| wrx2.0 555 | 01-21-2005 11:48 AM |
Advantages/Disadvantages to header on STX trimed car?
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I am considering adding a header with EcuTek tune to a TBE equipped '02 WRX.
A very good buddy of mine is agrueing the usefullness of the header at all in STX trim. (I.E. no boost changes)
I highly value his opinion but wanted to ask you guys who have actually done this.
Preferably those that did the header last, so you could actually see a header only difference in the car.
A GT Spec header runs about $450, so would that amount of money be worth any gains at the STX level?
Thanks a lot,
Scott
A very good buddy of mine is agrueing the usefullness of the header at all in STX trim. (I.E. no boost changes)
I highly value his opinion but wanted to ask you guys who have actually done this.
Preferably those that did the header last, so you could actually see a header only difference in the car.
A GT Spec header runs about $450, so would that amount of money be worth any gains at the STX level?
Thanks a lot,
Scott
| trhoppe | 01-21-2005 12:03 PM |
There is a reason that we all run (ran) the SR headers ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| KC | 01-21-2005 12:04 PM |
Certain headers will give a little more power down low, some will give it up high. Hardly ever will you find one that 'does it all'.
The general concensus for auto-x is that you need more power down low... more than up high ... because it's the slow stuff that you lose more time in.
So... with that said, some headers can add more power to the car where you need it most for an auto-x... down low. :) That seems like a good price for headers... but don't really know the characteristics of it. I had an equal length Stone Racing header. Changed the sound of the car to sound honda-ish... but just more pissed off. :D
--kC
The general concensus for auto-x is that you need more power down low... more than up high ... because it's the slow stuff that you lose more time in.
So... with that said, some headers can add more power to the car where you need it most for an auto-x... down low. :) That seems like a good price for headers... but don't really know the characteristics of it. I had an equal length Stone Racing header. Changed the sound of the car to sound honda-ish... but just more pissed off. :D
--kC
| thechickencow | 01-21-2005 12:28 PM |
I added my borla header last on my car, and I don't ever want to get rid of it. I feel like its made a good difference in power and I don't think its hurt horribly down low. Since I've added it I haven't noticed a loss down low as far as building boost goes.
Jay
Jay
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-21-2005 01:09 PM |
Thanks for the info fella's.
Tom and KC...did you guys run something other than the SR before switching to it?
Thanks...
Tom and KC...did you guys run something other than the SR before switching to it?
Thanks...
| KC | 01-21-2005 01:13 PM |
Yep. Stock header. :)
| wrxwag | 01-21-2005 01:26 PM |
KC i understand you run STX. is their no rule about headers in STX?
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-21-2005 01:40 PM |
OK...lets say I wanted to buy one.
My googling skills are offering absolutely nothing.
I only found this one on ssautochrome website.
Prod.#
SSBWRX 1996 - 2002 Subaru WRX Race Headers w/ (2) EGR Price
$700.00 (yes, its a stone racing header)
[img]http://www.ssautochrome.com/products/1304.jpg[/img]
Cant say I'm up to paying $700 for a header....:)
My googling skills are offering absolutely nothing.
I only found this one on ssautochrome website.
Prod.#
SSBWRX 1996 - 2002 Subaru WRX Race Headers w/ (2) EGR Price
$700.00 (yes, its a stone racing header)
[img]http://www.ssautochrome.com/products/1304.jpg[/img]
Cant say I'm up to paying $700 for a header....:)
| KC | 01-21-2005 02:02 PM |
That's the one. :)
wrxwag - I no longer run STX. I sold my wagon.
Yes, there are rules in ST regarding headers. You can swap them out. :)
The only issue some cars in STS run into with this rule are there are some STS cars with a cat on the header (Protege). In STS, they cannot replace any cats. In STX/STU.. you can go down to one cat.
Since Subarus don't have cats on the header... it's a legal mod for any Subaru for STS/STX/STU.
--kC
wrxwag - I no longer run STX. I sold my wagon.
Yes, there are rules in ST regarding headers. You can swap them out. :)
The only issue some cars in STS run into with this rule are there are some STS cars with a cat on the header (Protege). In STS, they cannot replace any cats. In STX/STU.. you can go down to one cat.
