| Vikingmoose | 06-18-2006 06:09 PM |
STX Limited Track Setup (Brakes)
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Hello,
I need help deciding what to do with my brake setup and could use your advice. My car is an '04 WRX sedan that I use for 3 things (in order of importance/priority): 1. Daily Driver, 2. Autox, 3. Track (HPDE & PDX, non-competitive). I currently have ATE Super Blue fluid, Goodridge lines, and Carbotech Bobcats for my daily driver/autox setup. For track I use Carbotech Panther+. Stock rotors in each case. The car has 37k+ miles and still the same rotors that were on the car from the dealer when purchased new in '03. For daily driving and autox I have no complaints about my current brake setup. However I am getting more involved in track events and that is where I need help.
I have done 3 track events on said setup. Yesterday I did an event at Pocono in PA - the long course running clockwise. There were 2 straights in which I was reaching (and occasionally exceeding) 120+ and 130+ mph. My brakes held up fine for the first 2 sessions but by the 3rd session I was losing my stopping power. By the end of the 5th session I had to give it up in the straights (staying under 100-120mph) if I wanted to be able to use them for the tighter turns. Even though I've been being classed in the Novice group, I don't consider myself a Novice and find I can easily outdrive a lot of the other people in the group. For tires I've been using Hankook Z212 R-S2's.
So now I'm looking for suggestions to improve the brake setup for repeated high-speed "stops" that will work for daily driving. (Pads will be swapped before/after events.) But here's the catch - I run in STX class in autox. So I'm rather limited to what I can do without outclassing myself. [B]What would be the best option for a good track setup while still staying STX legal?[/B]
*NOTE: While I am currently in STX, I [I]may[/I] just end up saying "Screw it" and move up into DSP(?) or SM. Then my options are more open. IF I did that then I would also invest in a set of R-compounds on a dedicated set of wheels. How would that change things? What would you recommend differently?
Thank you all very much for your help and advice.
-Justin
I need help deciding what to do with my brake setup and could use your advice. My car is an '04 WRX sedan that I use for 3 things (in order of importance/priority): 1. Daily Driver, 2. Autox, 3. Track (HPDE & PDX, non-competitive). I currently have ATE Super Blue fluid, Goodridge lines, and Carbotech Bobcats for my daily driver/autox setup. For track I use Carbotech Panther+. Stock rotors in each case. The car has 37k+ miles and still the same rotors that were on the car from the dealer when purchased new in '03. For daily driving and autox I have no complaints about my current brake setup. However I am getting more involved in track events and that is where I need help.
I have done 3 track events on said setup. Yesterday I did an event at Pocono in PA - the long course running clockwise. There were 2 straights in which I was reaching (and occasionally exceeding) 120+ and 130+ mph. My brakes held up fine for the first 2 sessions but by the 3rd session I was losing my stopping power. By the end of the 5th session I had to give it up in the straights (staying under 100-120mph) if I wanted to be able to use them for the tighter turns. Even though I've been being classed in the Novice group, I don't consider myself a Novice and find I can easily outdrive a lot of the other people in the group. For tires I've been using Hankook Z212 R-S2's.
So now I'm looking for suggestions to improve the brake setup for repeated high-speed "stops" that will work for daily driving. (Pads will be swapped before/after events.) But here's the catch - I run in STX class in autox. So I'm rather limited to what I can do without outclassing myself. [B]What would be the best option for a good track setup while still staying STX legal?[/B]
*NOTE: While I am currently in STX, I [I]may[/I] just end up saying "Screw it" and move up into DSP(?) or SM. Then my options are more open. IF I did that then I would also invest in a set of R-compounds on a dedicated set of wheels. How would that change things? What would you recommend differently?
Thank you all very much for your help and advice.
-Justin
| PhilC | 06-18-2006 07:52 PM |
Actually in ESP your brake options are more limited than they are in STX. STX allows you to do any brakes you want as long as the rotors are ferrous or aluminum (allows aluminum hats on ferrous rotors but not things like titanium rotors) and the rotors are at least as big as the stock ones.
14.11.A.7. Brake rotors may be replaced with any rotor of equal or
larger diameter made from a ferrous or aluminum alloy.
Calipers are unrestricted, but must mount to the original
attachment points. Drum brakes may be replaced with disk
brakes of a diameter equal to or greater than the inside diameter
of the standard drum part. Brake backing plates (dust
shields) may be modified the minimum amount necessary to
accommodate allowed alternate rotors and calipers.
So go big, we're using the StopTech 328x28mm kit on the front of our STX car and we've been very very happy with them so far.
