| Kikin | 07-19-2002 07:23 AM |
For all technical gurus!
Ok, here's the dilemma. Here in PR we run 5-7 WRX in road racing in a category similar to SCCA T2. The only mods permitted to the cars are free exhaust, stock intake with a K&N filter, chip (unichip) with stock boost psi on stock turbo. All the WRX run very similar, as we all run basically the same mods, except for one that they claim the only additional mods done to the car are balancing and blueprinting of the engine and a unichip tune specifically for that engine which was send to Cobb tuning for those mods mentioned above with a price tag of $6,000 +.
Now my question is, how much more power would that car be making over the other WRX's?
I'm asking because by the way they pass us on the straights the car must have at least 50 more Hp than ours. He is a full 2 seconds faster than any of the other WRX's and the driver factor is not it because that have been proved. This WRX will hang for the entire race with a BMW M3 E46 and run only 2 seconds slower on a 1.5 mile circuit than a corvette Z06. The car I'm referring here is currently portrait in the Cobb Tuning web page.
Your help in this matter will be really appreciated.
Hector
Now my question is, how much more power would that car be making over the other WRX's?
I'm asking because by the way they pass us on the straights the car must have at least 50 more Hp than ours. He is a full 2 seconds faster than any of the other WRX's and the driver factor is not it because that have been proved. This WRX will hang for the entire race with a BMW M3 E46 and run only 2 seconds slower on a 1.5 mile circuit than a corvette Z06. The car I'm referring here is currently portrait in the Cobb Tuning web page.
Your help in this matter will be really appreciated.
Hector
| HoRo1 | 07-19-2002 05:07 PM |
Well, if his engine is exactly the same as yours except for the blueprinting/balancing and the custom chip, I can believe an extra 50 HP. Not torqueing the crankshaft as much is worth a couple of HP, blueprinting and balancing (depending on how well the original is put together) can be worth anything from 10-40HP - all that matched port stuff and polishing, nice pistons and rods etc. The chip, I suppose they could wring an extra few horse out of it.
If I was going racing, I would definitely have my engine blueprinted/balanced. What's his redline? Higher than yours I'll bet.
The bottom line, Hector, is that money buys speed. If you want to compete, go to the bank. Unless of course his chip has more than one program in it! :eek:
If I was going racing, I would definitely have my engine blueprinted/balanced. What's his redline? Higher than yours I'll bet.
The bottom line, Hector, is that money buys speed. If you want to compete, go to the bank. Unless of course his chip has more than one program in it! :eek:
| Kikin | 07-19-2002 08:33 PM |
All the engine parts, pistons, rods, etc. have to be the ones from the factory. You can not put aftermarket pistons, rods, etc. Also all you can do is match ports with the bigger one and balance the parts with the one with less weight. Resulting in one of the ports or parts remaining stock. Ex. you weight the pistons and take the one with less weight as your target and take the excess weight of the others to match your target resulting in one piston remaining stock. The same with the ports, take the one with the biggest diameter as your target and match the others to that one, but one have to remaing stock.
But the question remains, Is that work worth $6,000+ ??
and don't you think 50 hp is too much for just that mods ??
But the question remains, Is that work worth $6,000+ ??
and don't you think 50 hp is too much for just that mods ??
| HoRo1 | 07-20-2002 04:58 PM |
If you have to use factory bits then I would be shocked...shocked if that car made a lot more HP than yours, but a really good engine builder can find 2-3 HP here and 2-3 HP there. I doubt if he has 50 HP more, but one thing is for sure though, he must have had good reason to drop $6K into his engine.
So, lets go back to basics. You say that they don't have a better driver. Maybe they've managed to come up with a better suspension setup using the stock parts. Maybe they are getting 10% or so extra power out of their $6K engine. Maybe they've found a way to take out 100lbs without anybody noticing (are the cars weighed?). Maybe they're cheating...er using the rules better than anyone else. Or a combination of the above. A long time ago in a land far away, I was having a really top-end shop do some work for me. On the workshop floor was an Aston Martin DB5 or 6 GT (memory fails me - but a truly great sports car from the '60s for you youngsters) that had been cut in half and welded back together, but was 1/2 an inch wider to give the driver a track advantage! You can't imagine the lengths that some people will go to.
When you get tired of getting beaten, you could lodge a complaint and have their motor stripped etc - always results in friendly chats in the pits.
So, I looked at the image on Cobb's site - is that sponsorship that I see on the car? Do you guys all run on 100 octane unleaded race fuel? The tracks that you use, handling tracks or horsepower tracks? They'd better be handling tracks or the ZO6 needs a better driver. A prepared ZO6 should not be slower than a WRX on a horsepower circuit. You might have to get Cobb to build you an engine.
