| HoRo1 | 08-24-2002 05:02 PM |
CART vs F1
While you're still laughing, and while I'm still trying to monopolise the Motorsports forum...
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve practice times (2.7 miles)
F1 - JP Montoya - 1:12.836
CART - C. da Matta - 1:18.989
I think that says it all. :eek:
Circuit Gilles Villeneuve practice times (2.7 miles)
F1 - JP Montoya - 1:12.836
CART - C. da Matta - 1:18.989
I think that says it all. :eek:
| 2.0 guy | 08-24-2002 06:08 PM |
Yep, but not too shabby considering that the CART car weighs 400+ lbs more, and is making less power than the "glory days".
I think it was Scott Pruett who said something about a tire war contributing to the fast times in F1 as well, while CART has a sole tire supplier...
Incidentally, I do like to watch both series, but with F1 the superior car is the Ferrari. Williams is second best.. its getting a bit old to see the Ferrari so dominant. Nobody seems to be closing the gap.
In CART, is the Newman-Haas Lola Toyota really any better than the Target Chip Ganassi Lola Toyota? I doubt. Even though DaMatta runs at the top, its nice to see that atleast someone else has a shot as being the quickest.
the comparison between F1 and CART are only natural, but they are different sorts of racing. F1 has some great drivers with various types of machinery, while CART is much more of a spec series. When someone dominates in CART, its not usually because of the car :D
I sure do miss those good old days in F1 with the turbo V6 from Honda... Senna and Prost going at it well ahead of the rest of the field. Sure those guys were great, but I'm sure some great drivers were in the field back in slower machines too :)
I think it was Scott Pruett who said something about a tire war contributing to the fast times in F1 as well, while CART has a sole tire supplier...
Incidentally, I do like to watch both series, but with F1 the superior car is the Ferrari. Williams is second best.. its getting a bit old to see the Ferrari so dominant. Nobody seems to be closing the gap.
In CART, is the Newman-Haas Lola Toyota really any better than the Target Chip Ganassi Lola Toyota? I doubt. Even though DaMatta runs at the top, its nice to see that atleast someone else has a shot as being the quickest.
the comparison between F1 and CART are only natural, but they are different sorts of racing. F1 has some great drivers with various types of machinery, while CART is much more of a spec series. When someone dominates in CART, its not usually because of the car :D
I sure do miss those good old days in F1 with the turbo V6 from Honda... Senna and Prost going at it well ahead of the rest of the field. Sure those guys were great, but I'm sure some great drivers were in the field back in slower machines too :)
| pio!pio! | 08-24-2002 07:41 PM |
I was watching RPM2NITE and one of the drivers was saying how it's not fair to compare the current F1 cars because their tires are way better. He was comparing their times to F1 abour 3 or 4 years ago before the tire war really got into it.
| rkkwan | 08-24-2002 08:50 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by pio!pio! [/i]
[B]I was watching RPM2NITE and one of the drivers was saying how it's not fair to compare the current F1 cars because their tires are way better. He was comparing their times to F1 abour 3 or 4 years ago before the tire war really got into it. [/B][/QUOTE]
But F1 uses grooved tires and runs rain or shine. CART uses slicks. I can't believe the CART tires are that inferior. :o
-Ray
[B]I was watching RPM2NITE and one of the drivers was saying how it's not fair to compare the current F1 cars because their tires are way better. He was comparing their times to F1 abour 3 or 4 years ago before the tire war really got into it. [/B][/QUOTE]
But F1 uses grooved tires and runs rain or shine. CART uses slicks. I can't believe the CART tires are that inferior. :o
-Ray
| HoRo1 | 08-24-2002 09:16 PM |
I think that F1 tyres are also narrower.
| Osgood30 | 08-24-2002 09:25 PM |
I think that F1 breaks are way better then Cart's. At one of the F1 races last year they said that it takes 6 months to make a break pad for F1 car, and it takes 1 race to destroy it.
| ChrisWRX | 08-24-2002 11:10 PM |
Not trying to be an a$$, just so you know next time, it's brakes, not breaks.
Anyways, top F1 teams have much bigger budgets than CART teams. F1 technology is also far superior (mainly because of the extra cash I assume).
Anyways, top F1 teams have much bigger budgets than CART teams. F1 technology is also far superior (mainly because of the extra cash I assume).
| 2.0 guy | 08-24-2002 11:47 PM |
Correctimundo :)
Incidentally, the high dollar nature of F1 is also an allure for a lot of the drivers. I mean Villeneuve would rather stay in a car that is not suitable for his talents than to come back to CART for 1 year and probably kick some butt...
I mean its hard to take seriously the notion that the "top drivers in the world" are in F1 when there is only 1 of 4 possible victors this season. Those would be the drivers of the Ferrari and the Williams. McLaren has had some almost wons this year.
