS.
<----- Autocrossed his 1993 Accord automatic against all the damned Mini's in HS.
| davis10 | 02-07-2006 01:02 AM |
I dont think it would slow you down much, I dont rallycross yet, but Im pretty sure they stay in first and second the whole time. Especially as a beginner it would probably be faster for you just as KC said.
| Sean | 02-07-2006 02:24 AM |
Yup, just get the car out there and get seat time. You can always get another car if you get really into the sport. But you'll be fine in a slushbox. I concur on the start in 1st, shift to 2nd, and leave it there advice.
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| KC | 02-07-2006 07:50 AM |
I ran my Baja AT for a snow rally-X in 4WD Stock. Granted, it does have the sportshift, but came in 2nd... to another Baja.
--kC
--kC
| Paisan | 02-07-2006 07:53 AM |
I road raced my 96 Impreza L AT for a few years. Even held my own with the other road racers. Don't let the AT stop you from racing!
-mike
-mike
| Howl | 02-07-2006 09:53 AM |
I drive my 4EAT TS, which is basically the same setup as your's, in overnight winter drivex rally's (brisk TSD's). The speeds are higher than RallyX but on the good twisty roads I usually have it in 2nd, going up to 3rd on the straights. At my level of skill the time I loose in having less gears to choose from is probably equal to the time I save when I can concetrate on making the corner without having to worry about what gear I'm in and operating the clutch. Both hands are on the wheel. A MT would give me more flexability, but would also be a lot more to handle in a crisis.
| burnera | 02-07-2006 02:10 PM |
biggest performance factor i've seen in roadracing is when you need instant throttle to keep the rear-end in line...
and obviously trying to get the corner exit right....
and obviously trying to get the corner exit right....
| cowapult | 02-07-2006 03:07 PM |
I've rallycrossed both manual and automatic versions of the exact same car. Automatic is definitely fine.
Not much about your car matters much in rallycross. But, in this case, you could even argue that an automatic is advanageous, if anything. I'd love to only have 2 pedals to deal with when I left foot brake. (Not that left foot braking is necessary either...)
Not much about your car matters much in rallycross. But, in this case, you could even argue that an automatic is advanageous, if anything. I'd love to only have 2 pedals to deal with when I left foot brake. (Not that left foot braking is necessary either...)
| RB5 Clone | 02-07-2006 04:48 PM |
focus on good tires and your driving skills, not what kind of gearbox the car has
we had a 98 Rs auto in our group not too long ago. it ran great despite the "slushbox" esp since it had a heavy-duty shift kit in it. the thing banged off 1-2 shifts like a NASCAR stocker. (it also had a turbo 2.5, but that's a diffrent thread!)
experiment to see if your car will downshift to 1st by flooring it in 2nd. if it does, you're all set for quick rallyx runs. set shifter in 2nd, shift to 1st with your right foot.
yee--haww!
Dave G
[url]www.justturninandfloorit.spd[/url]
we had a 98 Rs auto in our group not too long ago. it ran great despite the "slushbox" esp since it had a heavy-duty shift kit in it. the thing banged off 1-2 shifts like a NASCAR stocker. (it also had a turbo 2.5, but that's a diffrent thread!)
experiment to see if your car will downshift to 1st by flooring it in 2nd. if it does, you're all set for quick rallyx runs. set shifter in 2nd, shift to 1st with your right foot.
yee--haww!
Dave G
[url]www.justturninandfloorit.spd[/url]
| MarkA | 02-07-2006 04:54 PM |
I won the Street Stock 4wd RallyX class in the California Rally Series in 2004 with my 4EAT WRX Wagon - it'll work just fine.... :)
As others have said, concetrate on your driving and go from there.
As others have said, concetrate on your driving and go from there.
| Porsche914boxer4 | 02-07-2006 10:00 PM |
Like Mark, not only have I won many events in automatic, I won the CRS championship for street stock 2WD two years in a row with automatics.
You can concentrate on driving and your line, not shifting, which many people lose a LOT of time on.
