| Kostamojen | 07-05-2003 03:38 AM |
What happens when your local Auto-x venues get greedy...
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Here in Sacramento we have been having venue problems with our autocrossing this year. It actually started two years ago when Mather AFB, the primary Autocross location was put back into operation after September 11th. Then last year, McClellen AFB, which is now a private sector area where the autocross location was actually a large parking lot, decided that we could no longer use their facilities. (never found out why exactly)
That left us with Cal Expo, the California state fairgrounds parking lot which has long been used as an Autocross arena in this area (along with the other two, so this is all relativly recent).
Anyhow, after the first two events in march, Cal Expo withdrew all contracts for the rest of the YEAR! :eek: Needless to say this was a shock, and its taken this long to even find out whats going on and for the local SCCA to find another venue... There were actually 3 organizations autocrossing here as of last year, SCCA, CSCC, and AAS (American Autocross Series), but AAS moved down south to Atwater south of Stockton (about 70-80 miles from here). And the new SCCA venue is in Stockton itself, 60 miles or so. Here is what it says on the Sacramento SCCA website about this:
[quote]For the record: Members of the Board met with representatives of CALEXPO to discuss the cancellation of events and determine if any corrective measures could be established to resume our program. The fact is CALEXPO earns $2,000 a weekend from us and when the facility is used for parking CALEXPO revenues are $30,000 per weekend with the same level of effort by their staff in planning and organization. It just wasn't worth it to do the autocross thing. CALEXPO had no other complaints.[/quote]
(web site -> [url]http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/Sacramento/[/url] )
So basically Cal Expo decided it wasnt worth it for use to use the facility, despite the fact that this is an overflow lot that we use and hardly EVER in use...
Im just peeved about all this... Its now either drive to the EXTREMELY crowded Bay Area venues, drive 150 miles or so round trip to go to the Stockon area, or drive up the Reno SCCA events (already did that once, its not that bad since I have somewhere to stay overnight inbetween and a great venue thats not overcrowded). Maybe other local autcrossing groups have had issues simular to this, but I dont know...
Maybe all that driving to some of you seems like im complaining about nothing but from going from 3 options locally to nothing at all is just infurating, especially having two months out of the auto-x season completely wasted due to all this. :mad:
Thoughts?
That left us with Cal Expo, the California state fairgrounds parking lot which has long been used as an Autocross arena in this area (along with the other two, so this is all relativly recent).
Anyhow, after the first two events in march, Cal Expo withdrew all contracts for the rest of the YEAR! :eek: Needless to say this was a shock, and its taken this long to even find out whats going on and for the local SCCA to find another venue... There were actually 3 organizations autocrossing here as of last year, SCCA, CSCC, and AAS (American Autocross Series), but AAS moved down south to Atwater south of Stockton (about 70-80 miles from here). And the new SCCA venue is in Stockton itself, 60 miles or so. Here is what it says on the Sacramento SCCA website about this:
[quote]For the record: Members of the Board met with representatives of CALEXPO to discuss the cancellation of events and determine if any corrective measures could be established to resume our program. The fact is CALEXPO earns $2,000 a weekend from us and when the facility is used for parking CALEXPO revenues are $30,000 per weekend with the same level of effort by their staff in planning and organization. It just wasn't worth it to do the autocross thing. CALEXPO had no other complaints.[/quote]
(web site -> [url]http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/Sacramento/[/url] )
So basically Cal Expo decided it wasnt worth it for use to use the facility, despite the fact that this is an overflow lot that we use and hardly EVER in use...
Im just peeved about all this... Its now either drive to the EXTREMELY crowded Bay Area venues, drive 150 miles or so round trip to go to the Stockon area, or drive up the Reno SCCA events (already did that once, its not that bad since I have somewhere to stay overnight inbetween and a great venue thats not overcrowded). Maybe other local autcrossing groups have had issues simular to this, but I dont know...
