| Orion | 09-17-2002 12:01 PM |
How much longer will CART survive?
The latest news pretty much seems to seal CART's fate...
[url]http://espn.go.com/rpm/irl/2002/0917/1432894.html[/url]
Andretti, Kanaan, and Franchitti move to IRL.
[url]http://espn.go.com/rpm/irl/2002/0917/1432894.html[/url]
Andretti, Kanaan, and Franchitti move to IRL.
| LordBass | 09-17-2002 12:05 PM |
... and low-tech roundey-rounders continue to win in the US. :(
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
lb
[url]www.trancelab.com[/url]
| GarySheehan | 09-17-2002 12:20 PM |
Well, what do you expect. How much did it cost the teams and CART to fly all that crap over to England to run a stupid circle track in front of 20 spectators?! Just dumb.
They are doing it to themselves.
Gary
They are doing it to themselves.
Gary
| west_aust | 09-17-2002 12:32 PM |
CART will survive for sure
they need to eliminate traitors from their ranks right now so they can build on solid foundations for the future years.
And the latest rumor is that Panther racing, Sam hornish team in IRL will move to CART next year, and de Ferran will go back to CART also.
so CART will survive, and long live to CART, and no pitty for IRL which in my opinion is one of the worst racing series in the US
they need to eliminate traitors from their ranks right now so they can build on solid foundations for the future years.
And the latest rumor is that Panther racing, Sam hornish team in IRL will move to CART next year, and de Ferran will go back to CART also.
so CART will survive, and long live to CART, and no pitty for IRL which in my opinion is one of the worst racing series in the US
| Orion | 09-17-2002 12:43 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by west_aust [/i]
[B]And the latest rumor is that Panther racing, Sam hornish team in IRL will move to CART next year, and de Ferran will go back to CART also.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really?:confused: I don't know why the most successful IRL team would leave the series with the Indy 500 before winning it. It would be career suicide for the team in a market dominated by TV sponsors.
[B]And the latest rumor is that Panther racing, Sam hornish team in IRL will move to CART next year, and de Ferran will go back to CART also.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Really?:confused: I don't know why the most successful IRL team would leave the series with the Indy 500 before winning it. It would be career suicide for the team in a market dominated by TV sponsors.
| west_aust | 09-17-2002 12:44 PM |
Why for? Cause their star driver Sam Hornish will be going to Penske to replace Gil de Ferran
| rkkwan | 09-17-2002 12:54 PM |
Agree with Gary. CART should drop all the ovals and concentrate on road courses, and [B]good[/B] street circuits in North America. There is a market for such series, I believe.
-Ray
-Ray
| west_aust | 09-17-2002 12:56 PM |
Street courses :)
They should come to Montreal more often :)
They should come to Montreal more often :)
| dahveed | 09-17-2002 01:02 PM |
That really sucks. I absolutely hate oval racing. I wish IRL and CART could merge and eliminate all oval races except the Indy 500.
The Street Grands Prix are the shizznitt!
Also, why can't we have a big, smooth track for F1 races, other than that Indy F1 "make-a-roadcourse-out-of-an-oval" crap.
:monkey: for ovals...
The Street Grands Prix are the shizznitt!
Also, why can't we have a big, smooth track for F1 races, other than that Indy F1 "make-a-roadcourse-out-of-an-oval" crap.
:monkey: for ovals...
| rkkwan | 09-17-2002 02:00 PM |
dahveed - The success of the IRL shows that there's a market decent market for open-wheeled oval racing in the US, whether you and I like it or not. In a way, that's fine. The more motorsports fans out there the better, IMHO.
But CART needs a seperate product. And the fact is that there are plenty of great road courses in the US. It probably will never be as successful as NASCAR or IRL in the overall US TV market, but it should be able to fill a niche and survive.
I wrote on this forum a few weeks ago about what I think would be a nice CART schedule:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=234730&perpage=25&highlight=CART&pagenumber=2[/url]
-Ray
P.S. I don't see a big problem with F1 running at Indy. First, Indianans are true racing fans. They will fill the stands, and Indy has the biggest stands for the most audience. Second, so many of the newer courses of the F1 circuit are too much like others - you'll not mistaken the Indy oval with any other course for sure!
But CART needs a seperate product. And the fact is that there are plenty of great road courses in the US. It probably will never be as successful as NASCAR or IRL in the overall US TV market, but it should be able to fill a niche and survive.
I wrote on this forum a few weeks ago about what I think would be a nice CART schedule:
[url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=234730&perpage=25&highlight=CART&pagenumber=2[/url]
-Ray
P.S. I don't see a big problem with F1 running at Indy. First, Indianans are true racing fans. They will fill the stands, and Indy has the biggest stands for the most audience. Second, so many of the newer courses of the F1 circuit are too much like others - you'll not mistaken the Indy oval with any other course for sure!
| shinylugnuts | 09-17-2002 02:39 PM |
CART's strength is that it races on road courses, to most observers, that's what separates it from IRL. Unfortunately, they have several things against them:
1) they pick courses like Denver and Rockingham (!?)
2) their talent pool (already pretty shallow)is being diluted by IRL (even more shallow, but getting deeper)
3) they have no "signature" race left having lost Indy - Michigan being a poor substitute
4) should IRL choose to add some road races over the next couple of years, CART is toast
5) poor TV ratings mean that only one big budget open wheel series can depend on TV revenue in the future
1) they pick courses like Denver and Rockingham (!?)