So, lets go back to basics. You say that they don't have a better driver. Maybe they've managed to come up with a better suspension setup using the stock parts. Maybe they are getting 10% or so extra power out of their $6K engine. Maybe they've found a way to take out 100lbs without anybody noticing (are the cars weighed?). Maybe they're cheating...er using the rules better than anyone else. Or a combination of the above. A long time ago in a land far away, I was having a really top-end shop do some work for me. On the workshop floor was an Aston Martin DB5 or 6 GT (memory fails me - but a truly great sports car from the '60s for you youngsters) that had been cut in half and welded back together, but was 1/2 an inch wider to give the driver a track advantage! You can't imagine the lengths that some people will go to.
When you get tired of getting beaten, you could lodge a complaint and have their motor stripped etc - always results in friendly chats in the pits.
So, I looked at the image on Cobb's site - is that sponsorship that I see on the car? Do you guys all run on 100 octane unleaded race fuel? The tracks that you use, handling tracks or horsepower tracks? They'd better be handling tracks or the ZO6 needs a better driver. A prepared ZO6 should not be slower than a WRX on a horsepower circuit. You might have to get Cobb to build you an engine.
| Kikin | 07-20-2002 09:19 PM |
The basics: cars have to weight the same as stated in the manufacturer's curb weight (3,085 sedan, 3,155 wagon) although you can remove weight and put it back where you wanted at the end the car have to weight the same as curb weight. Suspension we run the same, STI, as you can only change struts and springs with ones that are OEM or alternatives. No coilovers are allowed. Swaybars we run more or less the same. Brakes have to remain the stock ones, the only thing that you can change is steel braided lines, pads and brake fluid. Race gas is not allowed, we have to run pump gas, and the better we get here is 93.
Exhaust is free but has to have 1 cat and muffler and follow the same route as the stock one.
The track you can say is half horsepower and have handling. The two straights we have, one is a little bit more than a 1/4 mile and the other is like 1/8 mile. To get you a picture of the kind of power this car has, before we enter the longer straight he is like 2-3 cars behind and by the braking zone comes he is 5-6 cars ahead. This pass is not done with drafting, just pure power. The cars are weight in after cualification and again after the race is finished and he is putting the curb weight, so we know is not a weight advantage.
So, if you say that if the internal parts are the stock ones not much horsepower could be made as it is. Then what can have been done to the engine to make this kind of horsepower?
Maybe Trey of Cobb Tunning can share some info on this.
The car is sponsored by the Subaru distributor and dealer, Trebol Motors
Exhaust is free but has to have 1 cat and muffler and follow the same route as the stock one.
The track you can say is half horsepower and have handling. The two straights we have, one is a little bit more than a 1/4 mile and the other is like 1/8 mile. To get you a picture of the kind of power this car has, before we enter the longer straight he is like 2-3 cars behind and by the braking zone comes he is 5-6 cars ahead. This pass is not done with drafting, just pure power. The cars are weight in after cualification and again after the race is finished and he is putting the curb weight, so we know is not a weight advantage.
So, if you say that if the internal parts are the stock ones not much horsepower could be made as it is. Then what can have been done to the engine to make this kind of horsepower?
Maybe Trey of Cobb Tunning can share some info on this.
The car is sponsored by the Subaru distributor and dealer, Trebol Motors
| RawCode | 07-21-2002 12:52 AM |
Maybe your motor is sick? Have you done compression tests just to make sure it is in good health?
Also I can see a chip giving a good horsepower gain.
An Example:
SCC did a dyno test of their WRX before and after a ECU reset. BEfore the ECU reset it made 174 some HP. After the ecu reset it made around 165. Just after an ecu reset. Can you say "adaptive ECU?" :lol: And that is with stock. So with a Blueprinted and balanced engine, I do think think they would be able to pass you with ease.
RawCode
Also I can see a chip giving a good horsepower gain.
An Example:
SCC did a dyno test of their WRX before and after a ECU reset. BEfore the ECU reset it made 174 some HP. After the ecu reset it made around 165. Just after an ecu reset. Can you say "adaptive ECU?" :lol: And that is with stock. So with a Blueprinted and balanced engine, I do think think they would be able to pass you with ease.
