| ewright | 06-12-2005 04:37 PM |
running a wide track in front is advantageous?
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hi everyone,
someone recently mentioned to me that some japanese tuners run a wider rim/tire combo on the front axle on AWD cars and that this yields a substantial improvement in cornering grip. does anyone know if this is true? If so, can someone currently running such a setup comment on the performance benefit? thanks in advance for any help or advice you may be able to offer.
ernie
someone recently mentioned to me that some japanese tuners run a wider rim/tire combo on the front axle on AWD cars and that this yields a substantial improvement in cornering grip. does anyone know if this is true? If so, can someone currently running such a setup comment on the performance benefit? thanks in advance for any help or advice you may be able to offer.
ernie
| Patrick Olsen | 06-12-2005 07:33 PM |
A wider front track will give the car more grip up front, yes. Whether anyone has actually tried that here to give you actual feedback, probably not.
If one were to attempt this I would do it either using different wheel offsets or wheel spacers. You still want the same size tires to keep the AWD diffs happy, but you could change the tracks front and rear by using spacers or the same wheel with different offsets.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
If one were to attempt this I would do it either using different wheel offsets or wheel spacers. You still want the same size tires to keep the AWD diffs happy, but you could change the tracks front and rear by using spacers or the same wheel with different offsets.
Pat Olsen
'97 Legacy 2.5GT sedan
| Dave Can't Put His Business Name Here | 06-12-2005 07:34 PM |
yup agreed what Pat said.
| ewright | 06-12-2005 07:38 PM |
Pat,
Thanks for the tips!
Ernie
Thanks for the tips!
Ernie
| ChrisL2 | 06-12-2005 08:16 PM |
There are a few threads in this section about it already (search wider front tires)
I read the article your talking about where they mentioned using wider tires on the front, however, I never seen any vehicle stats where that is seen (except on FWD vehicles)
I've seen them use wider wheels on the front, but that is about it.
You could get away with different sized tires if you wanted, for example, 225/45-17 and 255/40-17 are close enough in diameter, that shaving one of them slightly would allow you to use them with no problem.
I haven't run anything different, except on my FWD car, and that was over 5 years ago.
Here is a thread with some more info: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770803&highlight=wider+front+tires[/url]
I read the article your talking about where they mentioned using wider tires on the front, however, I never seen any vehicle stats where that is seen (except on FWD vehicles)
I've seen them use wider wheels on the front, but that is about it.
You could get away with different sized tires if you wanted, for example, 225/45-17 and 255/40-17 are close enough in diameter, that shaving one of them slightly would allow you to use them with no problem.
I haven't run anything different, except on my FWD car, and that was over 5 years ago.
Here is a thread with some more info: [url]http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=770803&highlight=wider+front+tires[/url]
| Scoobie Doogie | 06-12-2005 08:55 PM |
Would running smaller dia tires in the front of a WRX burn up the diff quickly? I was thinking of an experiment when I ran my WRX but never did it. The idea was to have the diff push power to the rear since the fronts were spinning slightly faster.
Dave
Dave
| cooleyjb | 06-12-2005 10:55 PM |
Mark Daddio is running a wider front narrower back setup on his Evo in SM. The diameters are pretty much identical so he can do it. The diamters are the key, they must be the same. And since Daddio is still running it after a few events it must be a good idea.
Also makofoto on here is running a wider front track on his wagon in SM
Also makofoto on here is running a wider front track on his wagon in SM
| drivrswntd | 06-12-2005 11:05 PM |
I am running wider wheels in the front, but not tires. Definitly helps elimate understeer in the car and helps it turn in better. i havent played with different tire sizes though.
| Subdued | 06-13-2005 09:05 AM |
When dealing with a rigid Kart chassis, widening the front track will help to reduce understeer. This is commonly done by adding wheel spacers. Changing the front tire foot print by using a wider wheel is a different issue. I have only read articles where they simply used a narrower then optimum wheel in the rear to slightly decrease the tire foot print and reduce grip. It is probably a little more complex then that and tire width was limited.
| ITWRX4ME | 06-13-2005 02:17 PM |
I wonder how a wider offset would affect the hub flexion. Would it reduce the leverage of the wheel against the hub or make it worse?
I could see how a wider offset would transmit more force on the hub from bumps. But would the cornering load at the hub change?
