| HamFist | 08-30-2006 01:17 PM |
How's your driving technique? (Wet vs. dry drifting white paper.)
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Before we get into discussing technique, please know that above all else, suspension tuning and tire choice are the key to driving your Subie fast in any condition. Dial out the understeer, don't go wild with spring and shock rates, and you can even make RE92's fast. With upgrading my suspension in the right spots, I can even drive on hard packed ice on Kumho summer tires. However, correct tire choice is paramount above even any of this stuff, and I LOVE 4 studded snows.
[b]Prelude to a drift...[/b]
I love driving my scoob in, over, around, or through, just about anything. Puddles, snowbanks, jumping train tracks, ice drifting--this car is fun in anything BUT a straight line. I never complained once when I broke second gear. Not once did I whine like an incessantly clueless n00b about "How did that happen? It was supposed to be invincible! WAAAAAAHHHH!!!!" I know how it happened--by beating the car mercilessly just to see how it would handle it. In the middle of that, I was trying to dial out inefficiencies in the handling and did a damn good job of it with cheap parts, too! The entire time, I was studying the car to see what would happen. Drifting is fun, but not in a D1GP fashion in this car. How to use a SUBARU's drift character to go faster was part of my learning experience.
I've modded the suspension, engine, brakes, and driven in:
-snow
-ice
-dirt
-wet, sticky dirt
-wet, loost dirt
-dry, loose dirt
-dry, gravelly dirt
-dry pavement
-cold pavement
-warm pavement
-wet pavement
On:
-kumho 712 tires
-studded hankook W404's.
Thankfully, since this isn't my daily driver, I could pay attention to the little things and make mental notes of what happened. The only thing I have yet to try is true dirt tires to see how they reacted. Drifting on ice with studded snows was a fantastic experience. I loved every second of it and can't wait to do it again. I never had to push excessive speed in the form of triple digit numbers. But by pushing a few boundaries here and there, I wanted to see just how the car would react with different chassis tuning parts.
[b]The Subaru Understeer-of-Death and what it affects.[/b]
Any of you that have pushed your scoob know about the dreaded understeer. This must be tuned to a minimum before you can do any of this. On a stock suspension, none of these ideas worked. When understeer happens, you also lose all control of steering. Mash the brakes while understeering, and it only gets worse as you transfer weight to the front end. Hit the gas, and you just spin the tires perilously aware that you're going straight despite any effort to change direction. I HAD to modify the stock suspension to get rid of it. There was no way around it. No pixie dust or love postion #9 would make it magically disappear. I had to tune the suspension, but knew it wasn't a matter of "lowering it and putting on rims" to make it go away. I hate form over function. If I look stock and kick your understeering, scraping, big-rimmed ass into oblivion, then I did a better job. You wouldn't admit it on the internet or to your buddies, either.
It was strange at first how the exact same car could handle differently in the wet vs. the dry on pavement. Using the same tires--Kumho 712's--I would have to modify my driving line in the wet for a fast drift. It carried over into how the car acted on dirt and ice, too. I would drive into the corner slightly too fast only enough to make the tires give way. Steer into the turn just a little TOO much to make the chassis get sideways. A little practice made traction breakaway pretty predictable. A subie's weight distribution of 52F/48R makes the car a bit duller in steering response. The weight distribution seem's good to me because of how well the car pivots when the tires get loose. Learning the breakaway point of the tires, and coupling it with the right steering angle in the turn made sliding (or not) and getting to the exit faster much easier. The pivot point, where the car feels like the front and rear are sliding evenly or at different speeds, was acutally pretty gentle. I could apex early or late, flick the wheel into the turn a little harder and mash the gas, and a dorifftooo we will goooo! Heck, you could skip the drift all together and still take a faster driving line. Being able to do either with remarkable ease was very impressive. How well this chassis pivots using the sterring and gas is what makes it so beautiful. The car couldn't pivot well with the factory amount of understeer, though. It just wasn't going to happen. After I modded the suspension with the listed parts, I fell in love all over again. Once in the drift, I could point the car wherever I wanted, modulate the gas, and it would do whatever I asked. In fact, it seemed hard to make it mess up.
This is also where I much prefer an n/a or supercharged powerband vs. a turbo. The only thing I had to keep spinning was the tires, not a turbine. Power was far more consistent and easily modulated. While total speed is debateable, it was a far more controllable to drive to me.
[b]Parts[/b]
Getting to that beautiful balancing point took some mechanical know-how. Trying the above mentioned driving technique is VERY ill advised on a stock vehicle, IMO. The Subaru "understeer-of-death" totally sucks ass. Most of my study centered around eliminating that feeling and improving my driving lines. The stock vehicle is poorly set up for fast driving. You can drive it fast, but it isn't comfortable while doing it. The car stock doesn't feel like it's asking for more. Modified with the right suspension parts, it's like its bored waiting on you to do more. In short, here's the parts that helped the most in dialing out understeer and making the car more comfortable to drive fast:
1. Good tires w/ slightly front biased air pressure.
2. solid swaybar end-links (GT-Spec)
3. SLIGHTLY thicker rear anti-sway bar (20mm STI rear and stock 19mm front. No radical differences in sizes were needed, but they help in certain conditions. I wanted driveability instead of twitchiness, so I went with this combo more out of choice than some necessity for a specific kind of racing.)
4. strut bars (eliminating some of that GC chassis flex was a very good thing.)
5. GT-Spec anti-lift kit. Every car should have an ALK. It should come from the factory with one. I did not successfully dial out 75% of my understeer problems until I put this in and got a good alignment.
I installed new springs and struts, too. However, these parts did nothing to help understeer and improve balance of the car. The above listed parts dialed out almost all of the understeer for pretty moderate cash ($1000). I SOOO wanted something that FELT good, before I would try to push it to be fast. With all that damn understeer, it felt dangerous to go fast. With it gone, I feel comfy going faster. It even drifts faster over ice, dirt, and wet pavement. I don't know how many of you n00blets I've seen post about curb damage from understeer and excessive speed. (BTW, we're not supposed to push it that fast on the street anyway, REMEMBER??????) Where I truely felt comfortable in the chassis was where I could drive over a surface that used to upset the car, and it would now go over that same surface without a twitch. To drive home the point, I could induce wheelspin over rough pavement that was totally dry before the above mods. Now, it feels more surefooted over just about anything. Solid suspension mounts and new bushings will be done while I have the car apart. I really fell in love with the car all over again once I could drive it confidently and not be afraid of the terrain. I did that by modding the right stuff and not worrying about "drop", "bling", and "slicks".