RawCode
| Macabre | 07-21-2002 01:09 AM |
The balancing is probably irrelevant given you have to keep the stock turbo (so higher rpms won't help much).. but dyno tuning can be very advantageous. Find a competant shop capable of mapping the unichip specificly for your car/fuel and you should be in better shape.
| Kikin | 07-21-2002 09:42 AM |
The problem is we don't have an AWD dyno on the island. So in order to have the ecu mapped right we have to take out the engine and send it to any tunner in the USA (Cobb, TurboXS, etc..). So what we did was the next best thing. As we are a dealer of TurboXS we told Mark what we have and he tune a chip according to those specifics mods. It's not the best way but it's te next best way as we are not going to go into the trouble of sending the engine overthere.
| mtclaes | 07-22-2002 06:41 AM |
This might be obvious but perhaps they opened up the wastegate actuator and installed a stiffer spring? Do the rules mandate a spec "pop-off valve" to limit boost? Just a thought.
-Mike
-Mike
| Macabre | 07-22-2002 01:42 PM |
You could convert your vehicle to 2WD for dyno runs, as Shiv did.
Also, does anyone check the actual boost on the cars? As mtclaes implied, it would be very easy to stealthly increase boost, which would certainly explain your competitor's advantage.
Also, does anyone check the actual boost on the cars? As mtclaes implied, it would be very easy to stealthly increase boost, which would certainly explain your competitor's advantage.
| Kikin | 07-22-2002 10:21 PM |
We don't know how to convert it to 2WD.
We have to run stock boost level with a margin of error of 10% for the boost spikes. Also we have to install a boost gage with memory in the engine bay. This gage is installed as instructions given by the technical comitty and is checked after cualification and after the race. We and every other WRX runs 1 bar of boost. They run .9 bars. As you can see we are going nuts overhere trying to find out how to get the extra power they have and so far we have come empty on explanations. The only thing we can think up is that since the engine was send to cobb tunning they did a stage 1 on the heads and/or block, which is illegal in the category we run.
We have to run stock boost level with a margin of error of 10% for the boost spikes. Also we have to install a boost gage with memory in the engine bay. This gage is installed as instructions given by the technical comitty and is checked after cualification and after the race. We and every other WRX runs 1 bar of boost. They run .9 bars. As you can see we are going nuts overhere trying to find out how to get the extra power they have and so far we have come empty on explanations. The only thing we can think up is that since the engine was send to cobb tunning they did a stage 1 on the heads and/or block, which is illegal in the category we run.
| ScoobyPhil | 07-22-2002 11:21 PM |
balancing and blueprinting
I am not the guru on balancing and blueprinting, but from what I've heard over the years, you can get very significant gains in power over a stock engine. I'm not gonna go and get theoretical and talk about power losses due to friction, etc etc..
Engine plants in the U.S. and I'm sure in Japan are automated. However, the tolerances that they decide to meet may not be as tight as you would think.
I suppose if they were, there wouldn't be an after market for balancing and blueprinting.
Again, i'm not the guru on this. I never had an engine balanced and blueprinted (although I have rebuilt them, not a subaru engine though); Seems to me that $6000 is pretty expensive just for that. Perhaps there are alot of special parts inside that engine that they don't want you to know about.:eek:
Well that is all I can say about that. :)
Update:
Checked with my guy and I guess you can easily spend $6000 on just balancing and blueprinting a motor...
Engine plants in the U.S. and I'm sure in Japan are automated. However, the tolerances that they decide to meet may not be as tight as you would think.
I suppose if they were, there wouldn't be an after market for balancing and blueprinting.
Again, i'm not the guru on this. I never had an engine balanced and blueprinted (although I have rebuilt them, not a subaru engine though); Seems to me that $6000 is pretty expensive just for that. Perhaps there are alot of special parts inside that engine that they don't want you to know about.:eek:
Well that is all I can say about that. :)
Update:
Checked with my guy and I guess you can easily spend $6000 on just balancing and blueprinting a motor...
| Kikin | 07-23-2002 10:28 AM |
Again! Maybe Trey of Cobb tunning can share some light in this matter. Because if the engine only have balancing and bluprinting :eek: as they claim they have you can be sure Trey would be receiving at least 4 more engines for that work!
| Trey | 07-23-2002 11:25 AM |
Kikin,
We are happy to report that the engine used in the Trebol Motors WRX is in fact a Showroom Stock legal engine. We built it using all stock Subaru parts with no modifications exceeding those allowed for by the rules of competition. We did have a rule book sent to us prior to the build to verify what we do is in fact legal.
Additional to the engine work we performed, we also provided some exhaust components and the Unichip as part of our build package.
I am confident that, if protested, the engine will pass a thorough inspection. We did build the engine to exacting standards and tolerances which we know will make optimal power, but nothing outside of what's allowed for in rules. This is where the term "blueprinting" comes from. It's more than simply handbuilding a motor to be within a factory tolerance, it's understand what tolerances net best results.
