| rallykeith | 05-14-2003 11:10 PM |
Personal Note on the situation surrounding Sawmill
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This is a personal statement to all that are commenting on the current situation surrounding the incident at Sawmill. This entire subject is not to be taken lightly by any stretch of the imagination and I'm getting frustrated with the attitudes and ignorance that seems to be going on surrounding everything.
Let me tell everyone a few things. What I'm about to say is everything that I'm willing to say and feel comfortable conveying, so please don't try to pry further.
#1. I was at Sawmill 3 years ago when Sean Kovacs was killed. It was my first performance rally, and this was when there were two+ days of a school before hand.
#2 I was there this year when the two spectators were killed. I was working stage 4, and I�m friends with everyone involved with organizing and running the event.
#3 Through multiple friends and others that were there I very much know what happened and know the extent of the incident. (Peter and Martin didn�t die of complications, or even died while on the way to a hospital.)
#4 I know someone that was standing right there and watched it all happen and had to try to help while Peter Smith's wife watched.
#5 I know the next competitor that was on the road. The one that had to stop and give aid, send the next car on for help, and try to maintain some level of composure.
All of this I know, and it is unfortunate that none of you do. I know more details and I know more than I feel comfortable knowing. It is not in my place to give these details that have been conveyed to me, not only out of the respect for the people involved but also for the fact that I was not there at the scene and can't properly convey the levity of it. It's easy to sit back in your computer chair and make idol comments while not understanding everything that is going on, and I'm asking everyone to please use their best judgement.
I want everyone to stop and ask themselve�s these questions before saying anything else about what the SCCA is or is not doing.
#1 How would I feel if I had been there and watched it happen?
#2 How would I feel if I was a competitor and was the first one there and had to manage it?
#3 How would I feel if was the competitor that caused this? (The one that has to carry this with them for the rest of their life.)
#4 How would I react if twice in three years someone was killed on the same road at the same rally that I organized?
#5 How would I feel if it was my sibling, or parent, or child that was killed that day?
#6 Can I put a price tag on life? Is it worth stopping a few rallies if it allows the organization to gain its composure and make efforts to try to see that this never happens again?
I will leave you with this one last thing. If you look at the entry list you will see who was next on the road behind the incident. I've known that man, the driver, for my entire life. He has been like a second father to me, and has been one of the best rally buddies a person could ever have. He is the reason my family and I are involved with the sport, and on top of that involved with Subaru. Don't expect to see him entered in any event anytime soon, or for that matter ever again. This is nothing to joke about or make light of. I'm sitting here fighting off tears just typing this because I have to recall the emotions of Saturday and the mental images from the descriptions.
Please, lets not be ignorant about this and let people at the SCCA handle this as they see best. It's not the end of the world, and it certainly isn't the end of the sport. I don�t think there is a single one of us that, when confronted with these burdens, wouldn�t stop, even if just for a moment, and take a look around.
Thank you,
Keith Kennedy
Let me tell everyone a few things. What I'm about to say is everything that I'm willing to say and feel comfortable conveying, so please don't try to pry further.
#1. I was at Sawmill 3 years ago when Sean Kovacs was killed. It was my first performance rally, and this was when there were two+ days of a school before hand.
#2 I was there this year when the two spectators were killed. I was working stage 4, and I�m friends with everyone involved with organizing and running the event.
#3 Through multiple friends and others that were there I very much know what happened and know the extent of the incident. (Peter and Martin didn�t die of complications, or even died while on the way to a hospital.)
#4 I know someone that was standing right there and watched it all happen and had to try to help while Peter Smith's wife watched.
#5 I know the next competitor that was on the road. The one that had to stop and give aid, send the next car on for help, and try to maintain some level of composure.
All of this I know, and it is unfortunate that none of you do. I know more details and I know more than I feel comfortable knowing. It is not in my place to give these details that have been conveyed to me, not only out of the respect for the people involved but also for the fact that I was not there at the scene and can't properly convey the levity of it. It's easy to sit back in your computer chair and make idol comments while not understanding everything that is going on, and I'm asking everyone to please use their best judgement.
I want everyone to stop and ask themselve�s these questions before saying anything else about what the SCCA is or is not doing.
#1 How would I feel if I had been there and watched it happen?
#2 How would I feel if I was a competitor and was the first one there and had to manage it?
#3 How would I feel if was the competitor that caused this? (The one that has to carry this with them for the rest of their life.)
#4 How would I react if twice in three years someone was killed on the same road at the same rally that I organized?
#5 How would I feel if it was my sibling, or parent, or child that was killed that day?
