| zoomfactor | 02-22-2003 02:43 PM |
SCCA National's issue - WRX/STX and Cat location
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Just an FYI for all you guys running in STX. There was a discussion today at the SCCA Nationals about what is the legal Cat placement.
In particular, one participant believes that the "primary" cat in the WRX is located in the downpipe and [B]not [/B] in the first mid-pipe. So anyone who removed this cat could be protested if the replacement is not within 6 inches.
The other camp consists of those who installed a downpipe without a cat and left the factory "third" cat in place.
So be prepared to support your arguments.
In particular, one participant believes that the "primary" cat in the WRX is located in the downpipe and [B]not [/B] in the first mid-pipe. So anyone who removed this cat could be protested if the replacement is not within 6 inches.
The other camp consists of those who installed a downpipe without a cat and left the factory "third" cat in place.
So be prepared to support your arguments.
| Davenow | 02-22-2003 04:06 PM |
<<<<< SO GLAD I am going to be in SM this season
| KC | 02-22-2003 04:39 PM |
Define 'Primary'
I beleive the Neon SRT-4 has only one cat on the downpipe....
Gonna need to look into this a little further, or get a clarification.
Was there any protests on it?
I beleive the Neon SRT-4 has only one cat on the downpipe....
Gonna need to look into this a little further, or get a clarification.
Was there any protests on it?
| trhoppe | 02-22-2003 05:10 PM |
Jeeeeeezus christ people, how many times has this been discussed?????
July Fastrack
[url]http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-06.pdf[/url]
page 12 of 32, item 7 under Solo, Tech Bulletins.
"7) Street Touring X Class: The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Issue resolved, it doest matter where the hell your ONE catalytic converter is.
-Tom
July Fastrack
[url]http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-06.pdf[/url]
page 12 of 32, item 7 under Solo, Tech Bulletins.
"7) Street Touring X Class: The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection standards at normal vehicle operating temperature."
Issue resolved, it doest matter where the hell your ONE catalytic converter is.
-Tom
| zoomfactor | 02-22-2003 05:13 PM |
I think that the definition of "primary" is going to be the basis for any protest.
As far as protests... it may depend on who wins.
IIRC, as of Saturday early afternoon, it looks like the top two STX cars are WRXs.
<edited>
As far as protests... it may depend on who wins.
IIRC, as of Saturday early afternoon, it looks like the top two STX cars are WRXs.
<edited>
| zoomfactor | 02-22-2003 05:17 PM |
Tom,
We'll see. I was just saying what went on today.
We'll see. I was just saying what went on today.
| trhoppe | 02-22-2003 05:22 PM |
[QUOTE]I think that the definition of "primary" is going to be the basis for any protest. [/QUOTE] It doesnt matter what "primary" is, ALL the cats on ANY STX car can be replaced by ONE cat.
You can put a damn catalytic converter on your exhaust TIP if you wanted to.
-Tom
You can put a damn catalytic converter on your exhaust TIP if you wanted to.
-Tom
| trhoppe | 02-22-2003 05:25 PM |
I just talked to Michael (Dussander) on the phone a few mins ago. He is a little over a tenth back behind Kiko, and Kiko just asked him about it. He said he wasnt going to protest, but that this issue needs to be figured out.
Looks like even though it was in a Fastrack it didnt make it into the 2003 rule book which is the issue.
-Tom
Looks like even though it was in a Fastrack it didnt make it into the 2003 rule book which is the issue.
-Tom
| KC | 02-22-2003 05:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]I just talked to Michael (Dussander) on the phone a few mins ago. He is a little over a tenth back behind Kiko, and Kiko just asked him about it. He said he wasnt going to protest, but that this issue needs to be figured out.
Looks like even though it was in a Fastrack it didnt make it into the 2003 rule book which is the issue.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]It's in the rule book. It's sitting right here.
The term that's going to be at issue is 'Primary'.
Does the shop manual have definition for a 'primary' cat? If not, then it's not open to intrepretation on the compeititors side. They both do an equal amount of work.
If anything the one on the DP does more work then the last cat in line.
--kC
[B]I just talked to Michael (Dussander) on the phone a few mins ago. He is a little over a tenth back behind Kiko, and Kiko just asked him about it. He said he wasnt going to protest, but that this issue needs to be figured out.
Looks like even though it was in a Fastrack it didnt make it into the 2003 rule book which is the issue.