Unfortunately I cannot go into the specifics of what tolerances we use, or other in-depth details. All I can say is that the engine and cylinder heads are legal, and the Unichip tuned specific for the application can only help to maximize its potential.
Best of luck,
Trey Cobb.
We are happy to report that the engine used in the Trebol Motors WRX is in fact a Showroom Stock legal engine. We built it using all stock Subaru parts with no modifications exceeding those allowed for by the rules of competition. We did have a rule book sent to us prior to the build to verify what we do is in fact legal.
Additional to the engine work we performed, we also provided some exhaust components and the Unichip as part of our build package.
I am confident that, if protested, the engine will pass a thorough inspection. We did build the engine to exacting standards and tolerances which we know will make optimal power, but nothing outside of what's allowed for in rules. This is where the term "blueprinting" comes from. It's more than simply handbuilding a motor to be within a factory tolerance, it's understand what tolerances net best results.
Unfortunately I cannot go into the specifics of what tolerances we use, or other in-depth details. All I can say is that the engine and cylinder heads are legal, and the Unichip tuned specific for the application can only help to maximize its potential.
Best of luck,
Trey Cobb.
| Kikin | 07-23-2002 03:28 PM |
Thanks for your reply Trey. Wonder what set of rules they send you? I will leave this topic as it is for now as the truth will always come out.
In another topic. Trey, don't know if you heard, but Arnaldo Matos one of the drivers of that car died of an heart attack a couple of weeks ago. We will miss him as he always gave 150% on the track.
In another topic. Trey, don't know if you heard, but Arnaldo Matos one of the drivers of that car died of an heart attack a couple of weeks ago. We will miss him as he always gave 150% on the track.
| Trey | 07-23-2002 06:48 PM |
Kikin,
To my knowledge, the rules I received were those of the SCCA Showroom Stock class, though I could be mistaken. Pretty much the basic stock-class engine rules you normally see with no head porting, only use stock parts, can't lighten components beyond manufacturer spec, etc.
I only just heard of Arnaldo Matos passing away from Efrain @ Nativo Performance. Nativo organized most of our dealing with the Trebol team but I had a few communications with Arnaldo Matos and he seemed very passionate about life and racing. We are saddened to hear the news and wish the best for his family, friends, and the entire team.
Anyway, all the best. Hopefully you will continue to have friendly competition there in Puerto Rico.
Kind Regards,
Trey Cobb.
To my knowledge, the rules I received were those of the SCCA Showroom Stock class, though I could be mistaken. Pretty much the basic stock-class engine rules you normally see with no head porting, only use stock parts, can't lighten components beyond manufacturer spec, etc.
I only just heard of Arnaldo Matos passing away from Efrain @ Nativo Performance. Nativo organized most of our dealing with the Trebol team but I had a few communications with Arnaldo Matos and he seemed very passionate about life and racing. We are saddened to hear the news and wish the best for his family, friends, and the entire team.
Anyway, all the best. Hopefully you will continue to have friendly competition there in Puerto Rico.
Kind Regards,
Trey Cobb.
| Mr. Gasket | 07-23-2002 07:42 PM |
Hector:
I (again) am not trying to defend anyone as I told you before, but there are a few things you are NOT trying to find out first. Let me explain:
1. Miguel's car has a disanvantage to start with, 80 lbs ( you did not say you are racing the wagon)...Use some physics 101 and that would translate in 6.12hp difference (I calulated both cars at 227 hp, if they have more hp, this number should increase).
2. Blueprinting is not black magic, you can find all about it on books (try ENGINE BLUEPRINTING by Rick Voegelin at Borders) althought it explain V8 engine blueprinting, it applies to all internal combustion engines...
3. There is NO way you can go racing without basic blueprinting and balancing and expect to win ( winning means beating the rest of the pack, not waiting for them to break), the same falls to preparing the chassis and suspension. A bolt on racing parts car IS NOT a race car.
4. I understand that Cobb tunning have been building Subaru race engines for a while and not only know what they are doing but all their parts and work are bench tested, so if some engine comes out from their shop, I'm sure it will be performing to its optimum.
5. Break in procedure; I understand that Miguel's wagon has not passed such procedure yet ( Is it over 1K miles yet?). Anyone can tell you that just that WILL make a difference.
Again Hector I do not defend anyone, but you need to understand that races are won driving the car and not whinning about somebody elses well prepared car. I would suggest you invest time and money on engine/chassis combo before you complain...
So, here is my estimated difference between Arnaldo's and Miguel's:
6.12 hp just by weight difference
maybe 10 hp by break in
20-30 hp by blueprinting and balancing
20-30 hp on Unichip programming
Exhausts may have no difference on either car (as far as I know).
