| kurtfriedrich | 12-18-2003 02:13 AM |
Alignment for Autocrossing an 04 wrx wagon
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Since I collected this data, I thought I'd share in case anyone else is trying to guess at good settings.
04 factory wagon (from owners manual)
front 33 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 20'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 20'
04 factory coupe (from owners manual)
front 33 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 25'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 30'
04 factory Sti on 17"x225 (from owners manual)
front 36 psi
rear 30 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 30'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 40'
AutoSpeed Jan/03 Rex On Rails Article -Whiteline's Touring recommendations
front 37 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -1.0 degree
rear toe 1mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1.0 deg
AutoSpeed Jan /03-Rex On Rails -Whiteline's Track recommendation
front 37 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -1.5 degree
rear toe 1 to 2mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1.0 to -1.25 deg
[url]http://www.subrew.com/ds_subie.html[/url] subrew.com racing's article on D stock Autocross:
Alignment settings for the WRX are course dependent. Front camber should be set to max negative, which comes out to 3/4 degrees. Front toe-out, in the neighborhood of 1/16 to 1/8 inch improves overall front grip, but equal amounts of front toe-in can aid with front end grip when powering out of tight corners. The rear does not have any provision for camber adjustment, but toe is easily adjusted. Rear toe-out, in the neighborhood of 1/8-inch or greater can really help to rotate the car on courses with sweepers.
What I am going to run in the first autocorss in Jan 04 (Kumo Victoracer tires, but no aftermarket sway bars)
front 37psi
rear 32psi
front toe zero
front camber -1.0 degree
rear toe 1mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1 deg 40' or 1.67 deg
04 factory wagon (from owners manual)
front 33 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 20'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 20'
04 factory coupe (from owners manual)
front 33 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 25'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 30'
04 factory Sti on 17"x225 (from owners manual)
front 36 psi
rear 30 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -0 deg 30'
rear toe 0 mm
rear camber -1 deg 40'
AutoSpeed Jan/03 Rex On Rails Article -Whiteline's Touring recommendations
front 37 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -1.0 degree
rear toe 1mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1.0 deg
AutoSpeed Jan /03-Rex On Rails -Whiteline's Track recommendation
front 37 psi
rear 32 psi
front toe 0 mm
front camber -1.5 degree
rear toe 1 to 2mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1.0 to -1.25 deg
[url]http://www.subrew.com/ds_subie.html[/url] subrew.com racing's article on D stock Autocross:
Alignment settings for the WRX are course dependent. Front camber should be set to max negative, which comes out to 3/4 degrees. Front toe-out, in the neighborhood of 1/16 to 1/8 inch improves overall front grip, but equal amounts of front toe-in can aid with front end grip when powering out of tight corners. The rear does not have any provision for camber adjustment, but toe is easily adjusted. Rear toe-out, in the neighborhood of 1/8-inch or greater can really help to rotate the car on courses with sweepers.
What I am going to run in the first autocorss in Jan 04 (Kumo Victoracer tires, but no aftermarket sway bars)
front 37psi
rear 32psi
front toe zero
front camber -1.0 degree
rear toe 1mm toe-out per side
rear camber -1 deg 40' or 1.67 deg
| Rodan | 12-18-2003 10:44 AM |
Awesome report back how it worked out.
| Kostamojen | 12-19-2003 02:07 AM |
I HIGHLY recomend lowering that rear camber a bit, having more negative rear camber than front camber = understeer.
| Zuffy | 12-19-2003 10:25 AM |
[QUOTE]front camber -0 deg 20'[/QUOTE]
What's the second number (20') in the camber setting mean?
So, without fancy camber plates, -3/4 of a degree is all we can get up front?
B.T.W is it possible to get more caster in our cars without getting an "anti-lift kit"?
What's the second number (20') in the camber setting mean?
So, without fancy camber plates, -3/4 of a degree is all we can get up front?