I tend to enjoy most forms of motorsports, but frankly its hard to be all that into F1 (even though I am a JPM fan) because the parity is just not there (machinery-wise). Of course, I've always loved spec series. I think series like the Toyota Atlantics, Barber Dodge, and even stuff dating back to the SCCA Showroom Stock racing.
What can I say, I guess I love parity...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisWRX [/i]
[B]Not trying to be an a$$, just so you know next time, it's brakes, not breaks.
Anyways, top F1 teams have much bigger budgets than CART teams. F1 technology is also far superior (mainly because of the extra cash I assume). [/B][/QUOTE]
Incidentally, the high dollar nature of F1 is also an allure for a lot of the drivers. I mean Villeneuve would rather stay in a car that is not suitable for his talents than to come back to CART for 1 year and probably kick some butt...
I mean its hard to take seriously the notion that the "top drivers in the world" are in F1 when there is only 1 of 4 possible victors this season. Those would be the drivers of the Ferrari and the Williams. McLaren has had some almost wons this year.
I tend to enjoy most forms of motorsports, but frankly its hard to be all that into F1 (even though I am a JPM fan) because the parity is just not there (machinery-wise). Of course, I've always loved spec series. I think series like the Toyota Atlantics, Barber Dodge, and even stuff dating back to the SCCA Showroom Stock racing.
What can I say, I guess I love parity...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by ChrisWRX [/i]
[B]Not trying to be an a$$, just so you know next time, it's brakes, not breaks.
Anyways, top F1 teams have much bigger budgets than CART teams. F1 technology is also far superior (mainly because of the extra cash I assume). [/B][/QUOTE]
| Skyline | 08-25-2002 11:08 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2.0 guy [/i]
[B]I mean its hard to take seriously the notion that the "top drivers in the world" are in F1 when there is only 1 of 4 possible victors this season. Those would be the drivers of the Ferrari and the Williams. McLaren has had some almost wons this year.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well there is the 107% rule. This eliminated a couple of cars this year, and it sort of maintains the quality of drivers in relation to the pole sitter.
[B]I mean its hard to take seriously the notion that the "top drivers in the world" are in F1 when there is only 1 of 4 possible victors this season. Those would be the drivers of the Ferrari and the Williams. McLaren has had some almost wons this year.
[/B][/QUOTE]
Well there is the 107% rule. This eliminated a couple of cars this year, and it sort of maintains the quality of drivers in relation to the pole sitter.
| Fred Zaplitny | 08-25-2002 12:25 PM |
Man, I knew someone would post this comparison. :rolleyes:
Let's not forget the CART guys have to shift too.
Let's not forget the CART guys have to shift too.
| HomerJay | 08-25-2002 12:25 PM |
Is this argument worth having since CART won't be around much longer. I think open wheeled racing has a bleak future in this country. Americans like V-8's going around in a circle. :rolleyes:
| TBreu007 | 08-25-2002 01:23 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by HomerJay [/i]
[B]Is this argument worth having since CART won't be around much longer. I think open wheeled racing has a bleak future in this country. Americans like V-8's going around in a circle. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
FYI
Champ cars use a turbocharged V8 and run quite a few ovals.
[B]Is this argument worth having since CART won't be around much longer. I think open wheeled racing has a bleak future in this country. Americans like V-8's going around in a circle. :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
FYI
Champ cars use a turbocharged V8 and run quite a few ovals.
| 2.0 guy | 08-25-2002 01:29 PM |
This is very true, and it keeps people who are truly uncompetitive (remember Hiro Matsu****a) from being a "moving chicane".
My reference was more to the fact that its realistically possible for "any" driver in CART to win if he has the skills. However, someone very talented in F1 who is driving a poor car will not win. I mean Villeneuve went from "hero" to "Zero" in a year's time. I don't think his skills deteriorated, just the car sucked.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Skyline [/i]
[B]
Well there is the 107% rule. This eliminated a couple of cars this year, and it sort of maintains the quality of drivers in relation to the pole sitter. [/B][/QUOTE]
My reference was more to the fact that its realistically possible for "any" driver in CART to win if he has the skills. However, someone very talented in F1 who is driving a poor car will not win. I mean Villeneuve went from "hero" to "Zero" in a year's time. I don't think his skills deteriorated, just the car sucked.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Skyline [/i]
[B]
Well there is the 107% rule. This eliminated a couple of cars this year, and it sort of maintains the quality of drivers in relation to the pole sitter. [/B][/QUOTE]
| pio!pio! | 08-25-2002 03:01 PM |
LOL the forum blanks out Hiro Matsush|ta's last name
| 2.0 guy | 08-25-2002 03:04 PM |
Geez, I didnt even think about that. Shows how much I use profanity on forums :lol:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by pio!pio! [/i]
[B]LOL the forum blanks out Hiro Matsush|ta's last name [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by pio!pio! [/i]
[B]LOL the forum blanks out Hiro Matsush|ta's last name [/B][/QUOTE]
| Skyline | 08-25-2002 03:07 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by TBreu007 [/i]
[B]
FYI
Champ cars use a turbocharged V8 and run quite a few ovals. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I read that next season CART may only be running 3 or 4 oval races. The rest will be road races.