Maybe all that driving to some of you seems like im complaining about nothing but from going from 3 options locally to nothing at all is just infurating, especially having two months out of the auto-x season completely wasted due to all this. :mad:
Thoughts?
| ellisnc | 07-05-2003 06:54 AM |
Or you could just go to the track... ;)
| HoRo1 | 07-05-2003 10:17 AM |
What ellisnc said. Time to start hitting T'hill, and if you have to drive 150 miles round trip to a dump like Stockton, I'd be off to Sears Point and then Laguna Seca.
No offense to anyone from Stockton, but it is a dump.
No offense to anyone from Stockton, but it is a dump.
| ChrisW | 07-05-2003 11:38 AM |
Track days are really expensive compared to autox.
I mean, I can get a set of brake pads to last a season of autox, but only 1 day of track driving.
So CalExpo is your only choice? Sounds like someone is not looking hard enough.
Sounds like Reno is the place to go. BTW don't they have a divisional this weekend?
I mean, I can get a set of brake pads to last a season of autox, but only 1 day of track driving.
So CalExpo is your only choice? Sounds like someone is not looking hard enough.
Sounds like Reno is the place to go. BTW don't they have a divisional this weekend?
| HoRo1 | 07-05-2003 12:18 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]Track days are really expensive compared to autox.
I mean, I can get a set of brake pads to last a season of autox, but only 1 day of track driving... [/B][/QUOTE]
1 day?! You must be using the crappy stock pads - I hope. Either that or you haven't got the hang of track driving. Admittedly I'm using StopTechs, but I will get a [B]season[/B] (6 track weekends of time trialing and racing) out of a set of front Club Race pads.
[B]Track days are really expensive compared to autox.
I mean, I can get a set of brake pads to last a season of autox, but only 1 day of track driving... [/B][/QUOTE]
1 day?! You must be using the crappy stock pads - I hope. Either that or you haven't got the hang of track driving. Admittedly I'm using StopTechs, but I will get a [B]season[/B] (6 track weekends of time trialing and racing) out of a set of front Club Race pads.
| WReXer | 07-05-2003 10:15 PM |
Sounds like it's time to leave Cali and move to Reno!:cool:
| Kostamojen | 07-06-2003 04:00 AM |
Im gonna do my first track day at T-hill the 27th of august, mostly cause all my money that I would have spent for autocrossing wont get spent, so ill just put it towards a track day :p Need a helmet too of course...
Anyhow, with the way Sacramento is growing most of the parking lots around here are in use, and most of them are designed with barriers and stuff so that there really are not that many to choose from :( Twisty mountain passes are a very short ways away though, and quite a few of them too :D But of course you cant drive your car on roads like that like how you would on a track or autocross circuit and live to tell about it...
I hope that at least before next season another venue here in the greater sac area will be found, cause this whole thing just stinks :mad:
Anyhow, with the way Sacramento is growing most of the parking lots around here are in use, and most of them are designed with barriers and stuff so that there really are not that many to choose from :( Twisty mountain passes are a very short ways away though, and quite a few of them too :D But of course you cant drive your car on roads like that like how you would on a track or autocross circuit and live to tell about it...
I hope that at least before next season another venue here in the greater sac area will be found, cause this whole thing just stinks :mad:
| faceplate | 07-06-2003 05:47 PM |
wow this puts things in perspective
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Hey all, I am from Omaha, NE. For those of you who dont know its a spot of industrialization in the middle of nowhere. The population is about half a million. I always used to bitch about there not being enough to do. Now, that I am into motorsports I bitched about there not being any rallycrosses close by. I never took the time to appreciate the things we have. We have the mid america motorplex which is a cool road course, if I ever wanted to get into that. And our region's autocrosses are not crowded. I heard from a friend in st. louis how bad crowed autocrosses can be. I am glad I can get the seat time that I get. So in conclusion, I just want to say I feel for you man! This and other posts really help put things in perspective. Just becuase you live in a huge city doesnt mean the racing scene is going to be better.
| biggreen96 | 07-06-2003 08:22 PM |
I feel ya. Our air force base autoX got taken away too. And our fairgrounds charged alot for the lot. 40 dollars for that autoX. (non member):mad:
| ellisnc | 07-06-2003 09:56 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HoRo1 [/i]
[B]
1 day?! You must be using the crappy stock pads - I hope. Either that or you haven't got the hang of track driving. Admittedly I'm using StopTechs, but I will get a [B]season[/B] (6 track weekends of time trialing and racing) out of a set of front Club Race pads. [/B][/QUOTE]]
Use your brakes man!!