14.11.A.7. Brake rotors may be replaced with any rotor of equal or
larger diameter made from a ferrous or aluminum alloy.
Calipers are unrestricted, but must mount to the original
attachment points. Drum brakes may be replaced with disk
brakes of a diameter equal to or greater than the inside diameter
of the standard drum part. Brake backing plates (dust
shields) may be modified the minimum amount necessary to
accommodate allowed alternate rotors and calipers.
So go big, we're using the StopTech 328x28mm kit on the front of our STX car and we've been very very happy with them so far.
| Vikingmoose | 06-18-2006 08:19 PM |
[QUOTE=PhilC]Actually in ESP your brake options are more limited than they are in STX.[/QUOTE]Whoa...really??? You learn something new everyday.
I know you're using the StopTech kit, but what other BBKs would you recommend? Would the Subaru 4/2-pot setup be any good instead of a BBK, or should I really go that extra step?
What about rotors? Any suggestions or recommendations? 1-piece vs 2-piece?
Sorry for all the questions. Anything beyond pads/lines/fluid is beyond me.
I know you're using the StopTech kit, but what other BBKs would you recommend? Would the Subaru 4/2-pot setup be any good instead of a BBK, or should I really go that extra step?
What about rotors? Any suggestions or recommendations? 1-piece vs 2-piece?
Sorry for all the questions. Anything beyond pads/lines/fluid is beyond me.
| DrBiggly | 06-18-2006 09:56 PM |
Vikingmoose,
You could go to a full STi brake setup in STX and it would be legal.
There are other options like the Stoptech setups (lots of those, recommended by Gary Sheehan I believe) and Wilwood setups as well.
PhilC is on the money. :)
-Biggly
You could go to a full STi brake setup in STX and it would be legal.
There are other options like the Stoptech setups (lots of those, recommended by Gary Sheehan I believe) and Wilwood setups as well.
PhilC is on the money. :)
-Biggly
| Vikingmoose | 06-18-2006 10:41 PM |
Ok, so now that I know I have the option of a BBK, help me choose what is best for me...please?
Do I really need a BBK or would the Subaru 4/2-Pot setup with good rotors be ok? Maybe some STi Brembo take-offs would be good?
If I need a BBK, would I need both the front and rear or just the front? Which ones have the most options for pads? What about brake bias? I would like to shift the bias to the rear a bit for balance. I can't imagine a BBK that shifts bias MORE forward being a good thing. Are there any maintenance concerns to think about?
Thanks!
Do I really need a BBK or would the Subaru 4/2-Pot setup with good rotors be ok? Maybe some STi Brembo take-offs would be good?
If I need a BBK, would I need both the front and rear or just the front? Which ones have the most options for pads? What about brake bias? I would like to shift the bias to the rear a bit for balance. I can't imagine a BBK that shifts bias MORE forward being a good thing. Are there any maintenance concerns to think about?
Thanks!
| Vikingmoose | 06-18-2006 10:49 PM |
PS - I noticed Mauro Motorsports is selling the STi 4/2-Pot setup with calipers, OEM rotors, pad hardware, anti-rattle springs, and Ferodo DS 2500 pads for $2000. Would something like this be good for high speed track days? [URL=http://store.mauromotorsports.com/costifrandre1.html]Link[/URL]
| PJC1909 | 06-18-2006 10:59 PM |
Vikingmoose,
Before you fold on the stock brakes and go BBK, you might try:
1) Removing the front dust shields (they're bolted on)
2) Ducting some air to the fronts
3) Do the H6 upgrade
4) Myles at racecomp has a very nice bolt on for brake cooling (Kool Brake Kit) it requires 3" duct.
These things help alot at the track and are all STX legal.
HTH
Before you fold on the stock brakes and go BBK, you might try:
1) Removing the front dust shields (they're bolted on)
2) Ducting some air to the fronts
3) Do the H6 upgrade
4) Myles at racecomp has a very nice bolt on for brake cooling (Kool Brake Kit) it requires 3" duct.
These things help alot at the track and are all STX legal.
HTH
| Vikingmoose | 06-18-2006 11:09 PM |
^ Thank YOU for those suggestions. :) That's a huge difference in cost between those items and a BBK. If there are options out there before making the jump to a BBK then I would like to explore those first.
Should I be adding a nice set of rotors to that list? I'm still on the original rotors which have seen lots of autox and 3 track days.
Also, I'm not familiar with the front dust shields. Care to elaborate?
Should I be adding a nice set of rotors to that list? I'm still on the original rotors which have seen lots of autox and 3 track days.