[B]
FYI
Champ cars use a turbocharged V8 and run quite a few ovals. [/B][/QUOTE]
Actually, I read that next season CART may only be running 3 or 4 oval races. The rest will be road races.
| Fred Zaplitny | 08-25-2002 08:29 PM |
Now that we've seen CART cars compete on a regular F-1 track, I'd love to see the F-1 guys go at it at Fontana! I wonder if they could average 240! Of course the CART cars are restricted by power reduction and the Hanford device now, so they can't even do 240 anymore. It would be cool to see what the F-1 guys could do on a high speed oval though. Of course many of you snobs don't consider oval racing real racing. (flame suit on)
| 2.0 guy | 08-25-2002 10:03 PM |
Amen!
Of course, I used to wonder how the F1 cars would compare to CART on a higher speed race track. Something like old Hockenheim. F1 might still be quicker there, as I've heard that F1 cars would potentially be quicker at Road America, due to the corners. Hockenheim atleast has some fairly lengthy straights... actually, I mean HAD some lengthy straights :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]Now that we've seen CART cars compete on a regular F-1 track, I'd love to see the F-1 guys go at it at Fontana! I wonder if they could average 240! Of course the CART cars are restricted by power reduction and the Hanford device now, so they can't even do 240 anymore. It would be cool to see what the F-1 guys could do on a high speed oval though. Of course many of you snobs don't consider oval racing real racing. (flame suit on) [/B][/QUOTE]
Of course, I used to wonder how the F1 cars would compare to CART on a higher speed race track. Something like old Hockenheim. F1 might still be quicker there, as I've heard that F1 cars would potentially be quicker at Road America, due to the corners. Hockenheim atleast has some fairly lengthy straights... actually, I mean HAD some lengthy straights :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]Now that we've seen CART cars compete on a regular F-1 track, I'd love to see the F-1 guys go at it at Fontana! I wonder if they could average 240! Of course the CART cars are restricted by power reduction and the Hanford device now, so they can't even do 240 anymore. It would be cool to see what the F-1 guys could do on a high speed oval though. Of course many of you snobs don't consider oval racing real racing. (flame suit on) [/B][/QUOTE]
| Bonzo | 08-25-2002 11:09 PM |
apples to oranges.
one other difference is power steering. f1 has it, cart does not.
I don't believe cart has lost any of its great racing these past few years since the split. go cart its still an excellent road arcing series rivaling f1. just look at the attendence at CGV.
one other difference is power steering. f1 has it, cart does not.
I don't believe cart has lost any of its great racing these past few years since the split. go cart its still an excellent road arcing series rivaling f1. just look at the attendence at CGV.
| Fred Zaplitny | 08-25-2002 11:39 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Bonzo [/i]
[B]apples to oranges.
one other difference is power steering. f1 has it, cart does not.
I don't believe cart has lost any of its great racing these past few years since the split. go cart its still an excellent road arcing series rivaling f1. just look at the attendence at CGV. [/B][/QUOTE]
And if they had that attendance everywhere, they would have no problems. But they don't. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge CART fan and wish they had that reception everywhere. The fact is CART has lost it's identity in the states when the evil IRL took over the Indy 500. They may not recover from that. Only time will tell. As an avid CART fan I go into the 2003 season with great hope, but it will take a miracle to save this series.
Fred
[B]apples to oranges.
one other difference is power steering. f1 has it, cart does not.
I don't believe cart has lost any of its great racing these past few years since the split. go cart its still an excellent road arcing series rivaling f1. just look at the attendence at CGV. [/B][/QUOTE]
And if they had that attendance everywhere, they would have no problems. But they don't. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge CART fan and wish they had that reception everywhere. The fact is CART has lost it's identity in the states when the evil IRL took over the Indy 500. They may not recover from that. Only time will tell. As an avid CART fan I go into the 2003 season with great hope, but it will take a miracle to save this series.
Fred
| 2.0 guy | 08-26-2002 12:21 AM |
I like what Chris Pook is doing for CART, its just a shame that Joe Heitzler screwed up things so badly. CART truly has suffered some mis-management recently.
One other thing about CART from an identity standpoint is that merchandising SUCKS. When you can go and buy a NASCAR or even (dare I say it) IRL car scale model at the store, but can't find ANYTHING from CART... Of course the flip side is that if the fan base was there, it would make sense to take on merchandising.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]
And if they had that attendance everywhere, they would have no problems. But they don't. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge CART fan and wish they had that reception everywhere. The fact is CART has lost it's identity in the states when the evil IRL took over the Indy 500. They may not recover from that. Only time will tell. As an avid CART fan I go into the 2003 season with great hope, but it will take a miracle to save this series.