I should also include the throttle response increase on the blueprinting and balancing PLUS the higher RPM peak power (more RPM means more power, duh!!)
of course you can't add them up but I could tell you that a difference of 40 to 60 hp is in order...
Please do not take it personally but it is the truth.
Jose Garufi
I (again) am not trying to defend anyone as I told you before, but there are a few things you are NOT trying to find out first. Let me explain:
1. Miguel's car has a disanvantage to start with, 80 lbs ( you did not say you are racing the wagon)...Use some physics 101 and that would translate in 6.12hp difference (I calulated both cars at 227 hp, if they have more hp, this number should increase).
2. Blueprinting is not black magic, you can find all about it on books (try ENGINE BLUEPRINTING by Rick Voegelin at Borders) althought it explain V8 engine blueprinting, it applies to all internal combustion engines...
3. There is NO way you can go racing without basic blueprinting and balancing and expect to win ( winning means beating the rest of the pack, not waiting for them to break), the same falls to preparing the chassis and suspension. A bolt on racing parts car IS NOT a race car.
4. I understand that Cobb tunning have been building Subaru race engines for a while and not only know what they are doing but all their parts and work are bench tested, so if some engine comes out from their shop, I'm sure it will be performing to its optimum.
5. Break in procedure; I understand that Miguel's wagon has not passed such procedure yet ( Is it over 1K miles yet?). Anyone can tell you that just that WILL make a difference.
Again Hector I do not defend anyone, but you need to understand that races are won driving the car and not whinning about somebody elses well prepared car. I would suggest you invest time and money on engine/chassis combo before you complain...
So, here is my estimated difference between Arnaldo's and Miguel's:
6.12 hp just by weight difference
maybe 10 hp by break in
20-30 hp by blueprinting and balancing
20-30 hp on Unichip programming
Exhausts may have no difference on either car (as far as I know).
I should also include the throttle response increase on the blueprinting and balancing PLUS the higher RPM peak power (more RPM means more power, duh!!)
of course you can't add them up but I could tell you that a difference of 40 to 60 hp is in order...
Please do not take it personally but it is the truth.
Jose Garufi
| Kikin | 07-23-2002 08:40 PM |
Don't worry Garufi that I don't take things personally unless they are really personally.
We have said a million times that if the car is legal according to the rules used here, not some that they translate to fit their purposes we are more than glad to recognize their merit. To bad Arnaldo is no longer with us, but coming from him who had a history of running cars not completely legal we have to doubt about this car also.
There's another factor also that we haven't mentioned. They run with Hoosiers tires, we run with Kumhos Ecsta V700. But that won't be a factor since for the next race we are going with Hoosiers.
But that's not the point here. The point here is that when you have a car that runs door to door on the straights with a M3 E46, a car which haves 343 hp stock and this one is moded with more or less the same mods as ours cars, you can say something is going on here. Our cars come with 227, do the math and tell me it is possible with just the mods permitted for the category. My wagon is putting close to 240hp to the wheels now and the other day an M3 E46 walk me on the highway by 3-4 cars. And to believe that a car that has to be putting less hp than my wagon to the wheels can run door to door with a moded M3 E46 is a little hard to swallow.
We have said a million times that if the car is legal according to the rules used here, not some that they translate to fit their purposes we are more than glad to recognize their merit. To bad Arnaldo is no longer with us, but coming from him who had a history of running cars not completely legal we have to doubt about this car also.
There's another factor also that we haven't mentioned. They run with Hoosiers tires, we run with Kumhos Ecsta V700. But that won't be a factor since for the next race we are going with Hoosiers.
But that's not the point here. The point here is that when you have a car that runs door to door on the straights with a M3 E46, a car which haves 343 hp stock and this one is moded with more or less the same mods as ours cars, you can say something is going on here. Our cars come with 227, do the math and tell me it is possible with just the mods permitted for the category. My wagon is putting close to 240hp to the wheels now and the other day an M3 E46 walk me on the highway by 3-4 cars. And to believe that a car that has to be putting less hp than my wagon to the wheels can run door to door with a moded M3 E46 is a little hard to swallow.
| Leonardo | 07-23-2002 09:05 PM |
Trey, IF I were to do those same mods as Trebol's car for street use and ther ocasional auto x, how much would it run me?
TIA
Leo
TIA
Leo
| Kikin | 07-24-2002 03:19 PM |
Garufi, I didn't mentioned we race the wagon because to tell you the truth there is not much difference between the two. Yes the sedan weight a little bit less but the wagon handles better.