#6 Can I put a price tag on life? Is it worth stopping a few rallies if it allows the organization to gain its composure and make efforts to try to see that this never happens again?
I will leave you with this one last thing. If you look at the entry list you will see who was next on the road behind the incident. I've known that man, the driver, for my entire life. He has been like a second father to me, and has been one of the best rally buddies a person could ever have. He is the reason my family and I are involved with the sport, and on top of that involved with Subaru. Don't expect to see him entered in any event anytime soon, or for that matter ever again. This is nothing to joke about or make light of. I'm sitting here fighting off tears just typing this because I have to recall the emotions of Saturday and the mental images from the descriptions.
Please, lets not be ignorant about this and let people at the SCCA handle this as they see best. It's not the end of the world, and it certainly isn't the end of the sport. I don�t think there is a single one of us that, when confronted with these burdens, wouldn�t stop, even if just for a moment, and take a look around.
Thank you,
Keith Kennedy
| DJ 9iron | 05-14-2003 11:25 PM |
You know what makes me sad?
I filmed stage 2. Our crew immediately left stage 2 as the first car was going off for stage 3.
I arrived at stage 4 as the 4th car was passing through.
The 30-50 minutes that passed with no cars, me and fellow spectators (Irish) were having a merry old time. We were hooting and hollering. We filmed them singing Irish songs, and it was great passing the time.
Then a rally car came through real slow. He just shouted that they were going to restart stage 4. So we get ready for the action.
About 30 minutes pass, and a pickup truck drives by, stating that the STAGE was cancelled and the competitors were returning to service.
So we left for the service area, as we arrive, our friends (Pete 97 GS-T) informs us of the tragedy.
It was terrible.:(
I filmed stage 2. Our crew immediately left stage 2 as the first car was going off for stage 3.
I arrived at stage 4 as the 4th car was passing through.
The 30-50 minutes that passed with no cars, me and fellow spectators (Irish) were having a merry old time. We were hooting and hollering. We filmed them singing Irish songs, and it was great passing the time.
Then a rally car came through real slow. He just shouted that they were going to restart stage 4. So we get ready for the action.
About 30 minutes pass, and a pickup truck drives by, stating that the STAGE was cancelled and the competitors were returning to service.
So we left for the service area, as we arrive, our friends (Pete 97 GS-T) informs us of the tragedy.
It was terrible.:(
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-14-2003 11:32 PM |
I'm not sure what you're agitated about.
A very tragic thing happened, people expressed sympathy and regret for those involved and want to know more about how the rally community, event organizers and the SCCA are reacting to this and include the competitors in the process.
It has been frustrating not knowing more about the accident or what is happening in the aftermath ---- if the SCCA could communicate more I think it would help everyone.
Glenn
A very tragic thing happened, people expressed sympathy and regret for those involved and want to know more about how the rally community, event organizers and the SCCA are reacting to this and include the competitors in the process.
It has been frustrating not knowing more about the accident or what is happening in the aftermath ---- if the SCCA could communicate more I think it would help everyone.
Glenn
| rallykeith | 05-15-2003 12:00 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]I'm not sure what you're agitated about.
A very tragic thing happened, people expressed sympathy and regret for those involved and want to know more about how the rally community, event organizers and the SCCA are reacting to this and include the competitors in the process.
It has been frustrating not knowing more about the accident or what is happening in the aftermath ---- if the SCCA could communicate more I think it would help everyone.
Glenn [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not upset about any of the things you mentioned Glenn.
I'm upset at the following things:
People saying things like accidents happen get over it or people get killed in other racing and they still race so why shouldn't we
People thinking they know what's best for a national orginization
People that try to relate this to road racing where they have fenced off race tracks
People telling off the orginization that has been making this all possible for some time now
I'm not pointing any fingers and I'm not saying that there is anybody that is totally off. I just want people to have a little more insight and respect for the situation, that's all.
Keith
[B]I'm not sure what you're agitated about.
A very tragic thing happened, people expressed sympathy and regret for those involved and want to know more about how the rally community, event organizers and the SCCA are reacting to this and include the competitors in the process.
It has been frustrating not knowing more about the accident or what is happening in the aftermath ---- if the SCCA could communicate more I think it would help everyone.
Glenn [/B][/QUOTE]
I'm not upset about any of the things you mentioned Glenn.