Fred [/B][/QUOTE]
One other thing about CART from an identity standpoint is that merchandising SUCKS. When you can go and buy a NASCAR or even (dare I say it) IRL car scale model at the store, but can't find ANYTHING from CART... Of course the flip side is that if the fan base was there, it would make sense to take on merchandising.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]
And if they had that attendance everywhere, they would have no problems. But they don't. Don't get me wrong I'm a huge CART fan and wish they had that reception everywhere. The fact is CART has lost it's identity in the states when the evil IRL took over the Indy 500. They may not recover from that. Only time will tell. As an avid CART fan I go into the 2003 season with great hope, but it will take a miracle to save this series.
Fred [/B][/QUOTE]
| Ferg | 08-26-2002 08:41 AM |
It was nice to see the CART cars run on a real circuit for once instead of an airport or temporary street circuit. With Road America being the only other world-class track (not safety-wise of course) I'm glad they've added Montreal, I hope it lasts. I thought the race was decent, but as usual, the announcing was terrible, I really wish I could just turn off the commentary.
Ferg
Ferg
| rkkwan | 08-26-2002 10:39 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Ferg [/i]
[B]It was nice to see the CART cars run on a real circuit for once instead of an airport or temporary street circuit. With Road America being the only other world-class track (not safety-wise of course) I'm glad they've added Montreal, I hope it lasts. I thought the race was decent, but as usual, the announcing was terrible, I really wish I could just turn off the commentary.
Ferg [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, Montreal is a nice addition. But CART does run at two other nice tracks besides RA: Laguna Seca and Mid-Ohio. Maybe not too many people know about Mid-Ohio, but I think Laguna Seca is definitely "world-class". [Not quite sure about the Mexico City track.]
The problem is that CART is not getting TV deals - I mean, many cable systems still don't have Speed. So, they require runnings at big cities to get the buzz. I think it's boring to see the cars run around the Cleveland Airport too, but they get a good crowd and network TV coverage!
I would also like to see them run at more nice permanent road course too. Places like VIR or Road Atlanta. But you think you'll get enough people from those NASCAR country to fill the stands? Doubt it. And the local TV networks and sponsors would be spending their time on NASCAR too.
I too would like the series to thrive, but I just don't see how they could do that.
-Ray
[B]It was nice to see the CART cars run on a real circuit for once instead of an airport or temporary street circuit. With Road America being the only other world-class track (not safety-wise of course) I'm glad they've added Montreal, I hope it lasts. I thought the race was decent, but as usual, the announcing was terrible, I really wish I could just turn off the commentary.
Ferg [/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, Montreal is a nice addition. But CART does run at two other nice tracks besides RA: Laguna Seca and Mid-Ohio. Maybe not too many people know about Mid-Ohio, but I think Laguna Seca is definitely "world-class". [Not quite sure about the Mexico City track.]
The problem is that CART is not getting TV deals - I mean, many cable systems still don't have Speed. So, they require runnings at big cities to get the buzz. I think it's boring to see the cars run around the Cleveland Airport too, but they get a good crowd and network TV coverage!
I would also like to see them run at more nice permanent road course too. Places like VIR or Road Atlanta. But you think you'll get enough people from those NASCAR country to fill the stands? Doubt it. And the local TV networks and sponsors would be spending their time on NASCAR too.
I too would like the series to thrive, but I just don't see how they could do that.
-Ray
| 2.0 guy | 08-26-2002 12:12 PM |
Portland Intl Raceway is a decent road course as well, but maybe I'm partial since its the only one I've driven on :D
While I will admit that CART isn't getting huge network deals like NASCAR, the setup this year is better coverage than ABC/ESPN ever gave the series. I mean atleast Speed doesn't cut away "with 1 lap to go because we have to air golf" :)
Its wierd how Speed is offered. Some places, its part of the upgraded basic. Here in the Portland area, you have to get the "silver digital upgrade". This means you have to pay about 60 bucks instead of the usual 30 to get Speed.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
Yes, Montreal is a nice addition. But CART does run at two other nice tracks besides RA: Laguna Seca and Mid-Ohio. Maybe not too many people know about Mid-Ohio, but I think Laguna Seca is definitely "world-class". [Not quite sure about the Mexico City track.]
The problem is that CART is not getting TV deals - I mean, many cable systems still don't have Speed. So, they require runnings at big cities to get the buzz. I think it's boring to see the cars run around the Cleveland Airport too, but they get a good crowd and network TV coverage!
I would also like to see them run at more nice permanent road course too. Places like VIR or Road Atlanta. But you think you'll get enough people from those NASCAR country to fill the stands? Doubt it. And the local TV networks and sponsors would be spending their time on NASCAR too.
