| kurtfriedrich | 03-17-2004 01:41 AM |
Avoiding turbo lag in SoloII with WRX
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For my 4th autocross, 1st with Kumo R tires, in D stock with my 04 wagon, out of about 7 people, I came in third, 1/10th of a second behind anotehr WRX wagon, and about 2 sec's off of an Acura R. Not great, but not terrible. However I was really getting tired of the turbo-lag, so at my 5th race, Sunday before last here in WA, I decided to try left foot braking, hoping to keep the throttle open a little, and also to make it easy to get on the throttle early, while still braking. Great strategy, but I came in last of about 12 folks. Next time, I think I will give up on the idea of trying to keep a little gas on always to keep the turbo up a little, and just concetrate on getting better at left foot braking and nailing the gas very early to give the turbo a head start. Anyone else out there doing anything weird to get past turbo lag?
:huh:
:huh:
| KC | 03-17-2004 08:05 AM |
Try a shorter line. ;)
Dealing with the lag takes some practice. The 1st is brake as late as possible. The 2nd is rotation to get the shortest line possible. The faster you rotate, the longer time you'll have in a straight line and boost can come on just a tad earlier.
Most courses, don't make the mistake of downshifting to 1st. Just leave it in 2nd. It sucks, but that's all you can do.
Also, getting on the gas a little earlier than you think you can helps too. Instead of waiting for your apex if you're off boost on a sweeper, hit the gas about 1/4 way around the turn, this way, about 1/2 way around, the boost will be spooling for takeoff after the apex. :)
--kC
Dealing with the lag takes some practice. The 1st is brake as late as possible. The 2nd is rotation to get the shortest line possible. The faster you rotate, the longer time you'll have in a straight line and boost can come on just a tad earlier.
Most courses, don't make the mistake of downshifting to 1st. Just leave it in 2nd. It sucks, but that's all you can do.
Also, getting on the gas a little earlier than you think you can helps too. Instead of waiting for your apex if you're off boost on a sweeper, hit the gas about 1/4 way around the turn, this way, about 1/2 way around, the boost will be spooling for takeoff after the apex. :)
--kC
| trojan9x | 03-17-2004 09:00 AM |
Don't listen to KC, he has no idea what he's talking about
:lol:
:lol:
| KC | 03-17-2004 09:31 AM |
I cannot tell a lie. It's St. Patricks Day.
| MrBaggio | 03-17-2004 02:14 PM |
Is it worth it to slip the clutch a little while exiting a corner (still in 2nd) just to get the rpms up a little and get the turbo rolling?
Is this better than just flooring it while bogging down in a tight corner?
I havn't had a chance to test it, as I just came up with the idea, but is this something you guys think work work?
- Justin
Is this better than just flooring it while bogging down in a tight corner?
I havn't had a chance to test it, as I just came up with the idea, but is this something you guys think work work?
- Justin
| thechickencow | 03-17-2004 02:39 PM |
I'd concentrate on two things:
1: Correct apexes and driving the right line.
B: Getting on the gas as soon as humanly possible in EVERY turn. KC's 1/4 of the way through the turn thing is pretty accurate.
1: Correct apexes and driving the right line.
B: Getting on the gas as soon as humanly possible in EVERY turn. KC's 1/4 of the way through the turn thing is pretty accurate.
| Dussander | 03-17-2004 02:57 PM |
Never lift! Sorry, I'm bored at work. Try driving around with only 19ft.lbs of torque. :D Oh, wait, I can use all 6 gears. :cool:
| ElGranBan� | 03-17-2004 03:15 PM |
I got 215/45 instead of 215/50 series tires for a smaller outer diameter. I feel like it helps with the lag.
| ANZAC_1915 | 03-17-2004 03:26 PM |
It is not very sympathetic to the clutch, but if you know you have a corner coming that is just too fast for 1st, but off boost for 2nd you can also briefly press the clutch in (with foot on gas at same time) to let the engine rev and spool the turbo a bit.
I used to do this in my XR4Ti as well.