I could see how a wider offset would transmit more force on the hub from bumps. But would the cornering load at the hub change?
| Storm | 06-13-2005 04:33 PM |
Just know that while the grip is increased at the end with the wider track...Our bearings will pay the price.
But it does work very well.
Jay Storm
But it does work very well.
Jay Storm
| coolcougar | 07-02-2007 03:03 AM |
Is it safe to assume that the use of a Cusco Tarmac open center diff would open the options of running different sized tires front and rear? If so what (if any) advantages could be gained from this?
| Storm | 07-02-2007 06:43 AM |
Not really. The 35/65% bias built into the cusco unit will go out the window when the diameters are different front to rear. It may stand up to it for awhile, but the designed bias will not stay the same.
[quote=coolcougar;18585253]Is it safe to assume that the use of a Cusco Tarmac open center diff would open the options of running different sized tires front and rear? If so what (if any) advantages could be gained from this?[/quote]
Some offroad racing trucks use different sizes front/rear or even different drive ratios to change the bias in an attempt to tailor power delivery for a particular setup or driving style.
Oh yeah....holy bump from the dead!:lol:
Jay Storm
[quote=coolcougar;18585253]Is it safe to assume that the use of a Cusco Tarmac open center diff would open the options of running different sized tires front and rear? If so what (if any) advantages could be gained from this?[/quote]
Some offroad racing trucks use different sizes front/rear or even different drive ratios to change the bias in an attempt to tailor power delivery for a particular setup or driving style.
Oh yeah....holy bump from the dead!:lol:
Jay Storm
| Turn in Concepts | 07-02-2007 08:36 AM |
I use spacers on the front of my wrx for this reason. Adds a bit of front grip, but not nearly as much as a ball joint extender kit.
Tony
Tony
| 555ideways | 07-02-2007 10:02 AM |
[QUOTE=Turn in Concepts;18586052]I use spacers on the front of my wrx for this reason. Adds a bit of front grip, but not nearly as much as a ball joint extender kit.
Tony[/QUOTE]
subtle but shameless :lol: :p
Tony[/QUOTE]
subtle but shameless :lol: :p
| 555ideways | 07-02-2007 10:03 AM |
i've heard this is getting populaur with the T2 Evos. They are running a spacer up front to widen the track.
| bdi | 07-03-2007 08:22 AM |
[QUOTE=Turn in Concepts;18586052]I use spacers on the front of my wrx for this reason. Adds a bit of front grip, but not nearly as much as a ball joint extender kit.
Tony[/QUOTE]
How would running a big fsb's (29mm or 32mm) play into this added front grip? Since widening the front track of a car with wheel spacers will reduce the effect (rate) of the fsb. Some type of testing would need to be done on a skid pad to really tune in the correct size fsb and front track width.
Tony[/QUOTE]
How would running a big fsb's (29mm or 32mm) play into this added front grip? Since widening the front track of a car with wheel spacers will reduce the effect (rate) of the fsb. Some type of testing would need to be done on a skid pad to really tune in the correct size fsb and front track width.
| ChrisL2 | 07-03-2007 09:06 AM |
I've been considering running 5mm spacers on the front with the stock STi wheels for the longest time. I just never got around to doing it. Partially because I wanted to get longer wheel studs also.
| bdi | 07-03-2007 09:29 AM |
[QUOTE=ChrisL2;18597873]I've been considering running 5mm spacers on the front with the stock STi wheels for the longest time. I just never got around to doing it. Partially because I wanted to get longer wheel studs also.[/QUOTE]
Think your ok up to 5mm with the stock wheel studs. Anything bigger and you will need longer ones.
Think your ok up to 5mm with the stock wheel studs. Anything bigger and you will need longer ones.
| remowgn | 07-03-2007 05:11 PM |
[QUOTE=bdi;18598029]Think your ok up to 5mm with the stock wheel studs. Anything bigger and you will need longer ones.[/QUOTE]
5mm is really pushing it. You're better off sticking with 3mm ones if you are going to be tracking the car, due to the forces in play. At that point you'd have a REALLY tough time seeing a difference. You're better off getting one of the 10mm spacer kits that includes studs if you really want to widen the track.