2) their talent pool (already pretty shallow)is being diluted by IRL (even more shallow, but getting deeper)
3) they have no "signature" race left having lost Indy - Michigan being a poor substitute
4) should IRL choose to add some road races over the next couple of years, CART is toast
5) poor TV ratings mean that only one big budget open wheel series can depend on TV revenue in the future
| TampaWRX | 09-17-2002 07:05 PM |
I'm not sure if you can call what IRL is experiencing "success", but they have been gaining a little strength the past couple years.
CART is not dead yet and may have done themselves the biggest favor since '96 by ceasing aero development on major components and lowering the cost of motors by going to a single powerplant. Now if they would only bring the boost back to 40psi and the horsepower back above 900 on road courses, we'd really have something to talk about.
The IRL is still a joke and is still losing money, regardless of what Tony George is saying. Brock Yates put the figure at nearly $100m/year so far. Even if the number is 2/3 of that, the IRL can't keep throwing that kind of cash in the toilet forever.
By leaving road courses behind, Franchitti has essentially tossed away most of his credibility. The man only has one oval win to his credit, after all. Kanaan was a decent talent, but certainly wasn't drawing any Americans to the TV. Michael Andretti is past his prime and like Al Unser Jr, sees a NASCAR style career on ovals as a way to extend the run. None of these guys could do much to save CART, so losing them, while painful, isn't a death blow. What CART needs is another Alex Zanardi. Can they find him? Only time will tell.
I refuse to watch the IRL, simply because ovals are for hill-billies and has-beens. The only Americans who care about oval racing are NASCAR fans and most of them hate the IRL too.
I was glad to hear that Team Penske did not take the IRL title. Hope Roger enjoyed that. ;)
CART is not dead yet and may have done themselves the biggest favor since '96 by ceasing aero development on major components and lowering the cost of motors by going to a single powerplant. Now if they would only bring the boost back to 40psi and the horsepower back above 900 on road courses, we'd really have something to talk about.
The IRL is still a joke and is still losing money, regardless of what Tony George is saying. Brock Yates put the figure at nearly $100m/year so far. Even if the number is 2/3 of that, the IRL can't keep throwing that kind of cash in the toilet forever.
By leaving road courses behind, Franchitti has essentially tossed away most of his credibility. The man only has one oval win to his credit, after all. Kanaan was a decent talent, but certainly wasn't drawing any Americans to the TV. Michael Andretti is past his prime and like Al Unser Jr, sees a NASCAR style career on ovals as a way to extend the run. None of these guys could do much to save CART, so losing them, while painful, isn't a death blow. What CART needs is another Alex Zanardi. Can they find him? Only time will tell.
I refuse to watch the IRL, simply because ovals are for hill-billies and has-beens. The only Americans who care about oval racing are NASCAR fans and most of them hate the IRL too.
I was glad to hear that Team Penske did not take the IRL title. Hope Roger enjoyed that. ;)
| MoMoFun | 09-17-2002 07:07 PM |
Call me a traitor, but I have to say I like the IRL more than CART. When Tony G. split with CART, I was one of the fans to support CART and attend the first Michigan 500 Race that ran opposite the Indy 500. However, over the years, the IRL has won my heart. Granted they only do ovals. However, if anyone watched the last two races of the year and did not become a fan, then you are probably an oval and/or Tony G. hater. Sam H. won the Chicago race over Al Jr. by only .0024 seconds and he won the Texas race over Helio C. by only .0096 seconds. To top it off, both guys were going for the championship in the final race. As a race fan, it doesn't get any better then this. I just hope IRL can keep the talent like Sam Hornish and doesn't become a training ground for other series like CART is the training ground for Formula One.
| TampaWRX | 09-17-2002 07:25 PM |
I think you can bet on Hornish heading to NASCAR at some point. That's where the big $$$ is.
For a series that was supposed to put "American drivers in open-wheel cars", the IRL sure does have a lot of foreign names on the roster.
I am an oval hater, for the most part. Open wheel cars are too fast and too agile to bother with roundy rounds. If I want to see oval racing, I prefer NASCAR.
As Jochen Rindt put it after his first and last trip to Indianapolis for the 500, "It's a good place for making money, that is all." So long as Sam Hornish Jr, or any other IRL driver for that matter, is never mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of Senna, Prost, Stewart or Clark, I'll be happy.
:monkey: Sit and spin Tony George.
For a series that was supposed to put "American drivers in open-wheel cars", the IRL sure does have a lot of foreign names on the roster.
I am an oval hater, for the most part. Open wheel cars are too fast and too agile to bother with roundy rounds. If I want to see oval racing, I prefer NASCAR.
As Jochen Rindt put it after his first and last trip to Indianapolis for the 500, "It's a good place for making money, that is all." So long as Sam Hornish Jr, or any other IRL driver for that matter, is never mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of Senna, Prost, Stewart or Clark, I'll be happy.
:monkey: Sit and spin Tony George.
| rkkwan | 09-17-2002 08:23 PM |
No matter how close the races are, I still won't watch IRl or NASCAR, because going around an oval is boring!
As to whether you can find the next Alex Zanardi - or to put it in an other way, will the next Alex Zanardi races in CART - is a big question. Despite its own problem, the best road racing talents still see Formula 1 as their ultimate goal. And any person in the world except the U.S. will go race in some kind of F3 or F3000 to achieve that goal. To attract talent in CART, it has to present itself as a place to learn the crafts. Racing on ovals do not do that!