B.T.W is it possible to get more caster in our cars without getting an "anti-lift kit"?
| wrx2.0 555 | 12-19-2003 10:47 AM |
[QUOTE]look for a thread started by "Fred" recently in which he installed a set of those Whiteline caster-bushings (not the ALK). Jim from Whiteline replied with lots of good information. I think the partnumber is either KCA357 or KCA375[/QUOTE]
Saw that info in the suspension forum.
With H&R lowering springs on my '02 WRX Sedan, I was able to get approx -1.5 camber up front. Just food for thought. They lower the ride height about 1.5".
Saw that info in the suspension forum.
With H&R lowering springs on my '02 WRX Sedan, I was able to get approx -1.5 camber up front. Just food for thought. They lower the ride height about 1.5".
| driggity | 12-19-2003 12:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Zuffy [/i]
[B]What's the second number (20') in the camber setting mean?
[/B][/QUOTE]
20 minutes. There are 60 minutes in one degree so 20 minutes is about .33 degrees.
I was recently thinking about the camber issues inherent to D-stock and was wondering if some adjustments could be made by swapping sedan struts for wagon struts and vice versa. When I put STi sedan struts on my wagon I ended up with a good deal less negative camber than is normal. In the rear I have about -.7 degrees. I wonder if D-stock wagon guys could use sedan rear struts in order to get a better front/rear camber relationship.
[B]What's the second number (20') in the camber setting mean?
[/B][/QUOTE]
20 minutes. There are 60 minutes in one degree so 20 minutes is about .33 degrees.
I was recently thinking about the camber issues inherent to D-stock and was wondering if some adjustments could be made by swapping sedan struts for wagon struts and vice versa. When I put STi sedan struts on my wagon I ended up with a good deal less negative camber than is normal. In the rear I have about -.7 degrees. I wonder if D-stock wagon guys could use sedan rear struts in order to get a better front/rear camber relationship.
| kurtfriedrich | 12-19-2003 01:08 PM |
I just got back from getting an allignment (at Les Schwab). The guy seemed quite knowledgable, including on the effects of the changes to the car for racing -- but, he says that the rear camber is not adjustable for on my 04 WRX wagon. Staying strickly stock, is that true??
| driggity | 12-19-2003 01:15 PM |
Pretty much true. The only adjustment you can get is by loosening and wiggling parts around. This won't do a whole lot for you though. You'll probably be able to even stuff out from side to side but not much more than that.
| Zuffy | 12-19-2003 03:33 PM |
[QUOTE]20 minutes. There are 60 minutes in one degree so 20 minutes is about .33 degrees.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know that the decimal places for camber were expressed in that manner. I was worried reading the factory specs that we ran 0 degrees front camber period! :p But I guess 25' (0.416 degrees) isn't very much anyways.
BTW, how much camber can we get up front on a bone stock car?
Thanks for the explanation. I didn't know that the decimal places for camber were expressed in that manner. I was worried reading the factory specs that we ran 0 degrees front camber period! :p But I guess 25' (0.416 degrees) isn't very much anyways.
BTW, how much camber can we get up front on a bone stock car?
| wrx2.0 555 | 12-19-2003 04:07 PM |
You need aftermarket camber bolts for the rear.
An example:
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=81260[/url]
An example:
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=81260[/url]
| Kostamojen | 12-20-2003 01:24 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by wrx2.0 555 [/i]
[B]You need aftermarket camber bolts for the rear.
An example:
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=81260[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Before you get an alignment, get rear camber bolts. You basically NEED them to get the alignment done properly. And they dont cost much at all (that price there is a little more then they usually cost)
[B]You need aftermarket camber bolts for the rear.