[b]Driving lines and Wet vs. dry drifting:[/b]
This is constantly a debate among fast, finnicky cars and drivers. One consensus is that "slow in/fast out" is generally the best way to go in the dry. I agree. I prefer anything but dry pavement, truthfully. It's just boring. Wet roads/dirt/ice are a little different. As a rule of thumb, wider and slower driving lines are required. No matter what, HIT THE BRAKES BEFORE THE TURN! Braking and downshifting in the corner means you hit it too fast and you're likely panicking trying to correct it. When you first enter the turn correctly, you can exit it a lot easier. I'll explain the Scandanavian Flick next and then jump back to dry pavement, explaining a "dry flick".
I found wet/dirt/icy conditions shared a lot of the same driving techniques. Chiefly, it was pitching the car sideways on corner entry with what is called a Scandanavian Flick. It's my favorite cornering maneuver of all time. The idea is to upset the traction and induce a drift. This DOES NOT WORK ON DRY PAVEMENT! Dry pavement requires a different technique explained later. When you enter a turn, hit the brakes and flick the wheel about 1/8th-1/4 turn to the outside of the turn. Do it fast and smooth, don't jerk the wheel back and forth TOO quick or you'll **** it up. Let off the brake and go back the other way. This does a few things. You're shifting weight from back-to-front-to-back again, more or less. The idea is to have the nose pointed up and weight shifted to the back when you are coming out of the turn. You won't be understeering, but the front will feel loose. This is pretty normal. You'll feel the front end scrub a bit and then the rear will follow. Once the chassis is dialed in, initial understeer becomes part of the pivoting motion of a slide. What the Scandanavian Flick does also is cheat just a little to give you more room to drive the car out of the turn. If you do it right and you're still sliding out of the turn, you can saw at the wheel a bit and still point the car where you want. That's while you still have your foot on the gas.
To me, the advantage of AWD is being able to get on the gas earlier in the apex and using your traction BETTER. Better tires and suspension will give you MORE traction, but AWD better uses the traction and power allowing more throttle, brake, and steering control. Just remember that your tires and suspension mean more than the AWD, no matter how good the AWD is in whatever car you may drive.
It would take a while to explain early/late apexing depending on the corner taken. I'm comparing more slick vs. dry conditions. In the dry, you're always more confident. Take that confidence into the wet, and you're asking for trouble. I found that in the wet, I was going slower, and playing more with the behavior of the car. I could induce wheelspin and an exit drift in the wet pretty easily by just stomping the gas in second gear. That said, I always played with going wide vs. narrow on corner entry. It seems like a better line or faster corner speed depends more on how the turn ENDS and less on how it BEGINS. Get your braking and downshifting done before getting into the corner, and the rest of your time is spent steering and laying down the throttle. I also found I could saw at the wheel a bit and re-direct the car at the traction limit. THAT was a beautiful thing. It only happened after I modded the suspension correctly, though. The car didn't feel out of control. That was, again, AFTER I was done with the above mentioned mods.
What about dry flicking? I call it the bastard cousin of the Scandanavian Flick and worked pretty well for me in dry conditions. I could induce a wheel spinning drift with it, but drifting wasn't the point. I found it to be a slightly faster way through some corners. Instead of flicking the wheel to the outside, I flicked it inside that same 1/8-1/4 turn but cut the wheel over faster than in the wet. It would scrub up front just a touch, but there was just enough slide in the rear where it would come out and I could modulate the throttle to control cornering speed. The dry flick worked best for me on transitional cornering, chicanes, and slaloms. While keeping my foot relatively planted, I learned it would behave like "flick, slide, and grab traction". The "flick" was to induce the slide. The momentary "slide" was to point the car to the exit. When in that momentary slide, countersteer and lift SLIGHTLY on the gas and stomp it again. When the steering wheel is pointed where you want it and you get back on the gas is when the "grab" comes. The "grab" was the tires gripping again after scrubbing a bit of speed and pointing the car back into a straight line. In those transitional corners, it was much faster than hitting the brakes all the time and shifting the weight back and forth that was further upsetting the chassis.
[b]Temperature changes[/b]
I can't explain the different dynamics of temperature change and rubber compounds. What I can say is that my Kumho's are a hard compound tire and the 404 Hankook's are very soft. The kumho's when cold turn into hockey pucks. Any extreme driving is impossible in cold weather on these tires. Below about 40 degrees, these things feel like death-on-a-roll. On cold, dry pavement they don't feel sticky at all. I think they work on snow mostly because there is something to grab. The tread doesn't wrinkle like a sneaker.
Studded snows are a blast in icey/snowy conditions. They suck in the heat because they weren't designed for it (duh. ;)) Read the wet/dirt/ice driving section for tips there.
[b]Misc.[/b]
Something else to know about saving your driveline: shifting while cornering hard either up OR down causes more driveline shock. It also upsets the chassis and could induce a spin. While it may be fun (for me;)) to downshift mid corner, stomp the gas, and induce a 4 wheel drift, it's very bad on the driveline. If your car also understeers, you'll plow like mad. Once these mods were done, I could carry more speed on the real road. Corner entry, mid, and exit were all faster. I never had to downshift more than ONE gear for most corners. If it was a 90 degree turn after a long straight, or a switch-back, I would drop two gears at most. Most corners I could take in 2nd and 3rd. NOT getting into 1st gear and using the torque the motor made helped my driveline survive a lot longer, IMO. The little boxer's mighty torque was great for corners like this. I never had to keep things spun high. Again, I have no turbo to worry about. A little suspension tuning brings this car into its own zone. I almost miss having some form of boost or power enhancement. The chassis is dialed in well enough to make the car boring, unless I choose to misbehave :devil: ;).
[b]Prelude to a drift...[/b]
I love driving my scoob in, over, around, or through, just about anything. Puddles, snowbanks, jumping train tracks, ice drifting--this car is fun in anything BUT a straight line. I never complained once when I broke second gear. Not once did I whine like an incessantly clueless n00b about "How did that happen? It was supposed to be invincible! WAAAAAAHHHH!!!!" I know how it happened--by beating the car mercilessly just to see how it would handle it. In the middle of that, I was trying to dial out inefficiencies in the handling and did a damn good job of it with cheap parts, too! The entire time, I was studying the car to see what would happen. Drifting is fun, but not in a D1GP fashion in this car. How to use a SUBARU's drift character to go faster was part of my learning experience.
I've modded the suspension, engine, brakes, and driven in:
-snow
-ice
-dirt
-wet, sticky dirt
-wet, loost dirt
-dry, loose dirt
-dry, gravelly dirt
-dry pavement
-cold pavement
-warm pavement
-wet pavement
On:
-kumho 712 tires
-studded hankook W404's.
Thankfully, since this isn't my daily driver, I could pay attention to the little things and make mental notes of what happened. The only thing I have yet to try is true dirt tires to see how they reacted. Drifting on ice with studded snows was a fantastic experience. I loved every second of it and can't wait to do it again. I never had to push excessive speed in the form of triple digit numbers. But by pushing a few boundaries here and there, I wanted to see just how the car would react with different chassis tuning parts.