I went through some HP+ with stock calipers in 2 weekends at mid ohio which is pretty easy on brakes. Maybe some Blues would last longer... I'm not sure.
[B]
1 day?! You must be using the crappy stock pads - I hope. Either that or you haven't got the hang of track driving. Admittedly I'm using StopTechs, but I will get a [B]season[/B] (6 track weekends of time trialing and racing) out of a set of front Club Race pads. [/B][/QUOTE]]
Use your brakes man!!
I went through some HP+ with stock calipers in 2 weekends at mid ohio which is pretty easy on brakes. Maybe some Blues would last longer... I'm not sure.
| jmott | 07-07-2003 09:11 AM |
Re: What happens when your local Auto-x venues get greedy...
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move to texas
or find another parking lot.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
[B]Here in Sacramento we have been having venue problems with our autocrossing this year. It actually started two years ago when Mather AFB, the primary Autocross location was put back into operation after September 11th. Then last year, McClellen AFB, which is now a private sector area where the autocross location was actually a large parking lot, decided that we could no longer use their facilities. (never found out why exactly)
That left us with Cal Expo, the California state fairgrounds parking lot which has long been used as an Autocross arena in this area (along with the other two, so this is all relativly recent).
Anyhow, after the first two events in march, Cal Expo withdrew all contracts for the rest of the YEAR! :eek: Needless to say this was a shock, and its taken this long to even find out whats going on and for the local SCCA to find another venue... There were actually 3 organizations autocrossing here as of last year, SCCA, CSCC, and AAS (American Autocross Series), but AAS moved down south to Atwater south of Stockton (about 70-80 miles from here). And the new SCCA venue is in Stockton itself, 60 miles or so. Here is what it says on the Sacramento SCCA website about this:
(web site -> [url]http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/Sacramento/[/url] )
So basically Cal Expo decided it wasnt worth it for use to use the facility, despite the fact that this is an overflow lot that we use and hardly EVER in use...
Im just peeved about all this... Its now either drive to the EXTREMELY crowded Bay Area venues, drive 150 miles or so round trip to go to the Stockon area, or drive up the Reno SCCA events (already did that once, its not that bad since I have somewhere to stay overnight inbetween and a great venue thats not overcrowded). Maybe other local autcrossing groups have had issues simular to this, but I dont know...
Maybe all that driving to some of you seems like im complaining about nothing but from going from 3 options locally to nothing at all is just infurating, especially having two months out of the auto-x season completely wasted due to all this. :mad:
Thoughts? [/B][/QUOTE]
or find another parking lot.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
[B]Here in Sacramento we have been having venue problems with our autocrossing this year. It actually started two years ago when Mather AFB, the primary Autocross location was put back into operation after September 11th. Then last year, McClellen AFB, which is now a private sector area where the autocross location was actually a large parking lot, decided that we could no longer use their facilities. (never found out why exactly)
That left us with Cal Expo, the California state fairgrounds parking lot which has long been used as an Autocross arena in this area (along with the other two, so this is all relativly recent).
Anyhow, after the first two events in march, Cal Expo withdrew all contracts for the rest of the YEAR! :eek: Needless to say this was a shock, and its taken this long to even find out whats going on and for the local SCCA to find another venue... There were actually 3 organizations autocrossing here as of last year, SCCA, CSCC, and AAS (American Autocross Series), but AAS moved down south to Atwater south of Stockton (about 70-80 miles from here). And the new SCCA venue is in Stockton itself, 60 miles or so. Here is what it says on the Sacramento SCCA website about this:
(web site -> [url]http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/Sacramento/[/url] )
So basically Cal Expo decided it wasnt worth it for use to use the facility, despite the fact that this is an overflow lot that we use and hardly EVER in use...