I'm upset at the following things:
People saying things like accidents happen get over it or people get killed in other racing and they still race so why shouldn't we
People thinking they know what's best for a national orginization
People that try to relate this to road racing where they have fenced off race tracks
People telling off the orginization that has been making this all possible for some time now
I'm not pointing any fingers and I'm not saying that there is anybody that is totally off. I just want people to have a little more insight and respect for the situation, that's all.
Keith
| Rallychic | 05-15-2003 08:56 AM |
Keith,
I appreciate your honesty on this situation as I know what you wrote must have been difficult.
I don't know if I would ever rally again being in that situation myself....the trauma would be too much.
Please pass along my regards to everyone involved out there as I know they need all the support they can get.
Thanks,
Tina
I appreciate your honesty on this situation as I know what you wrote must have been difficult.
I don't know if I would ever rally again being in that situation myself....the trauma would be too much.
Please pass along my regards to everyone involved out there as I know they need all the support they can get.
Thanks,
Tina
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-15-2003 09:59 AM |
Re: Personal Note on the situation surrounding Sawmill
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rallykeith [/i]
[B]Please, lets not be ignorant about this and let people at the SCCA handle this as they see best. It's not the end of the world, and it certainly isn't the end of the sport. I don�t think there is a single one of us that, when confronted with these burdens, wouldn�t stop, even if just for a moment, and take a look around.[/B][/QUOTE]
You typed a lot, and lots of the questions I can answer cuz I saw it all happen right in front of me. I agree with letting the SCCA work out what they have to do. This wasn't a minor "oopsie". This was a major tragedy. It needed a major reaction. Planes crash into skyscrapers, what happens? Stop all planes from flying. Something got worked out in that situation, something will get worked out in this one. Give it time. You might miss an event or two, but given the choice between cancelling an event and another tragedy like this, I'll take the cancellation thank you.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
[B]Please, lets not be ignorant about this and let people at the SCCA handle this as they see best. It's not the end of the world, and it certainly isn't the end of the sport. I don�t think there is a single one of us that, when confronted with these burdens, wouldn�t stop, even if just for a moment, and take a look around.[/B][/QUOTE]
You typed a lot, and lots of the questions I can answer cuz I saw it all happen right in front of me. I agree with letting the SCCA work out what they have to do. This wasn't a minor "oopsie". This was a major tragedy. It needed a major reaction. Planes crash into skyscrapers, what happens? Stop all planes from flying. Something got worked out in that situation, something will get worked out in this one. Give it time. You might miss an event or two, but given the choice between cancelling an event and another tragedy like this, I'll take the cancellation thank you.
Pete
[url]www.onalimbracing.com[/url]
| Sean | 05-15-2003 10:51 AM |
Re: Re: Personal Note on the situation surrounding Sawmill
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete 97 GS-T [/i]
[B]Something got worked out in that situation, something will get worked out in this one. Give it time. You might miss an event or two, but given the choice between cancelling an event and another tragedy like this, I'll take the cancellation thank you.[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly. Something like this was eventually bound to happen at a ClubRally or ProRally event. Spectators are not happy with designated spectator pens so they trek into the woods to find a better spot. I can personally say that I am one of those people and, as an upcoming driver that will run my first event come Fall, I know and accept the risks involved. If I can see a car, I know I'm taking a risk. Heck, even if I can just hear a car, I know I'm taking a risk.
But common sense and personal acceptance of the risks of spectating does not shield the SCCA from liability. In most other countries, if a spectator gets hit, sucks to be them...they shouldn't have been standing there. In the US, if a spectator gets hit, call the lawyers...it's time to sue. I could intentionally lay down in the middle of a stage, get run over and my family would still be able to sue the SCCA for negligence.
So it is completely understandable that the SCCA will take a step back to look at the big picture and [b]temporarily suspend[/b] the ClubRally program. It's a no win situation, however. Spectators will always be a part of rally and the SCCA will always be liable for injuries regardless of whether an incident was a marshal's fault, a spectators fault or a driver's fault.
Unfortunately, there is no way that spectators can be contained. It's a free country and people have hiking boots...no matter how much magic tape gets put up people will trek into the woods to find better spots. The only way to alleviate the issue is to somehow get everyone to sign a waiver on their way into a stage but, as we all know, it's illegal to sign ones rights away.
If, and only if, this is a [b]complete termination[/b] of all amateur SCCA ClubRally events in the US then I will be forced to find another sanctioning body to compete with. There is no way to get into a ProRally unless I'm a high seeded ClubRally driver. So killing off the ClubRally series effectively kills off the ProRally series as we know it. Everything will change.
I guess I'm finished rambling...I understand all of Keith's points and understand the stance the SCCA has been forced to take. I understand the risks involved in spectating and I understand how the witnesses, spectators' families, drivers and drivers' families must feel.
[URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/][IMG]http://www.trunkmonkey.com/pics/lil.gif[/IMG] Team Updates[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index]FAQ[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index&catid=6&topic=]NESIC News[/URL] | [url=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=PostCalendar]NESIC Calendar[/url] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=gallery&file=index]Gallery[/URL] | [URL=http://www.trunkmonkey.com/index.php?module=ContentExpress&func=display&ceid=6&bid=20&btitle=Random%20Static&meid=8]Birth[/URL]
[B]Something got worked out in that situation, something will get worked out in this one. Give it time. You might miss an event or two, but given the choice between cancelling an event and another tragedy like this, I'll take the cancellation thank you.[/B][/QUOTE]
Exactly. Something like this was eventually bound to happen at a ClubRally or ProRally event. Spectators are not happy with designated spectator pens so they trek into the woods to find a better spot. I can personally say that I am one of those people and, as an upcoming driver that will run my first event come Fall, I know and accept the risks involved. If I can see a car, I know I'm taking a risk. Heck, even if I can just hear a car, I know I'm taking a risk.
But common sense and personal acceptance of the risks of spectating does not shield the SCCA from liability. In most other countries, if a spectator gets hit, sucks to be them...they shouldn't have been standing there. In the US, if a spectator gets hit, call the lawyers...it's time to sue. I could intentionally lay down in the middle of a stage, get run over and my family would still be able to sue the SCCA for negligence.
So it is completely understandable that the SCCA will take a step back to look at the big picture and [b]temporarily suspend[/b] the ClubRally program. It's a no win situation, however. Spectators will always be a part of rally and the SCCA will always be liable for injuries regardless of whether an incident was a marshal's fault, a spectators fault or a driver's fault.
Unfortunately, there is no way that spectators can be contained. It's a free country and people have hiking boots...no matter how much magic tape gets put up people will trek into the woods to find better spots. The only way to alleviate the issue is to somehow get everyone to sign a waiver on their way into a stage but, as we all know, it's illegal to sign ones rights away.
If, and only if, this is a [b]complete termination[/b] of all amateur SCCA ClubRally events in the US then I will be forced to find another sanctioning body to compete with. There is no way to get into a ProRally unless I'm a high seeded ClubRally driver. So killing off the ClubRally series effectively kills off the ProRally series as we know it. Everything will change.
I guess I'm finished rambling...I understand all of Keith's points and understand the stance the SCCA has been forced to take. I understand the risks involved in spectating and I understand how the witnesses, spectators' families, drivers and drivers' families must feel.
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| Jens | 05-15-2003 11:27 AM |
Leaving SCCA ProRally/ClubRally to run the investigation is like leaving a fox to guard a hen house.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings.
| Subie Gal | 05-15-2003 11:29 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
[B]Leaving SCCA ProRally/ClubRally to run the investigation is like leaving a fox to guard a hen house.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings. [/B][/QUOTE]
amen Jens!!!
[B]Leaving SCCA ProRally/ClubRally to run the investigation is like leaving a fox to guard a hen house.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings. [/B][/QUOTE]
amen Jens!!!
| daphne | 05-15-2003 11:43 AM |
Correction
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�
Just one correction to Keith's post. The co-driver fatality happened in 2000 which was technically 4 years ago.
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-15-2003 11:49 AM |
Re: Correction
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[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by daphne [/i]
[B]Just one correction to Keith's post. The co-driver fatality happened in 2000 which was technically 4 years ago. [/B][/QUOTE]
May 2000
to
May 2001 = 1 year
to
May 2002 = 2 years
to
May 2003 = 3 years
Oh, and Jens: Your e-mail address doesn't work, but the answer to your e-mail is: "Sorry, no."
Pete
[B]Just one correction to Keith's post. The co-driver fatality happened in 2000 which was technically 4 years ago. [/B][/QUOTE]
May 2000
to
May 2001 = 1 year
to
May 2002 = 2 years
to
May 2003 = 3 years
Oh, and Jens: Your e-mail address doesn't work, but the answer to your e-mail is: "Sorry, no."
Pete
| daphne | 05-15-2003 12:18 PM |
4 years worth of events: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.
That's what I'm trying to convey.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.
That's what I'm trying to convey.
| jprowland | 05-15-2003 12:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]
amen Jens!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
Second to the "amen!" This has been a long time in the making, and frankly I'm surprised an accident hasn't happened a long time ago.