I too would like the series to thrive, but I just don't see how they could do that.
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
While I will admit that CART isn't getting huge network deals like NASCAR, the setup this year is better coverage than ABC/ESPN ever gave the series. I mean atleast Speed doesn't cut away "with 1 lap to go because we have to air golf" :)
Its wierd how Speed is offered. Some places, its part of the upgraded basic. Here in the Portland area, you have to get the "silver digital upgrade". This means you have to pay about 60 bucks instead of the usual 30 to get Speed.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
Yes, Montreal is a nice addition. But CART does run at two other nice tracks besides RA: Laguna Seca and Mid-Ohio. Maybe not too many people know about Mid-Ohio, but I think Laguna Seca is definitely "world-class". [Not quite sure about the Mexico City track.]
The problem is that CART is not getting TV deals - I mean, many cable systems still don't have Speed. So, they require runnings at big cities to get the buzz. I think it's boring to see the cars run around the Cleveland Airport too, but they get a good crowd and network TV coverage!
I would also like to see them run at more nice permanent road course too. Places like VIR or Road Atlanta. But you think you'll get enough people from those NASCAR country to fill the stands? Doubt it. And the local TV networks and sponsors would be spending their time on NASCAR too.
I too would like the series to thrive, but I just don't see how they could do that.
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
| rkkwan | 08-26-2002 12:15 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by 2.0 guy [/i]
[B]Portland Intl Raceway is a decent road course as well, but maybe I'm partial since its the only one I've driven on :D
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry about the omission. I simply "forgot" about Portland. I've heard a lot of good things about it, and passed by it on I-5 on my visit last fall. :)
-Ray
[B]Portland Intl Raceway is a decent road course as well, but maybe I'm partial since its the only one I've driven on :D
[/B][/QUOTE]
Sorry about the omission. I simply "forgot" about Portland. I've heard a lot of good things about it, and passed by it on I-5 on my visit last fall. :)
-Ray
| Fred Zaplitny | 08-26-2002 12:22 PM |
If you guys want to talk to Chris Pook and tell him your ideas for changing CART into F-1 (that's what you want right?) Talk to him live at 1pm in the ESPN.com chatroom. I just saw the ad over at that websight. Check the RPM section, then click on the CART link.
| rkkwan | 08-26-2002 12:58 PM |
Well, just trying to throw some ideas out here...
Since IRL has already claimed most, if not all, the oval racing fans, why don't CART just concentrate on road courses and "good, successful" street circuits? There are plenty of venus for that!
Canada - All three races seem to be successful.
Mexico - Monterrey is popular, so I think Mexico City should be too.
Australia - Same with Surfers Paradise.
So, that's 6 races that can stay.
Germany & England - Forget them and let IRL runs those ovals. And there are enough Forumla 3, 3000 and 3000000 running over in Europe. Unless they can get some interesting street circuits in Downtown Paris, London, or Berlin.
Japan - I believe Motegi has a road course inside/outside the oval. Run that instead.
So, 7 down, 13 US races to run.
Street circuits - Long Beach has always been popular, and I think Miami should be good too. And with the success of ALMS running in Washington, DC, that's probably one to add.
Cleveland is boring to watch, and I doubt Denver would be successful in the long run. Look at Houston. It was a big deal the first time, but not so afterwards. So, cut those.
Which makes 10 permanent road courses to be the anchor of the series. And are there 10 nice road courses in the US? Of course!
Already on schedule: Portland, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Road America. Fontana can be changed to use the infield and part of oval. So, we just need five new events.
Tracks to choose from: Willow Springs, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Virginia International, Summit Point, New Hampshire (with road course), Sears Point, Las Vegas (with infield course), Mid-America, etc, etc... and perhaps even the F1 course at Indy!!!
So, what you're getting is a N. American based premiere open-wheel road racing series, which should have its appeal.
-Ray
Since IRL has already claimed most, if not all, the oval racing fans, why don't CART just concentrate on road courses and "good, successful" street circuits? There are plenty of venus for that!
Canada - All three races seem to be successful.
Mexico - Monterrey is popular, so I think Mexico City should be too.
Australia - Same with Surfers Paradise.
So, that's 6 races that can stay.
Germany & England - Forget them and let IRL runs those ovals. And there are enough Forumla 3, 3000 and 3000000 running over in Europe. Unless they can get some interesting street circuits in Downtown Paris, London, or Berlin.
Japan - I believe Motegi has a road course inside/outside the oval. Run that instead.
So, 7 down, 13 US races to run.
Street circuits - Long Beach has always been popular, and I think Miami should be good too. And with the success of ALMS running in Washington, DC, that's probably one to add.
Cleveland is boring to watch, and I doubt Denver would be successful in the long run. Look at Houston. It was a big deal the first time, but not so afterwards. So, cut those.