Im just peeved about all this... Its now either drive to the EXTREMELY crowded Bay Area venues, drive 150 miles or so round trip to go to the Stockon area, or drive up the Reno SCCA events (already did that once, its not that bad since I have somewhere to stay overnight inbetween and a great venue thats not overcrowded). Maybe other local autcrossing groups have had issues simular to this, but I dont know...
Maybe all that driving to some of you seems like im complaining about nothing but from going from 3 options locally to nothing at all is just infurating, especially having two months out of the auto-x season completely wasted due to all this. :mad:
Thoughts? [/B][/QUOTE]
| Egan | 07-07-2003 03:16 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Kostamojen [/i]
[B]Im gonna do my first track day at T-hill the 27th of august, mostly cause all my money that I would have spent for autocrossing wont get spent, so ill just put it towards a track day :p Need a helmet too of course...
... [/B][/QUOTE]
Steve,
THill has helmets for rent - albeit at $25. I can't wait to see the L smoking the corners.
[B]Im gonna do my first track day at T-hill the 27th of august, mostly cause all my money that I would have spent for autocrossing wont get spent, so ill just put it towards a track day :p Need a helmet too of course...
... [/B][/QUOTE]
Steve,
THill has helmets for rent - albeit at $25. I can't wait to see the L smoking the corners.
| grumbly | 07-07-2003 05:34 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisW [/i]
[B]Track days are really expensive compared to autox.[/B][/QUOTE]
Funny you should bring this up. Over this last weekend I was twiddling some number around on this very subject. So far this year I have keep a spreadsheet of all my open track expenses and I am averaging about $420 (parts, entry fee, consumables) per lapping day. Considering a normal track day gives you about 4 hours of track time means im averaging $1.87 per minute of seat time. Doing the same thing with autox ($20 entry fee, 4 60 second runs) comes up with $5 a minute of seat time.
So now are track days really that expensive compared to autox? Autox has the lower start up cost but a much worse return on your investment. Further yet track days can be had for cheaper then what Im averaging.
For some good reading there was a [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368942]thread[/url] not too long ago where the price of racing was discussed.
[B]Track days are really expensive compared to autox.[/B][/QUOTE]
Funny you should bring this up. Over this last weekend I was twiddling some number around on this very subject. So far this year I have keep a spreadsheet of all my open track expenses and I am averaging about $420 (parts, entry fee, consumables) per lapping day. Considering a normal track day gives you about 4 hours of track time means im averaging $1.87 per minute of seat time. Doing the same thing with autox ($20 entry fee, 4 60 second runs) comes up with $5 a minute of seat time.
So now are track days really that expensive compared to autox? Autox has the lower start up cost but a much worse return on your investment. Further yet track days can be had for cheaper then what Im averaging.
For some good reading there was a [url=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=368942]thread[/url] not too long ago where the price of racing was discussed.
| Kostamojen | 07-07-2003 05:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Egan [/i]
[B]Steve,
THill has helmets for rent - albeit at $25. I can't wait to see the L smoking the corners. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ooh, thanks for telling me that, I just might do that instead :) (unless im up in reno anytime soon)
[B]Steve,
THill has helmets for rent - albeit at $25. I can't wait to see the L smoking the corners. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ooh, thanks for telling me that, I just might do that instead :) (unless im up in reno anytime soon)
| Ultralight | 07-07-2003 09:55 PM |
You are always welcome in Reno and you get a lot of runs. We even had fun runs (115 fun runs) at the divisional this last weekend. My wife and I got to drive the national champ Integra and I beat my best WRX time by 1.7 seconds. That's sort of good news/bad news. It told us it our driving that wasn't the main reason we were beat so bad but it did tell us the WRX sucks. There's an event at the Stead airport July 19 and 20 and one August 9 and 10. The August 30-31 event will likely be at a new site, the Derby airport south of Lovelock another 100 miles northeast of Reno. Then September 20-21 in Hawthorne and back to Stead for October 11 and 12. A new road course has it's first 1.25 miles paved 35 miles east of Reno. We were invited to run on it for free as inauguration a few weeks back. We ran the Miata and the WRX on it. When I was young I would have killed to road race but now that I can afford to road race I prefer auto-x.