You can concentrate on driving and your line, not shifting, which many people lose a LOT of time on.
| Blue98leg | 02-07-2006 10:08 PM |
I rallycross with my 4eat all the time. I leave it in 1st. It works great.
| Howl | 02-08-2006 09:07 AM |
Just remember when it downshifts from 2nd to 1st you will be going from a possible 90/10 spilt (although you'll probably be something closer to 50/50) to 50/50 in 1st. That can snap the back end out fairly quickly if you're in the middle of a corner.
| solo2wrx | 02-08-2006 09:57 AM |
Running an automatic was the best thing you can do to learn to be a better driver when first starting out in rallycross. You never have to worry about shifting and you only have two pedals so left foot braking is easy. I have run both my WRX which is a 5 speed and now my Legacy rallycross car which is an 4EAT and the Legacy is definitely harder to go as fast because of power but you can drive it with less concentration on what gear your in.
| Fred | 02-08-2006 11:39 AM |
solo2wrx was also 3rd fastest overall at our last rallycross in that pos legacy. :)
My ideal rallyx car/ daily driver would be my 2.5RS with a Forester XT engine and auto transmission. Our FXT auto works pretty well on a rallyx course, but the smaller, lighter RS with its drivetrain would rock!
My ideal rallyx car/ daily driver would be my 2.5RS with a Forester XT engine and auto transmission. Our FXT auto works pretty well on a rallyx course, but the smaller, lighter RS with its drivetrain would rock!
| Tang 06 i wagon | 02-08-2006 11:45 AM |
Good luck to you man...
I have a manual, and its fun as heck, but i gotta admit, auto is just EASIER to deal with, so that may give you an advantage if you're just doing low level racing
I have a manual, and its fun as heck, but i gotta admit, auto is just EASIER to deal with, so that may give you an advantage if you're just doing low level racing
| ozymandius | 02-08-2006 01:52 PM |
[QUOTE]Just remember when it downshifts from 2nd to 1st you will be going from a possible 90/10 spilt (although you'll probably be something closer to 50/50) to 50/50 in 1st. That can snap the back end out fairly quickly if you're in the middle of a corner.[/QUOTE]
I thought that the early 4EATs could hit 50/50 in both 2nd and 1st gears. Even if it can't, in 2nd gear it should be pretty close to 50/50 on a loose surface so I wouldn't worry [i]too[/i] much about the back end snapping out if it downshifts. I'm speaking only with the limited experience I've got on hand though- I drive a 130 HP wagon, so a shift in power from (say) 70/30 to 50/50 doesn't make too much of a difference in the line through a corner. With more power on tap, I imagine you'll get a bigger difference.
What speed does first gear typically top out in? If the rallycross is a slower one (or you just want to focus more on getting through the corners correctly than out and out speed) you could probably just leave the thing in first gear...
I thought that the early 4EATs could hit 50/50 in both 2nd and 1st gears. Even if it can't, in 2nd gear it should be pretty close to 50/50 on a loose surface so I wouldn't worry [i]too[/i] much about the back end snapping out if it downshifts. I'm speaking only with the limited experience I've got on hand though- I drive a 130 HP wagon, so a shift in power from (say) 70/30 to 50/50 doesn't make too much of a difference in the line through a corner. With more power on tap, I imagine you'll get a bigger difference.
What speed does first gear typically top out in? If the rallycross is a slower one (or you just want to focus more on getting through the corners correctly than out and out speed) you could probably just leave the thing in first gear...
| solo2wrx | 02-08-2006 03:03 PM |
[QUOTE=ozymandius]I thought that the early 4EATs could hit 50/50 in both 2nd and 1st gears.[/QUOTE]
Not sure but I solved it by looking at a wiring diagram and cutting the wire that goes to the clutch pack which controls the torque splits. I ended up with full time 50/50 split. Not sure if it is good for street driving because my Legacy is a POS as Fred pointed out and it gets trailered to the rallycrosses.
Not sure but I solved it by looking at a wiring diagram and cutting the wire that goes to the clutch pack which controls the torque splits. I ended up with full time 50/50 split. Not sure if it is good for street driving because my Legacy is a POS as Fred pointed out and it gets trailered to the rallycrosses.
| Fred | 02-08-2006 03:22 PM |
Supposedly the FXT transmission is 50/50 when you put it in 1st and 2nd gear. A guy who used to post on the Forester forums [url]www.subaruforester.com[/url] before it went away had wired up a switch to make the split 50/50 full time any time you wanted it. I saved his instructions on my computer at home, so if nobody can find it elsewhere I may be able to upload it.
| greg donovan | 02-08-2006 03:41 PM |
[QUOTE=Fred]Supposedly the FXT transmission is 50/50 when you put it in 1st and 2nd gear. A guy who used to post on the Forester forums [url]www.subaruforester.com[/url] before it went away had wired up a switch to make the split 50/50 full time any time you wanted it. I saved his instructions on my computer at home, so if nobody can find it elsewhere I may be able to upload it.[/QUOTE]
i would love to do that to my 95 legacy awd auto wagon.
i would love to do that to my 95 legacy awd auto wagon.
