| Drew888 | 05-25-2003 12:21 AM |
New to watching Touring Car Racing, WRX dead last!
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Earlier today I was trying to watch a Canadian Touring Car Race (sorry I didn't catch the track) between accomplishing my wife's honey-do-list and noticed that the only WRX there was a white one w/a green graphic on the rear quarter and it was dead last.
An RSX won the race! Is this tipical? Why does a slower RSX, in street trim, end up winning?
Excuse the ignorance. I'm just starting to get into it. I really enjoyed the race (what I was able to see) :)
Has a WRX ever won a major event? Next time someone knows of a televised event where a WRX stands a realistic chance of being in the top 5, please post the info here.
Drew,
An RSX won the race! Is this tipical? Why does a slower RSX, in street trim, end up winning?
Excuse the ignorance. I'm just starting to get into it. I really enjoyed the race (what I was able to see) :)
Has a WRX ever won a major event? Next time someone knows of a televised event where a WRX stands a realistic chance of being in the top 5, please post the info here.
Drew,
| rkkwan | 05-25-2003 12:41 AM |
I didn't watch the show, as I don't have Speed TV now, but what you were watching is the Speed Touring Car championship (aka Speed World Challenge). Today, they showed the races at Mosport, outside Toronto.
First, the Subaru entered uses a N/A engine, not the Turbo, and it's new to the game. Second, the Real Time Acura team, which switched from the Integra to the RSX this year, had been winning the championship for a long time, under Peter Cunningham.
If you check out the June issue of Car and Driver, they have a decent article about this class, with the top teams depicted (which doesn't include the Subaru).
There's a competing Touring Car championship, called USTCC. Gary Sheehan had been running a WRX there, and had won plenty of races. I believed he came in second in the championship last year. He posted all of his races on this board.
-Ray
First, the Subaru entered uses a N/A engine, not the Turbo, and it's new to the game. Second, the Real Time Acura team, which switched from the Integra to the RSX this year, had been winning the championship for a long time, under Peter Cunningham.
If you check out the June issue of Car and Driver, they have a decent article about this class, with the top teams depicted (which doesn't include the Subaru).
There's a competing Touring Car championship, called USTCC. Gary Sheehan had been running a WRX there, and had won plenty of races. I believed he came in second in the championship last year. He posted all of his races on this board.
-Ray
| Drew888 | 05-25-2003 12:55 AM |
I really appreciate the education! You are right is was Mosport.
Would you know if the team using the N/A WRX would consider the turbo or are they not allowed (turbo that is)? ...bummer.
Are Gary's races televised? Better yet does anyone have a link to any video showing any of these wins.
With WRX's not doing as well as I'd like in WRC, seeing one get beat badly, at Mosport, was a bit discouraging.
Thanks again!
Drew
Would you know if the team using the N/A WRX would consider the turbo or are they not allowed (turbo that is)? ...bummer.
Are Gary's races televised? Better yet does anyone have a link to any video showing any of these wins.
With WRX's not doing as well as I'd like in WRC, seeing one get beat badly, at Mosport, was a bit discouraging.
Thanks again!
Drew
| rkkwan | 05-25-2003 01:07 AM |
The turbo is not allowed. There's also the GT class which has cars like NSXes, Audi RS6s, etc.
But that's a mute point. The idea of the Speed World Challenge is to get parity in the cars, so that a Mazda Protege can compete with BMWs and Lexus ISes. The rules are set up so that no one car can run away. If they allow a turbo in the Subaru, they'll find other ways to slow down the car.
You can actually find some of the best door to door racing on TV in this series, anywhere in the world. [My other favorite: BTCC.]
My suggestion to you: Don't worry too much about what cars are there, but watch the driving.
And to answer your other question, no USTCC is not televised. It's competing with the Speed Challenge, so don't expect to find it on Speed.
-Ray
But that's a mute point. The idea of the Speed World Challenge is to get parity in the cars, so that a Mazda Protege can compete with BMWs and Lexus ISes. The rules are set up so that no one car can run away. If they allow a turbo in the Subaru, they'll find other ways to slow down the car.
You can actually find some of the best door to door racing on TV in this series, anywhere in the world. [My other favorite: BTCC.]