| KC | 07-07-2003 10:29 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grumbly [/i]
[B]
Funny you should bring this up. Over this last weekend I was twiddling some number around on this very subject. So far this year I have keep a spreadsheet of all my open track expenses and I am averaging about $420 (parts, entry fee, consumables) per lapping day. Considering a normal track day gives you about 4 hours of track time means im averaging $1.87 per minute of seat time. Doing the same thing with autox ($20 entry fee, 4 60 second runs) comes up with $5 a minute of seat time.
So now are track days really that expensive compared to autox? Autox has the lower start up cost but a much worse return on your investment. Further yet track days can be had for cheaper then what Im averaging.[/B][/QUOTE]
$420 for A DAY at the track
$20 for A DAY of auto-x.
Seat time isn't the end all be all of figuring things out. ;) When it comes down to it, you spent $420 for a day of entertainment. I spent $20 for a day of entertainment. I now have $400 to spend on other things. ;)
This is where people say it's more expensive to track their car... because it is.
[B]
Funny you should bring this up. Over this last weekend I was twiddling some number around on this very subject. So far this year I have keep a spreadsheet of all my open track expenses and I am averaging about $420 (parts, entry fee, consumables) per lapping day. Considering a normal track day gives you about 4 hours of track time means im averaging $1.87 per minute of seat time. Doing the same thing with autox ($20 entry fee, 4 60 second runs) comes up with $5 a minute of seat time.
So now are track days really that expensive compared to autox? Autox has the lower start up cost but a much worse return on your investment. Further yet track days can be had for cheaper then what Im averaging.[/B][/QUOTE]
$420 for A DAY at the track
$20 for A DAY of auto-x.
Seat time isn't the end all be all of figuring things out. ;) When it comes down to it, you spent $420 for a day of entertainment. I spent $20 for a day of entertainment. I now have $400 to spend on other things. ;)
This is where people say it's more expensive to track their car... because it is.
| Akiata | 07-08-2003 01:11 AM |
KC, it depends on what you call entertainment. Shagging cones for 2 hours then driving for 3 min or what we call auto x is fun. I like to compair times with my friends and chat with them, but at the end of the day I don't feel like I accomplished much. After a day at the track I personally have had so much more fun. Yes I can't afford to do it every weekend like autoxing but it is a better investment.
p@
p@
| afpdl | 07-08-2003 01:49 AM |
The biggest difference is you cant do a track day every weekend and in autox it is easy to get into a high level of competition.
| TimStevens | 07-08-2003 08:06 AM |
Jumping in on this a little late, but we're suffering from the same problem here around Albany (MoHud region). We generally autocrossed at the Rome AFB, and after 9/11 all competition there was summarily cancelled indefinitely. We also had a big parking lot at the NY State offices we used quite frequently, and we lost that too. So, there have been ZERO autocrosses anywhere near Albany this summer, and it's looking like there will continue to be none.
I've been driving about 120 miles down to Binghamton to compete (somewhat convenient since my girlfriend... erm... fiancee goes to grad school there), which is a PITA. But, I almost managed an FTD there on my first trip down, so maybe it's worth the drive :)
-tim
I've been driving about 120 miles down to Binghamton to compete (somewhat convenient since my girlfriend... erm... fiancee goes to grad school there), which is a PITA. But, I almost managed an FTD there on my first trip down, so maybe it's worth the drive :)
-tim
| KC | 07-08-2003 08:31 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Akiata [/i]
[B]KC, it depends on what you call entertainment. Shagging cones for 2 hours then driving for 3 min or what we call auto x is fun. I like to compair times with my friends and chat with them, but at the end of the day I don't feel like I accomplished much. After a day at the track I personally have had so much more fun. Yes I can't afford to do it every weekend like autoxing but it is a better investment.
p@ [/B][/QUOTE]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS.