Since Subarus don't have cats on the header... it's a legal mod for any Subaru for STS/STX/STU.
--kC
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-21-2005 02:04 PM |
Thanks for the confirmation KC....
I've seen a few dyno plots for the GT Spec one, but they were on Stage 2 setups.
I might just have to try it out anyway.
I can always sell it, if I dont like it....
Scott
I've seen a few dyno plots for the GT Spec one, but they were on Stage 2 setups.
I might just have to try it out anyway.
I can always sell it, if I dont like it....
Scott
| DrBiggly | 01-21-2005 03:34 PM |
Scott,
I've done with and without the header. I also have the SR header mentioned above and it does make the car sound like a pissed-off Honda, but the power gains are worth the silly sound if you ask me. I won't get rid of it for sure.
If you can't go for the SR header, the GT Spec should probably be pretty decent. Between the headers I don't think you're talking more than a 2-3hp difference (and that's really just moving the graph around a bit here and there.) Without it, as much as 15hp loss. That much is pretty notable if you ask me. :)
I've done with and without the header. I also have the SR header mentioned above and it does make the car sound like a pissed-off Honda, but the power gains are worth the silly sound if you ask me. I won't get rid of it for sure.
If you can't go for the SR header, the GT Spec should probably be pretty decent. Between the headers I don't think you're talking more than a 2-3hp difference (and that's really just moving the graph around a bit here and there.) Without it, as much as 15hp loss. That much is pretty notable if you ask me. :)
| MNbiker | 01-21-2005 07:42 PM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]Scott,
I've done with and without the header. I also have the SR header mentioned above and it does make the car sound like a pissed-off Honda, but the power gains are worth the silly sound if you ask me. I won't get rid of it for sure.
If you can't go for the SR header, the GT Spec should probably be pretty decent. Between the headers I don't think you're talking more than a 2-3hp difference (and that's really just moving the graph around a bit here and there.) Without it, as much as 15hp loss. That much is pretty notable if you ask me. :)[/QUOTE]
As another former SR header user, I'd concur with what the Doc said. My car spent as much time on the dyno as any STX car last year, and the header was worth 10-12hp and 12-15 ft lbs on my car. Based on what I've seen, the GT Spec should provide similar gains.
I'm not 100% sure it will be as effective as the SR header in one particular area - smoothing out the torque curve. Every WRX dyno I've ever seen with the stock exhaust manifolds, turbo and boost has a significant dip in torque before peaking at approx. 4K. This is a really bad place to have a flat spot for autox. With the header installed, my torque increased smoothly all the way to the torque peak. From the driver's seat, this translates into noticeably smoother power delivery.
Disadvantages? I can only think of two (other than cost):
1. Torque peaks about 300-400 rpm later than with the stock manifolds.
2. The headers stick down quite a ways, so you'll need some heat shielding on the splash guard, to keep it from melting into a pile of goo. (Actually, mine still got pretty hot - even with two layers of DEI matting)
-Steve
I've done with and without the header. I also have the SR header mentioned above and it does make the car sound like a pissed-off Honda, but the power gains are worth the silly sound if you ask me. I won't get rid of it for sure.
If you can't go for the SR header, the GT Spec should probably be pretty decent. Between the headers I don't think you're talking more than a 2-3hp difference (and that's really just moving the graph around a bit here and there.) Without it, as much as 15hp loss. That much is pretty notable if you ask me. :)[/QUOTE]
As another former SR header user, I'd concur with what the Doc said. My car spent as much time on the dyno as any STX car last year, and the header was worth 10-12hp and 12-15 ft lbs on my car. Based on what I've seen, the GT Spec should provide similar gains.
I'm not 100% sure it will be as effective as the SR header in one particular area - smoothing out the torque curve. Every WRX dyno I've ever seen with the stock exhaust manifolds, turbo and boost has a significant dip in torque before peaking at approx. 4K. This is a really bad place to have a flat spot for autox. With the header installed, my torque increased smoothly all the way to the torque peak. From the driver's seat, this translates into noticeably smoother power delivery.