-Ray
As to whether you can find the next Alex Zanardi - or to put it in an other way, will the next Alex Zanardi races in CART - is a big question. Despite its own problem, the best road racing talents still see Formula 1 as their ultimate goal. And any person in the world except the U.S. will go race in some kind of F3 or F3000 to achieve that goal. To attract talent in CART, it has to present itself as a place to learn the crafts. Racing on ovals do not do that!
-Ray
| GarySheehan | 09-17-2002 10:22 PM |
How can you call it driving if there is no braking or shifting and you only turn the steering wheel towards the left? Watching Oriol Servia's footbox at the Rockingham race, I saw him lift his right foot twice. That's it. Yippee.
Here's some stuff I'd like to see across all racing series:
No ovals.
Get rid of paddle shifters.
No preprogrammed electronic gearboxes.
Throw away traction control.
Keep ABS where it belongs, on street cars.
Dump mandatory pitstop windows.
Bring back full racing slicks.
Dramatically reduce downforce.
Never, ever hold another race on that crappy Denver street course.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
Here's some stuff I'd like to see across all racing series:
No ovals.
Get rid of paddle shifters.
No preprogrammed electronic gearboxes.
Throw away traction control.
Keep ABS where it belongs, on street cars.
Dump mandatory pitstop windows.
Bring back full racing slicks.
Dramatically reduce downforce.
Never, ever hold another race on that crappy Denver street course.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| OnTheGas | 09-17-2002 11:32 PM |
CART Will Survive By Being Less Expensive
A friend of mine on a private motorsports e-mail list to which I subscribe is a real CART-head. During a recent dialogue, he wrote the piece below describing the cost savings that Pook's CART is undergoing for next season, and the likely effects. Pretty interesting stuff I thought...
[quote]Just a comment about where the money is coming from for teams to run 3 or more cars next year in CART.[list=1][*]The aero freeze means that this years cars can be run and update kits will be about 100k per car. That saves a bunch of money right there.
[*]Ford is supplying all the engines, and the engine leases are through CART. The engines will be good for about 800 to 1000 miles so race engines used 1 week can be the test engine for the following week and just change the engine before the race. plus the added durability means fewer blow ups and rebuilds. I don't know the exact price on engine leases next year, but it's surely alot cheaper than the 3 million or so paid by non factory teams this year.
[*]The teams will be subsidized for running the entire season. Each car running recieves $850k if they participate in all events. $850k should just about buy a chassis and spare parts next year. For you IRL fans out there, TG has been doing this for years. Every wonder why all of the sudden cars show up for events with low car count? That's TG footing the bill. So this is nothing new.
[*]There will be 2 factory Ford teams next year(not sure if this is 2 1 car teams, 2 2 car teams or what but they wil be there). Presumably these are existing teams who will be expanding their operations.[/list]
Finally which team is adding what...
[list][*]Forsythe is going to be at least 3 and maybe 4 cars. Drivers will be Carpentier, Tagliani, Tracy and one Canadian FA driver (maybe Rutledge). He can do this because Players wants a large presence for their last year in CART and since JV turned down the offer they made him, they have the money to do this. Even if the Players money does not cover the extra cars, Forsythe is one rich guy
[*]Neman Haas Andretti Racing will have 3 cars. Look for Da Matta and Junquiera in the Newman Haas cars and Franchitti in the new car owned by Mario Andretti
[*]Rahal will be back with Jimmy and Jourdain (both confirmed already) and with sponsorship from a new to CART sponsor for an Atlantics driver. So that makes 3 cars there also.
[*]Fernandez is looking to stay with 2 cars. 1 for him, the other for another Mexican driver (probably Diaz). He's got the cars and personel already, cheap upgrade for someone to sponsor Diaz.
[*]Herdez/Bettenhausen has confirmed Dominguez will be with the team next year. They are looking at adding a second car for an American.
[*]Patrick has confirmed they will be back with at least 1 car and maybe 2 next year.
[*]Team St. George is looking to go the full season next year with 2 British drivers[/list]In addition to all of these, these folks are the questionable/possible ones...[list][*]Emmo's team(2 cars, Brazilian drivers)[*]Johanssens' team[*]2 teams from europe[*]an existing IRL team(rumors are Menard or Cheever)[*]Morello Racing(very likely to be in)[*]Arciero[*]Paul Gentilozzi Racing[*]Walker Racing[/list][/quote]Anyways I don't/can't vouch for veracity of his info, since, frankly, I'm a F1 snob. :lol: So I just don't have time to see how current this info is...
But I do like CART, and I attend the Long Beach GP each year, and appreciate it for being a good place for F1 has beens and wannabees! ;) I do hope it stays strong.
And I agree w/some of you who would prefer it be more oriented to road and street courses. I don't care for ovals at all. I think that those of you who enjoy that type of racing will get your fill w/NASCAR and IRL. Already IRL is moving into CART's circle track venues, such as Fontana, so it is just a matter of time...
[quote]Just a comment about where the money is coming from for teams to run 3 or more cars next year in CART.[list=1][*]The aero freeze means that this years cars can be run and update kits will be about 100k per car. That saves a bunch of money right there.
[*]Ford is supplying all the engines, and the engine leases are through CART. The engines will be good for about 800 to 1000 miles so race engines used 1 week can be the test engine for the following week and just change the engine before the race. plus the added durability means fewer blow ups and rebuilds. I don't know the exact price on engine leases next year, but it's surely alot cheaper than the 3 million or so paid by non factory teams this year.
[*]The teams will be subsidized for running the entire season. Each car running recieves $850k if they participate in all events. $850k should just about buy a chassis and spare parts next year. For you IRL fans out there, TG has been doing this for years. Every wonder why all of the sudden cars show up for events with low car count? That's TG footing the bill. So this is nothing new.
