| Jon Bogert | 05-28-2001 05:37 PM |
Rim of the World Comments
Great coverage overall.
Tuthill's comment cracked me up: "Lovell's driving a $750,000 car, mine cost $40,000." The WRC car was absolutely incredible launching out of the corners. Unless he crashes or breaks, no other car in the U.S. can run within 10% of Lovell. I'm sure he backed off considerably after a couple of stages, once he realized just how much faster he was than the field.
Lovell's co-driver was using a topographic map during the rally! Blatantly against the rules, but then, it really doesn't matter when your racing a bunch of Cessnas with an F16. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I can't wait to see the WRC car in the flesh at STPR!
Tuthill's comment cracked me up: "Lovell's driving a $750,000 car, mine cost $40,000." The WRC car was absolutely incredible launching out of the corners. Unless he crashes or breaks, no other car in the U.S. can run within 10% of Lovell. I'm sure he backed off considerably after a couple of stages, once he realized just how much faster he was than the field.
Lovell's co-driver was using a topographic map during the rally! Blatantly against the rules, but then, it really doesn't matter when your racing a bunch of Cessnas with an F16. [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
I can't wait to see the WRC car in the flesh at STPR!
| PURE EPI | 05-28-2001 05:52 PM |
[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/mad.gif[/img] lucky dog.... I HAD planned to be there.... ahhhhhhh!!! on well, maybe next Cherokee trails... I;m sure they'll still have the WRC car by then...
Hacman!!! get some good pics for me!!!
BTW let me know what movies you want copies of from Cherokee 2001... PM me i'll send you a list
Hacman!!! get some good pics for me!!!
BTW let me know what movies you want copies of from Cherokee 2001... PM me i'll send you a list
| Dave_Clark | 05-28-2001 06:25 PM |
Jon, maps are not against the rules, only detailed pace notes prepared in advance and practicing. Maps are perfectly kosher. I've used them before in the past as a codriver. When we ran in the Capitol Forest we used the DNR map and took it to kinko's and enlarged it 144%. I highlighted the stage roads and followed along with a ballpoint pen. The maps are very accurate. If it looks like the road opens after a corner then it does. If it looks like it tightens then it does. That's where the maps are most useful. We didn't even use the route book except for transits. In Washington the roads are banner guarded and arrowed so well that you didn't need to worry about cautions, they're all out there on the course. I wouldn't feel confident enough to try this out of region, though. I don't even trust half the routebooks.
Using maps gave me more to do as a codriver since you can have long periods between instructions using the routebook in a blind rally. In England they (at least they used to) run under the same kind of rules prohibitng practice and pacenotes but everyone would use maps and a lighted magnifying device called a "poti". The organizers would even list which Ordinance Survey maps the rally would be running on.
Using maps gave me more to do as a codriver since you can have long periods between instructions using the routebook in a blind rally. In England they (at least they used to) run under the same kind of rules prohibitng practice and pacenotes but everyone would use maps and a lighted magnifying device called a "poti". The organizers would even list which Ordinance Survey maps the rally would be running on.
| Jon Bogert | 05-28-2001 07:24 PM |
Hmmm, yet another poorly defined rule I guess. What is the difference between an ultra-high resolution map prepared in advance and a tulip of the same corner prepared in advance?
| Dave_Clark | 05-28-2001 07:40 PM |
The difference is how could you draw an accurate tulip without first pre-running the course? If you tried to extropolate it from the map you wouldn't know what mileage to put it at. When you follow along with the map you don't use the odo at all. Sometimes you can lose your place on the map or maybe it doesn't look like the road. But it usually doesn't take long to find your place again if there is a crossroad or a sharp corner.
| Jon Bogert | 05-28-2001 07:59 PM |
So it's OK to have a map prepared by a third party, who has presumably seen the road, but It's not OK to prepare your own map, having seen the road?
You see where the conflict is here. The pacenotes analogy is very appropriate.