I used to do this in my XR4Ti as well.
| ITWRX4ME | 03-17-2004 03:28 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MrBaggio[/i]
[B] Is it worth it to slip the clutch a little while exiting a corner (still in 2nd) just to get the rpms up a little and get the turbo rolling?
Is this better than just flooring it while bogging down in a tight corner?
I havn't had a chance to test it, as I just came up with the idea, but is this something you guys think work work?
- Justin [/B][/QUOTE]
It will work to some extent, at the cost of clutch wear. How much, I don't know.
I hate to even mention this, since you're in D Stock, but after I had my UTEC tuned I get full boost earlier and quicker, the clutch jab now makes a really big difference.
[B] Is it worth it to slip the clutch a little while exiting a corner (still in 2nd) just to get the rpms up a little and get the turbo rolling?
Is this better than just flooring it while bogging down in a tight corner?
I havn't had a chance to test it, as I just came up with the idea, but is this something you guys think work work?
- Justin [/B][/QUOTE]
It will work to some extent, at the cost of clutch wear. How much, I don't know.
I hate to even mention this, since you're in D Stock, but after I had my UTEC tuned I get full boost earlier and quicker, the clutch jab now makes a really big difference.
| Saunders | 03-17-2004 03:53 PM |
Re: Avoiding turbo lag in SoloII with WRX
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kurtfriedrich [/i]
[B]For my 4th autocross, 1st with Kumo R tires, in D stock with my 04 wagon, [/B][/QUOTE]
You ran in a Stock class with R Type tires?
Saunders
[B]For my 4th autocross, 1st with Kumo R tires, in D stock with my 04 wagon, [/B][/QUOTE]
You ran in a Stock class with R Type tires?
Saunders
| KC | 03-17-2004 04:04 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Saunders[/i]
[B] You ran in a Stock class with R Type tires?
Saunders [/B][/QUOTE]
All stock classes are allowed R-Compounds. The only SCCA classes where R-Compounds are not allowed are STS, STX, ST2 and STU. (Regional chapters may provide their own classing YMMV)
--KC
[B] You ran in a Stock class with R Type tires?
Saunders [/B][/QUOTE]
All stock classes are allowed R-Compounds. The only SCCA classes where R-Compounds are not allowed are STS, STX, ST2 and STU. (Regional chapters may provide their own classing YMMV)
--KC
| Kostamojen | 03-17-2004 05:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]It is not very sympathetic to the clutch, but if you know you have a corner coming that is just too fast for 1st, but off boost for 2nd you can also briefly press the clutch in (with foot on gas at same time) to let the engine rev and spool the turbo a bit.
[/B][/QUOTE]
[B]It is not very sympathetic to the clutch, but if you know you have a corner coming that is just too fast for 1st, but off boost for 2nd you can also briefly press the clutch in (with foot on gas at same time) to let the engine rev and spool the turbo a bit.
[/B][/QUOTE]
| EHobron | 03-17-2004 10:02 PM |
Left foot braking will help to maintain boost pressure and pivot the car around acute corners.
| trhoppe | 03-18-2004 11:18 AM |
[quote]Left foot braking will help to maintain boost pressure and pivot the car around acute corners.[/quote]
That is a HARD skill to master with the WRX because of the vacuum assisted brakes. The brakes will go out if you are LFBing it on boost.
Best idea IMHO is to get on the gas earlier then you think you should.
-Tom
That is a HARD skill to master with the WRX because of the vacuum assisted brakes. The brakes will go out if you are LFBing it on boost.
Best idea IMHO is to get on the gas earlier then you think you should.
-Tom
| ChrisW | 03-19-2004 10:38 AM |
going on what others have said, you need to time the turbo lag to the apex, not the throttle.
IMHO, that clutch trick is a very bad idea... If you find yourself doing that in a particular corner, then you have take too tight of a line through the corner and you should take a wider line and carry a little more momentum through the corner.
I agree with Tom, LFB is a hard skill to master. It's also the best way to deal with your problem.
IMHO, that clutch trick is a very bad idea... If you find yourself doing that in a particular corner, then you have take too tight of a line through the corner and you should take a wider line and carry a little more momentum through the corner.
