| Ferg | 10-03-2006 04:11 PM |
Should the WRC pay points on a daily basis?
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Something Colin McRae said in a Q&A about his upcoming drive with Kronos...
[QUOTE]...Petter [Solberg] is usually there or thereabouts until he has a problem...[/QUOTE]
Nothing new there obviously, but it made me think what would happen to the sport if they started paying out championship points at the end of each leg rather than the end of the rally. A driver who finishes well on day one and day two but throws it into the trees on the last day could still walk away with a handful of points.
Would it work?
Would it result in closer fights in the championship?
Your thoughts please.
:)
[QUOTE]...Petter [Solberg] is usually there or thereabouts until he has a problem...[/QUOTE]
Nothing new there obviously, but it made me think what would happen to the sport if they started paying out championship points at the end of each leg rather than the end of the rally. A driver who finishes well on day one and day two but throws it into the trees on the last day could still walk away with a handful of points.
Would it work?
Would it result in closer fights in the championship?
Your thoughts please.
:)
| LastResort | 10-03-2006 04:14 PM |
Nah, I think there needs to be an emphasis on crossing the finish line. I've not been impressed with the Super Rally rules as it is. As much as I'd like to see SWRT and Petter win, I want it to be in a solid platform, with a solid run.
| bjorn240 | 10-03-2006 04:17 PM |
That's just SupeRally under another name. SuperAlly, perhaps?
[IMG]http://www.craiguk.co.uk/webrfc/images/players/mcoist.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.craiguk.co.uk/webrfc/images/players/mcoist.jpg[/IMG]
| chaddeus | 10-03-2006 04:18 PM |
humm.. celebration everday and one final bigger celebration on the last day... The idea is good and make sense to me but I think its better to have the overall winner.
- Charles
- Charles
| mykrrrr | 10-03-2006 04:21 PM |
No...you shouldn't be allowed to score ANY points if you don't finish either day of a round of the WRC...no manu points, no driver's points, nothing, nada.
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.
| StuBeck | 10-03-2006 07:27 PM |
No, superrally didn't work and I hope they still want to take it out of the championship.
| XenoWolf | 10-03-2006 09:38 PM |
No, and get rid of ThuperRally.
| Protege Menace | 10-03-2006 10:08 PM |
anyone can go all out in a car.
but to go all out and keep the car in one piece for 3 days, that guy deserves credit.
sadly, loeb is that guy.
but to go all out and keep the car in one piece for 3 days, that guy deserves credit.
sadly, loeb is that guy.
| Jeff B | 10-03-2006 10:58 PM |
[B]I am all for giving daily rally points.[/B] IMO, one of the biggest problems in WRC is the lack of factory involvement and consequently, factory rides. Basically, to make exciting racing, we need lots of top teams, cars and drivers competing against each other.
Unfortunately, the current WRC system- high DNF rates- means that most teams, especially the "lessor" teams are going to DNF or not get a result. The result of this- the factories ask "why are we spending money on this", they quit and talented drivers cannot get a real ride.
IMO, a race that does a better job of this is the Tour De France. In one race (yes, a long one), they have daily winners, overall winners, sprinting titles, juniour titles and climbing titles. While it is a bit confusing to a new viewer, this system gives many more riders and teams a compelling reason to be involved. It also gives the viewers a reason to pay attention every day. (Now if they could fix their drug lab problems.)
If I had my way, I would award results for a "daily" title (maybe call it the sprint or something), an "event" (what we have now; endurance?) and a combined title.
Again, just IMO
J
Unfortunately, the current WRC system- high DNF rates- means that most teams, especially the "lessor" teams are going to DNF or not get a result. The result of this- the factories ask "why are we spending money on this", they quit and talented drivers cannot get a real ride.
IMO, a race that does a better job of this is the Tour De France. In one race (yes, a long one), they have daily winners, overall winners, sprinting titles, juniour titles and climbing titles. While it is a bit confusing to a new viewer, this system gives many more riders and teams a compelling reason to be involved. It also gives the viewers a reason to pay attention every day. (Now if they could fix their drug lab problems.)
If I had my way, I would award results for a "daily" title (maybe call it the sprint or something), an "event" (what we have now; endurance?) and a combined title.
Again, just IMO
J
| Jeff B | 10-03-2006 11:07 PM |
As to your questions....
[QUOTE=Ferg;15478905]
Would it work?