My suggestion is stop referring to seat time as a way to justify the spending of the money. No matter what, an auto-xer doesn't have to pay the extra $400 for a day of *whatever you wanna call it*. :D And both events require a day of commitment. (And for many that do not have tracks that offer track days.. a long drive or even over night stays near the track).
Those of us in New England have NHIS and LimeRock within a couple hours drive. But many also head down to VIR and out to Watkins Glen (overnight stays required) to feed their addiction. ;) The more expereince the better, but also more costly.
So you like track days. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Auto-x isn't for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
What I do take exception to is people saying 'it's the same cost to participate with minimum outlay' which is FAR from the truth. ;)
Justifying it by 'seat time' is looking blindly at the overall picture. It's a day of something, whatever, that requires you to be there the whole day and at the end of that day, it's more expensive to track the car because track time (road course/autox) isn't a 'pay-per-minute' ordeal.
--kC
[B]KC, it depends on what you call entertainment. Shagging cones for 2 hours then driving for 3 min or what we call auto x is fun. I like to compair times with my friends and chat with them, but at the end of the day I don't feel like I accomplished much. After a day at the track I personally have had so much more fun. Yes I can't afford to do it every weekend like autoxing but it is a better investment.
p@ [/B][/QUOTE]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS.
My suggestion is stop referring to seat time as a way to justify the spending of the money. No matter what, an auto-xer doesn't have to pay the extra $400 for a day of *whatever you wanna call it*. :D And both events require a day of commitment. (And for many that do not have tracks that offer track days.. a long drive or even over night stays near the track).
Those of us in New England have NHIS and LimeRock within a couple hours drive. But many also head down to VIR and out to Watkins Glen (overnight stays required) to feed their addiction. ;) The more expereince the better, but also more costly.
So you like track days. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Auto-x isn't for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
What I do take exception to is people saying 'it's the same cost to participate with minimum outlay' which is FAR from the truth. ;)
Justifying it by 'seat time' is looking blindly at the overall picture. It's a day of something, whatever, that requires you to be there the whole day and at the end of that day, it's more expensive to track the car because track time (road course/autox) isn't a 'pay-per-minute' ordeal.
--kC
| TimStevens | 07-08-2003 08:42 AM |
And don't forget the whole risk/reward aspect of going to a track vs. autocrossing, but I think we beat that to death in another recent thread!
| HoRo1 | 07-08-2003 12:12 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS...
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a little like me watching racing on my 9" black and white TV with rabbit ears rather than on my 42" hi-def flat screen through digital cable. I mean, I'm still watching racing - and I'm doing it for less money. It's good to be frugal. :D
[B]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS...
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
It's a little like me watching racing on my 9" black and white TV with rabbit ears rather than on my 42" hi-def flat screen through digital cable. I mean, I'm still watching racing - and I'm doing it for less money. It's good to be frugal. :D
| grumbly | 07-08-2003 03:25 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS.
My suggestion is stop referring to seat time as a way to justify the spending of the money. No matter what, an auto-xer doesn't have to pay the extra $400 for a day of *whatever you wanna call it*. :D And both events require a day of commitment. (And for many that do not have tracks that offer track days.. a long drive or even over night stays near the track).
...
So you like track days. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Auto-x isn't for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
...
Justifying it by 'seat time' is looking blindly at the overall picture. It's a day of something, whatever, that requires you to be there the whole day and at the end of that day, it's more expensive to track the car because track time (road course/autox) isn't a 'pay-per-minute' ordeal.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Woo.. someone got there panties in a bunch. Maybe you should stop referring to autox as racing so you can justify standing around in a parking lot for a day ;)
While I like the friendly hang out nature and competition that autox offers it does not get me all charged up. To me the [i]value[/i] in a day of autox occurs only during the timed run.[/opinion]
No one said track days were cheaper that autox. Doing so would be ludicrous. The only point I made was that I get more [i]value[/i] from a lapping day then autox and did the math to show it.