My suggestion to you: Don't worry too much about what cars are there, but watch the driving.
And to answer your other question, no USTCC is not televised. It's competing with the Speed Challenge, so don't expect to find it on Speed.
-Ray
| dorikin | 05-25-2003 08:05 AM |
the cusco/advan impreza has been getting spanked in the jgtc as well. last year they were pretty consistent with podium finishes in-class but they've finished near dead last the first two rounds of this season :rolleyes:
[img]http://www.cusco.co.jp/03media/gttop_2_2a.gif[/img]
[img]http://www.cusco.co.jp/03media/gttop_2_2a.gif[/img]
| HoRo1 | 05-25-2003 09:13 AM |
Addition to all the other comments on the Subaru's performance. The Subaru team has, compared to many of its competitors, little to no history of racing at this level, so it is still learning about the car (and maybe the tracks), and they may well have a much smaller budget. Real Time Racing (one of the the better teams), has big bucks. There are various levels of factory support as well. It costs many $ for a season - I suspect that the better teams budget runs well over $1m.
Edit: STi is eligible in GT class where it would run up against Audi RS-6 (4.2 V8 twin turbo!!!). So, when Audi gets that car sorted - watch out. Their web site says 495 horses, but I suspect a little more might be available.
Edit: STi is eligible in GT class where it would run up against Audi RS-6 (4.2 V8 twin turbo!!!). So, when Audi gets that car sorted - watch out. Their web site says 495 horses, but I suspect a little more might be available.
| Kitsune | 05-25-2003 11:13 AM |
Turbos not allowed in Touring Car? I thought the Audi's where using Turbos, and that was the cause of all that black smoke pouring out of the cars at the start of each race.
| Kitsune | 05-25-2003 11:16 AM |
whoops, Audi's are GT class not Touring.
| enduroshark | 05-25-2003 01:11 PM |
The Audis being run in Touring (A4) have the 6cyl, N/A motors.
Irish Mike's team is blazing new trail in the World Challenge with their Subarus. It will take a while to sort out these new cars in such a competitive series, but it can be done.
When the Proteges started a few years ago they went through the same deal and the teams running them have official support from Mazda!
I am very excited about seeing the Imprezas in World Challenge. I sure wish the best to Irish Mike as well as to Gary Sheehan in the USTCC. I wish they would show those races on TV as well.
Irish Mike's team is blazing new trail in the World Challenge with their Subarus. It will take a while to sort out these new cars in such a competitive series, but it can be done.
When the Proteges started a few years ago they went through the same deal and the teams running them have official support from Mazda!
I am very excited about seeing the Imprezas in World Challenge. I sure wish the best to Irish Mike as well as to Gary Sheehan in the USTCC. I wish they would show those races on TV as well.
| DILLIGAF Racing | 05-25-2003 10:18 PM |
They are trying to make small displacement turbos legal in TC, like the VW 1.8t. I could see it happening, but with major restrictions on the car. I was at a BMW CCA Event this weekend at Mid Ohio, and the TC Kline BMW touring car was up there, it was breathe taking. We build race cars, and I could only aspire to be able to build something of that calibur. I briefly scanned through that article with the touring car teams, and if you looked at it, the Real Time Integra Type R cost over $150,000 just to build it to that level, then you figure in the fact that they have spare cars too, so I would think race budget would be around $500,000 for a year. Now Real Time is now going to be racing Sentra SE-R's and 350Z's in both the series. Must be nice when Nissan hands you a car, and says here run this. So its just a matter of time until they stop running Acuras all together. I have to give Irish Mike alot of respect for getting out there and doing what he loves doing. Finishing last isn't bad. He could have broken or something (I didn't see the race). Give him a year or 2 in the car. If he sticks with it, he will be doing better and better.
| Ryan24 | 05-26-2003 01:11 AM |
I think Mike DNF'd at Mosport but his other car that was entered did climb up after starting second to last (in front of Mike)
I did see the times they were running for pole and the Acura's and BMW's were running around 95 MPH while the Impreza's were running around 87 MPH
I'm not sure how well his other car finished, but hey at least they are out there racing
I did see the times they were running for pole and the Acura's and BMW's were running around 95 MPH while the Impreza's were running around 87 MPH
I'm not sure how well his other car finished, but hey at least they are out there racing
| Burnout | 05-26-2003 01:17 AM |
can we say 2.5RS
| JMU R1 | 05-26-2003 02:15 PM |
Quite frankly I don't think Irish Mike's did enough development on their cars before the season started to be competitive this year. At Sebring they were waaaayyyy off pace to the tune of about 13 seconds off the pole. They also had a few engine problems I believe (could've been what caused them to be slow).