It just so happens I have DV of every stage of STPR. I could prepare a very useful, very high res (like every corner!) map from that video. Would that be allowed?
You see where the conflict is here. The pacenotes analogy is very appropriate.
It just so happens I have DV of every stage of STPR. I could prepare a very useful, very high res (like every corner!) map from that video. Would that be allowed?
| PURE EPI | 05-28-2001 09:17 PM |
I don't think so jon.. I think that any kind of prepared pace notes, I know you get a route book from SCCA, but if they brought a topographical map with them, they have to do all the work to extrapolate between the Terra Trip and the map with distances on it.... although, If it was thte FIA, i suppose they would have had a little probe.
| Dave_Clark | 05-28-2001 09:23 PM |
Pace notes are not maps. Rule 7.1.D states "Pace notes are defined as detailed notes on the route prepared in advance. Notes prepared during competition are not considered pace notes."
You are asking if a map you drew while watching an in car video would be considered pace notes. I think your point is valid that there is a fine line there. Watching the in-car video a hundred times just before the event is not prohibited (I've done it before!) Watching the in-car video and making pace notes that you use during the rally is prohibited. Something like "6L into 5R opens/C, 100" is definitely a big no no. Simple tulips prepared in advance would not be kosher either, I'm sure. A squiggly line drawn to approximate the course? Not so sure. Not so sure how helpful that would be, either. A map that anyone can buy in the store or get from the library is 100% legal. I think maybe that's the most important distinction, that anyone has the same access to it.
If you made copies of the map you prepared from your video and made them available to every driver in the rally then you might be able to pull that one off. But you would no doubt have to get approval from the organizers and the steward (and probably all the competitors) first.
[This message has been edited by DMS-USA (edited May 28, 2001).]
You are asking if a map you drew while watching an in car video would be considered pace notes. I think your point is valid that there is a fine line there. Watching the in-car video a hundred times just before the event is not prohibited (I've done it before!) Watching the in-car video and making pace notes that you use during the rally is prohibited. Something like "6L into 5R opens/C, 100" is definitely a big no no. Simple tulips prepared in advance would not be kosher either, I'm sure. A squiggly line drawn to approximate the course? Not so sure. Not so sure how helpful that would be, either. A map that anyone can buy in the store or get from the library is 100% legal. I think maybe that's the most important distinction, that anyone has the same access to it.
If you made copies of the map you prepared from your video and made them available to every driver in the rally then you might be able to pull that one off. But you would no doubt have to get approval from the organizers and the steward (and probably all the competitors) first.
[This message has been edited by DMS-USA (edited May 28, 2001).]
| Habu | 05-28-2001 09:57 PM |
Cessnas with F-16s.....hahahahahahaha [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img] [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img]
I love it!..........hey! I fly Cessnas! [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/mad.gif[/img] ...... :[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Gotta fly!
Skippy
I love it!..........hey! I fly Cessnas! [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/mad.gif[/img] ...... :[img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Gotta fly!
Skippy
| Shik | 05-29-2001 02:57 AM |
I thought the Impreza WRC was only $350,000 [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/wink.gif[/img]
I've been waiting to see a Subaru Works rally car in action since the early 90's. I may need a cold shower and a cigarette afterwards [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
I've been waiting to see a Subaru Works rally car in action since the early 90's. I may need a cold shower and a cigarette afterwards [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/smile.gif[/img]
| grimlock | 05-29-2001 06:16 AM |
350k is how much they sell one for after it's been used for two full WRC rallies. I think that price also includes the services of some Prodrive mechanics.
Ross N.
Ross N.
| cvalle-sd | 05-29-2001 02:41 PM |
-was that the price in pounds or dollars?
| grimlock | 05-29-2001 03:46 PM |
That would be 350,000USD. The actual rumor was a used WRC for 250,000 pounds.
Ross N.
Ross N.
| Shik | 05-30-2001 05:23 AM |
Ross, my bad, that [i]is[/i] the price for a used one. Yikes.