Disadvantages? I can only think of two (other than cost):
1. Torque peaks about 300-400 rpm later than with the stock manifolds.
2. The headers stick down quite a ways, so you'll need some heat shielding on the splash guard, to keep it from melting into a pile of goo. (Actually, mine still got pretty hot - even with two layers of DEI matting)
-Steve
| Rallycarperson | 01-21-2005 08:23 PM |
Any reason why people are using the SR's instead of any other equal length? Just curious...
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
-Mark
MAPmotors.com
| KC | 01-21-2005 09:03 PM |
Because they were some of the 1st headers available back in 2003 that showed any gains for auto-xers and not really drag-racers. :)
| Got Pink? | 01-21-2005 11:58 PM |
So what about STi's? what header is the best and is it just or even more neccessary for STU/ESP? I guess the jet hot 2000 coating is also essential in addition to heat wrap too.
Nate
Nate
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-22-2005 06:35 AM |
[QUOTE=Got Pink?]I guess the jet hot 2000 coating is also essential in addition to heat wrap too.
Nate[/QUOTE]
I would like to know this also. The GT Spec does not come coated at all, so I'd have to wrap it myself if necessary.
Nate[/QUOTE]
I would like to know this also. The GT Spec does not come coated at all, so I'd have to wrap it myself if necessary.
| Draken | 01-22-2005 08:45 AM |
I'm running the Stone Mountain header on my '04 STi too. I ran ESP at nationals in 2004, prolly going to do a few more mods that will put me into SM, assuming i run much autocross this year. I don't have dyno info on the improvements, but did notice a healthy increase in torque. Full spool was only affected by a couple hundred rpm.
Chris H.
Chris H.
| omahasubaru | 01-22-2005 10:34 AM |
Only advantage I see is weight reduction.
Even coated after market headers don't retain heat as good as the stock header so spool up is usually reduced. Plus they'll likely radiate more heat even coated than the stock one. Not worth it IMHO. Spend the money on something else.
[quote=MNbiker]As another former SR header user, I'd concur with what the Doc said. My car spent as much time on the dyno as any STX car last year, and the header was worth 10-12hp and 12-15 ft lbs on my car. Based on what I've seen, the GT Spec should provide similar gains.[/quote]
Care to post your plots to show us where these gains were at?
I see the gains in a exhaust manifold replacement for the straight line guys... but I just haven't seen enough of anything for the autocross crowd to make any of them worth the cost. $700 is a lot for only 12-15 ftlbs that are higher up the power band than with the stock headers. You're not including the cost of coating and/or wrapping them. So $1k for such small gains is the last 1/10th to me. Supposed you'd need it to win as money can't be an object, but for me, I just don't think they are worth it at all. I'm going to get better suspension on my car and lighter wheels than my 15.7 lb ones, figure that will make a bigger difference.
Even coated after market headers don't retain heat as good as the stock header so spool up is usually reduced. Plus they'll likely radiate more heat even coated than the stock one. Not worth it IMHO. Spend the money on something else.
[quote=MNbiker]As another former SR header user, I'd concur with what the Doc said. My car spent as much time on the dyno as any STX car last year, and the header was worth 10-12hp and 12-15 ft lbs on my car. Based on what I've seen, the GT Spec should provide similar gains.[/quote]
Care to post your plots to show us where these gains were at?
I see the gains in a exhaust manifold replacement for the straight line guys... but I just haven't seen enough of anything for the autocross crowd to make any of them worth the cost. $700 is a lot for only 12-15 ftlbs that are higher up the power band than with the stock headers. You're not including the cost of coating and/or wrapping them. So $1k for such small gains is the last 1/10th to me. Supposed you'd need it to win as money can't be an object, but for me, I just don't think they are worth it at all. I'm going to get better suspension on my car and lighter wheels than my 15.7 lb ones, figure that will make a bigger difference.
| Jsortor | 01-22-2005 10:51 PM |
I spoke at length with my tuner, DynoComp and came to the conclusion that a header would not create any useful gains in autoX. The key to increases is heat transfer. That is where the power really comes from. Like Omaha said, aftermarket (non ferrous) headers dissapate heat very quickly. With a 60sec run, then 10-20 minutes in grid, by the time the headers build up heat to the point of creating more power, your next run is over. Dyno plots will definitely show you the real gains possible with a header, because the header is at temp. Its just tough in AutoX to get it to, and maintain, those temps. Just my 2 cents. I run with the stock manifolds.