I agree with Tom, LFB is a hard skill to master. It's also the best way to deal with your problem.
| jmott | 03-19-2004 11:28 AM |
unbolt your muffler
| elgorey | 03-19-2004 11:45 AM |
Re: Avoiding turbo lag in SoloII with WRX
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kurtfriedrich [/i]
[B]nailing the gas very early to give the turbo a head start. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
This is all you need.
LFB can be advantageous in a few situations, but often times it just ends up slowing you down.
Get on the gas early and hard. really early. As soon as you are off the brakes.
[B]nailing the gas very early to give the turbo a head start. [/B]
[/QUOTE]
This is all you need.
LFB can be advantageous in a few situations, but often times it just ends up slowing you down.
Get on the gas early and hard. really early. As soon as you are off the brakes.
| Dussander | 03-19-2004 01:29 PM |
[QUOTE]LFB can be advantageous in a few situations, but often times it just ends up slowing you down.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with this. Using your left foot instead of your right foot has no inherent draw back until you need to use the clutch. The problem for most people is that learning to LFB is a huge hump to overcome and most people do not like taking a step backwards. I consider it to be like using two hands on the steering wheel instead of just one. A guy using just one hand can be as good, but I'd rather use both my hands and thus why I use both feet.
I disagree with this. Using your left foot instead of your right foot has no inherent draw back until you need to use the clutch. The problem for most people is that learning to LFB is a huge hump to overcome and most people do not like taking a step backwards. I consider it to be like using two hands on the steering wheel instead of just one. A guy using just one hand can be as good, but I'd rather use both my hands and thus why I use both feet.
| DrBiggly | 03-19-2004 01:59 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Dussander[/i]
[B] I disagree with this. Using your left foot instead of your right foot has no inherent draw back until you need to use the clutch. The problem for most people is that learning to LFB is a huge hump to overcome and most people do not like taking a step backwards. I consider it to be like using two hands on the steering wheel instead of just one. A guy using just one hand can be as good, but I'd rather use both my hands and thus why I use both feet. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. When I was learning to LFB it was not a terribly successful endeavor, however for the turns that I DID get it right, the feeling alone was worth the sacrifice in time on the rest of the course. Once you are able to get the feeling for modulating the brake pedal with your left foot it's a wonderful thing. Now I can transition from braking to gas without shifting the weight my vehicle around quite so badly, and if I get out of whack corrections are even easier; just a light bit with the left foot and I don't have to come off of the gas to do it; less time is lost and grip is maintained.
[B] I disagree with this. Using your left foot instead of your right foot has no inherent draw back until you need to use the clutch. The problem for most people is that learning to LFB is a huge hump to overcome and most people do not like taking a step backwards. I consider it to be like using two hands on the steering wheel instead of just one. A guy using just one hand can be as good, but I'd rather use both my hands and thus why I use both feet. [/B][/QUOTE]
I agree. When I was learning to LFB it was not a terribly successful endeavor, however for the turns that I DID get it right, the feeling alone was worth the sacrifice in time on the rest of the course. Once you are able to get the feeling for modulating the brake pedal with your left foot it's a wonderful thing. Now I can transition from braking to gas without shifting the weight my vehicle around quite so badly, and if I get out of whack corrections are even easier; just a light bit with the left foot and I don't have to come off of the gas to do it; less time is lost and grip is maintained.
| jandro62 | 03-20-2004 11:17 AM |
Brake hard, but not to where you feel comfortable, let momentum carry you into the corner (feels like you're still travelling a bit too fast) and then back on the gas.
| bezerk | 03-20-2004 02:29 PM |
I was so mad at the turbo lag in my '02 WRX that I did what I had to at the time, I bought an STi!!! no lag now!
| EHobron | 03-20-2004 05:06 PM |
FWIW, I learned and refined LFB in typical NYC traffic. Even practicing in regular to moderate traffic will help you to get the proper "feel" with your left foot as well as "rolling" both feet on your heels to deal with the clutch. Wear your driving shoes during your commute!
After that balancing the car is about the same as RFB.
Eric
After that balancing the car is about the same as RFB.