[b]The Subaru Understeer-of-Death and what it affects.[/b]
Any of you that have pushed your scoob know about the dreaded understeer. This must be tuned to a minimum before you can do any of this. On a stock suspension, none of these ideas worked. When understeer happens, you also lose all control of steering. Mash the brakes while understeering, and it only gets worse as you transfer weight to the front end. Hit the gas, and you just spin the tires perilously aware that you're going straight despite any effort to change direction. I HAD to modify the stock suspension to get rid of it. There was no way around it. No pixie dust or love postion #9 would make it magically disappear. I had to tune the suspension, but knew it wasn't a matter of "lowering it and putting on rims" to make it go away. I hate form over function. If I look stock and kick your understeering, scraping, big-rimmed ass into oblivion, then I did a better job. You wouldn't admit it on the internet or to your buddies, either.
It was strange at first how the exact same car could handle differently in the wet vs. the dry on pavement. Using the same tires--Kumho 712's--I would have to modify my driving line in the wet for a fast drift. It carried over into how the car acted on dirt and ice, too. I would drive into the corner slightly too fast only enough to make the tires give way. Steer into the turn just a little TOO much to make the chassis get sideways. A little practice made traction breakaway pretty predictable. A subie's weight distribution of 52F/48R makes the car a bit duller in steering response. The weight distribution seem's good to me because of how well the car pivots when the tires get loose. Learning the breakaway point of the tires, and coupling it with the right steering angle in the turn made sliding (or not) and getting to the exit faster much easier. The pivot point, where the car feels like the front and rear are sliding evenly or at different speeds, was acutally pretty gentle. I could apex early or late, flick the wheel into the turn a little harder and mash the gas, and a dorifftooo we will goooo! Heck, you could skip the drift all together and still take a faster driving line. Being able to do either with remarkable ease was very impressive. How well this chassis pivots using the sterring and gas is what makes it so beautiful. The car couldn't pivot well with the factory amount of understeer, though. It just wasn't going to happen. After I modded the suspension with the listed parts, I fell in love all over again. Once in the drift, I could point the car wherever I wanted, modulate the gas, and it would do whatever I asked. In fact, it seemed hard to make it mess up.
This is also where I much prefer an n/a or supercharged powerband vs. a turbo. The only thing I had to keep spinning was the tires, not a turbine. Power was far more consistent and easily modulated. While total speed is debateable, it was a far more controllable to drive to me.
[b]Parts[/b]
Getting to that beautiful balancing point took some mechanical know-how. Trying the above mentioned driving technique is VERY ill advised on a stock vehicle, IMO. The Subaru "understeer-of-death" totally sucks ass. Most of my study centered around eliminating that feeling and improving my driving lines. The stock vehicle is poorly set up for fast driving. You can drive it fast, but it isn't comfortable while doing it. The car stock doesn't feel like it's asking for more. Modified with the right suspension parts, it's like its bored waiting on you to do more. In short, here's the parts that helped the most in dialing out understeer and making the car more comfortable to drive fast:
1. Good tires w/ slightly front biased air pressure.
2. solid swaybar end-links (GT-Spec)
3. SLIGHTLY thicker rear anti-sway bar (20mm STI rear and stock 19mm front. No radical differences in sizes were needed, but they help in certain conditions. I wanted driveability instead of twitchiness, so I went with this combo more out of choice than some necessity for a specific kind of racing.)
4. strut bars (eliminating some of that GC chassis flex was a very good thing.)
5. GT-Spec anti-lift kit. Every car should have an ALK. It should come from the factory with one. I did not successfully dial out 75% of my understeer problems until I put this in and got a good alignment.
I installed new springs and struts, too. However, these parts did nothing to help understeer and improve balance of the car. The above listed parts dialed out almost all of the understeer for pretty moderate cash ($1000). I SOOO wanted something that FELT good, before I would try to push it to be fast. With all that damn understeer, it felt dangerous to go fast. With it gone, I feel comfy going faster. It even drifts faster over ice, dirt, and wet pavement. I don't know how many of you n00blets I've seen post about curb damage from understeer and excessive speed. (BTW, we're not supposed to push it that fast on the street anyway, REMEMBER??????) Where I truely felt comfortable in the chassis was where I could drive over a surface that used to upset the car, and it would now go over that same surface without a twitch. To drive home the point, I could induce wheelspin over rough pavement that was totally dry before the above mods. Now, it feels more surefooted over just about anything. Solid suspension mounts and new bushings will be done while I have the car apart. I really fell in love with the car all over again once I could drive it confidently and not be afraid of the terrain. I did that by modding the right stuff and not worrying about "drop", "bling", and "slicks".
[b]Driving lines and Wet vs. dry drifting:[/b]
This is constantly a debate among fast, finnicky cars and drivers. One consensus is that "slow in/fast out" is generally the best way to go in the dry. I agree. I prefer anything but dry pavement, truthfully. It's just boring. Wet roads/dirt/ice are a little different. As a rule of thumb, wider and slower driving lines are required. No matter what, HIT THE BRAKES BEFORE THE TURN! Braking and downshifting in the corner means you hit it too fast and you're likely panicking trying to correct it. When you first enter the turn correctly, you can exit it a lot easier. I'll explain the Scandanavian Flick next and then jump back to dry pavement, explaining a "dry flick".
I found wet/dirt/icy conditions shared a lot of the same driving techniques. Chiefly, it was pitching the car sideways on corner entry with what is called a Scandanavian Flick. It's my favorite cornering maneuver of all time. The idea is to upset the traction and induce a drift. This DOES NOT WORK ON DRY PAVEMENT! Dry pavement requires a different technique explained later. When you enter a turn, hit the brakes and flick the wheel about 1/8th-1/4 turn to the outside of the turn. Do it fast and smooth, don't jerk the wheel back and forth TOO quick or you'll **** it up. Let off the brake and go back the other way. This does a few things. You're shifting weight from back-to-front-to-back again, more or less. The idea is to have the nose pointed up and weight shifted to the back when you are coming out of the turn. You won't be understeering, but the front will feel loose. This is pretty normal. You'll feel the front end scrub a bit and then the rear will follow. Once the chassis is dialed in, initial understeer becomes part of the pivoting motion of a slide. What the Scandanavian Flick does also is cheat just a little to give you more room to drive the car out of the turn. If you do it right and you're still sliding out of the turn, you can saw at the wheel a bit and still point the car where you want. That's while you still have your foot on the gas.
To me, the advantage of AWD is being able to get on the gas earlier in the apex and using your traction BETTER. Better tires and suspension will give you MORE traction, but AWD better uses the traction and power allowing more throttle, brake, and steering control. Just remember that your tires and suspension mean more than the AWD, no matter how good the AWD is in whatever car you may drive.