Would it result in closer fights in the championship?
Your thoughts please.
:)[/QUOTE]
It could and would work, and it would not cheapen the sport in any way, shape or form.
Yes, but even better, it could allow two or three tight championship title races. (Peter or Markus might blow the overall, but have a chance in the sprint or whatever they want to call it.)
Think of it this way, wouldn't most manufactures want three times the oppurtunity to be able to call their car "a winner and/ or champion in the world's toughest auto race." (Yeah, there may be some discussion on whether it is as tough as Dakar or F1, but the point is the same.)
I'm going to lay off the coffee....
J
[QUOTE=Ferg;15478905]
Would it work?
Would it result in closer fights in the championship?
Your thoughts please.
:)[/QUOTE]
It could and would work, and it would not cheapen the sport in any way, shape or form.
Yes, but even better, it could allow two or three tight championship title races. (Peter or Markus might blow the overall, but have a chance in the sprint or whatever they want to call it.)
Think of it this way, wouldn't most manufactures want three times the oppurtunity to be able to call their car "a winner and/ or champion in the world's toughest auto race." (Yeah, there may be some discussion on whether it is as tough as Dakar or F1, but the point is the same.)
I'm going to lay off the coffee....
J
| LastResort | 10-03-2006 11:21 PM |
Then why 3 day races, why not have 3 one day races? It would fundamentally change the sport from being a test of car/drive skill and endurance.
| bjorn240 | 10-03-2006 11:45 PM |
Yay, we won a stage! We're champions! Yay!
| Jeff B | 10-04-2006 12:56 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15484597]Yay, we won a stage! We're champions! Yay![/QUOTE]
Edited
Edited
| Jeff B | 10-04-2006 01:00 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15484597]Yay, we won a stage! We're champions! Yay![/QUOTE]
I noticed you list 2006 Open Class. Just wondering if you think rally racing is doing well, whether WRC or in the US?
I noticed you list 2006 Open Class. Just wondering if you think rally racing is doing well, whether WRC or in the US?
| LastResort | 10-04-2006 01:05 AM |
[QUOTE=Jeff B;15485331]I noticed you list 2006 Open Class. Just wondering if you think rally racing is doing well, whether WRC or in the US?[/QUOTE]
Pssst, he's one half of this:
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG]
Pssst, he's one half of this:
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG]
| mykrrrr | 10-04-2006 05:04 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15484597]Yay, we won a stage! We're champions! Yay![/QUOTE]
:lol: [golf claps @ Christian] :p
:lol: [golf claps @ Christian] :p
| Weasel 555 | 10-04-2006 08:07 AM |
[QUOTE=LastResort;15485391]Pssst, he's one half of this:
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
great photo :)
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
great photo :)
| Weasel 555 | 10-04-2006 08:09 AM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr;15479066]No...you shouldn't be allowed to score ANY points if you don't finish either day of a round of the WRC...no manu points, no driver's points, nothing, nada.
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.[/QUOTE]
12345
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.[/QUOTE]
12345
| bjorn240 | 10-04-2006 09:07 AM |
[QUOTE=Jeff B;15485331]I noticed you list 2006 Open Class. Just wondering if you think rally racing is doing well, whether WRC or in the US?[/QUOTE]
Sorry for coming off as regarding the problem lightly - it's just I've probably discussed it 100 times in the last year...
I think rallying is doing ok, but I agree with your implied assertion that more manufacturer participation would be a good thing.
However, I'm not convinced that SupeRally or its derivatives are the key to making that happen. If you compare the manufacturer participation in the late nineties in WRC with today, you'll see that the WRC in those days had greater manufacturer participation, and did not have a SupeRally scheme, so I'm not convinced that SupeRally is all that it's cracked up to be. I think manufacturers are drawn in by the overall marketing potential of the series, not specific regulations.
As to whether SupeRally increases that marketing potential -- while I can see the argument that the fans do like to see the top drivers competing on Sundays (imagine the Sunday field in Mexico without SupeRally this year), I do think that this problem is self-fulfilling -- if I can go off without much of a penalty, I'm incented to push harder and go faster, and am thus more likely to go off. If the reward to finishing the rally are much greater, I have to be prepared to be a bit more mechanically sympathetic to the car. In other words, if you added a significant bonus for making it through the whole event, would people more frequently do so?