About the break in period, only for the first race we did the wagon had less than a 1,000 miles. Now it has like 2,500 so that is not a factor anymore.
Don't tell me we can't go racing and be competitive without doing bluprinting and balancing. We've been doing it for the past 3 years now. Or are you forgetting we won 2 championchips with the 2.5RS with a true stock engine, never opened.
And look the other cars in the category, everyone is more or less doing the same lap times.
When are you going to accept that there is something else going on with this car, when he runs in front of the Z06??
I'll leave you with that to think about.
About the break in period, only for the first race we did the wagon had less than a 1,000 miles. Now it has like 2,500 so that is not a factor anymore.
Don't tell me we can't go racing and be competitive without doing bluprinting and balancing. We've been doing it for the past 3 years now. Or are you forgetting we won 2 championchips with the 2.5RS with a true stock engine, never opened.
And look the other cars in the category, everyone is more or less doing the same lap times.
When are you going to accept that there is something else going on with this car, when he runs in front of the Z06??
I'll leave you with that to think about.
| iceweazel | 07-24-2002 04:00 PM |
If you are very concerned about the legality of this car, does your series not have a Bond and Tear Down for protests? Pay the
fee and have him torn down. If there are illegalities, yourself
and all your competitors will be much happier knowing one way or the other.
Check fuel octane, check injectors, fuel pumps, porting distances,etc.
I'm not familiar with the series' in PR, but I wonder how similar
the rules are to Showroom Stock.
Ed
fee and have him torn down. If there are illegalities, yourself
and all your competitors will be much happier knowing one way or the other.
Check fuel octane, check injectors, fuel pumps, porting distances,etc.
I'm not familiar with the series' in PR, but I wonder how similar
the rules are to Showroom Stock.
Ed
| Mr. Gasket | 07-24-2002 05:00 PM |
Hector:
Whomever is brainwashing you is doing a great job!! do your homework and PROVE you are right. If you are so confident about the illegality of Matos' car, make an official complaint because if it is illegal you do not have to worry about paying Cobb to put it back together...
I will not give my complete opinion as why or how you won 2 championships, but it was not because you guys were the fastest...
I think we should talk this over (again) next meeting as it will take for ever to explain you why for all your questions and doubts.
Cheers
Jose
Whomever is brainwashing you is doing a great job!! do your homework and PROVE you are right. If you are so confident about the illegality of Matos' car, make an official complaint because if it is illegal you do not have to worry about paying Cobb to put it back together...
I will not give my complete opinion as why or how you won 2 championships, but it was not because you guys were the fastest...
I think we should talk this over (again) next meeting as it will take for ever to explain you why for all your questions and doubts.
Cheers
Jose
| Kikin | 07-26-2002 09:01 AM |
Trey, on more and last question. Does the Trebol's engine has the same setup as the one in Gary Sheehan's car?
| Trey | 07-26-2002 07:53 PM |
Kikin,
They are both built to very similiar rules, but to say they are technical identical would be a lie. For Trebol, we were asked to provide a complete package to be used under "sprint" type racing conditions for maximum performance. For SMR, we were asked to provide only the engine longblock to be used under "endurance" type racing. So, obviously the engines are both build with stock parts, but their focus is quite different.
Keep in mind that the key to maximum performance is with the PACKAGE, not simply one component. With Trebol, I provided the package. With SMR, I simply provide a component and have no control over what goes around it or how it's tuned.
And yes, a blueprinted motor WILL make more power than a stock Subaru motor -- 100% legally. So, basically Trebol has raised the bar for your class there in PR. If you want to compete, you'll have to do the same. You can spend your money protesting them, but it'd probably be in your best interest to simply pay to rebuild one motor (yours) instead of two. ;)
Leo - we could be the same setup as Trebol for you, but unless you are forced to abide by rules that require stock parts, why would you want to? I guess it would depend on your goals but it's quite a bit of money to spend on the work if you don't have to be legal for a racing class.
Best regards,
Trey Cobb.
They are both built to very similiar rules, but to say they are technical identical would be a lie. For Trebol, we were asked to provide a complete package to be used under "sprint" type racing conditions for maximum performance. For SMR, we were asked to provide only the engine longblock to be used under "endurance" type racing. So, obviously the engines are both build with stock parts, but their focus is quite different.
Keep in mind that the key to maximum performance is with the PACKAGE, not simply one component. With Trebol, I provided the package. With SMR, I simply provide a component and have no control over what goes around it or how it's tuned.