Still, I believe Lovell's car was said to not be a brand new 2001 44S WRC(despite it's looks), as it is using parts from the older WRC Imprezas. Still super expensive.
Getting back to the comments, this disturbs me a bit.
At least since I've been following US rallys, it's always been the same in Pro Rally, as with anything, the guys with money have the best shot.
Go back 3 years or so, when there were a few $30-40 Lancers and Tiburons and one particular Ford Cossie( [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) running the show. How could a guy similar to the likes of Dean Fry who is a hell of a driver using a 1990 Subaru Legacy LS even come close to competing with these other guys?!? And now these guys are a bit rattled by Subaru having a factory works team? Gimme a break.
Sure the gap between a factory works WRC-Spec Impreza compared to a $40,000 Lancer Evo RS may be alot more then the Lancer compared a 1990 Subaru Legacy, but the bottom line is the same. While they are in the same class, they are clearly two different classes of vehicles.
Besides, how many people have $40,000 laying around with nothing else to do with but go buy a rally car and proceed to beat the hell out it?! How can someone in Dean Fry's position(just using as an example, I don't know his financial situation) compete with that? That lancer is just as much out of reach to someone in his position as a factory works car is to some of the "Top" guys in the Pro Rally running $40,000 cars.
Maybe I don't have all the pieces to the puzzle and there is more to it then just the calibur of the cars that is topic of debate, but it just seems odd that people would comment now on stuff that has been going on for years.
Still, I believe Lovell's car was said to not be a brand new 2001 44S WRC(despite it's looks), as it is using parts from the older WRC Imprezas. Still super expensive.
Getting back to the comments, this disturbs me a bit.
At least since I've been following US rallys, it's always been the same in Pro Rally, as with anything, the guys with money have the best shot.
Go back 3 years or so, when there were a few $30-40 Lancers and Tiburons and one particular Ford Cossie( [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/frown.gif[/img] ) running the show. How could a guy similar to the likes of Dean Fry who is a hell of a driver using a 1990 Subaru Legacy LS even come close to competing with these other guys?!? And now these guys are a bit rattled by Subaru having a factory works team? Gimme a break.
Sure the gap between a factory works WRC-Spec Impreza compared to a $40,000 Lancer Evo RS may be alot more then the Lancer compared a 1990 Subaru Legacy, but the bottom line is the same. While they are in the same class, they are clearly two different classes of vehicles.
Besides, how many people have $40,000 laying around with nothing else to do with but go buy a rally car and proceed to beat the hell out it?! How can someone in Dean Fry's position(just using as an example, I don't know his financial situation) compete with that? That lancer is just as much out of reach to someone in his position as a factory works car is to some of the "Top" guys in the Pro Rally running $40,000 cars.
Maybe I don't have all the pieces to the puzzle and there is more to it then just the calibur of the cars that is topic of debate, but it just seems odd that people would comment now on stuff that has been going on for years.
| Zahnster | 05-30-2001 07:55 AM |
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Hyundai a works team?
Doesn't Mitsubishi offer some direct support to some of the more well known Lancer drivers?
Perhaps Subaru went full works and much $ to show their dislike of the lack of WRC stages in the US, so they figured they would start their own WRC effort in the US. They've sent a message to the other manufacturues in Pro Rally. Step up or get out! Perhaps there needs to be a new class for big $ manufacturer effors. Besides, economies of scale probably make it easier to run the Pro Rally team as close to WRC spec as possible. This way they've got a ready backup team of drivers, cars(mostly) and mechanics for the WRC team.
Doesn't Mitsubishi offer some direct support to some of the more well known Lancer drivers?