And lastly, as a rally fan, I can totally understand the suspicion that surrounds the fact that under SupeRally regulations, a moderately well-driven WRC car that's crashed twice, can beat a well-driven Gr.N car that made it through the whole rally. It is supposed to be one event, after all.
But I could be convinced to score each day, if there were a substantial bonus for finishing the whole rally; maybe something like 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 each day, with a 20 point bonus for finishing the rally, and just to mix it up, 1 point for each stage win. That'd be kind of NASCAR and neat.
Cheers,
- Christian
Sorry for coming off as regarding the problem lightly - it's just I've probably discussed it 100 times in the last year...
I think rallying is doing ok, but I agree with your implied assertion that more manufacturer participation would be a good thing.
However, I'm not convinced that SupeRally or its derivatives are the key to making that happen. If you compare the manufacturer participation in the late nineties in WRC with today, you'll see that the WRC in those days had greater manufacturer participation, and did not have a SupeRally scheme, so I'm not convinced that SupeRally is all that it's cracked up to be. I think manufacturers are drawn in by the overall marketing potential of the series, not specific regulations.
As to whether SupeRally increases that marketing potential -- while I can see the argument that the fans do like to see the top drivers competing on Sundays (imagine the Sunday field in Mexico without SupeRally this year), I do think that this problem is self-fulfilling -- if I can go off without much of a penalty, I'm incented to push harder and go faster, and am thus more likely to go off. If the reward to finishing the rally are much greater, I have to be prepared to be a bit more mechanically sympathetic to the car. In other words, if you added a significant bonus for making it through the whole event, would people more frequently do so?
And lastly, as a rally fan, I can totally understand the suspicion that surrounds the fact that under SupeRally regulations, a moderately well-driven WRC car that's crashed twice, can beat a well-driven Gr.N car that made it through the whole rally. It is supposed to be one event, after all.
But I could be convinced to score each day, if there were a substantial bonus for finishing the whole rally; maybe something like 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1 each day, with a 20 point bonus for finishing the rally, and just to mix it up, 1 point for each stage win. That'd be kind of NASCAR and neat.
Cheers,
- Christian
| bjorn240 | 10-04-2006 09:08 AM |
[QUOTE=LastResort;15485391]Pssst, he's one half of this:
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That looks like Rim of the World 2006, in which case it's Travis and Jakke Honkanen. But nice photo, regardless! :)
[IMG]http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/8097/travis20on20stagemt0.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
That looks like Rim of the World 2006, in which case it's Travis and Jakke Honkanen. But nice photo, regardless! :)
| OBShahn | 10-04-2006 09:13 AM |
There are drivers in the WRC that understand to finish first you must first Finish.
Look at Stohl. Not blistering by any means but a solid poitns scorer because he doesn't go off the road.
If you award points on a daily basis (just like this bonus points nonsense for next year) you all but eliminate the strategy and mental aspect of the event. Currently because of the structure of the event and the closeness of the championship you have to drive at 110% all the time. I don't have a problem with that leading to high attrition, it should. Drivers and teams make the decision for how much they attack and what risks they take, they should have to live with the full consequences of those decisions.
Oh and I do support SuperRally for manufacturers championship points only with a steeper penalty than is currently inplace. Drivers are the ones that went off the road but the service guys are the ones that made it road worthy again...
Look at Stohl. Not blistering by any means but a solid poitns scorer because he doesn't go off the road.
If you award points on a daily basis (just like this bonus points nonsense for next year) you all but eliminate the strategy and mental aspect of the event. Currently because of the structure of the event and the closeness of the championship you have to drive at 110% all the time. I don't have a problem with that leading to high attrition, it should. Drivers and teams make the decision for how much they attack and what risks they take, they should have to live with the full consequences of those decisions.
Oh and I do support SuperRally for manufacturers championship points only with a steeper penalty than is currently inplace. Drivers are the ones that went off the road but the service guys are the ones that made it road worthy again...
| LastResort | 10-04-2006 09:34 AM |
[QUOTE=bjorn240;15487496]That looks like Rim of the World 2006, in which case it's Travis and Jakke Honkanen. But nice photo, regardless! :)[/QUOTE]Dammit, I even can't suck up properly. :mad: :lol:
| rallymaniac | 10-04-2006 10:41 AM |
[QUOTE=mykrrrr;15479066]No...you shouldn't be allowed to score ANY points if you don't finish either day of a round of the WRC...no manu points, no driver's points, nothing, nada.