I think maybe what they were doing is just trying to get out and race and get some sponsorship and development in during the year. Still, for my money I would've done all the testing I could in the offseason to make sure we'd be somewhat competitive during the season. Showing up, being slow, then saying "If you give us $$$ we'll be competitive" is a tough sell. However if you show you can hang mid pack or so then maybe joo can get the money.
For touring the 2.5RS has some stiff competition to contend with. Luckily SCCA Pro is not averse to giving competition adjustments so maybe'll they'll give the EJ25 some cams and compression so they can get up to around the 250+ hp they'll need to compete. Variety is always better for the series so maybe it'll happen sometime this season when they make competition adjustments.
I think maybe what they were doing is just trying to get out and race and get some sponsorship and development in during the year. Still, for my money I would've done all the testing I could in the offseason to make sure we'd be somewhat competitive during the season. Showing up, being slow, then saying "If you give us $$$ we'll be competitive" is a tough sell. However if you show you can hang mid pack or so then maybe joo can get the money.
For touring the 2.5RS has some stiff competition to contend with. Luckily SCCA Pro is not averse to giving competition adjustments so maybe'll they'll give the EJ25 some cams and compression so they can get up to around the 250+ hp they'll need to compete. Variety is always better for the series so maybe it'll happen sometime this season when they make competition adjustments.
| driggity | 05-26-2003 03:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Burnout [/i]
[B]can we say 2.5RS [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, its obviously a WRX with a normally aspirated 2.5L engine and no hoodscoop ;)
[B]can we say 2.5RS [/B][/QUOTE]
Nope, its obviously a WRX with a normally aspirated 2.5L engine and no hoodscoop ;)
| CivicSiRacer | 05-27-2003 12:18 AM |
All the rules for the Speed World Challenge are written to even out the cars. I talked to PD Cunningham, Wll Turner and Zac Mazzotta couple of weekends ago about the Mazdas. They said the cars were slow for a couple of years so the allowed them to run crazy cams and other mods to boost performance. Now they're making 280hp NA, whereas the RSX is only making 250hp. Plus there are weight limits for FWD, RWD, and AWD (AWD being the heaviest). Something like FWD=2400lbs without driver, RWD is around 2500-2600lbs and AWD is 2800lbs (if I remember right).
All turboed and supercharged cars are in GT (Grand Touring) and all NA cars are in TC (Touring Car).
All turboed and supercharged cars are in GT (Grand Touring) and all NA cars are in TC (Touring Car).
| zzyzx | 05-27-2003 08:27 AM |
A lot of misinformation here. Go read the facts over at Irish Mike's website:
[url]http://www.irishmikes.com[/url]
They are doing a fair job of keeping things up to date on the website.
That said, the engine is already making 300+ HP at the crank.
And no there are not limits per drivetrain layout. It's per car:
[url]http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/bulletins/WC-TC-AppendixA2-03.pdf[/url]
For the 2.5 RS, the weight limit is 2400 lbs.
- Steve
[url]http://www.irishmikes.com[/url]
They are doing a fair job of keeping things up to date on the website.
That said, the engine is already making 300+ HP at the crank.
And no there are not limits per drivetrain layout. It's per car:
[url]http://www.speedvisionwc.com/competitors/bulletins/WC-TC-AppendixA2-03.pdf[/url]
For the 2.5 RS, the weight limit is 2400 lbs.
- Steve
| ShockWave | 05-27-2003 10:13 AM |
The Irish Mike team did conduct testing at non pro SCCA events where he dominated the field. The next step is to jump into the pro series and start swiming. With Mosport being only his second race I think he is doing fine. Even the factory team Audi's are struggling in GT as they work out the bugs. If he can stick with the series long enough, which is to say he doesn't run out of money (start supporting his sponsers!) we should see him moving up, and may even see more [B]2.5 RS's[/B] in Touring Car.