It would take a while to explain early/late apexing depending on the corner taken. I'm comparing more slick vs. dry conditions. In the dry, you're always more confident. Take that confidence into the wet, and you're asking for trouble. I found that in the wet, I was going slower, and playing more with the behavior of the car. I could induce wheelspin and an exit drift in the wet pretty easily by just stomping the gas in second gear. That said, I always played with going wide vs. narrow on corner entry. It seems like a better line or faster corner speed depends more on how the turn ENDS and less on how it BEGINS. Get your braking and downshifting done before getting into the corner, and the rest of your time is spent steering and laying down the throttle. I also found I could saw at the wheel a bit and re-direct the car at the traction limit. THAT was a beautiful thing. It only happened after I modded the suspension correctly, though. The car didn't feel out of control. That was, again, AFTER I was done with the above mentioned mods.
What about dry flicking? I call it the bastard cousin of the Scandanavian Flick and worked pretty well for me in dry conditions. I could induce a wheel spinning drift with it, but drifting wasn't the point. I found it to be a slightly faster way through some corners. Instead of flicking the wheel to the outside, I flicked it inside that same 1/8-1/4 turn but cut the wheel over faster than in the wet. It would scrub up front just a touch, but there was just enough slide in the rear where it would come out and I could modulate the throttle to control cornering speed. The dry flick worked best for me on transitional cornering, chicanes, and slaloms. While keeping my foot relatively planted, I learned it would behave like "flick, slide, and grab traction". The "flick" was to induce the slide. The momentary "slide" was to point the car to the exit. When in that momentary slide, countersteer and lift SLIGHTLY on the gas and stomp it again. When the steering wheel is pointed where you want it and you get back on the gas is when the "grab" comes. The "grab" was the tires gripping again after scrubbing a bit of speed and pointing the car back into a straight line. In those transitional corners, it was much faster than hitting the brakes all the time and shifting the weight back and forth that was further upsetting the chassis.
[b]Temperature changes[/b]
I can't explain the different dynamics of temperature change and rubber compounds. What I can say is that my Kumho's are a hard compound tire and the 404 Hankook's are very soft. The kumho's when cold turn into hockey pucks. Any extreme driving is impossible in cold weather on these tires. Below about 40 degrees, these things feel like death-on-a-roll. On cold, dry pavement they don't feel sticky at all. I think they work on snow mostly because there is something to grab. The tread doesn't wrinkle like a sneaker.
Studded snows are a blast in icey/snowy conditions. They suck in the heat because they weren't designed for it (duh. ;)) Read the wet/dirt/ice driving section for tips there.
[b]Misc.[/b]
Something else to know about saving your driveline: shifting while cornering hard either up OR down causes more driveline shock. It also upsets the chassis and could induce a spin. While it may be fun (for me;)) to downshift mid corner, stomp the gas, and induce a 4 wheel drift, it's very bad on the driveline. If your car also understeers, you'll plow like mad. Once these mods were done, I could carry more speed on the real road. Corner entry, mid, and exit were all faster. I never had to downshift more than ONE gear for most corners. If it was a 90 degree turn after a long straight, or a switch-back, I would drop two gears at most. Most corners I could take in 2nd and 3rd. NOT getting into 1st gear and using the torque the motor made helped my driveline survive a lot longer, IMO. The little boxer's mighty torque was great for corners like this. I never had to keep things spun high. Again, I have no turbo to worry about. A little suspension tuning brings this car into its own zone. I almost miss having some form of boost or power enhancement. The chassis is dialed in well enough to make the car boring, unless I choose to misbehave :devil: ;).
| SWortham | 08-30-2006 01:39 PM |
As for driving style, I'm still new to racing the STI but trailbraking is really helping me. With my car completely stock I have to do something about that understeer as a driver. And trailbraking is especially beneficial for understeering cars. So what I try to do is accelerate up to the last instant, immediately hit the brakes hard, ease off, but stay on the brakes enough in the corner to induce just a very small amount of slide in the rear and then get on the gas again when I'm going slow enough to hit the apex. It's tough to do right around every corner but I'm getting better at it. Of course I'm not really drifting the car. But I'm referring to autocrossing where drifting is usually not a good thing on a parking lot surface.
| BlueDominion | 08-30-2006 03:39 PM |
Great article. More experienced drivers will have to weigh in on how accurate it is, but very well written. Good job!
I vote for sticky!
I vote for sticky!
| HamFist | 08-30-2006 03:57 PM |
Done. I'll edit a few things here and there, but that's the best way I can sum up tuning out understeer and learning techniques to drive my car faster.
A great video, that I can't find, is one of a Russian guy driving his Legacy on an ice course. It's an in-car view and you can see how well he's sawing at the wheel going through turns. He's very smooth and fluid. It's not like driving a go-kart at all. That's exactly how my car behaves AND how I drive fast in the ice/snow/dirt. Does anyone have a link?
A great video, that I can't find, is one of a Russian guy driving his Legacy on an ice course. It's an in-car view and you can see how well he's sawing at the wheel going through turns. He's very smooth and fluid. It's not like driving a go-kart at all. That's exactly how my car behaves AND how I drive fast in the ice/snow/dirt. Does anyone have a link?
| problemcat13 | 08-30-2006 04:02 PM |
Undoubtably, someone will chime in with "this sucks balls in X type of racing." However, I don't care, it's nice to read driving techniques form someone who TRULY enjoys driving a suby!!!
Hamfist, we're often on the same page. I know my NA Forester isn't as quick as your GC8 body, but with the soft suspension, it seems easy to get a drift rather than understeer, and I have LOTS of fun driving this dork-mobile. The only thing I've found is that it will SCARY :eek: understeer on wet concrete (asphalt is fine) rather than drift well. I've scared myself a couple of times!
Thanks for the entertaining write-up!!! You get a happy banana! :banana:
Hamfist, we're often on the same page. I know my NA Forester isn't as quick as your GC8 body, but with the soft suspension, it seems easy to get a drift rather than understeer, and I have LOTS of fun driving this dork-mobile. The only thing I've found is that it will SCARY :eek: understeer on wet concrete (asphalt is fine) rather than drift well. I've scared myself a couple of times!
Thanks for the entertaining write-up!!! You get a happy banana! :banana:
| MachinesWRX | 08-30-2006 04:25 PM |
good write up my friend;)
| Howl | 08-30-2006 04:33 PM |
Great write-up. I'm looking at making another round of adjustments to my suspension and this will help. Most of the suspension advice I see on this board would make my car handle great on a track or autoX course, but it's not going to help me on the gravel and snow covered roads where I like to drive. Real world conditions FTW.
Regarding the "flick". Every winter I make a point of practicing manoeuvres like the flick in an empty snowy parking lot. I've sort of got the hang of the flick, but never had call to use it on the road . . . until one day, last fall, during a light rain, I came over the crest of a small hill on a narrow gravel road only to find that the road surface on the downhill side was exposed clay (very slippery when wet) and that the road took a 90 degree left at the bottom of the hill (yes, I know, I shouldn't have been going that fast). Threshold braking wasn't going to get me slowed down enough to turn, so I had a choice. Go straight into a grassy field and hope there were no ditches, rocks or logs hidden in the tall grass; or try the flick. Almost instinctively I twitched the wheel right then left and to my surprise the car rotated perfectly and I made to corner with lots of room to spare.