Also, I'm not familiar with the front dust shields. Care to elaborate?
| Sideshowbob | 06-18-2006 11:52 PM |
The dust shield is on the inside of the rotor, it prevents dust from going somewhere not all that effectively. Many people remove it to improve rotor cooling, which helps ALOT with WRX's.
There is a thread [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1002322]HERE[/URL] with people talking about the mods/pads/etc. that people use to get 4 pots to stop a WRX reliably on the track. I am not sure if the things they speak of are STX legal (venting and ducting).
That said, if I ever go BBK, I will ignore 4 pots and go right to Stoptech.
IMO, Esp. if you plan on tracking the car a few more times. I have heard people ay the Stoptechs are better than the brembo's.
There is a thread [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1002322]HERE[/URL] with people talking about the mods/pads/etc. that people use to get 4 pots to stop a WRX reliably on the track. I am not sure if the things they speak of are STX legal (venting and ducting).
That said, if I ever go BBK, I will ignore 4 pots and go right to Stoptech.
IMO, Esp. if you plan on tracking the car a few more times. I have heard people ay the Stoptechs are better than the brembo's.
| Buckholz | 06-19-2006 12:51 AM |
How long has the current brake fluid been in?
| jcroy66 | 06-19-2006 07:37 AM |
Actually PJC1909, what allowance makes you think that removing brake dust shields and brake ducting is STX-legal?? "Show me the rulebook!" I'm 99% sure the only thing you mentioned that is actually STX-legal is the H6 upgrade.
| KC | 06-19-2006 07:52 AM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]Actually PJC1909, what allowance makes you think that removing brake dust shields and brake ducting is STX-legal?? "Show me the rulebook!" I'm 99% sure the only thing you mentioned that is actually STX-legal is the H6 upgrade.[/QUOTE]
1) Removing the front dust shields (they're bolted on)
If they're bolted on, you can remove them for the track day and put them back on before the auto-x. They're required to have on the car for auto-x. However, I think they are welded. At least the rears are.
2) Ducting some air to the fronts
Not legal in STX. No ducting is allowed. However, if you can devise a way to add it before the HPDE, and then revert back to OEM before the auto-x, then you have a legal car.
3) Do the H6 upgrade
Fully legal, but I don't see how that will help with cooling at track speeds.
4) Myles at racecomp has a very nice bolt on for brake cooling (Kool Brake Kit) it requires 3" duct.
See # 2 response above.
Cooling would be the best bet with what you have now as if you were losing braking after your third session (also hotter time of the day) I would also hinge my bets on brake fluid becoming too hot, and being used quite a bit on the 1st two sessions.
Find a way to go from OEM for auto-x to modified for track days, but you can't do both. Auto-x has different braking qualities on their courses... ie: you hardly ever. :)
--kC
1) Removing the front dust shields (they're bolted on)
If they're bolted on, you can remove them for the track day and put them back on before the auto-x. They're required to have on the car for auto-x. However, I think they are welded. At least the rears are.
2) Ducting some air to the fronts
Not legal in STX. No ducting is allowed. However, if you can devise a way to add it before the HPDE, and then revert back to OEM before the auto-x, then you have a legal car.
3) Do the H6 upgrade
Fully legal, but I don't see how that will help with cooling at track speeds.
4) Myles at racecomp has a very nice bolt on for brake cooling (Kool Brake Kit) it requires 3" duct.
See # 2 response above.
Cooling would be the best bet with what you have now as if you were losing braking after your third session (also hotter time of the day) I would also hinge my bets on brake fluid becoming too hot, and being used quite a bit on the 1st two sessions.
Find a way to go from OEM for auto-x to modified for track days, but you can't do both. Auto-x has different braking qualities on their courses... ie: you hardly ever. :)
--kC
| jcroy66 | 06-19-2006 09:40 AM |
KC, your response was 100% what I was thinking, but I didn't want to take the time before work to post such a fully-fleshed-out response. :)
| PJC1909 | 06-19-2006 01:19 PM |
bulleted items from the motorsports supersticky:
[list]Air ducts for brakes
Brake dust shield modifications to accomodate alternate rotors and calipers.[/list]
The dust shield rule is more restrictive than I recalled, :o
but the KBK could maybe be considered "air duct for brakes."
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174189&page=52&pp=25]Supersticky link[/URL]
edit: You remove the dust shield for the H6. Trust me. It helps.
[list]Air ducts for brakes
Brake dust shield modifications to accomodate alternate rotors and calipers.[/list]
The dust shield rule is more restrictive than I recalled, :o
but the KBK could maybe be considered "air duct for brakes."
[URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174189&page=52&pp=25]Supersticky link[/URL]
edit: You remove the dust shield for the H6. Trust me. It helps.
| KC | 06-19-2006 01:22 PM |
14.6.c: [QUOTE]Air ducts may be fitted to the brakes, provided that they extend
in a forward direction only, and that no changes are made in the
body/structure for their use. They may serve no other purpose.[/QUOTE]
Forgot about that one. You can add ducting... as long as you don't have to cut through/remove anything. :)
--kC
in a forward direction only, and that no changes are made in the
body/structure for their use. They may serve no other purpose.[/QUOTE]
Forgot about that one. You can add ducting... as long as you don't have to cut through/remove anything. :)
--kC
| jcroy66 | 06-19-2006 03:07 PM |
Hmm, yeah, ok, sounds like I was wrong. Maybe I didn't remember because I just couldn't imagine an effective ducting method on most cars that didn't involve cutting. :) Or maybe because I was looking in the STX section, forgetting that STS also allowed some brake mods. Regardless, I was wrong, I admit it. :)
As for dust shields:
[quote]Brake backing plates (dust shields) may be modified the minimum amount necessary to accommodate allowed alternate rotors and calipers.[/quote]
The "minimum amount necessary". And note the allowance is only for accomodation of alternate rotors and calipers, not "just because".
As for dust shields:
[quote]Brake backing plates (dust shields) may be modified the minimum amount necessary to accommodate allowed alternate rotors and calipers.[/quote]
The "minimum amount necessary". And note the allowance is only for accomodation of alternate rotors and calipers, not "just because".
| jcroy66 | 06-19-2006 03:12 PM |
P.S. Believe me, if I thought any PC would buy into that removing my brake shields was the "minimal amount necessary" to accomodate my StopTechs (or even "just because"), I'd do it in a heart-beat. Even with stock brakes, my brake shields kept deforming and rubbing up against my rotors. It took some "minimum amount necessary" with a BFH to accomodate the StopTechs. So sure, I'd love to take them off. But I simply can't imagine any PC accepting complete brake shield removal as a legal mod.
| Butt Dyno | 06-19-2006 03:40 PM |
[QUOTE=jcroy66]It took some "minimum amount necessary" with a BFH to accomodate the StopTechs.[/QUOTE]:lol:
| Vikingmoose | 06-19-2006 08:20 PM |
First of all - Guys, thank you so much for the great suggestions. I really appreciate the help. I think have a good idea of what to look into now. But just to keep things rolling for my own personal edification (yah, I'm selfish)...
1. The Kool Brake Kit looks like it's a must. I've been eyeing that kit anyways, so now I have an excuse to use it. I think I'll try to rig it up like BIGSKY did using the fog light bezel.
2. H6 Upgrade - Unless I'm missing something, it seems like it just upgrades the rear rotor to a larger one??? So if that's the case, couldn't I just get a bigger/better rotor by some aftermarket company? (ie: RB, DBA, StopTech, etc)
Those 2 items seem to be the 'biggies'...and removing the front dust shields. If I upgrade the rears to either the H6 or other, will I need to do anything else to the fronts other than the brake ducts? No one has mentioned replacing the front rotors. That seems odd...:confused:
Call me crazy, but I was not really expecting to have to do so little (brake ducts, front dust shields, H6 upgrade) to get the brakes up to par(?) - they just seem so...minimal??? :huh:
1. The Kool Brake Kit looks like it's a must. I've been eyeing that kit anyways, so now I have an excuse to use it. I think I'll try to rig it up like BIGSKY did using the fog light bezel.
2. H6 Upgrade - Unless I'm missing something, it seems like it just upgrades the rear rotor to a larger one??? So if that's the case, couldn't I just get a bigger/better rotor by some aftermarket company? (ie: RB, DBA, StopTech, etc)
Those 2 items seem to be the 'biggies'...and removing the front dust shields. If I upgrade the rears to either the H6 or other, will I need to do anything else to the fronts other than the brake ducts? No one has mentioned replacing the front rotors. That seems odd...:confused:
Call me crazy, but I was not really expecting to have to do so little (brake ducts, front dust shields, H6 upgrade) to get the brakes up to par(?) - they just seem so...minimal??? :huh:
| Butt Dyno | 06-19-2006 08:27 PM |
[QUOTE=Vikingmoose]2. H6 Upgrade - Unless I'm missing something, it seems like it just upgrades the rear rotor to a larger one??? So if that's the case, couldn't I just get a bigger/better rotor by some aftermarket company? (ie: RB, DBA, StopTech, etc)[/quote]Yep. Here's a list of known H6-sized rotors:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562057[/url]
You still need the bracket tho.