Which makes 10 permanent road courses to be the anchor of the series. And are there 10 nice road courses in the US? Of course!
Already on schedule: Portland, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Road America. Fontana can be changed to use the infield and part of oval. So, we just need five new events.
Tracks to choose from: Willow Springs, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Virginia International, Summit Point, New Hampshire (with road course), Sears Point, Las Vegas (with infield course), Mid-America, etc, etc... and perhaps even the F1 course at Indy!!!
So, what you're getting is a N. American based premiere open-wheel road racing series, which should have its appeal.
-Ray
| JTREX | 08-26-2002 03:09 PM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Osgood30 [/i]
[B]I think that F1 breaks are way better then Cart's. At one of the F1 races last year they said that it takes 6 months to make a break pad for F1 car, and it takes 1 race to destroy it. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am about 90% sure of this
CART: Cast Iron Rotors
F1: Carbon Fiber Rotors
Huge difference in braking.
[B]I think that F1 breaks are way better then Cart's. At one of the F1 races last year they said that it takes 6 months to make a break pad for F1 car, and it takes 1 race to destroy it. [/B][/QUOTE]
I am about 90% sure of this
CART: Cast Iron Rotors
F1: Carbon Fiber Rotors
Huge difference in braking.
| 2.0 guy | 08-26-2002 03:47 PM |
No problem on the omission... :)
I used to remember a few years back. Portland marked the start of CART's road racing season... Now, Laguna Seca, which used to be the finale is actually the week before Portland...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
Sorry about the omission. I simply "forgot" about Portland. I've heard a lot of good things about it, and passed by it on I-5 on my visit last fall. :)
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
I used to remember a few years back. Portland marked the start of CART's road racing season... Now, Laguna Seca, which used to be the finale is actually the week before Portland...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]
Sorry about the omission. I simply "forgot" about Portland. I've heard a lot of good things about it, and passed by it on I-5 on my visit last fall. :)
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
| GarySheehan | 09-17-2002 10:29 PM |
JTREX,
The slowing of a racecar is still limited by the tire adhesion, not the brakes. Both F1 brakes and CART brakes can lock the wheels at just about any speed. The main reason for using carbon-carbon brakes is reduction in overall weight, reduction in unsprung-weight and heat disspation, I believe.
An F1 car can outbrake a CART car because it is several hundred pounds lighter and has more downforce.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The slowing of a racecar is still limited by the tire adhesion, not the brakes. Both F1 brakes and CART brakes can lock the wheels at just about any speed. The main reason for using carbon-carbon brakes is reduction in overall weight, reduction in unsprung-weight and heat disspation, I believe.
An F1 car can outbrake a CART car because it is several hundred pounds lighter and has more downforce.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| Bonzo | 09-17-2002 11:06 PM |
since this has popped back up. did anyone see the article in speedvision with Damattas(sp) thoughts on his F1 drive/test?
It was quite interesting and not what I was really expecting in terms of the so called superiority of an F1 car and its driving characteristics.
It should be somewhere in their web site.
It was quite interesting and not what I was really expecting in terms of the so called superiority of an F1 car and its driving characteristics.
It should be somewhere in their web site.
| OnTheGas | 09-18-2002 12:47 AM |
Da Matta Interviews on Speed Channel
Bonzo... here ya go:
[URL=http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1507]May 17th - Da Matta Tests Toyota F1 Car[/URL]
[URL=http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1686]May 29th - Da Matta Discusses F1 Test[/URL]
What surprised you?
[URL=http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1507]May 17th - Da Matta Tests Toyota F1 Car[/URL]
[URL=http://www.speedtv.com/auto/?lvl=3a&cat=17&id=1686]May 29th - Da Matta Discusses F1 Test[/URL]
What surprised you?
| OnTheGas | 09-18-2002 01:21 AM |
CART Into F3000
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Fred Zaplitny [/i]
[B]If you guys want to talk to Chris Pook and tell him your ideas for changing CART into F-1 (that's what you want right?)...[/B][/QUOTE]Well no, that wouldn't be wise, because we already have F1. Instead, CART needs to become a better feeder series of talent for F1. CART should cultivate being a better F3000 than F3000. So that hot-shoe drivers moving up from F3 and other junior formulas come to CART instead of F3000, knowing that they are likely to move up into a F1 seat if they shine in CART.
[list]To do this, CART should look at:[*]drop the overall weight of the cars to make them handle better and faster
[*]eliminate rolling starts on road courses (standing starts only),
[*]eliminate full course yellows as much as possible by using cranes to lift out disabled cars...[/list]I'm sure there are other ideas that would make CART more attractive for hot shoe talent headed to F1.