Practicing "extreme" manoeuvres in an empty parking lot may seem frivolous and dangerous to some, but it really does make you a better driver in real world conditions.
Regarding the "flick". Every winter I make a point of practicing manoeuvres like the flick in an empty snowy parking lot. I've sort of got the hang of the flick, but never had call to use it on the road . . . until one day, last fall, during a light rain, I came over the crest of a small hill on a narrow gravel road only to find that the road surface on the downhill side was exposed clay (very slippery when wet) and that the road took a 90 degree left at the bottom of the hill (yes, I know, I shouldn't have been going that fast). Threshold braking wasn't going to get me slowed down enough to turn, so I had a choice. Go straight into a grassy field and hope there were no ditches, rocks or logs hidden in the tall grass; or try the flick. Almost instinctively I twitched the wheel right then left and to my surprise the car rotated perfectly and I made to corner with lots of room to spare.
Practicing "extreme" manoeuvres in an empty parking lot may seem frivolous and dangerous to some, but it really does make you a better driver in real world conditions.
| HamFist | 08-30-2006 05:01 PM |
I totally agree that these are extreme driving maneuvers. Minding the speed limit and the conditions, and the car drives quite normally. I call that "granny mode". The car does great of we all mind the speed limit in adverse conditions. However if I slipped now and then, like taking a turn too quick in the snow (even 20-25mph.) the handling would change when the car went into a drift, even unintentionally. I found these techniques to be useful, but they took some practice. It was hard to drive the car instinctually and get around the understeer. I couldn't outdrive that damn understeer, and tuned on the chassis until I got rid of it. It didn't seem to react nicely if I pushed things or got into trouble before I modded the suspension. The understeer nearly got me killed in the snow. Dialing that out, with the right tires, everything changed.
Let's say you have bad tires in the snow or ice. Your friction coefficient is so low, the car is going to feel like it's all over the place and you're just on an AWD rollerskate. How do you drive an AWD rollerskate? Turn it into an AWD sneaker. Understeer makes driveability worse, on top of possibly having bad tires for the conditions. With the mentioned mods, my car feels safer even in the snow, in addition to being faster over just about anything. It's a doubled-up benefit. I know these parts have been listed before as mods, but not as a combination for a specific purpose: they actually made the car feel safer to drive AND faster, to me. I had to push some things a bit just to see how the car would handle in snow and ice and it was the most beautiful driving experience I'd ever had. The car felt hard to upset or even make it screw up unless speed was too excessive. I could take my car, with these mods and studded snows, and corner sharply in the snow and ice at 35-40mph. Some folks do that speed anyway, completely ignoring the conditions and wreck when they have to perform an evasive maneuver--usually from bad tires and that damn understeer (Can you tell I hate that damn understeer, yet?). So, I posted a parts combo and a review of them in adverse driving conditions covering how things reacted. Simple enough.
Nothing replaces slowing down, but I think these cars can even be dangerous at low speeds with all that understeer. Let's say a corner goes off-camber suddenly in the snow. However, it's pretty white out there. You can feel the car going downhill at a funky slant for a sec. The problem is, you're only doing abuot 15-20mph and the car still slides down that embankment. Tires are one cause, and the understeer means you lose all your steering in that unintended slide. I hated feeling that unconfident in a car that was supposed to be doing well in these kinds of conditions. Again, once I dialed out those inefficiencies in the handling, not only did the car feel more sure footed, it was even more fun to drive in adverse conditions.
Let's say you have bad tires in the snow or ice. Your friction coefficient is so low, the car is going to feel like it's all over the place and you're just on an AWD rollerskate. How do you drive an AWD rollerskate? Turn it into an AWD sneaker. Understeer makes driveability worse, on top of possibly having bad tires for the conditions. With the mentioned mods, my car feels safer even in the snow, in addition to being faster over just about anything. It's a doubled-up benefit. I know these parts have been listed before as mods, but not as a combination for a specific purpose: they actually made the car feel safer to drive AND faster, to me. I had to push some things a bit just to see how the car would handle in snow and ice and it was the most beautiful driving experience I'd ever had. The car felt hard to upset or even make it screw up unless speed was too excessive. I could take my car, with these mods and studded snows, and corner sharply in the snow and ice at 35-40mph. Some folks do that speed anyway, completely ignoring the conditions and wreck when they have to perform an evasive maneuver--usually from bad tires and that damn understeer (Can you tell I hate that damn understeer, yet?). So, I posted a parts combo and a review of them in adverse driving conditions covering how things reacted. Simple enough.
Nothing replaces slowing down, but I think these cars can even be dangerous at low speeds with all that understeer. Let's say a corner goes off-camber suddenly in the snow. However, it's pretty white out there. You can feel the car going downhill at a funky slant for a sec. The problem is, you're only doing abuot 15-20mph and the car still slides down that embankment. Tires are one cause, and the understeer means you lose all your steering in that unintended slide. I hated feeling that unconfident in a car that was supposed to be doing well in these kinds of conditions. Again, once I dialed out those inefficiencies in the handling, not only did the car feel more sure footed, it was even more fun to drive in adverse conditions.
| leecea | 08-30-2006 05:17 PM |
Maybe I'm being paranoid, but this thread is worrying me a bit because I can't tell what is being suggested as good public road driving versus rallyx or something.
For example, "Minding the speed limit and the conditions" = Granny mode :confused:
Or, how about a slightly different version of the scenario... "during a light rain, I came over the crest of a small hill on a narrow gravel road only to find a young child walking their dog..." - maybe not such a cool ending that time.
OK, I guess I'm no fun.
For example, "Minding the speed limit and the conditions" = Granny mode :confused:
Or, how about a slightly different version of the scenario... "during a light rain, I came over the crest of a small hill on a narrow gravel road only to find a young child walking their dog..." - maybe not such a cool ending that time.
OK, I guess I'm no fun.
| SWortham | 08-30-2006 05:25 PM |
I'd love to try out the dry "flick" around certain corners in an autocross course and see how it impacts my time. Perhaps I'll get a chance to practice it some time soon.
| subber | 08-30-2006 05:40 PM |
This sounds really good and a lot of interesting info is being shared but TTIWWOV. :)
| makofoto | 08-30-2006 11:08 PM |
Team Blew ... did anyone host the video clip of John doing the Flick at our AX a while back ...
| HamFist | 08-31-2006 09:30 AM |
I was more making notes than anything else. Some of this should help with snow/dirt/wet driving for different kinds of autoX and Rally. I'd like to compare notes with folks that rally more consistently than I do, too. I'm not advocating driving like this everywhere you go in adverse conditions.