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.[/QUOTE]
Exactly,
Let's not turn it into NASCAR. I hate the SuperRally with it's "arcade style" unlimited life and ability to restart after you wreck. This creates paranoid situations like one this year when Loeb had an "off", didn't finish the stage and restarted following day to finish 2nd overall. Sorry but that's just stupid.
This is the beauty of rally, if you suck as a driver, you break the car, if you suck as a manufacturer, your car breaks. Look at F1, there is 30% car every race that don't finish. They're not complaining :rolleyes:
You should be able to run the car and use it as a test to improve next time but no points regardless of who you are, what team you are or what car you drive.[/QUOTE]
Exactly,
Let's not turn it into NASCAR. I hate the SuperRally with it's "arcade style" unlimited life and ability to restart after you wreck. This creates paranoid situations like one this year when Loeb had an "off", didn't finish the stage and restarted following day to finish 2nd overall. Sorry but that's just stupid.
This is the beauty of rally, if you suck as a driver, you break the car, if you suck as a manufacturer, your car breaks. Look at F1, there is 30% car every race that don't finish. They're not complaining :rolleyes:
| Jeff B | 10-04-2006 10:42 AM |
bjorn240,
Thanks for answering my question, especially since you seem to get this question a lot. I do not visit the competition threads often, so it was the first time I saw it posted. As a rally fan, I just want to see the sport grow (US TV coverage beyond the X games would be a good start), and I think some signficant changes are needed for that.
Do you race any of the Colorado rallies? I'll look you up.
J
Thanks for answering my question, especially since you seem to get this question a lot. I do not visit the competition threads often, so it was the first time I saw it posted. As a rally fan, I just want to see the sport grow (US TV coverage beyond the X games would be a good start), and I think some signficant changes are needed for that.
Do you race any of the Colorado rallies? I'll look you up.
J
| Yotsuya | 10-04-2006 10:46 AM |
The purist in my agrees with Mike's view that a rally is all about finishing each stage of the event. Monte Carlo this year would have been a total farce (or more of one that it was) if Loeb had won the event after failing to complete the first day. Of course, that purist also wants to see more endurance events and longer rallies; the RAC in 1985 had 65 stages and we're lucky to see twenty in the WRC or the US. And don't get me started on the cars themselves.
But this is about points, and I don't think a per stage award works even if anyone finishing the rally will socre more points than a team that won every stage but the final one and ended up in a cow pasture. As it stands rally is about strategy across stages, and tossing in points per stage would change that balance.
Is change always good? The older I get the harder it is to convince me...
But this is about points, and I don't think a per stage award works even if anyone finishing the rally will socre more points than a team that won every stage but the final one and ended up in a cow pasture. As it stands rally is about strategy across stages, and tossing in points per stage would change that balance.
Is change always good? The older I get the harder it is to convince me...
| bjorn240 | 10-04-2006 10:48 AM |
[QUOTE=Jeff B;15488525]Do you race any of the Colorado rallies? I'll look you up.[/QUOTE]
Travis and I just ran Colorado Cog the weekend of September 23-24.
I don't expect to run anything else in Colorado until Cog next year, however. For 2006, Travis and I are only running the Rally America national series events, plus X Games.
Travis and I just ran Colorado Cog the weekend of September 23-24.
I don't expect to run anything else in Colorado until Cog next year, however. For 2006, Travis and I are only running the Rally America national series events, plus X Games.
| bjorn240 | 10-04-2006 10:52 AM |
[QUOTE=Yotsuya;15488592]Of course, that purist also wants to see more endurance events and longer rallies; the RAC in 1985 had 65 stages and we're lucky to see twenty in the WRC or the US.[/QUOTE]
David Whittock, who was the team director of the David Sutton team that ran Stig and Ana last year, was the clerk-of-the-course of that rally. What a feat!
- Christian
David Whittock, who was the team director of the David Sutton team that ran Stig and Ana last year, was the clerk-of-the-course of that rally. What a feat!
- Christian
| greg donovan | 10-04-2006 11:11 AM |
what about doing like they did on the x games and have the time gaps compressed before the final super special?
that would make for a great show.
that would make for a great show.
| Weasel 555 | 10-04-2006 11:12 AM |
ref : David Sutton Cars won the WRC in '81 with Ari Vatenen and non other than the owner of Prodrive as co driver David Richards.
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