An example:
[url]http://www.oakos.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=355&Product_Code=81260[/url] [/B][/QUOTE]
Before you get an alignment, get rear camber bolts. You basically NEED them to get the alignment done properly. And they dont cost much at all (that price there is a little more then they usually cost)
| KoneKiller | 12-20-2003 01:54 AM |
Camber bolts are not permitted in Stock classes in SCCA. FYI
| Shankster | 12-20-2003 02:22 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]
I was recently thinking about the camber issues inherent to D-stock and was wondering if some adjustments could be made by swapping sedan struts for wagon struts and vice versa. When I put STi sedan struts on my wagon I ended up with a good deal less negative camber than is normal. In the rear I have about -.7 degrees. I wonder if D-stock wagon guys could use sedan rear struts in order to get a better front/rear camber relationship. [/B][/QUOTE]
I put sedan struts on my wagon too - I slotted the lower mounting holes in the front struts to get back some camber and installed camber/caster plates - I can get about -3.5 deg camber. The rear camber is now less than stock (I estimate about -.75 deg - perfect). It works real well and the car rotates MUCH better. I did make a bunch of other upgrades at the same time (konis, GCs, swaybars, endlinks) so I'm not sure what the effect of the camber changes would have been alone. Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though.
[B]
I was recently thinking about the camber issues inherent to D-stock and was wondering if some adjustments could be made by swapping sedan struts for wagon struts and vice versa. When I put STi sedan struts on my wagon I ended up with a good deal less negative camber than is normal. In the rear I have about -.7 degrees. I wonder if D-stock wagon guys could use sedan rear struts in order to get a better front/rear camber relationship. [/B][/QUOTE]
I put sedan struts on my wagon too - I slotted the lower mounting holes in the front struts to get back some camber and installed camber/caster plates - I can get about -3.5 deg camber. The rear camber is now less than stock (I estimate about -.75 deg - perfect). It works real well and the car rotates MUCH better. I did make a bunch of other upgrades at the same time (konis, GCs, swaybars, endlinks) so I'm not sure what the effect of the camber changes would have been alone. Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though.
| Shankster | 12-20-2003 02:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KoneKiller [/i]
[B]Camber bolts are not permitted in Stock classes in SCCA. FYI [/B][/QUOTE]
That's not strictly true - as long as the factory shop manual states that "crash bolts" can be installed to correct alignment that's been screwed up by some sort of damage to the car it's legal.
Unfortunately Subaru doesn't state that in their shop manuals (yet!) They should realize that a D stock championship could possibly be their's by adding a few lines of text.
[B]Camber bolts are not permitted in Stock classes in SCCA. FYI [/B][/QUOTE]
That's not strictly true - as long as the factory shop manual states that "crash bolts" can be installed to correct alignment that's been screwed up by some sort of damage to the car it's legal.
Unfortunately Subaru doesn't state that in their shop manuals (yet!) They should realize that a D stock championship could possibly be their's by adding a few lines of text.
| Gravel Girl | 12-20-2003 05:49 PM |
You may want to look at these for easy at the track adjustments. These are top quality and work wonders !!!
[url]http://www.pde-usa.com/SUBARU%20PRODUCTS%20WRX%20CAMBER%20-%20CASTER%20ADJUSTERS.htm[/url]
[url]http://www.pde-usa.com/SUBARU%20PRODUCTS%20WRX%20CAMBER%20-%20CASTER%20ADJUSTERS.htm[/url]
| KoneKiller | 12-20-2003 11:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shankster [/i]
[B]That's not strictly true - as long as the factory shop manual states that "crash bolts" can be installed to correct alignment that's been screwed up by some sort of damage to the car it's legal.
Unfortunately Subaru doesn't state that in their shop manuals (yet!) They should realize that a D stock championship could possibly be their's by adding a few lines of text. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ahh... yes, you are correct. My bad. Subaru?? Are you listening?
[B]That's not strictly true - as long as the factory shop manual states that "crash bolts" can be installed to correct alignment that's been screwed up by some sort of damage to the car it's legal.