Also, I see plenty of n00bs wondering "Can my car have t3h mad doriftoos?" My short answer is NO! But, I know they're going to try it anyway, even if they get on loose or complicated surfaces to do it. So, here's how to correctly do it, IMHO. I cringe every time I see someone think of drifting these cars on dry pavement in that glorified D1GP fashion. You CAN drift your car, just not in that showy, smoky fashion. It's still a rally-car in its heart. I think some of this stuff has been covered before but didn't come up on a search. So, I felt like writing it, and this is how it came out ;). I figured there was no harm in the act of writing it up. It's not like I did this in a schoolzone, and the techniques work :lol:. The Scandanavian Flick has been covered, but I've tried to explain that dry flick for a while. I think it came out right this time ;).
Also, I see plenty of n00bs wondering "Can my car have t3h mad doriftoos?" My short answer is NO! But, I know they're going to try it anyway, even if they get on loose or complicated surfaces to do it. So, here's how to correctly do it, IMHO. I cringe every time I see someone think of drifting these cars on dry pavement in that glorified D1GP fashion. You CAN drift your car, just not in that showy, smoky fashion. It's still a rally-car in its heart. I think some of this stuff has been covered before but didn't come up on a search. So, I felt like writing it, and this is how it came out ;). I figured there was no harm in the act of writing it up. It's not like I did this in a schoolzone, and the techniques work :lol:. The Scandanavian Flick has been covered, but I've tried to explain that dry flick for a while. I think it came out right this time ;).
| HamFist | 08-31-2006 10:32 AM |
I edited the "granny mode" post ;).
| RB5 Clone | 08-31-2006 11:11 AM |
some good info packed into a VERY long original post. there are a few garbled places, but all in all not bad.
trouble is, there are a number of traps easy to fall into here:
1--don't expect to learn these types of driving technique from just one loooong text post. it takes lots of practice with a skilled copilot talking you thru the new, non-instinctive maneuvers. while learning it's easy to hit things, break the car, or go off the road (often all 3 at once), so you need to learn in a controlled environment. For some strange reason, this last fact is not obvious to many ppl.
2--OP makes a common mistake of equating performance driving techniques with advanced car setup. Sorry to say, but just bolting new stuff on your car will NOT automatically make it do what you want! a skilled driver can make even the most lowly rental Cobalt sheetbox dance like you wouldn't believe.
I'm a longtime rally racer and an instructor at Team O'Neil. We've had students show up with very dialed-in cars who can't drive them to save themselves. Low-grip surfaces only make this more evident. In fact, getting your car set up like the OP is talking about makes the car much LESS forgiving of iffy driving inputs. sometimes we've had to move a student from their caged/track-prepped WRX into one of the beater 2.2 Impreza school cars before they can learn to stay on the road. the more forgiving car is MUCH easier to learn new techniques with.
so...careful what you wish for.
bottom line: develop the "driver software" before wasting money on mods. this holds true whether you want fast road driving, autoX, rallyX, track, rally or whatever.
good dialog, tho.
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing/Team O'Neil
trouble is, there are a number of traps easy to fall into here:
1--don't expect to learn these types of driving technique from just one loooong text post. it takes lots of practice with a skilled copilot talking you thru the new, non-instinctive maneuvers. while learning it's easy to hit things, break the car, or go off the road (often all 3 at once), so you need to learn in a controlled environment. For some strange reason, this last fact is not obvious to many ppl.
2--OP makes a common mistake of equating performance driving techniques with advanced car setup. Sorry to say, but just bolting new stuff on your car will NOT automatically make it do what you want! a skilled driver can make even the most lowly rental Cobalt sheetbox dance like you wouldn't believe.
I'm a longtime rally racer and an instructor at Team O'Neil. We've had students show up with very dialed-in cars who can't drive them to save themselves. Low-grip surfaces only make this more evident. In fact, getting your car set up like the OP is talking about makes the car much LESS forgiving of iffy driving inputs. sometimes we've had to move a student from their caged/track-prepped WRX into one of the beater 2.2 Impreza school cars before they can learn to stay on the road. the more forgiving car is MUCH easier to learn new techniques with.
so...careful what you wish for.
bottom line: develop the "driver software" before wasting money on mods. this holds true whether you want fast road driving, autoX, rallyX, track, rally or whatever.
good dialog, tho.
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing/Team O'Neil
| HamFist | 08-31-2006 12:54 PM |
Points well heeded, Dave. Honestly, I couldn't drive the car in an advanced fashion with all that understeer. It was impossible for me and I have had a good deal of practice (not on a professional racing level, but it's something I've aspired to be.). I also have personal problems with driving unmodified cars: I can't leave well enough alone :lol:. For me, the more modded the car was, the more easily I could perform advanced techniques at all speeds. Countersteer and flicking is pretty intuitive to me, but it DID take practice. When I mentioned the flicking maneuvers, I could perform them when the car was stock, but not as smooth or fast as with the modded suspension. It was with a wider and slower line then, too. Nothing replaces not speeding too fast for the conditions. I did find a lot of old habits coming back with countersteer and throttle input once I modded the suspension. Where I got into trouble with the stock suspension was that it made me scared of the car with the power increase. Being n/a, there's a lot of torque RIGHT when I dip into the throttle. The response was instantaneous. Having instantaneous torque with an assload of understeer was not ANY fun at all :lol:. Dave, look at my dyno results. That flat torque curve is fun to drive. Look how much is down low, too. Not spooling a turbo is pretty easy by keeping your foot out of it. With my car, I had to literally just be off the gas most of the time when conditions got bad. Traction and steering wasn't even there when I was coasting, and I couldn't use the throttle and steering to "outdrive" the snow. With my mods, it doesn't feel like a "chicken and the egg" driving scenario where one problem just lead to another.
[img]http://www.gt-labs.net/images/minevsstock.jpg[/img]
Just for opinion's sake, I found my setup to be "modded yet still forgiving". I attribute part of this to my conservative swaybar combo. I know there's bigger bars that improve the "pivot" I mentioned earlier. But, those bars are unforgiving at higher speeds where I still like to drive now and then. They also make the car scarier in adverse conditions, IMO. Sticky surfaces and high speeds make me nervous because the car feels more likely to roll in a high G corner. I naturally go a little slower and toss the car around more on slick surfaces.
Say when I'm in a higher speed corner and the car starts to slide a bit, dry or otherwise. I instinctually know to feed a little counter steer and slowly let off the gas or flutter the pedal a touch and let the AWD do the work. It's hard for me to relay knowing how NOT to spin, break the car, or hit anything. Accidents happen, but I'm used to modded cars, wheelspin and oversteer. Writing this was an attempt to relay some of that. I LOVE driving. All the techie stuff I do and working on the car and modding--it's ALL to improve the driving experience.