[*]There will be 2 factory Ford teams next year(not sure if this is 2 1 car teams, 2 2 car teams or what but they wil be there). Presumably these are existing teams who will be expanding their operations.[/list]
Finally which team is adding what...
[list][*]Forsythe is going to be at least 3 and maybe 4 cars. Drivers will be Carpentier, Tagliani, Tracy and one Canadian FA driver (maybe Rutledge). He can do this because Players wants a large presence for their last year in CART and since JV turned down the offer they made him, they have the money to do this. Even if the Players money does not cover the extra cars, Forsythe is one rich guy
[*]Neman Haas Andretti Racing will have 3 cars. Look for Da Matta and Junquiera in the Newman Haas cars and Franchitti in the new car owned by Mario Andretti
[*]Rahal will be back with Jimmy and Jourdain (both confirmed already) and with sponsorship from a new to CART sponsor for an Atlantics driver. So that makes 3 cars there also.
[*]Fernandez is looking to stay with 2 cars. 1 for him, the other for another Mexican driver (probably Diaz). He's got the cars and personel already, cheap upgrade for someone to sponsor Diaz.
[*]Herdez/Bettenhausen has confirmed Dominguez will be with the team next year. They are looking at adding a second car for an American.
[*]Patrick has confirmed they will be back with at least 1 car and maybe 2 next year.
[*]Team St. George is looking to go the full season next year with 2 British drivers[/list]In addition to all of these, these folks are the questionable/possible ones...[list][*]Emmo's team(2 cars, Brazilian drivers)[*]Johanssens' team[*]2 teams from europe[*]an existing IRL team(rumors are Menard or Cheever)[*]Morello Racing(very likely to be in)[*]Arciero[*]Paul Gentilozzi Racing[*]Walker Racing[/list][/quote]Anyways I don't/can't vouch for veracity of his info, since, frankly, I'm a F1 snob. :lol: So I just don't have time to see how current this info is...
But I do like CART, and I attend the Long Beach GP each year, and appreciate it for being a good place for F1 has beens and wannabees! ;) I do hope it stays strong.
And I agree w/some of you who would prefer it be more oriented to road and street courses. I don't care for ovals at all. I think that those of you who enjoy that type of racing will get your fill w/NASCAR and IRL. Already IRL is moving into CART's circle track venues, such as Fontana, so it is just a matter of time...
| meebs | 09-17-2002 11:48 PM |
You can't fight evolution
[quote]Get rid of paddle shifters.
No preprogrammed electronic gearboxes.
Throw away traction control.
Keep ABS where it belongs, on street cars.
Dump mandatory pitstop windows.
Bring back full racing slicks.
Dramatically reduce downforce.[/quote]
Now the ovals thing I agree with sure... but you can't stop any of the above. Motorsport is akin to an arms race. People like to say... well people like David Hobbs. :) [i]" in the good old days we didn't have sequential gearboxes, blah blah"... [/i] Ok great, but how many years did things stay the same? Even back in the good old days? I don't know, I'm not that big of a motorsport history buff, but I'd say probably zero.
No preprogrammed electronic gearboxes.
Throw away traction control.
Keep ABS where it belongs, on street cars.
Dump mandatory pitstop windows.
Bring back full racing slicks.
Dramatically reduce downforce.[/quote]
Now the ovals thing I agree with sure... but you can't stop any of the above. Motorsport is akin to an arms race. People like to say... well people like David Hobbs. :) [i]" in the good old days we didn't have sequential gearboxes, blah blah"... [/i] Ok great, but how many years did things stay the same? Even back in the good old days? I don't know, I'm not that big of a motorsport history buff, but I'd say probably zero.
| IXLR8 | 09-18-2002 10:15 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]No matter how close the races are, I still won't watch IRl or NASCAR, because going around an oval is boring!
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not and have never been an IRL fan (and I have a hard time even looking at Tony "I'm gonna take my track and go home" George),
BUT... I don't think anyone could honestly say the last Texas race was boring... for me the question is more about talent vs. balls... I just don't think these guys are that good...
One of these days the luck they enjoy going wheel to wheel (even wheel inside wheel), at 200 plus for lap after lap is going to run out and a bunch of them are going to die.
Don't want to be watching when that happens.
[B]No matter how close the races are, I still won't watch IRl or NASCAR, because going around an oval is boring!
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not and have never been an IRL fan (and I have a hard time even looking at Tony "I'm gonna take my track and go home" George),
BUT... I don't think anyone could honestly say the last Texas race was boring... for me the question is more about talent vs. balls... I just don't think these guys are that good...
One of these days the luck they enjoy going wheel to wheel (even wheel inside wheel), at 200 plus for lap after lap is going to run out and a bunch of them are going to die.
Don't want to be watching when that happens.
| GarySheehan | 09-18-2002 11:37 AM |
Meebs,
I have no problems with technological advances in the sport. That's what makes racing so exciting. But, what I do have problems with is making the skills of the driver less important due to technology.
Let me point out the differences. Let's start with "performance aids." Slick racing tires were obviously an advancement in the performance of the car. Cars started going much faster around the track. But it didn't make the drivers lives any easier. It still takes the same amount of skill, if not more skill, to drive a slick racing tire at its limits than a treaded tire. Same thing goes for more powerful engines, aerodynamics, etc. They all make the car go faster.