[quote]
[psudo-quote]
So you like autox. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Track Days are not for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
[/psudo-quote]
[/quote]
It goes both ways. ;) I never said I didn�t like autox. Just for a whole day investment I would rather spend it at the track then an auto-x.
-chris
[B]I know this thread has been hijacked... ;)
Allow me to rephrase it...
At the end of the day after an event, both auto-x and track day, the auto-xer has spent LESS.
My suggestion is stop referring to seat time as a way to justify the spending of the money. No matter what, an auto-xer doesn't have to pay the extra $400 for a day of *whatever you wanna call it*. :D And both events require a day of commitment. (And for many that do not have tracks that offer track days.. a long drive or even over night stays near the track).
...
So you like track days. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Auto-x isn't for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
...
Justifying it by 'seat time' is looking blindly at the overall picture. It's a day of something, whatever, that requires you to be there the whole day and at the end of that day, it's more expensive to track the car because track time (road course/autox) isn't a 'pay-per-minute' ordeal.
--kC [/B][/QUOTE]
Woo.. someone got there panties in a bunch. Maybe you should stop referring to autox as racing so you can justify standing around in a parking lot for a day ;)
While I like the friendly hang out nature and competition that autox offers it does not get me all charged up. To me the [i]value[/i] in a day of autox occurs only during the timed run.[/opinion]
No one said track days were cheaper that autox. Doing so would be ludicrous. The only point I made was that I get more [i]value[/i] from a lapping day then autox and did the math to show it.
[quote]
[psudo-quote]
So you like autox. Great. Everyone should be encouraged to do what they like, to try different things. Track Days are not for everyone either. Some like it, some don't (you're one of the don'ts). I have no problem with that.
[/psudo-quote]
[/quote]
It goes both ways. ;) I never said I didn�t like autox. Just for a whole day investment I would rather spend it at the track then an auto-x.
-chris
| KC | 07-08-2003 03:44 PM |
Chris, that last comment wasn't directed at you. It was in reference to the post (Akiata) above it. ;)
My panties aren't in a bunch... really.
I just get tired of time after time Track guys saying 'For the seat time you get, it's cheaper.' In the overall picture, and you agree, it's not cheaper to track your car.
(Then why do a comparison to auto-x and set time/$$) ;)
--KC
My panties aren't in a bunch... really.
I just get tired of time after time Track guys saying 'For the seat time you get, it's cheaper.' In the overall picture, and you agree, it's not cheaper to track your car.
(Then why do a comparison to auto-x and set time/$$) ;)
--KC
| grumbly | 07-08-2003 05:26 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by KC [/i]
[B]I just get tired of time after time Track guys saying 'For the seat time you get, it's cheaper.' In the overall picture, and you agree, it's not cheaper to track your car.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think this highlights the problem. What it all comes down to is what a given person expects to get out of the day. In other words the �value� of the day has different meaning depending on your perspective.
From the open track perspective value is judged by how much on track time is offered at a given event. Ie: $150 for 4 hours is a good deal. When these metrics are applied to auto-x, as I did, you wind up with absurd numbers: 4 hours of equivalent autox seat time would cost $1,200. What this means [i]from the track perspective[/i] is that auto-x is not a cost effective way to get out of it what a track day gives you.
Now looking at this same situation from the auto-x perspective it comes down in simple dollars: $20 vs $150 entry fees. To you and many other auto-xers the value is not time spent on course but the other intangibles associated with the event. $20 gets you a day-o-fun and a chance to work on your tan.
Both views are valid. The only thing that differs is what the purpose of the day is supposed to be. Don�t go to an auto-x and expect a lot of on track time. Don�t go to a track day and expect to sit around talking to buddies all day.
For me Im trying to maximize my seat time and thus track days are the most cost effective way for me to do it.
-chris
[B]I just get tired of time after time Track guys saying 'For the seat time you get, it's cheaper.' In the overall picture, and you agree, it's not cheaper to track your car.[/B][/QUOTE]
I think this highlights the problem. What it all comes down to is what a given person expects to get out of the day. In other words the �value� of the day has different meaning depending on your perspective.