[img]http://www.gt-labs.net/images/minevsstock.jpg[/img]
Just for opinion's sake, I found my setup to be "modded yet still forgiving". I attribute part of this to my conservative swaybar combo. I know there's bigger bars that improve the "pivot" I mentioned earlier. But, those bars are unforgiving at higher speeds where I still like to drive now and then. They also make the car scarier in adverse conditions, IMO. Sticky surfaces and high speeds make me nervous because the car feels more likely to roll in a high G corner. I naturally go a little slower and toss the car around more on slick surfaces.
Say when I'm in a higher speed corner and the car starts to slide a bit, dry or otherwise. I instinctually know to feed a little counter steer and slowly let off the gas or flutter the pedal a touch and let the AWD do the work. It's hard for me to relay knowing how NOT to spin, break the car, or hit anything. Accidents happen, but I'm used to modded cars, wheelspin and oversteer. Writing this was an attempt to relay some of that. I LOVE driving. All the techie stuff I do and working on the car and modding--it's ALL to improve the driving experience.
| Kostamojen | 08-31-2006 01:14 PM |
Hamfist: You would freak out if you drove my car
| r0nzar | 08-31-2006 01:26 PM |
[QUOTE=problemcat13;15077070]Undoubtably, someone will chime in with "this sucks balls in X type of racing." [/QUOTE]
it does. this technique sucks balls in street racing in a school zone. you need a turbo to win those pinks bro!
it does. this technique sucks balls in street racing in a school zone. you need a turbo to win those pinks bro!
| HamFist | 08-31-2006 02:00 PM |
[QUOTE=Kostamojen;15088298]Hamfist: You would freak out if you drove my car[/QUOTE]
I prolly sound like a finnicky little bitch with all this stuff, huh?
:lol: ;)
I prolly sound like a finnicky little bitch with all this stuff, huh?
:lol: ;)
| RB5 Clone | 08-31-2006 02:12 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist;15087987] All the techie stuff I do and working on the car and modding--it's ALL to improve the driving experience.[/QUOTE]
yes, driving experience is what we re talking about here. without experience and skill, all the mods in da world won't help do anything but ensure that you are going a lot fastAr when you DO eventually go off the road! ;)
Dave G
PS--it eventually all comes down to judgment -- what's going to work for this particular car, set up this particular way, at this particular corner, for these particular conditions. Something we always say at Team O: "We can teach you all sorts of great technique, bu we CAN'T teach you good judgement. That you have to provide on your own"
yes, driving experience is what we re talking about here. without experience and skill, all the mods in da world won't help do anything but ensure that you are going a lot fastAr when you DO eventually go off the road! ;)
Dave G
PS--it eventually all comes down to judgment -- what's going to work for this particular car, set up this particular way, at this particular corner, for these particular conditions. Something we always say at Team O: "We can teach you all sorts of great technique, bu we CAN'T teach you good judgement. That you have to provide on your own"
| Kostamojen | 08-31-2006 04:49 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist;15088933]I prolly sound like a finnicky little bitch with all this stuff, huh?
:lol: ;)[/QUOTE]
LOL! Not really, finnicky is allowed in the motorsports forum :p Everyone has their own preferences...
Some like huge swaybars, some dont, some like suspensions sprung like a rock, some dont, we can go on and on about this, its all good :p
:lol: ;)[/QUOTE]
LOL! Not really, finnicky is allowed in the motorsports forum :p Everyone has their own preferences...
Some like huge swaybars, some dont, some like suspensions sprung like a rock, some dont, we can go on and on about this, its all good :p
| Howl | 09-01-2006 08:59 AM |
[QUOTE=RB5 Clone;15086585]some good info packed into a VERY long original post. there are a few garbled places, but all in all not bad.
trouble is, there are a number of traps easy to fall into here:
1--don't expect to learn these types of driving technique from just one loooong text post. it takes lots of practice with a skilled copilot talking you thru the new, non-instinctive maneuvers. while learning it's easy to hit things, break the car, or go off the road (often all 3 at once), so you need to learn in a controlled environment. For some strange reason, this last fact is not obvious to many ppl.
2--OP makes a common mistake of equating performance driving techniques with advanced car setup. Sorry to say, but just bolting new stuff on your car will NOT automatically make it do what you want! a skilled driver can make even the most lowly rental Cobalt sheetbox dance like you wouldn't believe.
I'm a longtime rally racer and an instructor at Team O'Neil. We've had students show up with very dialed-in cars who can't drive them to save themselves. Low-grip surfaces only make this more evident. In fact, getting your car set up like the OP is talking about makes the car much LESS forgiving of iffy driving inputs. sometimes we've had to move a student from their caged/track-prepped WRX into one of the beater 2.2 Impreza school cars before they can learn to stay on the road. the more forgiving car is MUCH easier to learn new techniques with.
so...careful what you wish for.
bottom line: develop the "driver software" before wasting money on mods. this holds true whether you want fast road driving, autoX, rallyX, track, rally or whatever.
good dialog, tho.
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing/Team O'Neil[/QUOTE]
To illustrate this point: at a local RallyX I was at a few months ago the top car in the AWD class was a N/A RS (abeit on gravel tires and a good suspension), who beat many WRX's and at least one STi, some of which were set up for gravel. Even my 4EAT TS with relatively stock suspension was in the middle of the AWD field, beating a few of the WRX's. Driver skill is much more important than performance when the conditons get interesting.
trouble is, there are a number of traps easy to fall into here:
1--don't expect to learn these types of driving technique from just one loooong text post. it takes lots of practice with a skilled copilot talking you thru the new, non-instinctive maneuvers. while learning it's easy to hit things, break the car, or go off the road (often all 3 at once), so you need to learn in a controlled environment. For some strange reason, this last fact is not obvious to many ppl.
2--OP makes a common mistake of equating performance driving techniques with advanced car setup. Sorry to say, but just bolting new stuff on your car will NOT automatically make it do what you want! a skilled driver can make even the most lowly rental Cobalt sheetbox dance like you wouldn't believe.
I'm a longtime rally racer and an instructor at Team O'Neil. We've had students show up with very dialed-in cars who can't drive them to save themselves. Low-grip surfaces only make this more evident. In fact, getting your car set up like the OP is talking about makes the car much LESS forgiving of iffy driving inputs. sometimes we've had to move a student from their caged/track-prepped WRX into one of the beater 2.2 Impreza school cars before they can learn to stay on the road. the more forgiving car is MUCH easier to learn new techniques with.
so...careful what you wish for.
bottom line: develop the "driver software" before wasting money on mods. this holds true whether you want fast road driving, autoX, rallyX, track, rally or whatever.
good dialog, tho.