| cowapult | 02-08-2006 06:22 PM |
[QUOTE=solo2wrx]Not sure but I solved it by looking at a wiring diagram and cutting the wire that goes to the clutch pack which controls the torque splits. I ended up with full time 50/50 split. Not sure if it is good for street driving because my Legacy is a POS as Fred pointed out and it gets trailered to the rallycrosses.[/QUOTE]
This is a thread jack, but Keith - that sounds sketchy to me. I don't know too much about it, but I thought old Legacy automatics go 50/50 by powering an electric solenoid which clamps the clutches together. It's only designed to duty cycle it for split seconds when it detects wheel slip. I wonder if you would burn the solenoid out by running it clamped/powered all the time. Or, the other possibility is that by clipping a wire, maybe you just disabled it and made it run 90/10 all the time.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it's covered on legacy central.
This is a thread jack, but Keith - that sounds sketchy to me. I don't know too much about it, but I thought old Legacy automatics go 50/50 by powering an electric solenoid which clamps the clutches together. It's only designed to duty cycle it for split seconds when it detects wheel slip. I wonder if you would burn the solenoid out by running it clamped/powered all the time. Or, the other possibility is that by clipping a wire, maybe you just disabled it and made it run 90/10 all the time.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it's covered on legacy central.
| solo2wrx | 02-08-2006 08:43 PM |
[QUOTE=cowapult]This is a thread jack, but Keith - that sounds sketchy to me. I don't know too much about it, but I thought old Legacy automatics go 50/50 by powering an electric solenoid which clamps the clutches together. It's only designed to duty cycle it for split seconds when it detects wheel slip. I wonder if you would burn the solenoid out by running it clamped/powered all the time. Or, the other possibility is that by clipping a wire, maybe you just disabled it and made it run 90/10 all the time.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it's covered on legacy central.[/QUOTE]
From what I figured out was that the computer actually holds the clutches apart and determines how much slip occurs in the clutch pack. I disconnected the wire that tells the solenoid to slip the clutches so it has a 50/50 split. When I got the car it was only FWD due to excessive slippage in the clutches. For whatever reason the computer never told the clutches to engage, so I took the computer out of the equation for deciding where to send power. It has worked perfectly since I cut the wire. Now it can be back on topic.
On the other hand, maybe I'm wrong. I'm sure it's covered on legacy central.[/QUOTE]
From what I figured out was that the computer actually holds the clutches apart and determines how much slip occurs in the clutch pack. I disconnected the wire that tells the solenoid to slip the clutches so it has a 50/50 split. When I got the car it was only FWD due to excessive slippage in the clutches. For whatever reason the computer never told the clutches to engage, so I took the computer out of the equation for deciding where to send power. It has worked perfectly since I cut the wire. Now it can be back on topic.
| randy zimmer | 02-08-2006 11:44 PM |
Here's what I know about automatics (not that much)...
Mike Occhipinti (a great solo2 guy) ran an older auto Impreza at Perry Park and went super in it.
He'd also share the car with 2 or three others and they didn't do anywhere near as well.
I had an auto Legacy and it did well too, Took a run or two to find the lock button. Even "locking" the shift in gear, it'd do what it wanted if it felt like it. Deal with it.
I had an auto with a bad front diff so I took an axle out and snipped a ground wire in the harness to the center diff and it locked solid.
It drove a couple months like that without a problem.
rz
Mike Occhipinti (a great solo2 guy) ran an older auto Impreza at Perry Park and went super in it.
He'd also share the car with 2 or three others and they didn't do anywhere near as well.
I had an auto Legacy and it did well too, Took a run or two to find the lock button. Even "locking" the shift in gear, it'd do what it wanted if it felt like it. Deal with it.
I had an auto with a bad front diff so I took an axle out and snipped a ground wire in the harness to the center diff and it locked solid.
It drove a couple months like that without a problem.
rz
| Kyguy | 02-09-2006 01:52 AM |
I talked to RallyKnight about AT rallying and this is what he had to say about it:
[quote]This mod can be done very cheaply as all you have to do is locate the center clutch pack power input solenoid. Supply power 12v dc to the solenoid and presto it turns itself "off". Absence of power to the solenoid is 50/50 lock. Full power is approx 90/10 front to rear.
Jon Ryther[/quote]
[quote]This mod can be done very cheaply as all you have to do is locate the center clutch pack power input solenoid. Supply power 12v dc to the solenoid and presto it turns itself "off". Absence of power to the solenoid is 50/50 lock. Full power is approx 90/10 front to rear.
Jon Ryther[/quote]
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