And yes, a blueprinted motor WILL make more power than a stock Subaru motor -- 100% legally. So, basically Trebol has raised the bar for your class there in PR. If you want to compete, you'll have to do the same. You can spend your money protesting them, but it'd probably be in your best interest to simply pay to rebuild one motor (yours) instead of two. ;)
Leo - we could be the same setup as Trebol for you, but unless you are forced to abide by rules that require stock parts, why would you want to? I guess it would depend on your goals but it's quite a bit of money to spend on the work if you don't have to be legal for a racing class.
Best regards,
Trey Cobb.
| johnfelstead | 07-26-2002 08:44 PM |
I love stuff like this thread. I also love the comments about how a driver was so far behind entering a corner yet was so far in front at the next corner, Thats called carrying corner speed, people dont realise what a huge diference that makes to the speed you have by the end of the next straight, it can look like 50BHP but its most likely just good driving.
As to having a boost guage and that limit not being exceded, that's not a good indication of power (or rather torque) available for use under the full torque curve. Mapping these turbo engines in particular to give early high boost levels to fatten the torque curve is an art that trey should be brilliant at. You dont need higher top end power, and trey wont be giving that, if he is any good then he will be giving more torque at the lower end so the total of torque available under the curve will be masively higher, even if max torque/power is identical and limited by the stock flow rates.
Finally, if trey has found a way to make the turbo flow more air, which is entirly posible, you dont gain power from needing higher boost, the better eficiency of the turbo flow passes more air per psi boost, so will produce more power. This is basically how going for a bigger turbo allows you to drop the boost yet have more power, as more air is flowing. Boost is not king, airflow is.
This is just touching the engine side of things very slightly and is ignoring chassis setup, which makes as much diference again. I am not sure where you get the wagon handling better than the saloon from? it doesnt on track, the saloon runs a wider track and has more front end grip in particular.
As to having a boost guage and that limit not being exceded, that's not a good indication of power (or rather torque) available for use under the full torque curve. Mapping these turbo engines in particular to give early high boost levels to fatten the torque curve is an art that trey should be brilliant at. You dont need higher top end power, and trey wont be giving that, if he is any good then he will be giving more torque at the lower end so the total of torque available under the curve will be masively higher, even if max torque/power is identical and limited by the stock flow rates.
Finally, if trey has found a way to make the turbo flow more air, which is entirly posible, you dont gain power from needing higher boost, the better eficiency of the turbo flow passes more air per psi boost, so will produce more power. This is basically how going for a bigger turbo allows you to drop the boost yet have more power, as more air is flowing. Boost is not king, airflow is.
This is just touching the engine side of things very slightly and is ignoring chassis setup, which makes as much diference again. I am not sure where you get the wagon handling better than the saloon from? it doesnt on track, the saloon runs a wider track and has more front end grip in particular.
| alcrudojr #00 | 07-26-2002 08:52 PM |
hi to everyone!
heres the driver's point of view:
i migth not have the expirience as trey building subaru engines but i've done it on other cars such as honda, volkswagen and doing my wrx engine at the moment. i did 12.8 @ 106 mph from my last honda 1.8l vtec engine n/a, no nos and in full trim. it rev up to 9500 rpms and did balancing and blue printing and yes we got a little more power, but it was higly tuned engine producing 210hp @ wheels. I've benn tuning subarus the last year and been learning a lot, and still learning, but at least here on the island the cars that i've tuned are running decently.
when you have to cars around the "same" modifications to get 6 to 8 cars from 60mph to 125mph every one that there's have to be at least a concern about the type of modifications on that car i've drag whit all the other cars on the class and we are more or less one car of each other on the straiths, on braking and turning
you see the big difference between all types of driving. The group is running between 1.15:3 to 1.17.9 on same cars.
On the last race i had the opportunity to go qualify at the same time as this other cari. i got like three cars ahead from him and in a lap he got in my back, as soon as we got on the straight i notice i got like two cars ahead just exiting the turn and when we got to the end of the straight he was like four cars ahead, yes no misshifting, no problem i told myself let get him on the infield, when i got to the braking point i gained like a car and a half but every litle straigth we got he got like a car again. when we got to the last turn before the straigth i did a little bonzai entering the corner and where i used to lift the throtle i didn't i just hit the gas, it was like the perfect exit, i gained like two cars becuse he had a little problem exiting the turn. so i beleaved that was my chance to pass him but when he acelerate it was like seven cars ahead.