From the open track perspective value is judged by how much on track time is offered at a given event. Ie: $150 for 4 hours is a good deal. When these metrics are applied to auto-x, as I did, you wind up with absurd numbers: 4 hours of equivalent autox seat time would cost $1,200. What this means [i]from the track perspective[/i] is that auto-x is not a cost effective way to get out of it what a track day gives you.
Now looking at this same situation from the auto-x perspective it comes down in simple dollars: $20 vs $150 entry fees. To you and many other auto-xers the value is not time spent on course but the other intangibles associated with the event. $20 gets you a day-o-fun and a chance to work on your tan.
Both views are valid. The only thing that differs is what the purpose of the day is supposed to be. Don�t go to an auto-x and expect a lot of on track time. Don�t go to a track day and expect to sit around talking to buddies all day.
For me Im trying to maximize my seat time and thus track days are the most cost effective way for me to do it.
-chris
| PaulC | 07-08-2003 06:02 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by grumbly [/i]
[B]
To you and many other auto-xers the value is not time spent on course but the other intangibles associated with the event. [/B][/QUOTE]
Can I beat the dead horse too? :D
A BIG difference between track days and autox for me is that there is no formal competition at track days. I've tracked my car a few times, and I've actually gone home early before because I got bored just hot lapping. Even if it is just a few minutes screeching around a parking lot, the competition makes it worth it for me. When I can afford to road race like Horo is when I'll be out on track again.
[B]
To you and many other auto-xers the value is not time spent on course but the other intangibles associated with the event. [/B][/QUOTE]
Can I beat the dead horse too? :D
A BIG difference between track days and autox for me is that there is no formal competition at track days. I've tracked my car a few times, and I've actually gone home early before because I got bored just hot lapping. Even if it is just a few minutes screeching around a parking lot, the competition makes it worth it for me. When I can afford to road race like Horo is when I'll be out on track again.
| Kostamojen | 07-08-2003 06:54 PM |
This applys to track days as well, but at an Autox its a bit easier to just hop in someones car and go for a ride :) You can have a considerable amount of track time if you include ride alongs :p
Ive found it harder to watch track events too. I mean, you only see a part of a track at a time. While at an autox, you get to sit there and watch everything go down, then aplaud when someone gets best time of the day :)
Ive found it harder to watch track events too. I mean, you only see a part of a track at a time. While at an autox, you get to sit there and watch everything go down, then aplaud when someone gets best time of the day :)
| Akiata | 07-08-2003 09:40 PM |
This thread is done.
KC, I never said I don't like autox... i'm actually fairly good at it ( I got 8th overall in the morning group) but I don't post in many autox threads and I am never going to Nationals. Because to me spending a total of 5-6 days for 6 runs is not a (here is the magic word) value to me.
Both are fun though. If I could afford it I would track my car every weekend and autox occasionaly. But as it is now its the opposite.
Anyway, here in the NW we are having problems as well about loosing sites. We have talked about an extra charge of $5 for every entry going to a "site fund" so we could buy our own piece of tarmac but I doubt that will ever happen. Also Pacific Raceways (the artist formerly known as Seattle International Raceway) has expressed interest in a skidpad/autox/overflow parking lot. I don't know what ever came about from that though.
p@
KC, I never said I don't like autox... i'm actually fairly good at it ( I got 8th overall in the morning group) but I don't post in many autox threads and I am never going to Nationals. Because to me spending a total of 5-6 days for 6 runs is not a (here is the magic word) value to me.
Both are fun though. If I could afford it I would track my car every weekend and autox occasionaly. But as it is now its the opposite.
Anyway, here in the NW we are having problems as well about loosing sites. We have talked about an extra charge of $5 for every entry going to a "site fund" so we could buy our own piece of tarmac but I doubt that will ever happen. Also Pacific Raceways (the artist formerly known as Seattle International Raceway) has expressed interest in a skidpad/autox/overflow parking lot. I don't know what ever came about from that though.
p@
| Thug | 07-08-2003 09:44 PM |
But if the overall goal is to become a better driver seat time most definitely is the most important factor.
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