Dave G
Last Ditch Racing/Team O'Neil[/QUOTE]
To illustrate this point: at a local RallyX I was at a few months ago the top car in the AWD class was a N/A RS (abeit on gravel tires and a good suspension), who beat many WRX's and at least one STi, some of which were set up for gravel. Even my 4EAT TS with relatively stock suspension was in the middle of the AWD field, beating a few of the WRX's. Driver skill is much more important than performance when the conditons get interesting.
| gerald06sti | 09-01-2006 01:31 PM |
Girls only like guys with skills ...
OT - I think in unabombers post/FAQ on suspension there is a link that goes over how someone with a WRX on a stock suspension was faster at the track/auto x than drivers with STI's and coilovers. So I guess it just goes to show that the best mod is to fix the loose nut behind the wheel!
So perhaps maybe the best thing to do when trying to improve driving on dry/wet/snow/etc.. condidtions is to particpate in a driver school first? That's what I am considering before I do anything to the STI - however I personally am not 100 percent happy w/ how it handles. Even in everyday driving and "spirited" driving condidtions I feel that my 04 R32 was much better. However I must conceed that most likely it's me overdriving or not driving properly.
OT - I think in unabombers post/FAQ on suspension there is a link that goes over how someone with a WRX on a stock suspension was faster at the track/auto x than drivers with STI's and coilovers. So I guess it just goes to show that the best mod is to fix the loose nut behind the wheel!
So perhaps maybe the best thing to do when trying to improve driving on dry/wet/snow/etc.. condidtions is to particpate in a driver school first? That's what I am considering before I do anything to the STI - however I personally am not 100 percent happy w/ how it handles. Even in everyday driving and "spirited" driving condidtions I feel that my 04 R32 was much better. However I must conceed that most likely it's me overdriving or not driving properly.
| HamFist | 09-01-2006 01:55 PM |
C/N: I felt safer in my car in adverse conditions with these mods....
If everyone disagrees with "why", then tell me why it felt that way when I drove it :lol:.
If everyone disagrees with "why", then tell me why it felt that way when I drove it :lol:.
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 02:27 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist;15102168]C/N: I felt safer in my car in adverse conditions with these mods....
If everyone disagrees with "why", then tell me why it felt that way when I drove it :lol:.[/QUOTE]
Placebo effect. ;)
It felt better because it WAS better. It's just that many ppl do upgrades the wrong way -- mod car first, then struggle (or never) to drive it up to its potential.
Dave G
PS--Rereading your OP, must also disagree with your emphasis on suspension mods as the key to adverse conditions--TIRES are the #1 weapon to handle winter/dirt/wet roads. Not saying suspension doesn't help (of course) but that's not necessarily the best or most cost-effective place to start.
If everyone disagrees with "why", then tell me why it felt that way when I drove it :lol:.[/QUOTE]
Placebo effect. ;)
It felt better because it WAS better. It's just that many ppl do upgrades the wrong way -- mod car first, then struggle (or never) to drive it up to its potential.
Dave G
PS--Rereading your OP, must also disagree with your emphasis on suspension mods as the key to adverse conditions--TIRES are the #1 weapon to handle winter/dirt/wet roads. Not saying suspension doesn't help (of course) but that's not necessarily the best or most cost-effective place to start.
| HamFist | 09-01-2006 03:06 PM |
***However, correct tire choice is paramount above even any of this stuff, and I LOVE 4 studded snows.***
...you forgot that last line in the first paragraph ;). The chat here is good! I like this.
Yes, I agree 100% about tires being more important. However, how can I still drive on Kumho 712's on ice with this modded suspension and it still drives fine? Before this stuff I could trigger ABS on Kumho's just by tapping the brake. I get the ALK installed, and I can stomp the brakes on ice, yank the wheel and I have to work to get the ABS to come on. The thing actually stops on Kumho 712's on the ice with this stuff done to the suspension. We know how finnicky the stock ABS is, too.
+1 for more emphasis on tire and driver skill.
<---IS a finnicky bitch because he couldn't drive his stock vehicle like an asshat in the snow. I absolutely love a controllable sideways ice drift! Get the car sideways, flutter the gas and countersteer. SOOOOO much fun!
...you forgot that last line in the first paragraph ;). The chat here is good! I like this.
Yes, I agree 100% about tires being more important. However, how can I still drive on Kumho 712's on ice with this modded suspension and it still drives fine? Before this stuff I could trigger ABS on Kumho's just by tapping the brake. I get the ALK installed, and I can stomp the brakes on ice, yank the wheel and I have to work to get the ABS to come on. The thing actually stops on Kumho 712's on the ice with this stuff done to the suspension. We know how finnicky the stock ABS is, too.
+1 for more emphasis on tire and driver skill.
<---IS a finnicky bitch because he couldn't drive his stock vehicle like an asshat in the snow. I absolutely love a controllable sideways ice drift! Get the car sideways, flutter the gas and countersteer. SOOOOO much fun!
| RB5 Clone | 09-01-2006 03:18 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist;15103160] how can I still drive on Kumho 712's on ice with this modded suspension and it still drives fine? Before this stuff I could trigger ABS on Kumho's just by tapping the brake. [/QUOTE]
most likely explanation is that the conditions were different. If the icy road was really more like hardpacked snow and it was cold and dry, you probly had pretty good grip
if the road surfaces is more like a hockey rink and it's warm, you're gonna struggle with anything but studded tires. warmer weather or sun on ice = water = lube = drivers going holey SHEEET whycan'tIturnthispiggie???:eek:
DG
most likely explanation is that the conditions were different. If the icy road was really more like hardpacked snow and it was cold and dry, you probly had pretty good grip
if the road surfaces is more like a hockey rink and it's warm, you're gonna struggle with anything but studded tires. warmer weather or sun on ice = water = lube = drivers going holey SHEEET whycan'tIturnthispiggie???:eek:
DG
| Kostamojen | 09-01-2006 04:50 PM |
[QUOTE=HamFist]Yes, I agree 100% about tires being more important. However, how can I still drive on Kumho 712's on ice with this modded suspension and it still drives fine?[/QUOTE]
Dude, thats just plain dangerous! :lol: :lol: :lol:
<-- Not a khumo 712 fan
Dude, thats just plain dangerous! :lol: :lol: :lol:
<-- Not a khumo 712 fan
| HamFist | 09-01-2006 08:26 PM |
I couldn't get stupid with Kumhos on ice. I COULD with studded snows, though :lol:. It's a blast!
Colorado snow usually doesn't freeze on top. RB5 is right, there. You're right about the conditions. It's very rarely cold and wet in Colorado. The snow usually is dry and puffy down here in Denver. Up in the mountains I'd never think of using Kumhos unless it was nice and warm ;). Denver very rarely freezes completely.
Colorado snow usually doesn't freeze on top. RB5 is right, there. You're right about the conditions. It's very rarely cold and wet in Colorado. The snow usually is dry and puffy down here in Denver. Up in the mountains I'd never think of using Kumhos unless it was nice and warm ;). Denver very rarely freezes completely.
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