Hopefully now we'll see some real change. In the meantime, it wasn't right to cancel all the ClubRallies when they should have addressed this years ago.
[B]
amen Jens!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
Second to the "amen!" This has been a long time in the making, and frankly I'm surprised an accident hasn't happened a long time ago.
Hopefully now we'll see some real change. In the meantime, it wasn't right to cancel all the ClubRallies when they should have addressed this years ago.
| Pete 97 GS-T | 05-15-2003 12:35 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by daphne [/i]
[B]4 years worth of events: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.
That's what I'm trying to convey. [/B][/QUOTE]
oh
[B]4 years worth of events: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.
That's what I'm trying to convey. [/B][/QUOTE]
oh
| rallykeith | 05-15-2003 01:47 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by daphne [/i]
[B]4 years worth of events: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your right Daphne. Wasn't thinking about that fact. No matter what it isn't good, and it is a shame because of just how wonderful the people and the roads are in the greater Wellsboro area.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens[/i]
[B]SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.[/B][/QUOTE]
Jens, as rare as it tends to be I absolutley agree. Daphne, Jon, and I even sat and discussed some of that saturday evening.
It is a shame that something like this has to happen in order for action to be taken. At the same time, how would people have reacted to it if they tryed to mandate something years ago when there were no immediate problems? The SCCA wanted to mandate fuel cells in the cars but if I remember correctly there was so much opposition that they dropped it. How are you going to feel when an incident occurs that ruptures a factory fuel cell and causes a forest fire, or causes a car to burn to the ground before the competitors can get out? I'm sure everyone will jump and claim that fuel cells should be mandated.
Hindsight is 20/20. Lets stop complaining, and fix what we can and move forward. For everyone that is complaining I'd rather you spent that energy trying to help and make suggestions of how to make things better.
Keith
[B]4 years worth of events: 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.
Saying there have been 3 fatalities in 3 years implies that these happened over 3 event, not 4.[/B][/QUOTE]
Your right Daphne. Wasn't thinking about that fact. No matter what it isn't good, and it is a shame because of just how wonderful the people and the roads are in the greater Wellsboro area.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens[/i]
[B]SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.[/B][/QUOTE]
Jens, as rare as it tends to be I absolutley agree. Daphne, Jon, and I even sat and discussed some of that saturday evening.
It is a shame that something like this has to happen in order for action to be taken. At the same time, how would people have reacted to it if they tryed to mandate something years ago when there were no immediate problems? The SCCA wanted to mandate fuel cells in the cars but if I remember correctly there was so much opposition that they dropped it. How are you going to feel when an incident occurs that ruptures a factory fuel cell and causes a forest fire, or causes a car to burn to the ground before the competitors can get out? I'm sure everyone will jump and claim that fuel cells should be mandated.
Hindsight is 20/20. Lets stop complaining, and fix what we can and move forward. For everyone that is complaining I'd rather you spent that energy trying to help and make suggestions of how to make things better.
Keith
| Jens | 05-15-2003 02:05 PM |
>>>
Hindsight is 20/20. Lets stop complaining, and fix what we can and move forward. For everyone that is complaining I'd rather you spent that energy trying to help and make suggestions of how to make things better.
<<<
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. However the people in charge ignored the warnings, chastised those doing the warnings, and buried their heads in the sand (presumably hoping nothing bad would happen).
Those same people are still in charge and are the one's doing the investigating (behind closed doors so to speak).
My suggestion is (and always has been) to blast those doors open. Before that is done nothing significant can be accomplished.
As for doing anything (if you are referring to me). I have been approached by an official for my input. I am currently (today) putting something together. So, yes, I am doing something. I wish I had been asked before.
Hindsight is 20/20. Lets stop complaining, and fix what we can and move forward. For everyone that is complaining I'd rather you spent that energy trying to help and make suggestions of how to make things better.
<<<
Yes, hindsight is 20/20. However the people in charge ignored the warnings, chastised those doing the warnings, and buried their heads in the sand (presumably hoping nothing bad would happen).
Those same people are still in charge and are the one's doing the investigating (behind closed doors so to speak).
My suggestion is (and always has been) to blast those doors open. Before that is done nothing significant can be accomplished.
As for doing anything (if you are referring to me). I have been approached by an official for my input. I am currently (today) putting something together. So, yes, I am doing something. I wish I had been asked before.
| [email�protected] | 05-15-2003 02:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
Leaving SCCA ProRally/ClubRally to run the investigation is like leaving a fox to guard a hen house.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings.