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]It's in the rule book. It's sitting right here.
The term that's going to be at issue is 'Primary'.
Does the shop manual have definition for a 'primary' cat? If not, then it's not open to intrepretation on the compeititors side. They both do an equal amount of work.
If anything the one on the DP does more work then the last cat in line.
--kC
| driggity | 02-22-2003 06:13 PM |
The Service manual refers to them as the precatalytic converter (up-pipe), front catalytic converter, and rear catalytic converter. I haven't seen one referred to as the primary.
| ChrisW | 02-22-2003 08:00 PM |
[QUOTE]
[URL=http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-06.pdf]July Fastrack[/URL]
[i]page 12 of 32, item 7 under Solo, Tech Bulletins.[/i]
7) Street Touring X Class: The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection
standards at normal vehicle operating temperature.
[/QUOTE]
The rule book,
[QUOTE][i]17.11.A.6[/i]
High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original primary unit. Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced with a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit. The resulting configuration must meet federal emissions standards at normal vehicle operating temps.
[/QUOTE]
We need to know what primary means.
[QUOTE]The Service manual refers to them as the precatalytic converter (up-pipe), front catalytic converter, and rear catalytic converter. I haven't seen one referred to as the primary.[/QUOTE]
Taking a conservative look, I would say the first cat is the primay since we are able to remove the precat with the second part of the rule, then I would say we need to keep a cat within six inches of the cat in the down pipe....
that presents a bit of a problem for me at this time.:( I may take the conservative approach and just add a second cat to the exhaust.:rolleyes:
[URL=http://www.scca.org/news/fastrack/02-06.pdf]July Fastrack[/URL]
[i]page 12 of 32, item 7 under Solo, Tech Bulletins.[/i]
7) Street Touring X Class: The "precat(s)" and primary catalytic converter may all be replaced by a single converter, provided the resultant configuration meets Federal emissions inspection
standards at normal vehicle operating temperature.
[/QUOTE]
The rule book,
[QUOTE][i]17.11.A.6[/i]
High flow catalytic converters are allowed, but must attach within six inches of the original primary unit. Multiple catalytic converters may be replaced with a single unit, provided the single unit is within six inches of the original primary unit. The resulting configuration must meet federal emissions standards at normal vehicle operating temps.
[/QUOTE]
We need to know what primary means.
[QUOTE]The Service manual refers to them as the precatalytic converter (up-pipe), front catalytic converter, and rear catalytic converter. I haven't seen one referred to as the primary.[/QUOTE]
Taking a conservative look, I would say the first cat is the primay since we are able to remove the precat with the second part of the rule, then I would say we need to keep a cat within six inches of the cat in the down pipe....
that presents a bit of a problem for me at this time.:( I may take the conservative approach and just add a second cat to the exhaust.:rolleyes:
| zoomfactor | 02-22-2003 11:00 PM |
OT -- by the way, Kiko is running 225's and Dussander is running 245's (nice fit!).
| KC | 02-23-2003 05:02 PM |
Hmm.... was it two different subie guys? Like the top 2? I would say they should have protested each other. It would have settled the case really fast. :)
| Mighty Mouse | 02-23-2003 09:03 PM |
The 3rd cat is the primary one with out a doubt. If you look at all vehicles with dual cats, the 2nd o2 sensor is always located behind the last cat wich is always the largest one.
The precat starts to clean the exhaust alot quicker than the main cat. The purpose for the precat is to reduce emittions in the exhaust while the main cat reaches normal operating temperature.
The precat reaches normal op temps alot sooner due to its smaller size.
The SRT-4 has one cat in the downpipe.
Happy boosting.
Hector
The precat starts to clean the exhaust alot quicker than the main cat. The purpose for the precat is to reduce emittions in the exhaust while the main cat reaches normal operating temperature.
The precat reaches normal op temps alot sooner due to its smaller size.
The SRT-4 has one cat in the downpipe.
Happy boosting.
Hector
| driggity | 02-23-2003 11:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Mighty Mouse [/i]
[B]The 3rd cat is the primary one with out a doubt. If you look at all vehicles with dual cats, the 2nd o2 sensor is always located behind the last cat wich is always the largest one.[/B][/QUOTE]
Our O2 sensor is before the last cat, not behind it.