Unfortunately Subaru doesn't state that in their shop manuals (yet!) They should realize that a D stock championship could possibly be their's by adding a few lines of text. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ahh... yes, you are correct. My bad. Subaru?? Are you listening?
| driggity | 12-21-2003 07:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Shankster [/i]
[B]Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though. [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes. :confused:
[B]Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though. [/B][/QUOTE]
I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes. :confused:
| sublime wagon | 12-21-2003 07:43 PM |
i have an 02 wagon with 17in prodrive's on 215/25 nittos. one shop said to have them at 32 psi at all four tires, and another said 30 in front 29 in back. so im confused cause the STi rating is 32 32 psi, for the 17in rim. whatca think?
| mav1c | 12-21-2003 08:57 PM |
[QUOTE]So, without fancy camber plates, -3/4 of a degree is all we can get up front?[/QUOTE]
Definitely not. I run Cusco front camber plates and Tanabe rear camber plates. I currently have my camber settings at -2 front, -1 rear, 0 toe all around. There's a lot of other things done to the suspension, but when I went to this alignment, I noticed a a lot better turn-in, and a lot less understeer, without going too far and making the rear come around easily.
Definitely not. I run Cusco front camber plates and Tanabe rear camber plates. I currently have my camber settings at -2 front, -1 rear, 0 toe all around. There's a lot of other things done to the suspension, but when I went to this alignment, I noticed a a lot better turn-in, and a lot less understeer, without going too far and making the rear come around easily.
| ConeMasher | 12-21-2003 08:58 PM |
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Shankster
Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though.
[/QUOTE]
I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes
[/QUOTE]
13.5.A:
"- Suspension geometry and alignment capability, not including ride height, may not be altered by the substitution of alternate shock absorbers.
- Adjustable spring perches are allowed, but the spring load-bearing surface must be in the same location relative to the shock mounting points as on the standard part. Shims may be used to achieve compliance."
Sorry Charlie, no free camber by shock trickery. Degassed standard length struts can yield a slight drop however.
-- Gary
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Shankster
Changing out rear wagon struts for sedan struts on a D stock car would'nt be legal - cheaters could be spotted by the change in ride height. It works great on a STX car though.
[/QUOTE]
I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes
[/QUOTE]
13.5.A:
"- Suspension geometry and alignment capability, not including ride height, may not be altered by the substitution of alternate shock absorbers.
- Adjustable spring perches are allowed, but the spring load-bearing surface must be in the same location relative to the shock mounting points as on the standard part. Shims may be used to achieve compliance."
Sorry Charlie, no free camber by shock trickery. Degassed standard length struts can yield a slight drop however.
-- Gary
| ChrisDP | 12-22-2003 12:53 AM |
Yup. Replacement struts need to retain stock physical ride height constraints- changing ride height/camber allowance is not legal unless like Conemasher said, the ride height change is due to the decrease in gas pressure. The mounting geometry needs to be the same though.
To the original poster... I think you're going to find that's nowhere near enough pressure for autoxing the stock wagon on stock wheels with Victoracers. I ran 45psi up front and 55psi+ in the rear in my 02 sedan on Ecsta V700s. I suspect you'll end up with something similar.
To the original poster... I think you're going to find that's nowhere near enough pressure for autoxing the stock wagon on stock wheels with Victoracers. I ran 45psi up front and 55psi+ in the rear in my 02 sedan on Ecsta V700s. I suspect you'll end up with something similar.
| KC | 12-22-2003 08:02 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KoneKiller[/i]
[B] Ahh... yes, you are correct. My bad. Subaru?? Are you listening? [/B][/QUOTE]
Those that need to know... know about it. :) They've known for a couple years now. Dunno if you'll ever see a change tho, so don't hold your breath.
As far as stock alignment, I think it's safe to say that my car, only being stock in 2001, I didn't have it set up optimally so I can't really chime in here on stock alignment. However some things don't change... dial toe out in the rear at the event, and then put it back before you go home. It's easily adjustable in the rear.
Also about tire pressures... Chris has it on the nose, you have no where near enough pressure on a stock suspension. With that low a pressure compounded by the weight of the vehicle and factoring in extreme lack of camber, you'll kill the edges of your tires in no time. ;) Bump them up. I used to run close to 50 all around.
--kC
[B] Ahh... yes, you are correct. My bad. Subaru?? Are you listening? [/B][/QUOTE]
Those that need to know... know about it. :) They've known for a couple years now. Dunno if you'll ever see a change tho, so don't hold your breath.