[i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]
amen Jens!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
So since something should have been done years ago and the SCCA didnt listen, then the SCCA should NOT stop the rallies and continue doing what they should NOT have been doing for years.
That is what you are getting at by your respones in this and the other thread.
You're mad at the SCCA for stopping the events to consider change and want them to keep going.
However, you are mad at the way they are currently running things because you think its dangerous.
You all really need to make up your minds.:rolleyes:
Leaving SCCA ProRally/ClubRally to run the investigation is like leaving a fox to guard a hen house.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally was warned for years by many concerned competitors and workers that a disaster was in the making in ProRally/ClubRally.
Luck was the only thing that delayed the disaster.
SCCA ProRally/ClubRally is responsible for ignoring the warnings.
[i]Originally posted by Subie Gal [/i]
[B]
amen Jens!!! [/B][/QUOTE]
So since something should have been done years ago and the SCCA didnt listen, then the SCCA should NOT stop the rallies and continue doing what they should NOT have been doing for years.
That is what you are getting at by your respones in this and the other thread.
You're mad at the SCCA for stopping the events to consider change and want them to keep going.
However, you are mad at the way they are currently running things because you think its dangerous.
You all really need to make up your minds.:rolleyes:
| rallykeith | 05-15-2003 03:08 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
[B]My suggestion is (and always has been) to blast those doors open. Before that is done nothing significant can be accomplished.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. I do agree that the need to be opened, but not opened from the start. I think there needs to be some closed door discussions.
[quote][B]As for doing anything (if you are referring to me). I have been approached by an official for my input. I am currently (today) putting something together. So, yes, I am doing something. I wish I had been asked before. [/B][/QUOTE]
Surprisingly enough Jens I'm not refering to you. I'm glad to hear that you are involved, and I hope you will try to push the SCCA into getting more input from what I call the end user level, the people actually running the rallies and working the stages.
Keith
[B]My suggestion is (and always has been) to blast those doors open. Before that is done nothing significant can be accomplished.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes. I do agree that the need to be opened, but not opened from the start. I think there needs to be some closed door discussions.
[quote][B]As for doing anything (if you are referring to me). I have been approached by an official for my input. I am currently (today) putting something together. So, yes, I am doing something. I wish I had been asked before. [/B][/QUOTE]
Surprisingly enough Jens I'm not refering to you. I'm glad to hear that you are involved, and I hope you will try to push the SCCA into getting more input from what I call the end user level, the people actually running the rallies and working the stages.
Keith
| Jens | 05-15-2003 03:18 PM |
I did not mean to imply that I was approached at the national level. The official that contacted me is contacting a number of others too. My opinions will not be over-represented... so don't worry :-)
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport"
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport"
| ANZAC_1915 | 05-15-2003 10:33 PM |
Beyond the rumor over insurance being pulled, no word on why ProRally and supporting Club rallies are "safer" than club rallies.
:mad:
:mad:
| Jens | 05-15-2003 11:05 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Glenn Wallace [/i]
[B]Beyond the rumor over insurance being pulled, no word on why ProRally and supporting Club rallies are "safer" than club rallies.
:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
National (SCCA Topeka) won't cite any valid evidence why ProRally is safer, because it isn't. I (from personal experience) would argue ProRally is less safe.
Once again the divisional level teams have been hung out to dry by the so-called New World Order of SCCA ProRally and its leaders.
[B]Beyond the rumor over insurance being pulled, no word on why ProRally and supporting Club rallies are "safer" than club rallies.
:mad: [/B][/QUOTE]
National (SCCA Topeka) won't cite any valid evidence why ProRally is safer, because it isn't. I (from personal experience) would argue ProRally is less safe.
Once again the divisional level teams have been hung out to dry by the so-called New World Order of SCCA ProRally and its leaders.
| ITWRX4ME | 05-16-2003 01:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
[B]I did not mean to imply that I was approached at the national level. The official that contacted me is contacting a number of others too. My opinions will not be over-represented... so don't worry :-)
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport" [/B][/QUOTE]
Now that'd be good way to build enthusiasm in the sport; remove spectators from the equation. If NASCAR had that reaction the first time a car(or a part of it) went over the wall into the grandstand, it wouldn't exist today at that level it does.
Fans of a sport generally want to participate. They want to touch the cars, get the autographs of the drivers, feel the noise vibrate in their chests, smell hot brakes and burning rubber and buy the T-shirt that says "Been there, done that". SCCA, of which many of us are members, need to find a safe way to make that happen. Otherwise, support for the events will disappear.