The benefit of marketing itself as a springboard to F1, is that we will see more of the best hotshoe talent race and mature here in North America. It was great to see Jacques Villeneuve's two years here in CART, as well as his two years in Formula Atlantics. We were fortunate to have Montoya over here as well for 2 years. And while Zanardi was not a F1 world champion, we were fortunate that he came over from F1 after having lost his ride at Lotus, and used CART to get back into F1. When these guys were racing here, they made the paddock buzz with excitement... everyone talked about these drivers, measured their performance against these drivers, thought about them... More excitement equals more butts in the stands...
Most importantly, CART should be an inspiration for young American and Canadian kids to get into kart racing, so they may see if they have what it takes to be a F1 world champion! CART would be an accessable example of the excitement and beauty of professional open wheel road racing. I think we need to have an American F1 world champion again, and there are plenty of wicked fast kart racing kids in the states, and karting is a growing sport, so we'll get more and more. From these ranks will come the next American F1 champion.
Ya know, if da Matta gets the Toyota F1 ride and succeeds, then we another step toward being a legitimate feeder series for F1. It's all good!
[user steps down from soap-box]
[B]If you guys want to talk to Chris Pook and tell him your ideas for changing CART into F-1 (that's what you want right?)...[/B][/QUOTE]Well no, that wouldn't be wise, because we already have F1. Instead, CART needs to become a better feeder series of talent for F1. CART should cultivate being a better F3000 than F3000. So that hot-shoe drivers moving up from F3 and other junior formulas come to CART instead of F3000, knowing that they are likely to move up into a F1 seat if they shine in CART.
[list]To do this, CART should look at:[*]drop the overall weight of the cars to make them handle better and faster
[*]eliminate rolling starts on road courses (standing starts only),
[*]eliminate full course yellows as much as possible by using cranes to lift out disabled cars...[/list]I'm sure there are other ideas that would make CART more attractive for hot shoe talent headed to F1.
The benefit of marketing itself as a springboard to F1, is that we will see more of the best hotshoe talent race and mature here in North America. It was great to see Jacques Villeneuve's two years here in CART, as well as his two years in Formula Atlantics. We were fortunate to have Montoya over here as well for 2 years. And while Zanardi was not a F1 world champion, we were fortunate that he came over from F1 after having lost his ride at Lotus, and used CART to get back into F1. When these guys were racing here, they made the paddock buzz with excitement... everyone talked about these drivers, measured their performance against these drivers, thought about them... More excitement equals more butts in the stands...
Most importantly, CART should be an inspiration for young American and Canadian kids to get into kart racing, so they may see if they have what it takes to be a F1 world champion! CART would be an accessable example of the excitement and beauty of professional open wheel road racing. I think we need to have an American F1 world champion again, and there are plenty of wicked fast kart racing kids in the states, and karting is a growing sport, so we'll get more and more. From these ranks will come the next American F1 champion.
Ya know, if da Matta gets the Toyota F1 ride and succeeds, then we another step toward being a legitimate feeder series for F1. It's all good!
[user steps down from soap-box]
| TBreu007 | 09-18-2002 01:28 AM |
Lighter carbon fiber rotors also help the front wheels turn better by reducing gyro effect of spinning mass.
Kind of IRL vs. CART related, but Helio Castroneves (sorry Helio if I misspelled your last name) will be testing shortly for the coveted Toyota F1 ride too. He has been practicing nearly every day for the past 2 months or so at my local kart track here in S. Florida. I've learned a lot about my own lines in the kart just by watching the guy...I should say the master...on video. Racing karts on sprint tracks (small road courses) used to be a big no-no for the roundey-round boys, but from what I hear, his current team owner is being very lenient and supportive.
Helio is a super nice guy by the way.
It will be interesting how he compares IRL cars to F1!
Kind of IRL vs. CART related, but Helio Castroneves (sorry Helio if I misspelled your last name) will be testing shortly for the coveted Toyota F1 ride too. He has been practicing nearly every day for the past 2 months or so at my local kart track here in S. Florida. I've learned a lot about my own lines in the kart just by watching the guy...I should say the master...on video. Racing karts on sprint tracks (small road courses) used to be a big no-no for the roundey-round boys, but from what I hear, his current team owner is being very lenient and supportive.
Helio is a super nice guy by the way.
It will be interesting how he compares IRL cars to F1!
| west_aust | 09-18-2002 10:06 AM |
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rkkwan [/i]
[B]Well, just trying to throw some ideas out here...
Since IRL has already claimed most, if not all, the oval racing fans, why don't CART just concentrate on road courses and "good, successful" street circuits? There are plenty of venus for that!
Canada - All three races seem to be successful.
Mexico - Monterrey is popular, so I think Mexico City should be too.
Australia - Same with Surfers Paradise.
So, that's 6 races that can stay.
Germany & England - Forget them and let IRL runs those ovals. And there are enough Forumla 3, 3000 and 3000000 running over in Europe. Unless they can get some interesting street circuits in Downtown Paris, London, or Berlin.