[B]The 3rd cat is the primary one with out a doubt. If you look at all vehicles with dual cats, the 2nd o2 sensor is always located behind the last cat wich is always the largest one.[/B][/QUOTE]
Our O2 sensor is before the last cat, not behind it.
| KC | 02-24-2003 08:06 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]
Our O2 sensor is before the last cat, not behind it. [/B][/QUOTE]Yep.
This is a stong argument for the 'primary' cat to be the one on the DP since the 3rd one on the WRX does nothing to assist measurable readings that the ECU needs to see for emissions. Most of the work is done by the cat on the DP, leaving the cat after the o2 sensor just as a purifyer, catching stuff the one on the DP coudln't get.
I know that's not what many people are going to want to hear, that they can replace either one (and I fully support that... since 'primary' is too ambiguous) but if push came to shove, I would have to say the one on the DP has a stronger chance of being 'labeled' the primary cat, just because of it's essential use in the emissions system.
--kC
[B]
Our O2 sensor is before the last cat, not behind it. [/B][/QUOTE]Yep.
This is a stong argument for the 'primary' cat to be the one on the DP since the 3rd one on the WRX does nothing to assist measurable readings that the ECU needs to see for emissions. Most of the work is done by the cat on the DP, leaving the cat after the o2 sensor just as a purifyer, catching stuff the one on the DP coudln't get.
I know that's not what many people are going to want to hear, that they can replace either one (and I fully support that... since 'primary' is too ambiguous) but if push came to shove, I would have to say the one on the DP has a stronger chance of being 'labeled' the primary cat, just because of it's essential use in the emissions system.
--kC
| paultg | 02-24-2003 08:31 AM |
[QUOTE]
1. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal.
2. [b]Being or standing first in a list, series, or sequence.[/b]
3. [b]Occurring first in time or sequence; earliest.[/b]
4. Being or existing as the first or earliest of a kind; primitive. [/QUOTE]
[url]www.dictionary.com[/url] - "primary"
Paul G.
1. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal.
2. [b]Being or standing first in a list, series, or sequence.[/b]
3. [b]Occurring first in time or sequence; earliest.[/b]
4. Being or existing as the first or earliest of a kind; primitive. [/QUOTE]
[url]www.dictionary.com[/url] - "primary"
Paul G.
| jblaine | 02-24-2003 08:58 AM |
Right, but the problem I think is:
[b]1. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal. [/b]
... and everyone's interpretation of which one is of the "highest importance".
By the way, this is the kind of BS that will cause me to never even remotely consider competitive motorsports.
Give me a break.
[b]1. First or highest in rank, quality, or importance; principal. [/b]
... and everyone's interpretation of which one is of the "highest importance".
By the way, this is the kind of BS that will cause me to never even remotely consider competitive motorsports.
Give me a break.
| kiko seibt | 02-24-2003 09:55 AM |
Clarification
�
�
Clarification
The rules need to be clear about this, the Shop Manual doesn�t say too much about �Primary cat� but According with Subaru is the closer to turbo .
?
Tom, how many times have we talked about this??? not enough!!! until we get clear rules.
The National Tour Saturday Fast course and Sunday big slalom probably good for 245�s
I think Michael drove excellent regardless all the issues ( Down pipe,. computer Ecutek) Congratulations .
Kiko
The rules need to be clear about this, the Shop Manual doesn�t say too much about �Primary cat� but According with Subaru is the closer to turbo .
?
Tom, how many times have we talked about this??? not enough!!! until we get clear rules.
The National Tour Saturday Fast course and Sunday big slalom probably good for 245�s
I think Michael drove excellent regardless all the issues ( Down pipe,. computer Ecutek) Congratulations .
Kiko
| 10th Warrior | 02-24-2003 10:45 AM |
just something else to think about. from a subaru engineer's point of view, the JDM WRX's don't have a cat in the up pipe. you could potentially argue that the car was not designed with this in mind and that it was added as an after thought to the US-spec car to meet our emmissions, hence, its not the primary cat. :lol: have fun.
| KC | 02-24-2003 11:28 AM |
I see what happened....
The FasTrack combined all three into you can go down to one.
The way it's currently worded in the rulebook is quite different.
If you had your car setup to the fastrack definition, I think you should be legal.
Looks like someone tried clarifying it for the ruylebook, but fux0red it up along the way.
I'm going to e-mail howard.