Until then, we can all cheer him on with the same words my father used to cheer me on with when I was racing! "Son, you get out of the way of faster cars as well as or better than anyone I've ever seen. Keep it up!":D
Until then, we can all cheer him on with the same words my father used to cheer me on with when I was racing! "Son, you get out of the way of faster cars as well as or better than anyone I've ever seen. Keep it up!":D
| MELBA | 05-27-2003 10:34 AM |
Go AUDI!!
| JMU R1 | 05-27-2003 01:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i][B]
That said, the engine is already making 300+ HP at the crank.
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Where does it say this on Irish Mike's website, I didn't see that. Frankly I find that hard to believe since most estimates put the more powerful cars in the series at around 280 hp. If the Scoobys had that much power I think they would've placed better.
My comment about testing was not to say they didn't test, but that they didn't test enough. Racing at SCCA club level is not a good indicator for performance. Skill and prep level vary wildly in ITS and even the best [i]legal[/i] ITS car is going to be slower than a mid pack World Challenge car. Mike's had the opportunity to test at Sebring and they had access to the lap times from last season. If it were my program I would've been aiming to get our lap times to be competitive with the previous year's times. You can pretty much count on the competition getting better over the offseason so aiming for mid pack or better (about 15th place or above) will put you around mid pack for the next season.
I guess I was just hoping to see the Subarus do really well at Sebring and was just surprised that they didn't. When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season. If Irish Mike's sticks with it and works fanatically at improving the car they might be able to be competitive by the end of the season.
That said, the engine is already making 300+ HP at the crank.
- Steve [/B][/QUOTE]
Where does it say this on Irish Mike's website, I didn't see that. Frankly I find that hard to believe since most estimates put the more powerful cars in the series at around 280 hp. If the Scoobys had that much power I think they would've placed better.
My comment about testing was not to say they didn't test, but that they didn't test enough. Racing at SCCA club level is not a good indicator for performance. Skill and prep level vary wildly in ITS and even the best [i]legal[/i] ITS car is going to be slower than a mid pack World Challenge car. Mike's had the opportunity to test at Sebring and they had access to the lap times from last season. If it were my program I would've been aiming to get our lap times to be competitive with the previous year's times. You can pretty much count on the competition getting better over the offseason so aiming for mid pack or better (about 15th place or above) will put you around mid pack for the next season.
I guess I was just hoping to see the Subarus do really well at Sebring and was just surprised that they didn't. When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season. If Irish Mike's sticks with it and works fanatically at improving the car they might be able to be competitive by the end of the season.
| elgorey | 05-27-2003 01:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JMU R1 [/i]
[B]When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season.[/B][/QUOTE]
I would like to think that, this is just a building year, but then you look at the RTR Sentra that debuted at Mosport that qualified...6th IIRC. And thats with just a month or 2 development time, a chassis no-one has raced in anything, and a rear beam axle.
I just dont think the 2.5 can be competitive in Touring without a crapload of money. Too heavy, not enough motor, and too underfunded at this point. Next year will be even tougher with the spec tire moving to an racing tire, which will diminish the (already small) advantage of AWD.
IMO, it also would have been wiser to concentrate funding on developing one car instead of splitting time and funds between 2 cars.
I sure as hell am rooting for them though :)
[B]When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season.[/B][/QUOTE]
I would like to think that, this is just a building year, but then you look at the RTR Sentra that debuted at Mosport that qualified...6th IIRC. And thats with just a month or 2 development time, a chassis no-one has raced in anything, and a rear beam axle.
I just dont think the 2.5 can be competitive in Touring without a crapload of money. Too heavy, not enough motor, and too underfunded at this point. Next year will be even tougher with the spec tire moving to an racing tire, which will diminish the (already small) advantage of AWD.
IMO, it also would have been wiser to concentrate funding on developing one car instead of splitting time and funds between 2 cars.
I sure as hell am rooting for them though :)
| zzyzx | 05-27-2003 02:36 PM |
[QUOTE]
Where does it say this on Irish Mike's website, I didn't see that.