There is a distinction between a "performance aid" and a "driver aid." I am against using "driver aids" in racing. ABS replaces crucial threshold braking driver skills with stomping on the brakes. Traction control replaces the finesse of a driver's right foot to apply power at the limit of traction with stomping on the gas pedal. Electronic gearboxes replace the driver's art of rev matching and downshifting into the right gear while threshold braking with the push of a single button. Basically, with all of these aids, all the driver has to do is steer, and by god, we don't want him taking his hands of the steering wheel, because he's just a hack driver, so lets put paddle shifters on the wheel.
Get rid of driver aids. It doesn't matter how difficult it is to detect things like traction control. Change the rules so that it is easier to detect and get rid of it. Make the sport healthier.
How do you think football fans would behave if the engineers designed a laser guided football? I mean, the quarterback would still have to run around avoiding tackles, and still have to throw pretty hard, but his aim isn't that important any more. What would baseball fans think if the outfielders gloves had an automatic locking device so that once the ball touched the glove, there is no way for the ball to pop out.
Fans watch sports because it clearly shows the advanced skills of the people participating. Start taking the skills away or making them less important and it becomes so much less fascinating. So fans go away.
I suggested going to full slicks and less downforce to make the sport fun to watch again. F1's biggest mistake was grooved tires. F1's biggest complaint is lack of passing. Well, duh, put the grip back where it's needed, in the tires, and take the majority of the downforce away. This way drivers can run close enough to attempt to make a pass in the braking zones. The aerodynamics are so important right now that most of the time the cars can't run close enough to set up a pass. F1 sucks because of lack of passing. Imagine F1 with all of the technology and skill AND drivers actually battling into and out of the corners lap after lap. Instead of the engineers...
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
I have no problems with technological advances in the sport. That's what makes racing so exciting. But, what I do have problems with is making the skills of the driver less important due to technology.
Let me point out the differences. Let's start with "performance aids." Slick racing tires were obviously an advancement in the performance of the car. Cars started going much faster around the track. But it didn't make the drivers lives any easier. It still takes the same amount of skill, if not more skill, to drive a slick racing tire at its limits than a treaded tire. Same thing goes for more powerful engines, aerodynamics, etc. They all make the car go faster.
There is a distinction between a "performance aid" and a "driver aid." I am against using "driver aids" in racing. ABS replaces crucial threshold braking driver skills with stomping on the brakes. Traction control replaces the finesse of a driver's right foot to apply power at the limit of traction with stomping on the gas pedal. Electronic gearboxes replace the driver's art of rev matching and downshifting into the right gear while threshold braking with the push of a single button. Basically, with all of these aids, all the driver has to do is steer, and by god, we don't want him taking his hands of the steering wheel, because he's just a hack driver, so lets put paddle shifters on the wheel.
Get rid of driver aids. It doesn't matter how difficult it is to detect things like traction control. Change the rules so that it is easier to detect and get rid of it. Make the sport healthier.
How do you think football fans would behave if the engineers designed a laser guided football? I mean, the quarterback would still have to run around avoiding tackles, and still have to throw pretty hard, but his aim isn't that important any more. What would baseball fans think if the outfielders gloves had an automatic locking device so that once the ball touched the glove, there is no way for the ball to pop out.
Fans watch sports because it clearly shows the advanced skills of the people participating. Start taking the skills away or making them less important and it becomes so much less fascinating. So fans go away.
I suggested going to full slicks and less downforce to make the sport fun to watch again. F1's biggest mistake was grooved tires. F1's biggest complaint is lack of passing. Well, duh, put the grip back where it's needed, in the tires, and take the majority of the downforce away. This way drivers can run close enough to attempt to make a pass in the braking zones. The aerodynamics are so important right now that most of the time the cars can't run close enough to set up a pass. F1 sucks because of lack of passing. Imagine F1 with all of the technology and skill AND drivers actually battling into and out of the corners lap after lap. Instead of the engineers...
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Fred Zaplitny | 09-18-2002 11:48 AM |
I like oval racing. I always have. As much as I despise Tony George and the whole IRL, I've actually found myself enjoying their races the past couple of years.
What I'm seeing in the whole open wheel scene is a transformation back to the way champ cars were back in the 60's and 70's. USAC had the ovals and SCCA Formula 5000 did road courses. In 1979 CART was formed and was sort of a merger for the two series'. Now there is a new separation and CART will be the new equivalent of the old Formula 5000 and IRL is like the new USAC. It's pretty obvious, CART has lost how many ovals to the IRL over the past few years?
What I'm seeing in the whole open wheel scene is a transformation back to the way champ cars were back in the 60's and 70's. USAC had the ovals and SCCA Formula 5000 did road courses. In 1979 CART was formed and was sort of a merger for the two series'. Now there is a new separation and CART will be the new equivalent of the old Formula 5000 and IRL is like the new USAC. It's pretty obvious, CART has lost how many ovals to the IRL over the past few years?
| TampaWRX | 09-18-2002 07:22 PM |
Remember that the ovals CART lost to the IRL were actually Penske owned facilities, i.e. Fontana.
I think Gary has a valid point and it's one that has been made a BILLION frigging times. If you won't take his word for it, head over to Autosport and read through some of Nigel Roebuck's Q&A pieces. He's been watching F1 since the 50's when the racing was still an art rather than a science. He frequently derides modern F1 and what it has become.
As for being an F1 snob...any series that holds up Michael Schumacher, a man known for intentionally causing accidents and weaving, as its champion is flawed in many ways beyond just it's lack of passing.