Edit: I emailed Doug Gill as he's the guy I believe we should be conacting about this stuff since Howard is in a new position.
--kC
The FasTrack combined all three into you can go down to one.
The way it's currently worded in the rulebook is quite different.
If you had your car setup to the fastrack definition, I think you should be legal.
Looks like someone tried clarifying it for the ruylebook, but fux0red it up along the way.
I'm going to e-mail howard.
Edit: I emailed Doug Gill as he's the guy I believe we should be conacting about this stuff since Howard is in a new position.
--kC
| Dussander | 02-24-2003 01:46 PM |
Wow, looks like you guys already started this thread. The problem with the FastTrack wording is that it went away as soon as the 2003 rule book came out. I didn't even read the 2003 STX rules until Kiko pointed out the change to me. So, I'm standing there in Ft. Myers, going "damn, I now don't have the correct cat" because they changed the rules on me. I got the 2003 rule book 2 weeks ago. That's not a whole lot of time.
Anyway, there was a protest against me, to get the rule sorted out. I lost the protest, but wasn't penalized, meaning I kept my time and place. I then filed an Appeal so they could fix the damn wording. Not only is "primary" vague, but "six inches" can be interpreted different ways. Hopefully they can get some better wording for it soon.
I didn't mind the protest, but my wife was a little pissed, because I couldn't take her for lunch because my car was in impound for the rest of the day.
I was worried about the ProSolo next week because I really don't have the time to change the cat (independent of the fact that the rules aren't clear enough for me to really fix it) but I got a verbal, "you will be OK" from Howard.
My favorite quote of the weekend was from Mike King after I told him I was getting protested, "Welcome to your first National Tour."
:D
Anyway, there was a protest against me, to get the rule sorted out. I lost the protest, but wasn't penalized, meaning I kept my time and place. I then filed an Appeal so they could fix the damn wording. Not only is "primary" vague, but "six inches" can be interpreted different ways. Hopefully they can get some better wording for it soon.
I didn't mind the protest, but my wife was a little pissed, because I couldn't take her for lunch because my car was in impound for the rest of the day.
I was worried about the ProSolo next week because I really don't have the time to change the cat (independent of the fact that the rules aren't clear enough for me to really fix it) but I got a verbal, "you will be OK" from Howard.
My favorite quote of the weekend was from Mike King after I told him I was getting protested, "Welcome to your first National Tour."
:D
| trhoppe | 02-24-2003 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE]My favorite quote of the weekend was from Mike King after I told him I was getting protested, "Welcome to your first National Tour." [/QUOTE] Hehe, congrats on a good drive.
I remember those days. I got protested at my first national tour last year at the Ft. Myers event :lol:
I think either the rule needs to be changed or a 03 fastrack put out that says "all the cats can be replaced with 1". That is what the rule is supposed to be.
As far as the ECUTEK goes, thats a WHOLE nother story. IMHO they are not legal to the letter of the rule, but I guess that will be 100% determined if/when there is a protest against one.
-Tom
I remember those days. I got protested at my first national tour last year at the Ft. Myers event :lol:
I think either the rule needs to be changed or a 03 fastrack put out that says "all the cats can be replaced with 1". That is what the rule is supposed to be.
As far as the ECUTEK goes, thats a WHOLE nother story. IMHO they are not legal to the letter of the rule, but I guess that will be 100% determined if/when there is a protest against one.
-Tom
| zoomfactor | 02-24-2003 06:19 PM |
Michael -- How about that roller skate that Mike King drives!:devil:
| angryfist | 03-01-2003 12:42 AM |
so is the final word on this issue that the primary cat is the one in the downpipe? or is this ruling still up in the air??
| KC | 03-01-2003 08:42 AM |
I haven't heard anything back from SCCA yet.
I've also referred it to someone on the SEB.
--kC
[URL=http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar]#66 STX[/URL] - Sponsored by: [URL=http://www.subaruwrxparts.com]SubaruWRXParts[/URL] & [URL=http://www.rallydecals.com]RallyDecals.com[/URL]
I've also referred it to someone on the SEB.
--kC
[URL=http://www.rallydecals.com/rallydecals/kccar]#66 STX[/URL] - Sponsored by: [URL=http://www.subaruwrxparts.com]SubaruWRXParts[/URL] & [URL=http://www.rallydecals.com]RallyDecals.com[/URL]
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