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-23-2005 03:53 PM |
Interesting....thanks for the replies and info....
| DrBiggly | 01-23-2005 11:41 PM |
wrx2.0 555,
It would be great if you have the willingness to do a test n tune with and without headers. But that would, admittedly, be a decent amount of work. Or give it a shot and give your impressions. :)
It would be great if you have the willingness to do a test n tune with and without headers. But that would, admittedly, be a decent amount of work. Or give it a shot and give your impressions. :)
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-24-2005 06:28 AM |
[QUOTE=DrBiggly]wrx2.0 555,
It would be great if you have the willingness to do a test n tune with and without headers. But that would, admittedly, be a decent amount of work. Or give it a shot and give your impressions. :)[/QUOTE]
Let me find some sponsors first, then I'll try it.. ;) :lol:
It would be great if you have the willingness to do a test n tune with and without headers. But that would, admittedly, be a decent amount of work. Or give it a shot and give your impressions. :)[/QUOTE]
Let me find some sponsors first, then I'll try it.. ;) :lol:
| trhoppe | 01-24-2005 11:19 AM |
Mine were just wrapped, but the STi has coated and wrapped headers also $1K for the last tenth is relatively cheap ;)
-Tom
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 01-24-2005 11:37 AM |
Tom,
Where did you get those coated?
Where did you get those coated?
| trhoppe | 01-24-2005 11:38 AM |
I dunno I bought them coated from MNBiker
-Tom
-Tom
| omahasubaru | 01-24-2005 01:17 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]Mine were just wrapped, but the STi has coated and wrapped headers also $1K for the last tenth is relatively cheap ;)
-Tom[/QUOTE]
This coming from the same guy who said.... Why would anyone spend the money on SSR Competitions when comparied to Rota Attacks. Saying it isn't worth the price difference for weight savings. :lol:
Anyway. I'd like to see some real world proof. I just don't see there being advantages... especially with the added heat soak in the engine bay not matter if you coat and wrap them compared to stock.
Porting & coating the stock manifold makes sense to me, but again is that 1/10th that can be made up may other places.
-Tom[/QUOTE]
This coming from the same guy who said.... Why would anyone spend the money on SSR Competitions when comparied to Rota Attacks. Saying it isn't worth the price difference for weight savings. :lol:
Anyway. I'd like to see some real world proof. I just don't see there being advantages... especially with the added heat soak in the engine bay not matter if you coat and wrap them compared to stock.
Porting & coating the stock manifold makes sense to me, but again is that 1/10th that can be made up may other places.
| trhoppe | 01-24-2005 01:23 PM |
:lol: :lol:
My mind has been teh changed ;)
-Tom
My mind has been teh changed ;)
-Tom
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-24-2005 01:42 PM |
What happened to [URL=http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=343777]THIS[/URL] price?? :huh:
| wrx2.0 555 | 01-24-2005 01:54 PM |
[QUOTE=omahasubaru]This coming from the same guy who said.... Why would anyone spend the money on SSR Competitions when comparied to Rota Attacks. Saying it isn't worth the price difference for weight savings. :lol:
[/QUOTE]
OOO...and this...
[QUOTE=trhoppe06-20-2003, 04:32 PM]I dunno what you guys are talking about. This header made me lose HP
Don't buy it
it sucks......
It actually did make my turbo spool slower, and it lost about 5 ft lbs @ 3000rpms, but ..........
-Tom[/QUOTE]
[I]yes, the "but..." was edited to make statement to appear to be without sarcasm[/I] :devil:
[/QUOTE]
OOO...and this...
[QUOTE=trhoppe06-20-2003, 04:32 PM]I dunno what you guys are talking about. This header made me lose HP
Don't buy it
it sucks......
It actually did make my turbo spool slower, and it lost about 5 ft lbs @ 3000rpms, but ..........
-Tom[/QUOTE]
[I]yes, the "but..." was edited to make statement to appear to be without sarcasm[/I] :devil:
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