Eric
| deft | 03-20-2004 11:36 PM |
That's a great idea Ehobron. I'll try that next time I'm in stop and go. I know whenever I've tried to use my left foot, it's like "Oh I'm only pressing the pedal lightly" and then I fling myself because my left foot has absolutely no feel.
| Jaxx | 03-21-2004 07:46 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by MrBaggio[/i]
[B] Is it worth it to slip the clutch a little while exiting a corner (still in 2nd) just to get the rpms up a little and get the turbo rolling?
[/B][/QUOTE]
what he said
[B] Is it worth it to slip the clutch a little while exiting a corner (still in 2nd) just to get the rpms up a little and get the turbo rolling?
[/B][/QUOTE]
what he said
| EHobron | 03-21-2004 09:23 PM |
Shifting in the middle of a corner is generally a bad idea since you are trying to balance the car on the edge.
Slipping the clutch would probably upset that balance because the power input is unpredictable.
I would think getting on the power sooner would be more effective while LFB is still my preference. The power is "waiting" for you to lift off the brake.
Slipping the clutch would probably upset that balance because the power input is unpredictable.
I would think getting on the power sooner would be more effective while LFB is still my preference. The power is "waiting" for you to lift off the brake.
| Templar | 03-21-2004 09:49 PM |
I am going to have to go with Tom on this one (wow, there is a first time for everything :lol: ). Just get on the gas sooner than you would if there were no lag.
I CAN left foot brake, and actually do so very competently, but I find it of very little use on an autocross course. I also find that my left leg either gets contorted very strangely, or hits against the steering column. I am not overly tall (6 ft even), but I guess people shorter than me (no insults intended) might not have as much of a problem with that as someone my size or larger would have.
I CAN left foot brake, and actually do so very competently, but I find it of very little use on an autocross course. I also find that my left leg either gets contorted very strangely, or hits against the steering column. I am not overly tall (6 ft even), but I guess people shorter than me (no insults intended) might not have as much of a problem with that as someone my size or larger would have.
| Davenow | 03-22-2004 08:39 AM |
Port and polish your exh housing.
I know you cant touch the boost settings, but I dont see anything about polishing the interior passages of the exh manifolds and exh housing.... We have datalogged and tested it on an otherwise stock car, boost came on 400rpm sooner, and driveability was greatly improved. And I know just the guy to do to it for ya :) (no, not me)
I know you cant touch the boost settings, but I dont see anything about polishing the interior passages of the exh manifolds and exh housing.... We have datalogged and tested it on an otherwise stock car, boost came on 400rpm sooner, and driveability was greatly improved. And I know just the guy to do to it for ya :) (no, not me)
| KC | 03-22-2004 08:50 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Davenow[/i]
[B] Port and polish your exh housing.
I know you cant touch the boost settings, but I dont see anything about polishing the interior passages of the exh manifolds and exh housing.... We have datalogged and tested it on an otherwise stock car, boost came on 400rpm sooner, and driveability was greatly improved. And I know just the guy to do to it for ya :) (no, not me) [/B][/QUOTE]
No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC
[B] Port and polish your exh housing.
I know you cant touch the boost settings, but I dont see anything about polishing the interior passages of the exh manifolds and exh housing.... We have datalogged and tested it on an otherwise stock car, boost came on 400rpm sooner, and driveability was greatly improved. And I know just the guy to do to it for ya :) (no, not me) [/B][/QUOTE]
No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC
| DrBiggly | 03-22-2004 09:55 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC[/i]
[B] No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
[B] No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
| Davenow | 03-22-2004 04:32 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Bah!
However, and I dont even feel great posting this as I dont want to give him any ideas (too late I guess)
There is NO way they would know he has it done. Its 100% internal, and even if thye pulled the turbo, it would be covered in exh soot, and doesnt look very different from a non ported unit.
In other words it would be an almost impossible to prove/detect cheat.
Yet another reason I run SM, I can do pretty much whatever I want :)
[B]No can do for stock or street classes. "If it doesn't say you can, then you can't."
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Bah!
However, and I dont even feel great posting this as I dont want to give him any ideas (too late I guess)
There is NO way they would know he has it done. Its 100% internal, and even if thye pulled the turbo, it would be covered in exh soot, and doesnt look very different from a non ported unit.