Perhaps Subaru went full works and much $ to show their dislike of the lack of WRC stages in the US, so they figured they would start their own WRC effort in the US. They've sent a message to the other manufacturues in Pro Rally. Step up or get out! Perhaps there needs to be a new class for big $ manufacturer effors. Besides, economies of scale probably make it easier to run the Pro Rally team as close to WRC spec as possible. This way they've got a ready backup team of drivers, cars(mostly) and mechanics for the WRC team.
| cvalle-sd | 05-30-2001 07:58 AM |
Plus, it's not as though Lovell isn't a better driver anyway. He is a Prodrive All-star, and former British Rally Champion. Yeah he's got a better car, but who wants to try to win in beater? He drove a Ford RS200 in the BRC - and he went home w/the silverware. Money does more things than no money.
| WagonMonster | 05-30-2001 08:25 AM |
Yeah like Chris said, don't forget, Lovell is an excellent driver, he would probably win driving Millen's car or the Hyundai or whatever. But having the best car there certianly does help. And bravo to Subaru for having the guts and vision to try to make Rally a real force in the United States!
Besides, I was talking to Mark Lovell yesterday and he said "William, if YOU had been driving my car, we would have won by 20 minutes!" [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
Besides, I was talking to Mark Lovell yesterday and he said "William, if YOU had been driving my car, we would have won by 20 minutes!" [img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lildevil.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/lol.gif[/img][img]http://www.i-club.com/ubb-files/smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
| Zahnster | 05-30-2001 02:31 PM |
How about Subaru/Prodrives impression of ROTWR?
[url="http://www.swrt.com/newsletter7/subaru_america.htm"]http://www.swrt.com/newsletter7/subaru_america.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.swrt.com/newsletter7/subaru_america.htm"]http://www.swrt.com/newsletter7/subaru_america.htm[/url]
| Dave_Clark | 05-30-2001 11:49 PM |
The Hyundai team is not exactly a works team. John Buffum's Libra Racing runs the team with support from Hyundai USA. The budget is probably far less than you think.
The only Mitsubishi driver with any direct support from the U.S. importer is Rhys Millen. The involvement is low this year as they are only doing 2 or 3 ProRally events. Their main thrust is Pikes Peak. Next year they should get more heavily involved.
Subaru USA and Prodrive are spending dozens of times more money than any other team in North America this year. The Subaru Canada Rally Team budget is dwarfed by comparison and we're running three cars, not just two.
Subaru USA/Prodrive's goal is to win (dominate, really.) At any cost.
The only Mitsubishi driver with any direct support from the U.S. importer is Rhys Millen. The involvement is low this year as they are only doing 2 or 3 ProRally events. Their main thrust is Pikes Peak. Next year they should get more heavily involved.
Subaru USA and Prodrive are spending dozens of times more money than any other team in North America this year. The Subaru Canada Rally Team budget is dwarfed by comparison and we're running three cars, not just two.
Subaru USA/Prodrive's goal is to win (dominate, really.) At any cost.
| 10th Warrior | 05-31-2001 09:03 AM |
i personally think its great that subaru is stepping up the level of competion in the ProRally. it is "pro" after all. maybe the lower budget people will have to stay in club rally longer to develop their skills before entering the pro enviornment. also, keep in mind that as competion gets better and more people (fans) are attracted to the sport and we get a WRC event again, then guess what, more companies are going to be willing to sponser rally teams, thus enabling people such as my self who don't have the money that subaru has to get it from sponsers. do you really think Tide has anything to do with NASCAR? hell, most of the fans probably don't have a washing machine, but its on a high enough level and attracts enough people that large companies are willing to throw money at teams for advertising. keep that in mind when you worry about the little guy and also remember that racing is, unfortunately, a rich mans sport.
| Jon Bogert | 05-31-2001 10:43 AM |
There isn't much that's "Pro" about ProRally. ProRally is and always has been regular guys in fun cars out racing in the woods. Are you saying that completely changing a sucessful existing series to the detriment of it's many loyal participants is justified because of it's name???
Actually, the SCCA can do whatever they want, as they OWN the ProRally name. The real question is whether the new strategy will be accepted by the 150+ disenfranchised current ProRallyists, the organizers who pay all the bills but get none of the rights, and the hundreds of volunteers that work for free to make the events happen.