The last great champion was Alain Prost, as he raced as a racer before being dragged into war by Senna. Senna helped bring about the acceptance of intimidation as a weapon on track AND the neutering of F1 in his life and death behind the wheel. If he hadn't weaved so much on straights and taken Prost off track at Suzuka, Herr Schumacher would never have gotten away with taking Hill out in '94 or attempting to do the same to Villeneuve in '97.
Senna's crash at Imola effectively ended an era overnight and F1's race tracks will never be the same. Technology has tamed Eau Rouge, the Lesmos are a joke, we no longer have a Malmedy or Tamburello to talk about. Hockenheim is a glorified karting track and what they call the "Nurburgring" is some kind of sick insult to every man that's ever won at the real track.
The cars are obscenely ugly, ridiculously scaled and are capable of doing 100% of the driving, were the FIA to allow automated steering, brake and throttle inputs. What exactly is there to be snobbish about? One thing, the money. All F1 has left is the money and even that is not what it used to be. TV ratings are down, race attendance is down, from what I've read even merchandising is down the past two years.
The world of open wheel racing needs CART, if for no other reason than it is NOT modern Formula One. F1 was once the place of the gods...Rosemayer, Nuvolari, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, but what it has become pales in the light of what it used to be, so don't look down on CART. The two are essentially in the same boat these days, though one is a lot closer to going under than the other. :(
I think Gary has a valid point and it's one that has been made a BILLION frigging times. If you won't take his word for it, head over to Autosport and read through some of Nigel Roebuck's Q&A pieces. He's been watching F1 since the 50's when the racing was still an art rather than a science. He frequently derides modern F1 and what it has become.
As for being an F1 snob...any series that holds up Michael Schumacher, a man known for intentionally causing accidents and weaving, as its champion is flawed in many ways beyond just it's lack of passing.
The last great champion was Alain Prost, as he raced as a racer before being dragged into war by Senna. Senna helped bring about the acceptance of intimidation as a weapon on track AND the neutering of F1 in his life and death behind the wheel. If he hadn't weaved so much on straights and taken Prost off track at Suzuka, Herr Schumacher would never have gotten away with taking Hill out in '94 or attempting to do the same to Villeneuve in '97.
Senna's crash at Imola effectively ended an era overnight and F1's race tracks will never be the same. Technology has tamed Eau Rouge, the Lesmos are a joke, we no longer have a Malmedy or Tamburello to talk about. Hockenheim is a glorified karting track and what they call the "Nurburgring" is some kind of sick insult to every man that's ever won at the real track.
The cars are obscenely ugly, ridiculously scaled and are capable of doing 100% of the driving, were the FIA to allow automated steering, brake and throttle inputs. What exactly is there to be snobbish about? One thing, the money. All F1 has left is the money and even that is not what it used to be. TV ratings are down, race attendance is down, from what I've read even merchandising is down the past two years.
The world of open wheel racing needs CART, if for no other reason than it is NOT modern Formula One. F1 was once the place of the gods...Rosemayer, Nuvolari, Fangio, Clark, Stewart, Prost, Senna, but what it has become pales in the light of what it used to be, so don't look down on CART. The two are essentially in the same boat these days, though one is a lot closer to going under than the other. :(
| Fred Zaplitny | 09-18-2002 10:48 PM |
1 Attachment(s)
Rosemayer!
One of the drivers of my favorite Grand Prix cars!
One of the drivers of my favorite Grand Prix cars!
| jds | 09-19-2002 12:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by GarySheehan [/i]
snip
[B]
Never, ever hold another race on that crappy Denver street course.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Gary:
What, specifically did you dislike about the Denver course? Yes, the drivers complained that the course was rough, but they were all driving the same course. Overall, the race was run very cleanly, except for Paul Tracy driving like an ass in the first laps.
Hey, maybe that's why Franchitti is going to IRL -- to get the hell away from that maniac teammate of his :)
-Joe
snip
[B]
Never, ever hold another race on that crappy Denver street course.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Gary:
What, specifically did you dislike about the Denver course? Yes, the drivers complained that the course was rough, but they were all driving the same course. Overall, the race was run very cleanly, except for Paul Tracy driving like an ass in the first laps.
Hey, maybe that's why Franchitti is going to IRL -- to get the hell away from that maniac teammate of his :)
-Joe
| GarySheehan | 09-19-2002 12:35 PM |
Joe,
1. It was incredibly bumpy. That's no place for a formula car. It's actually a painful experience to run at speed in a formula car on a track as bumpy as that. The bumps reduce overall grip, which makes passing riskier, and ultimately less frequent.
2. The track is too short and "mickey mouse." 1.6 miles is too short of a track for CART cars to be on. Very few opportunities for passing made for a boring race.
3. It was just plain ugly. Most of the time it looked like the cars were driving on patches laid on patches. All I could think is "look at how crappy that road is." CART can do much better than that.
So, basically a boring race on a short, ugly track where there was little opportunity for passing. I think that about sums it up for me.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
1. It was incredibly bumpy. That's no place for a formula car. It's actually a painful experience to run at speed in a formula car on a track as bumpy as that. The bumps reduce overall grip, which makes passing riskier, and ultimately less frequent.
2. The track is too short and "mickey mouse." 1.6 miles is too short of a track for CART cars to be on. Very few opportunities for passing made for a boring race.
3. It was just plain ugly. Most of the time it looked like the cars were driving on patches laid on patches. All I could think is "look at how crappy that road is." CART can do much better than that.