[B]I did not mean to imply that I was approached at the national level. The official that contacted me is contacting a number of others too. My opinions will not be over-represented... so don't worry :-)
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport" [/B][/QUOTE]
Now that'd be good way to build enthusiasm in the sport; remove spectators from the equation. If NASCAR had that reaction the first time a car(or a part of it) went over the wall into the grandstand, it wouldn't exist today at that level it does.
Fans of a sport generally want to participate. They want to touch the cars, get the autographs of the drivers, feel the noise vibrate in their chests, smell hot brakes and burning rubber and buy the T-shirt that says "Been there, done that". SCCA, of which many of us are members, need to find a safe way to make that happen. Otherwise, support for the events will disappear.
| Jens | 05-16-2003 02:31 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME [/i]
[B]
Now that'd be good way to build enthusiasm in the sport...
....They want to touch the cars, get the autographs of the drivers, ....and buy the T-shirt ....Otherwise, support for the events will disappear. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not interested in building enthusiasm. I want the spectators to go away.
If you want my autograph I'll mail it to you :-)
If you want a Flying Kiwi Racing hat mail me $20.00
Hey Jamie... you have some stuff to sell to this guy? :-)
Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
[B]
Now that'd be good way to build enthusiasm in the sport...
....They want to touch the cars, get the autographs of the drivers, ....and buy the T-shirt ....Otherwise, support for the events will disappear. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am not interested in building enthusiasm. I want the spectators to go away.
If you want my autograph I'll mail it to you :-)
If you want a Flying Kiwi Racing hat mail me $20.00
Hey Jamie... you have some stuff to sell to this guy? :-)
Jens Larsen
Flying Kiwi Racing
| ITWRX4ME | 05-16-2003 03:34 PM |
Nice attitude. Do you get paid for driving? Where do you think that money comes from? Sponsors? Hah! What motivates a sponsor to pay your sorry ass to drive. The visibility he gets when people see his stickers on your car. His money comes from people who buy his products. They buy his products because they see his stickers on your shiny car.
Get real.
Get real.
| jmott | 05-16-2003 03:42 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens [/i]
[B]I did not mean to imply that I was approached at the national level. The official that contacted me is contacting a number of others too. My opinions will not be over-represented... so don't worry :-)
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport" [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah, good luck keeping spectators out of areas that large.
Rallies usually take place in rural areas and the local populace get seriously hyped up about it.
spectators are going to be around like it or not.
[B]I did not mean to imply that I was approached at the national level. The official that contacted me is contacting a number of others too. My opinions will not be over-represented... so don't worry :-)
If it were up to me there wouldn't be any spectators other than watching TV.
My mantra remains "Rally is not a spectator sport" [/B][/QUOTE]
yeah, good luck keeping spectators out of areas that large.
Rallies usually take place in rural areas and the local populace get seriously hyped up about it.
spectators are going to be around like it or not.
| OnTheGas | 05-16-2003 03:52 PM |
Spectator Free Rallys
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME [/i]
[B]Nice attitude. blah, blah, blah...
Get real. [/B][/QUOTE]Dude, relax!
Jens entitled to that opinion, but do you really think his idea of banning spectators is gonna work? Of course not!
It's just an idea that he wrote to pi$$ you off! And it worked!
;)
[B]Nice attitude. blah, blah, blah...
Get real. [/B][/QUOTE]Dude, relax!
Jens entitled to that opinion, but do you really think his idea of banning spectators is gonna work? Of course not!
It's just an idea that he wrote to pi$$ you off! And it worked!
;)
| Jens | 05-16-2003 04:20 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ITWRX4ME [/i]
[B]Nice attitude. Do you get paid for driving? Where do you think that money comes from? Sponsors? Hah! What motivates a sponsor to pay your sorry ass to drive. The visibility he gets when people see his stickers on your car. His money comes from people who buy his products. They buy his products because they see his stickers on your shiny car.
Get real. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am presently in driving contract negotiations with my wallet.
My ass is sorry that I can't afford to drive this year.
The stickers on my car pay for SCCA official junkets to WRC events. The stickers benefit me by making my car look racey.
[B]Nice attitude. Do you get paid for driving? Where do you think that money comes from? Sponsors? Hah! What motivates a sponsor to pay your sorry ass to drive. The visibility he gets when people see his stickers on your car. His money comes from people who buy his products. They buy his products because they see his stickers on your shiny car.
Get real. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am presently in driving contract negotiations with my wallet.
My ass is sorry that I can't afford to drive this year.