Think about it this way--Michael Schumacher shows up at your next autocross with a note from the SCCA putting him and his Ferrari in your class. Fun to watch the first time, but you'd get pretty pissed off if your class became the F1 car class without anyone asking your opinion.
Actually, the SCCA can do whatever they want, as they OWN the ProRally name. The real question is whether the new strategy will be accepted by the 150+ disenfranchised current ProRallyists, the organizers who pay all the bills but get none of the rights, and the hundreds of volunteers that work for free to make the events happen.
Think about it this way--Michael Schumacher shows up at your next autocross with a note from the SCCA putting him and his Ferrari in your class. Fun to watch the first time, but you'd get pretty pissed off if your class became the F1 car class without anyone asking your opinion.
| grimlock | 05-31-2001 11:00 AM |
Jon, not to detract from what you're saying, because I kinda agree with you and think there needs to be a new class for works entries, but I'd pay money to watch Schumie wrestle an F1 car through a tight autox course. That would be an awesome sight.
| Jon Bogert | 05-31-2001 11:32 AM |
Hehehe--yeah, I'd pay to see that, too.
I don't think there's a single successful amateur series where the series organizers are actively trying to make it LESS competitive. Except SCCA ProRally. When I first got involved seven years ago (I'm a relative newbie) it was commonplace to see an inspired driver in a homebuilt car run within a few % of the factory backed Hyundais. Lovell beat the next fastest car by almost 10% on the first couple of stages, before he backed-off. That's probably 20% faster than the bulk of the field--a ridiculous margin in rallying. I hope I'm not the only one appalled by Subaru's gloating press release.
I don't think there's a single successful amateur series where the series organizers are actively trying to make it LESS competitive. Except SCCA ProRally. When I first got involved seven years ago (I'm a relative newbie) it was commonplace to see an inspired driver in a homebuilt car run within a few % of the factory backed Hyundais. Lovell beat the next fastest car by almost 10% on the first couple of stages, before he backed-off. That's probably 20% faster than the bulk of the field--a ridiculous margin in rallying. I hope I'm not the only one appalled by Subaru's gloating press release.
| WagonMonster | 05-31-2001 11:58 AM |
I think Subaru's point was to encourage other manufacturers to step in and really sponsor cars, thus bringing the SCCA Rallies to a whole new level of competitiveness.
| grimlock | 05-31-2001 03:34 PM |
You know, Jon, I just looked at the leg scores from RIM for the first time. The data for legs 4 and 6 are pretty eye-opening.
Percentage differences between the drivers for stage 4 go 10%/1%/0%/2%/2%/1%/0%/1%.
That's a pretty tight front pack if you drop the mad dog out in front. Man, Cherokee Trails needs to hurry up and come around again. I NEED to see this car run.
Ross N.
Percentage differences between the drivers for stage 4 go 10%/1%/0%/2%/2%/1%/0%/1%.
That's a pretty tight front pack if you drop the mad dog out in front. Man, Cherokee Trails needs to hurry up and come around again. I NEED to see this car run.
Ross N.
| Zahnster | 06-01-2001 12:09 AM |
For those of you who missed out on the Press Stage at ROTWR:
The head of the SCCA was highly encouraged about the increased involvement of Subaru and made a pretty aggressive statement along the lines of "We will have the best Rally program in the world by 2004". I might have the year wrong, but that was pretty much what he said. Perhaps he sees increased manufacturer support as a very good thing. It sounds to me like he wants to take on FIA and the WRC.
The head of the SCCA was highly encouraged about the increased involvement of Subaru and made a pretty aggressive statement along the lines of "We will have the best Rally program in the world by 2004". I might have the year wrong, but that was pretty much what he said. Perhaps he sees increased manufacturer support as a very good thing. It sounds to me like he wants to take on FIA and the WRC.
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