So, basically a boring race on a short, ugly track where there was little opportunity for passing. I think that about sums it up for me.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| TampaWRX | 09-19-2002 07:03 PM |
What little video I have seen of Grand Prix racing from that era leaves me questioning my manhood. I am simply not sure I could drive those cars on those tracks under the conditions of the day. For them, ignorance really was bliss! :D Sad how Rosemayer died. I believe the road he was trying for the record on still exists and I seem to remember reading somewhere that a memorial to him can still be found if you look hard enough in the underbrush...then again, that could all be internet mythology. ;) Either way, I love watching the video of that era that has survive the last seventy years. They really were all about the racing. Awesome stuff. :)
Tazio Nuvolari in the 1930 Mille Miglia
[IMG]http://www.motorlegend.com/new/histoire/millemiglia/photos/nuvolari.jpg[/IMG]
Tazio Nuvolari in the 1930 Mille Miglia
[IMG]http://www.motorlegend.com/new/histoire/millemiglia/photos/nuvolari.jpg[/IMG]
| Fred Zaplitny | 09-19-2002 08:43 PM |
Tampa,
Have you seen the Speedvision (Speed, whatever) documentary about the Auto Union cars? That was excellent. I've seen it a few times. I think it was on Legends Of Motorsport.
Have you seen the Speedvision (Speed, whatever) documentary about the Auto Union cars? That was excellent. I've seen it a few times. I think it was on Legends Of Motorsport.
| WHTWRX | 09-20-2002 07:10 PM |
All you whiners about ovals!! Sheesh. What makes CART so cool is that they do EVERYTHING: Ovals, Road, and Street.
F1 does road only.
IRL does oval only.
NASCAR does mainly oval, a few road courses.
They've got the most diverse schedule of any racing series. The only thing they are missing is gravel! :lol:
Chris Pook (we hear in Socal are blessed because of him!) wants to make CART an international powerhouse.
I bet he dreams of laying the foundation for de-throning F1 (the most exciting form of racing from the grid to turn one. Then you can flip to another channel). :)
Throw in a grid start for CART and I could not ask for anything else.
CART's demise? Highly unlikely. You're talking about an organization run by a man who was putting barb wire up at 2am the morning of the 1st LBGP. This guy will work his a$$ off to make something happen.
F1 does road only.
IRL does oval only.
NASCAR does mainly oval, a few road courses.
They've got the most diverse schedule of any racing series. The only thing they are missing is gravel! :lol:
Chris Pook (we hear in Socal are blessed because of him!) wants to make CART an international powerhouse.
I bet he dreams of laying the foundation for de-throning F1 (the most exciting form of racing from the grid to turn one. Then you can flip to another channel). :)
Throw in a grid start for CART and I could not ask for anything else.
CART's demise? Highly unlikely. You're talking about an organization run by a man who was putting barb wire up at 2am the morning of the 1st LBGP. This guy will work his a$$ off to make something happen.
| HoRo1 | 09-20-2002 08:17 PM |
I have to agree with WHTWRX, at least on his choice of car colour. The rest...I'm not privy to the accounts at CART and IRL, but I think that when the TV contracts come up for renewal or God forbid, renegotiation, the chickens (more like very large turkeys I suspect) will be roosting with a vengeance (that has to be a mixed metaphor).
I've watched too many CART and IRL races this year where I have been singularly unimpressed by the tracks (did I mention that I dislike ovals, and Denver, what was that? and no more airfields - the only decent airfield was the old Silverstone) and the woeful standard of driving - Billy does not float my Boat and Kenny Wreck, sorry Brach, to name but 2. God, if only Tommy Kendall was a foot shorter. The problem is compounded when you have the time to watch the other races run on the CART tracks in the NASC... (whoops, sorry) Speed Channel GT series etc. Those races are so much damned fun - door-to-door, wheel-to-wheel, fist-to-fist, my God, they are actually EXCITING - are you reading this Mr. Ecclescake, F1 could be made exciting too if you got you're finger out of...:eek:
Anyway, I'm going to be watching the future Mrs Horo1 (Danica Patrick) clean up in Toyota Atlantic next year. :lol: I wonder what she'd prefer, Danica Horo1 or Danica Horo1-Patrick? :D
I've watched too many CART and IRL races this year where I have been singularly unimpressed by the tracks (did I mention that I dislike ovals, and Denver, what was that? and no more airfields - the only decent airfield was the old Silverstone) and the woeful standard of driving - Billy does not float my Boat and Kenny Wreck, sorry Brach, to name but 2. God, if only Tommy Kendall was a foot shorter. The problem is compounded when you have the time to watch the other races run on the CART tracks in the NASC... (whoops, sorry) Speed Channel GT series etc. Those races are so much damned fun - door-to-door, wheel-to-wheel, fist-to-fist, my God, they are actually EXCITING - are you reading this Mr. Ecclescake, F1 could be made exciting too if you got you're finger out of...:eek:
Anyway, I'm going to be watching the future Mrs Horo1 (Danica Patrick) clean up in Toyota Atlantic next year. :lol: I wonder what she'd prefer, Danica Horo1 or Danica Horo1-Patrick? :D
| TampaWRX | 09-20-2002 11:20 PM |
Comparing the open wheel breed to tin toppers is tenuous, but I do see your point. The problem is, there is something inherently more exciting and mythological about open wheel racing on an intangible level. ALL the truly great drivers raced and won in open wheel cars of one variety or another. Remove grand prix racing, USAC/Formula 5000/CART from the racing history books and you're left with very few stories and hardly any drivers who could honestly be called legends. Richard Petty won 200 stockcar races and multiple NASCAR titles, but can you compare him in terms of sheer skill to a Stirling Moss, who won only a handful of grands prix and no World Championships? I think not.