[/quote]
It doesn't.
[quote]
...and even the best [i]legal[/i] ITS car is going to be slower than a mid pack World Challenge car.
[/quote]
What does ITS even remotely have to do with World Challenge? Are you familiar with both rulesets? I can only assume if you were then you would never compare the two in the first place...
[quote]
When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season. If Irish Mike's sticks with it and works fanatically at improving the car they might be able to be competitive by the end of the season.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
That said, if you think the RS is too heavy or doesn't have enough power then why did Irish Mike pass 8 cars on the first lap? Read the diary:
[url]http://www.irishmikes.com/mosport_diary.htm[/url]
Now, doesn't anybody think the driver has anything to do with it? Who's running the top RSX? Pierre Klenubing. Who's running that new SE-R? Peter Cunningham. Do you think the results would be the same if Peter and Pierre were the two drivers in the 2.5 RSs?
I'm sure Irish Mike and his team will start doing better. Lots of bugs to work out and even more logistical issues to work out. God knows we all want to see them do well - so wish them the best should you ever get the chance.
- Steve
Where does it say this on Irish Mike's website, I didn't see that.
[/quote]
It doesn't.
[quote]
...and even the best [i]legal[/i] ITS car is going to be slower than a mid pack World Challenge car.
[/quote]
What does ITS even remotely have to do with World Challenge? Are you familiar with both rulesets? I can only assume if you were then you would never compare the two in the first place...
[quote]
When you think about it, Realtime was developing their RSX all of last season so its not unreasonable for the riding to be rough for the Impreza's first season. If Irish Mike's sticks with it and works fanatically at improving the car they might be able to be competitive by the end of the season.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
That said, if you think the RS is too heavy or doesn't have enough power then why did Irish Mike pass 8 cars on the first lap? Read the diary:
[url]http://www.irishmikes.com/mosport_diary.htm[/url]
Now, doesn't anybody think the driver has anything to do with it? Who's running the top RSX? Pierre Klenubing. Who's running that new SE-R? Peter Cunningham. Do you think the results would be the same if Peter and Pierre were the two drivers in the 2.5 RSs?
I'm sure Irish Mike and his team will start doing better. Lots of bugs to work out and even more logistical issues to work out. God knows we all want to see them do well - so wish them the best should you ever get the chance.
- Steve
| JMU R1 | 05-27-2003 04:58 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]
What does ITS even remotely have to do with World Challenge? Are you familiar with both rulesets? I can only assume if you were then you would never compare the two in the first place...[/B][/QUOTE]
I was referring to ShockWave's post about how Mike's tested in an SCCA club racing. I know WC and ITS are very different, that's why using club racing as a testing barometer is pretty useless. "The Irish Mike team did conduct testing at non pro SCCA events where he dominated the field." Dominating an amateur field is like an NBA team dominating a college team.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]Now, doesn't anybody think the driver has anything to do with it? Who's running the top RSX? Pierre Klenubing. Who's running that new SE-R? Peter Cunningham. Do you think the results would be the same if Peter and Pierre were the two drivers in the 2.5 RSs?[/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely. But Realtime's success doesn't come on raw talent alone. They have a kickass crew and kickass development program. That's why they've been able to dominate. There are certainly drivers in WC that are as talented (Bill Auberlen for instance) but none that have a total package team like Realtime (Turner maybe).
Maybe Mike's should pay a championship winning driver to do a test in their cars to see what they can do, and maybe give him a paid ride (or maybe partially paid). That's what Turner did.
[B]
What does ITS even remotely have to do with World Challenge? Are you familiar with both rulesets? I can only assume if you were then you would never compare the two in the first place...[/B][/QUOTE]
I was referring to ShockWave's post about how Mike's tested in an SCCA club racing. I know WC and ITS are very different, that's why using club racing as a testing barometer is pretty useless. "The Irish Mike team did conduct testing at non pro SCCA events where he dominated the field." Dominating an amateur field is like an NBA team dominating a college team.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by zzyzx [/i]
[B]Now, doesn't anybody think the driver has anything to do with it? Who's running the top RSX? Pierre Klenubing. Who's running that new SE-R? Peter Cunningham. Do you think the results would be the same if Peter and Pierre were the two drivers in the 2.5 RSs?[/B][/QUOTE]
Absolutely. But Realtime's success doesn't come on raw talent alone. They have a kickass crew and kickass development program. That's why they've been able to dominate. There are certainly drivers in WC that are as talented (Bill Auberlen for instance) but none that have a total package team like Realtime (Turner maybe).