So sorry if it looks wining like one of you said but beleive i'm not stupid or new at this sport.
garufi you better think who has the brainstorming i beleive kikin is enough clever to get his own conclusions. i beleived you knew more?
for last, please in respect to matos lets let him rest in peace, he deserves it, the issue is the car not someone.
saludos, migue
heres the driver's point of view:
i migth not have the expirience as trey building subaru engines but i've done it on other cars such as honda, volkswagen and doing my wrx engine at the moment. i did 12.8 @ 106 mph from my last honda 1.8l vtec engine n/a, no nos and in full trim. it rev up to 9500 rpms and did balancing and blue printing and yes we got a little more power, but it was higly tuned engine producing 210hp @ wheels. I've benn tuning subarus the last year and been learning a lot, and still learning, but at least here on the island the cars that i've tuned are running decently.
when you have to cars around the "same" modifications to get 6 to 8 cars from 60mph to 125mph every one that there's have to be at least a concern about the type of modifications on that car i've drag whit all the other cars on the class and we are more or less one car of each other on the straiths, on braking and turning
you see the big difference between all types of driving. The group is running between 1.15:3 to 1.17.9 on same cars.
On the last race i had the opportunity to go qualify at the same time as this other cari. i got like three cars ahead from him and in a lap he got in my back, as soon as we got on the straight i notice i got like two cars ahead just exiting the turn and when we got to the end of the straight he was like four cars ahead, yes no misshifting, no problem i told myself let get him on the infield, when i got to the braking point i gained like a car and a half but every litle straigth we got he got like a car again. when we got to the last turn before the straigth i did a little bonzai entering the corner and where i used to lift the throtle i didn't i just hit the gas, it was like the perfect exit, i gained like two cars becuse he had a little problem exiting the turn. so i beleaved that was my chance to pass him but when he acelerate it was like seven cars ahead.
So sorry if it looks wining like one of you said but beleive i'm not stupid or new at this sport.
garufi you better think who has the brainstorming i beleive kikin is enough clever to get his own conclusions. i beleived you knew more?
for last, please in respect to matos lets let him rest in peace, he deserves it, the issue is the car not someone.
saludos, migue
| Leonardo | 07-31-2002 10:46 AM |
Trey, I just want to know how much is needed to run like that!
I'm thinking of doing a motor build-up and you parts look interesting. but assenbly of an engine is better and would the same work as Trebol but with he exeption of better pistons.
So it would be their setup but with better pistons.
Leo
I'm thinking of doing a motor build-up and you parts look interesting. but assenbly of an engine is better and would the same work as Trebol but with he exeption of better pistons.
So it would be their setup but with better pistons.
Leo
| nativo | 08-19-2002 09:01 PM |
Legality of the motor
Hello everyone:
First congratulations to the Alcrudos on their win this past weekend. I had the opportunity to race the #22 WRX but a mistake in the tire pressures did not allow us to maintain the pace.
On the original subject I would like to add that after the race was over the technical comitee verified the displacement and compression of the first two cars of every category. They used the same equipment used in Tram-Am in the US.
As we all know the WRX has a 1994cc motor and a 8.0:1 CR. If a wrong displacement is entered the CR will not come out correctly (i.e. if the engine is larger than entered the CR will be lower).
The last two cars inspected were the SW from Auto Plaza and our car. Both with a 121 ci, and both with 8.0-8.1 CR.[B]This certifies that both the displacement is a stock 1994cc (121 ci) and that the CR is a stock 8.0:1.[/B]
Also the [B]boost is within the allowed limits by the rules = 14.2 + 10% (spike)[/B]. And in the last race all the turboes were inspected and the [B]factory turbo was found to be the used in our car[/B].
What else is there to inspect??? I don't know but now we are certain that [B]Cobb Tuning did some magic[/B].
The only intention to this post is to settle the score and let everyone know what has been done and found out.
Cheers,
Efrain
First congratulations to the Alcrudos on their win this past weekend. I had the opportunity to race the #22 WRX but a mistake in the tire pressures did not allow us to maintain the pace.
On the original subject I would like to add that after the race was over the technical comitee verified the displacement and compression of the first two cars of every category. They used the same equipment used in Tram-Am in the US.
As we all know the WRX has a 1994cc motor and a 8.0:1 CR. If a wrong displacement is entered the CR will not come out correctly (i.e. if the engine is larger than entered the CR will be lower).
The last two cars inspected were the SW from Auto Plaza and our car. Both with a 121 ci, and both with 8.0-8.1 CR.[B]This certifies that both the displacement is a stock 1994cc (121 ci) and that the CR is a stock 8.0:1.[/B]
Also the [B]boost is within the allowed limits by the rules = 14.2 + 10% (spike)[/B]. And in the last race all the turboes were inspected and the [B]factory turbo was found to be the used in our car[/B].
What else is there to inspect??? I don't know but now we are certain that [B]Cobb Tuning did some magic[/B].
The only intention to this post is to settle the score and let everyone know what has been done and found out.
Cheers,
Efrain
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