I noticed a difference when I went to USDM sti control arms on my wagon. Of course they also gave me a couple degrees more caster, so I can't completely isolate the effect of the track width increase.
5mm is really pushing it. You're better off sticking with 3mm ones if you are going to be tracking the car, due to the forces in play. At that point you'd have a REALLY tough time seeing a difference. You're better off getting one of the 10mm spacer kits that includes studs if you really want to widen the track.
I noticed a difference when I went to USDM sti control arms on my wagon. Of course they also gave me a couple degrees more caster, so I can't completely isolate the effect of the track width increase.
| gold rush | 07-03-2007 06:20 PM |
[QUOTE=remowgn;18603270]5mm is really pushing it. You're better off sticking with 3mm ones if you are going to be tracking the car, due to the forces in play. At that point you'd have a REALLY tough time seeing a difference. You're better off getting one of the 10mm spacer kits that includes studs if you really want to widen the track.
I noticed a difference when I went to USDM sti control arms on my wagon. Of course they also gave me a couple degrees more caster, so I can't completely isolate the effect of the track width increase.[/QUOTE]
Did you have to run sedan fenders to make arms fit? More caster, width and likely camber thats a great idea.
I noticed a difference when I went to USDM sti control arms on my wagon. Of course they also gave me a couple degrees more caster, so I can't completely isolate the effect of the track width increase.[/QUOTE]
Did you have to run sedan fenders to make arms fit? More caster, width and likely camber thats a great idea.
| makofoto | 07-04-2007 02:13 AM |
I used 15 mm spacers at the front of my Wagon ... before going to 10 mm wider Sedan A arms. No problem with the Wagon fenders ... but I was using first 10 and then 12K springs to keep the fenders off the tires. Increasing your track is akin to lowering the car suspension wise. Combined with R tires ... I did need new bearings up front, after quite a few 100 runs ... that was to be expected.
15 mm spacers up front ... needed more Camber in rear to balance it. Lots of Snap Oversteer!
[IMG]http://images8.fotki.com/v123/photos/4/43793/1471298/MakoRearCamber-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images7.fotki.com/v122/photos/4/43793/1471298/MakoOverSteer-vi.jpg[/IMG]
15 mm spacers in front, 5 mm spacers in back with 245/40/17 Hoosiers
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v165/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoSatUpHill-vi.jpg[/IMG]
15 mm spacers up front ... needed more Camber in rear to balance it. Lots of Snap Oversteer!
[IMG]http://images8.fotki.com/v123/photos/4/43793/1471298/MakoRearCamber-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images7.fotki.com/v122/photos/4/43793/1471298/MakoOverSteer-vi.jpg[/IMG]
15 mm spacers in front, 5 mm spacers in back with 245/40/17 Hoosiers
[IMG]http://images9.fotki.com/v165/photos/4/43793/1961534/MakoSatUpHill-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| makofoto | 07-04-2007 02:18 AM |
+ 10 mm WRX sedan A arms on Wagon, street tires:
[IMG]http://images24.fotki.com/v797/photos/4/43793/2786343/RearMakoLift-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images24.fotki.com/v797/photos/4/43793/2786343/RearMakoLift-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| makofoto | 07-04-2007 02:23 AM |
Close but no rubbing, with 12K springs in front, 15 mm spacers in front, 5 in back:
[IMG]http://images108.fotki.com/v617/photos/4/43793/2687469/MakobyAlbert8_05-vi.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://images108.fotki.com/v617/photos/4/43793/2687469/MakobyAlbert8_05-vi.jpg[/IMG]
| remowgn | 07-04-2007 02:46 AM |
[QUOTE=gold rush;18604030]Did you have to run sedan fenders to make arms fit? More caster, width and likely camber thats a great idea.[/QUOTE]
Nope, no fender mods, as mako said. I am getting some light rubbing with 235/45's now, but I didn't rub at all with 235/40's. I'll likely be switching back to that for my next set of tires.
Nope, no fender mods, as mako said. I am getting some light rubbing with 235/45's now, but I didn't rub at all with 235/40's. I'll likely be switching back to that for my next set of tires.
| Kostamojen | 07-04-2007 02:53 AM |
Old thread...
A few of us GC folk have and do actually run wider front tracks via GD control arms.
A few of us GC folk have and do actually run wider front tracks via GD control arms.
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