In other words it would be an almost impossible to prove/detect cheat.
Yet another reason I run SM, I can do pretty much whatever I want :)
| trhoppe | 03-22-2004 05:28 PM |
Unless he was winning at nationals, and then I would kindly ask him to let us deltadash his car. Then if he refused......protest.
If he did and it showed him spooling 400rpms faster then us.....protest ;)
Don't cheat, its not worth it for wood.
-Tom
If he did and it showed him spooling 400rpms faster then us.....protest ;)
Don't cheat, its not worth it for wood.
-Tom
| kwh29 | 03-22-2004 11:26 PM |
Please don't cheat. :mad: It turns a well-earned reward into something meaningless. Your ego might be polished for a few days/weeks but the nagging suspicion that the trophy wasn't from your skill but rather from your cheat will be there forever. Not very fulfilling, no?
On the original subject:
I agree 100% with KC and Tom (yikes!) here. Just get on the gas earlier. It took me several events to adjust to the turbo lag but now can anticipate it in almost all paved situations. It's still fairly difficult for me to smoothly handle the boost on dirt.
As a learning point, try going too far in this direction then working backwards. For example, enter a boggy 180 sweeper and be full throttle just after entry. It'll be too much gas too soon but then you'll be able to back off and discover the beauty of variable lag...
--Kevin H.
On the original subject:
I agree 100% with KC and Tom (yikes!) here. Just get on the gas earlier. It took me several events to adjust to the turbo lag but now can anticipate it in almost all paved situations. It's still fairly difficult for me to smoothly handle the boost on dirt.
As a learning point, try going too far in this direction then working backwards. For example, enter a boggy 180 sweeper and be full throttle just after entry. It'll be too much gas too soon but then you'll be able to back off and discover the beauty of variable lag...
--Kevin H.
| trhoppe | 03-22-2004 11:47 PM |
Jeez, why does everyone find it so *odd* that they agree with me?? :confused: :p
-Tom
-Tom
| sdecker | 03-23-2004 07:33 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by kwh29 [/i]
[B]As a learning point, try going too far in this direction then working backwards. For example, enter a boggy 180 sweeper and be full throttle just after entry. It'll be too much gas too soon but then you'll be able to back off and discover the beauty of variable lag...
--Kevin H. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm really glad this thread is here because I was going to ask the same question. ;)
At my first autox a week or so ago, there was a very tight 180 degree 'turnaround' section that was too tight for second. I tried the widest possible line, the shortest possible line (all inside), and the road race line...none of which worked. Unfortunately, an incident earlier in the day took out our fourth run.
I know that this will be a common thing in the region so I'm going to have to address it.
'...the beauty of variable lag...'
:lol: :lol:
[B]As a learning point, try going too far in this direction then working backwards. For example, enter a boggy 180 sweeper and be full throttle just after entry. It'll be too much gas too soon but then you'll be able to back off and discover the beauty of variable lag...
--Kevin H. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm really glad this thread is here because I was going to ask the same question. ;)
At my first autox a week or so ago, there was a very tight 180 degree 'turnaround' section that was too tight for second. I tried the widest possible line, the shortest possible line (all inside), and the road race line...none of which worked. Unfortunately, an incident earlier in the day took out our fourth run.
I know that this will be a common thing in the region so I'm going to have to address it.
'...the beauty of variable lag...'
:lol: :lol:
| Davenow | 03-23-2004 09:40 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by trhoppe [/i]
[B]Jeez, why does everyone find it so *odd* that they agree with me?? :confused: :p
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
BTW I wasnt SUGGESTING he do that P&P
If anything I think he should mod his car to where he is happy with it, then run in whatever class it falls in.
There is no question to which is more fun to drive, a D stock car or SM car...
[B]Jeez, why does everyone find it so *odd* that they agree with me?? :confused: :p
-Tom [/B][/QUOTE]
BTW I wasnt SUGGESTING he do that P&P
If anything I think he should mod his car to where he is happy with it, then run in whatever class it falls in.
There is no question to which is more fun to drive, a D stock car or SM car...
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