As far as stock alignment, I think it's safe to say that my car, only being stock in 2001, I didn't have it set up optimally so I can't really chime in here on stock alignment. However some things don't change... dial toe out in the rear at the event, and then put it back before you go home. It's easily adjustable in the rear.
Also about tire pressures... Chris has it on the nose, you have no where near enough pressure on a stock suspension. With that low a pressure compounded by the weight of the vehicle and factoring in extreme lack of camber, you'll kill the edges of your tires in no time. ;) Bump them up. I used to run close to 50 all around.
--kC
| Shankster | 12-22-2003 09:25 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by driggity [/i]
[B]I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Aftermarket struts are allowed - they just have to be the same size / geometry as the factory units. KYB and Koni work - maybe some others now.
[B]I thought D-stock allowed for strut changes. :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Aftermarket struts are allowed - they just have to be the same size / geometry as the factory units. KYB and Koni work - maybe some others now.
| Shankster | 12-22-2003 09:42 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ConeMasher
Degassed standard length struts can yield a slight drop however.[/i][/QUOTE]
Really? I would have thought that the strut would find the length dictated by the spring. Under cornering load (where it matters) I would definitely assume that the spring would be the height controlling component. I can take a strut off my car and by putting my weight on it squish it all the way down - I could be wrong but I'd think with a +3000# car bearing down on it the guts of the strut have nothing to do with ride height.
Degassed standard length struts can yield a slight drop however.[/i][/QUOTE]
Really? I would have thought that the strut would find the length dictated by the spring. Under cornering load (where it matters) I would definitely assume that the spring would be the height controlling component. I can take a strut off my car and by putting my weight on it squish it all the way down - I could be wrong but I'd think with a +3000# car bearing down on it the guts of the strut have nothing to do with ride height.
| KoneKiller | 12-22-2003 09:45 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]Also about tire pressures... Chris has it on the nose, you have no where near enough pressure on a stock suspension. With that low a pressure compounded by the weight of the vehicle and factoring in extreme lack of camber, you'll kill the edges of your tires in no time. ;) Bump them up. I used to run close to 50 all around.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
When I tried to run pressures above 44 in my Kumho MX's I lost grip. You have to find that right pressure that gives you good turn in and good grip but doesn't melt the edges of the tires.
For me, I run about 42 in the fronts with the Kumhos and tinker with the rears to keep the car tail happy... usually about 36.
And I also keep a fair bit of rear toe out to keep it tricky. Stable is slow.
[B]Also about tire pressures... Chris has it on the nose, you have no where near enough pressure on a stock suspension. With that low a pressure compounded by the weight of the vehicle and factoring in extreme lack of camber, you'll kill the edges of your tires in no time. ;) Bump them up. I used to run close to 50 all around.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
When I tried to run pressures above 44 in my Kumho MX's I lost grip. You have to find that right pressure that gives you good turn in and good grip but doesn't melt the edges of the tires.
For me, I run about 42 in the fronts with the Kumhos and tinker with the rears to keep the car tail happy... usually about 36.
And I also keep a fair bit of rear toe out to keep it tricky. Stable is slow.
| KC | 12-22-2003 10:07 AM |
Kumho MX != V700 or Victoracers! :)
The Kumhos I spoke of for stock were the R-Compounds (Victoracers).
--kC
The Kumhos I spoke of for stock were the R-Compounds (Victoracers).
--kC
| KoneKiller | 12-22-2003 11:29 AM |
I run both tires, the MX and the V700 victos.
For the merely mortal WRX, we put the MX on it because we didn't want to swap tires, I usually place 3rd in a crowded DS class. That's what I put 42/38 in.
The Superoo STi gets the V700s and is doing well in AS on them. Still experimenting with pressures on this car.
Safe holidays to you.
For the merely mortal WRX, we put the MX on it because we didn't want to swap tires, I usually place 3rd in a crowded DS class. That's what I put 42/38 in.
The Superoo STi gets the V700s and is doing well in AS on them. Still experimenting with pressures on this car.
Safe holidays to you.
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