The stickers on my car pay for SCCA official junkets to WRC events. The stickers benefit me by making my car look racey.
| ITWRX4ME | 05-17-2003 08:09 PM |
Re: Spectator Free Rallys
�
�
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by OnTheGas [/i]
[B]Dude, relax!
Jens entitled to that opinion, but do you really think his idea of banning spectators is gonna work? Of course not!
It's just an idea that he wrote to pi$$ you off! And it worked!
;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep. Jens is entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to offer an opposing opinion. That's the beauty of a forum. We're all free to speak our minds.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens[/i]
[B]I am presently in driving contract negotiations with my wallet.
My ass is sorry that I can't afford to drive this year.
The stickers on my car pay for SCCA official junkets to WRC events. The stickers benefit me by making my car look racey.[/B][/QUOTE]
My heart bleeds for you.
[B]Dude, relax!
Jens entitled to that opinion, but do you really think his idea of banning spectators is gonna work? Of course not!
It's just an idea that he wrote to pi$$ you off! And it worked!
;) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yep. Jens is entitled to his opinion and I'm entitled to offer an opposing opinion. That's the beauty of a forum. We're all free to speak our minds.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jens[/i]
[B]I am presently in driving contract negotiations with my wallet.
My ass is sorry that I can't afford to drive this year.
The stickers on my car pay for SCCA official junkets to WRC events. The stickers benefit me by making my car look racey.[/B][/QUOTE]
My heart bleeds for you.
| FlooredSubaru | 05-17-2003 08:54 PM |
The on think i hate about the motorsport i live, work, and breath for is that it is on hard to control race corse.
My family has been in rallying sense way before my time.
death is also way to close to rallying.
I dont know if any of you rember the death of John Woolf and Grant Whittaker, who were killed in 1982 at the Chisujm trail rally in Oklahoma when there path met a non-competitive car on the road. My Father was the next car on the road after them and the first car on the scean coming upon two of your friends dead in there car had to been one of the hardest things he has ever done.
My mothers first husband was a rallyiest and killed himself in a sealed garage with his racecar running becouse he had barried himself so far into dept that he thought that was the only way out of it.
and the night after Tresspassers Will after we turned around and came upon the accedent where my two best friends were laying unconsenes in the race car i had spend endless hours in helping build, I cryed more that night then i have in my entire life having to call there mothers and tell them what had happend and blamed my slef becouse i was the co-driver on the team and brad shouldn't have been in the car.
the whole trip from Minnesota to Colorado everytime i looked in a mirror to change lanes seeing the crashed race car behind me when i had to leave my best friends behind still not knowing the extent of there injurys that was great let me tell you.
and there are storyies like this for all motorsports.
are only hope is that for each insodent that happens a new percossion is taken to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself.
I do know how the familys involved feel. I can't not imagian how the driver of the car feels.
I sure he has spend more then on sleepless night thinking if he would have just breaked sooner or gave it a little more gas no of this would have happend.
its no good to fight over something we can do nothing about, we just need to find a way to keep the fun in rallying and keep spectaors out of harms way.
I'll get off my soap box now.
Erik S.
My family has been in rallying sense way before my time.
death is also way to close to rallying.
I dont know if any of you rember the death of John Woolf and Grant Whittaker, who were killed in 1982 at the Chisujm trail rally in Oklahoma when there path met a non-competitive car on the road. My Father was the next car on the road after them and the first car on the scean coming upon two of your friends dead in there car had to been one of the hardest things he has ever done.
My mothers first husband was a rallyiest and killed himself in a sealed garage with his racecar running becouse he had barried himself so far into dept that he thought that was the only way out of it.
and the night after Tresspassers Will after we turned around and came upon the accedent where my two best friends were laying unconsenes in the race car i had spend endless hours in helping build, I cryed more that night then i have in my entire life having to call there mothers and tell them what had happend and blamed my slef becouse i was the co-driver on the team and brad shouldn't have been in the car.
the whole trip from Minnesota to Colorado everytime i looked in a mirror to change lanes seeing the crashed race car behind me when i had to leave my best friends behind still not knowing the extent of there injurys that was great let me tell you.
and there are storyies like this for all motorsports.
are only hope is that for each insodent that happens a new percossion is taken to ensure that history doesn't repeat itself.
I do know how the familys involved feel. I can't not imagian how the driver of the car feels.
I sure he has spend more then on sleepless night thinking if he would have just breaked sooner or gave it a little more gas no of this would have happend.
its no good to fight over something we can do nothing about, we just need to find a way to keep the fun in rallying and keep spectaors out of harms way.
I'll get off my soap box now.
Erik S.
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