Maybe Mike's should pay a championship winning driver to do a test in their cars to see what they can do, and maybe give him a paid ride (or maybe partially paid). That's what Turner did.
| Adrian128 | 05-28-2003 10:20 AM |
If you want to see almost showroom stock WRXs (STis mainly) racing with EVOs, S15s, 350Zs etc, then you should watch the Aussie GT Performance race series. I think your Speed Channel has North American Broadcast rights. If not.. you guys should tell them to get it. It's a very entertaining series, with good close racing. The best thing about it is that the cars look very much like the ones that you can drive on the roads. :)
[URL=http://www.procar.com.au/]Procar Australia[/URL]
[URL=http://www.procar.com.au/]Procar Australia[/URL]
| zoomfactor | 05-28-2003 10:26 AM |
I just checked it out -- nice wallpaper. Here's a small one. Number 60, Boatright, is leading in the points according to their website.
[IMG]http://www.procar.com.au/wallpapers/03_pcs1_gtp_protechnica_800.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.procar.com.au/wallpapers/03_pcs1_gtp_protechnica_800.jpg[/IMG]
| ShockWave | 05-28-2003 11:54 AM |
STi, brought to you by Donut King.
Mmmm...STi donuts.
[QUOTE]I would like to think that, this is just a building year, but then you look at the RTR Sentra that debuted at Mosport that qualified...6th IIRC[/QUOTE]
Had they stopped waving the green flag before the Nissan pulled off?;) But you make a good point that this factory backed Nissan will be up to speed very quickly while Irish Mike (hopefully) moves slowly up the field. That's the power of factory resources, and that does include testing.
However, you can test for a whole season and still not come up with a winning team. As an example I would cite the Toyota F1 team. They tested for an entire season before joining F1 and have pretty much nothing to show for it. They will, but it underscores that at some point you just have to jump in and give it a shot. Things will break in race conditions that you never had problems with in testing. And traffic can change everything. There's even something to be said for learning the quirks of the other drivers so you know how to tackle each one.
You all make good points but in the end, Mike's racing a Subie on SpeedTV and I'm not and that makes me very envious!
p.s.
JMU R1, to think, a [I]legal[/I] IT car. :lol: You crack me up!
Mmmm...STi donuts.
[QUOTE]I would like to think that, this is just a building year, but then you look at the RTR Sentra that debuted at Mosport that qualified...6th IIRC[/QUOTE]
Had they stopped waving the green flag before the Nissan pulled off?;) But you make a good point that this factory backed Nissan will be up to speed very quickly while Irish Mike (hopefully) moves slowly up the field. That's the power of factory resources, and that does include testing.
However, you can test for a whole season and still not come up with a winning team. As an example I would cite the Toyota F1 team. They tested for an entire season before joining F1 and have pretty much nothing to show for it. They will, but it underscores that at some point you just have to jump in and give it a shot. Things will break in race conditions that you never had problems with in testing. And traffic can change everything. There's even something to be said for learning the quirks of the other drivers so you know how to tackle each one.
You all make good points but in the end, Mike's racing a Subie on SpeedTV and I'm not and that makes me very envious!
p.s.
JMU R1, to think, a [I]legal[/I] IT car. :lol: You crack me up!
| JMU R1 | 05-29-2003 02:21 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ShockWave [/i]
[B]STi, brought to you by Donut King.
JMU R1, to think, a [I]legal[/I] IT car. :lol: You crack me up! [/B][/QUOTE]
You know what they say about those IT guys, cheaters and losers ;)
IT = Illegal Technology
[B]STi, brought to you by Donut King.
JMU R1, to think, a [I]legal[/I] IT car. :lol: You crack me up! [/B][/QUOTE]
You know what they say about those IT guys, cheaters and losers ;)
IT = Illegal Technology
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