I watch every form of racing on wheels, from bikes to dragsters and enjoy it all, but I hold open wheeled road racing above all the other disciplines. I'm not sure if my opinion is a rational or emotional one, but I just cannot place other forms of racing in the same atmosphere. CART has to survive, because Formula One is in so many ways already dead and the IRL is, well the IRL.
How will Danica Patrick do in top rung single seaters? It's hard to tell, but I do not see her as a future World Champion. Could she be competitive in CART? Again, not sure. I've seen a few of her races and was not necessarily impressed, but she seemed to handle herself reasonably well. It's probably too early to tell on this one, but the hype is certainly starting to grow, which should make acquiring sponsorship that much easier, so who knows how far she can go.
I watch every form of racing on wheels, from bikes to dragsters and enjoy it all, but I hold open wheeled road racing above all the other disciplines. I'm not sure if my opinion is a rational or emotional one, but I just cannot place other forms of racing in the same atmosphere. CART has to survive, because Formula One is in so many ways already dead and the IRL is, well the IRL.
How will Danica Patrick do in top rung single seaters? It's hard to tell, but I do not see her as a future World Champion. Could she be competitive in CART? Again, not sure. I've seen a few of her races and was not necessarily impressed, but she seemed to handle herself reasonably well. It's probably too early to tell on this one, but the hype is certainly starting to grow, which should make acquiring sponsorship that much easier, so who knows how far she can go.
| rkkwan | 09-21-2002 12:25 AM |
Hm... Tampa, I understand what you're saying, but for me, I feel more an association and attachment to sports cars than prototypes or formula cars. For sports cars, you can immediately tell that's a Porsche, that's a Supra, or that's a GS-R. Prototypes or formula cars all look alike.
This went way back in the 70's when I'd glued to the TV to watch the Macao Grand Prix when I lived in nearby Hong Kong. The main race has been Formula Pacific, then recently F3; but for me the highlights are the sports car race with Corolla Levin vs Nissan Sylvia, and later BMW M3 vs Porsche 911, or the occassion Jaguar XJRs or Volvos. Those are just way more memorable and interesting that the formula cars. :)
And I'd mention NASCAR - besides the carburetor and 1950's technology, can anyone look at a car from the side and tell me immediately whether it's a Ford, Chevrolet or Pontiac? ;) Are there any difference?
-Ray
This went way back in the 70's when I'd glued to the TV to watch the Macao Grand Prix when I lived in nearby Hong Kong. The main race has been Formula Pacific, then recently F3; but for me the highlights are the sports car race with Corolla Levin vs Nissan Sylvia, and later BMW M3 vs Porsche 911, or the occassion Jaguar XJRs or Volvos. Those are just way more memorable and interesting that the formula cars. :)
And I'd mention NASCAR - besides the carburetor and 1950's technology, can anyone look at a car from the side and tell me immediately whether it's a Ford, Chevrolet or Pontiac? ;) Are there any difference?
-Ray
| Clegg | 09-21-2002 10:56 AM |
as much as I have long hated IRL, after watching this last season... it was VERY competative, far more competative than any other series I have watched. it was refreshing to see cars actually fighting for the lead, unlike F1 or CART where there are some dominant teams that just walk away with it.
I am sortof changing to an IRL fan purely due to the fact its a fun race to watch, and the win is up in the air till the end, not sealed by the 5th lap as it is with most other race series.
I think bringing Andretti, and the other top notch teams over will help IRL mature and turn into the world class sport it is, yes they dont do as many road courses, but oh well.. I got IMSA or F1 to fill that void.
For what its worth... it beats freaking NASCRAP.
Edit: Forgot to meantion, the Speed World Challenge GT and Touring races are pretty much my favorite of all of them. great drivers, great cars, very even fields.
I am sortof changing to an IRL fan purely due to the fact its a fun race to watch, and the win is up in the air till the end, not sealed by the 5th lap as it is with most other race series.
I think bringing Andretti, and the other top notch teams over will help IRL mature and turn into the world class sport it is, yes they dont do as many road courses, but oh well.. I got IMSA or F1 to fill that void.
For what its worth... it beats freaking NASCRAP.
Edit: Forgot to meantion, the Speed World Challenge GT and Touring races are pretty much my favorite of all of them. great drivers, great cars, very even fields.
| Fred Zaplitny | 09-21-2002 09:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HoRo1 [/i]
[B]I've watched too many CART and IRL races this year where I have been singularly unimpressed by the tracks (did I mention that I dislike ovals, and Denver, what was that? and no more airfields - the only decent airfield was the old Silverstone) [/B][/QUOTE]
Huh? What about Cleveland? That course always makes for a great race. Decent speeds and plenty of room to pass and take chances. Not only that, it's one road course that the spectators can see all the action from the grandstands. I've been there and loved it! Long live Cleveland! Now, please don't tell me it's not on next years CART schedule! :rolleyes: I haven't checked yet.
[B]I've watched too many CART and IRL races this year where I have been singularly unimpressed by the tracks (did I mention that I dislike ovals, and Denver, what was that? and no more airfields - the only decent airfield was the old Silverstone) [/B][/QUOTE]
Huh? What about Cleveland? That course always makes for a great race. Decent speeds and plenty of room to pass and take chances. Not only that, it's one road course that the spectators can see all the action from the grandstands. I've been there and loved it! Long live Cleveland! Now, please don't tell me it's not on next years CART schedule! :rolleyes: I haven't checked yet.
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