[QUOTE=Vikingmoose]Those 2 items seem to be the 'biggies'...and removing the front dust shields. If I upgrade the rears to either the H6 or other, will I need to do anything else to the fronts other than the brake ducts? No one has mentioned replacing the front rotors. That seems odd...:confused:
Call me crazy, but I was not really expecting to have to do so little (brake ducts, front dust shields, H6 upgrade) to get the brakes up to par(?) - they just seem so...minimal??? :huh:[/QUOTE]For reference, Gary Sheehan raced (RACED) a WRX on the stock calipers/rotors and had it set up to not fade.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197590[/url]
I am not 100% sure what was involved other than the pads/fluid and IIRC some ducting.
So... despite how small they look, yeah, it's possible :)
john
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=562057[/url]
You still need the bracket tho.
[QUOTE=Vikingmoose]Those 2 items seem to be the 'biggies'...and removing the front dust shields. If I upgrade the rears to either the H6 or other, will I need to do anything else to the fronts other than the brake ducts? No one has mentioned replacing the front rotors. That seems odd...:confused:
Call me crazy, but I was not really expecting to have to do so little (brake ducts, front dust shields, H6 upgrade) to get the brakes up to par(?) - they just seem so...minimal??? :huh:[/QUOTE]For reference, Gary Sheehan raced (RACED) a WRX on the stock calipers/rotors and had it set up to not fade.
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197590[/url]
I am not 100% sure what was involved other than the pads/fluid and IIRC some ducting.
So... despite how small they look, yeah, it's possible :)
john
| jcroy66 | 06-19-2006 08:33 PM |
The very first response you got:
[QUOTE=PhilC]So go big, we're using the StopTech 328x28mm kit on the front of our STX car and we've been very very happy with them so far.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=PhilC]So go big, we're using the StopTech 328x28mm kit on the front of our STX car and we've been very very happy with them so far.[/QUOTE]
| Vikingmoose | 06-19-2006 08:50 PM |
[B]ButtDyno[/B] - Thanks for the links. It sounds like I can use one of those rotors in the first link in conjuction with the stock rear calipers and pads, as long as I use the H6 bracket. Sounds like a simple, yet effective, upgrade for the rear.
Gary Sheehan also mentioned in that link that he/they did upgrade to the StopTech 328mm BBK up front but kept the rear stock...minus pads. It sounds like that could be a very good upgrade, and it doesn't seem like I would need to do anything to the rear brakes...other than [I]maybe[/I] do the H6 upgrade.
[B]jcroy66[/B] - Yes, I saw that...but I was just seeing what other options there are BEFORE going to a BBK. I may just go with the StopTech 328mm BBK and just call it a day though.
Gary Sheehan also mentioned in that link that he/they did upgrade to the StopTech 328mm BBK up front but kept the rear stock...minus pads. It sounds like that could be a very good upgrade, and it doesn't seem like I would need to do anything to the rear brakes...other than [I]maybe[/I] do the H6 upgrade.
[B]jcroy66[/B] - Yes, I saw that...but I was just seeing what other options there are BEFORE going to a BBK. I may just go with the StopTech 328mm BBK and just call it a day though.
| PhilC | 06-20-2006 09:01 AM |
If you go with the StopTech kit then you don't need anything in the rear except pads and lines. If you go with pretty much any other BBK you'll want to do something to help shift the brake bias towards the back, H6 or other. Most BBKs shift the balance even further towards the front than stock, something the WRX most definitely does not need.
| Vikingmoose | 06-20-2006 08:39 PM |
Thanks for all the suggestions and advice. Here's what I've decided on:
1. Racecomp Engineering's Kool Brake Kit (300* version, unless the 500* hoses are absolutely necessary)
2. StopTech (F) BBK (328x28)
3. StopTech OEM-size rear slotted rotors (optional)
It's not the cheapest option, but it's also not the most expensive. This setup should be more than enough for my needs. Thanks all! :)
1. Racecomp Engineering's Kool Brake Kit (300* version, unless the 500* hoses are absolutely necessary)
2. StopTech (F) BBK (328x28)
3. StopTech OEM-size rear slotted rotors (optional)
It's not the cheapest option, but it's also not the most expensive. This setup should be more than enough for my needs. Thanks all! :)
| PossumK | 06-20-2006 09:57 PM |
Damn, so the new job's paying that much more, eh? :p
| Vikingmoose | 06-20-2006 10:12 PM |
Nope - that must be why I seem to be LOSING money instead of making it??? :lol: :(
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