Japan - I believe Motegi has a road course inside/outside the oval. Run that instead.
So, 7 down, 13 US races to run.
Street circuits - Long Beach has always been popular, and I think Miami should be good too. And with the success of ALMS running in Washington, DC, that's probably one to add.
Cleveland is boring to watch, and I doubt Denver would be successful in the long run. Look at Houston. It was a big deal the first time, but not so afterwards. So, cut those.
Which makes 10 permanent road courses to be the anchor of the series. And are there 10 nice road courses in the US? Of course!
Already on schedule: Portland, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Road America. Fontana can be changed to use the infield and part of oval. So, we just need five new events.
Tracks to choose from: Willow Springs, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Virginia International, Summit Point, New Hampshire (with road course), Sears Point, Las Vegas (with infield course), Mid-America, etc, etc... and perhaps even the F1 course at Indy!!!
So, what you're getting is a N. American based premiere open-wheel road racing series, which should have its appeal.
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
There is somethings that are undoable in that
Japan Motegi is owned by Honda, that's why this circuit will be in irl next year.
Running the F1 circuit at Indy :) i can imagine Chris Pook going to Tony George : Hey tony, i want to race my CART into your infield circuit at indy if it's okay for you.... CART race on IRL owned track
Than many of the circuits you've name are property of IMS, who owns the Indy speedway and many other circuit across the nation
[B]Well, just trying to throw some ideas out here...
Since IRL has already claimed most, if not all, the oval racing fans, why don't CART just concentrate on road courses and "good, successful" street circuits? There are plenty of venus for that!
Canada - All three races seem to be successful.
Mexico - Monterrey is popular, so I think Mexico City should be too.
Australia - Same with Surfers Paradise.
So, that's 6 races that can stay.
Germany & England - Forget them and let IRL runs those ovals. And there are enough Forumla 3, 3000 and 3000000 running over in Europe. Unless they can get some interesting street circuits in Downtown Paris, London, or Berlin.
Japan - I believe Motegi has a road course inside/outside the oval. Run that instead.
So, 7 down, 13 US races to run.
Street circuits - Long Beach has always been popular, and I think Miami should be good too. And with the success of ALMS running in Washington, DC, that's probably one to add.
Cleveland is boring to watch, and I doubt Denver would be successful in the long run. Look at Houston. It was a big deal the first time, but not so afterwards. So, cut those.
Which makes 10 permanent road courses to be the anchor of the series. And are there 10 nice road courses in the US? Of course!
Already on schedule: Portland, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Road America. Fontana can be changed to use the infield and part of oval. So, we just need five new events.
Tracks to choose from: Willow Springs, Watkins Glen, Road Atlanta, Virginia International, Summit Point, New Hampshire (with road course), Sears Point, Las Vegas (with infield course), Mid-America, etc, etc... and perhaps even the F1 course at Indy!!!
So, what you're getting is a N. American based premiere open-wheel road racing series, which should have its appeal.
-Ray [/B][/QUOTE]
There is somethings that are undoable in that
Japan Motegi is owned by Honda, that's why this circuit will be in irl next year.
Running the F1 circuit at Indy :) i can imagine Chris Pook going to Tony George : Hey tony, i want to race my CART into your infield circuit at indy if it's okay for you.... CART race on IRL owned track
Than many of the circuits you've name are property of IMS, who owns the Indy speedway and many other circuit across the nation
| rkkwan | 09-18-2002 11:53 AM |
west_aust -
I know running Indy is a long shot, but my point is that CART should make itself a totally different series than IRL, so that the two don't really compete against each other. Read the posts on this forum! Oval fans don't care too much about road courses, and vice versa...
And the track owners (not so much Honda, but definitely Tony George) shouldn't hesitate to fill their stands! Seriously, the biggest competitor in terms of audience to IRL is NASCAR, not CART. And NASCAR runs at Indy. Nowadays, Indy is used for 3 days of racing a year. I don't see why Tony George wouldn't like the facility to be used more.
I don't know the situation at Motegi. But why not let IRL runs the oval, and CART runs the road course? And maybe the same weekend? :D Don't you think that'd really benefit the track owner Honda, the media, all types of race fans in Japan and the US?
-Ray
I know running Indy is a long shot, but my point is that CART should make itself a totally different series than IRL, so that the two don't really compete against each other. Read the posts on this forum! Oval fans don't care too much about road courses, and vice versa...
And the track owners (not so much Honda, but definitely Tony George) shouldn't hesitate to fill their stands! Seriously, the biggest competitor in terms of audience to IRL is NASCAR, not CART. And NASCAR runs at Indy. Nowadays, Indy is used for 3 days of racing a year. I don't see why Tony George wouldn't like the facility to be used more.
I don't know the situation at Motegi. But why not let IRL runs the oval, and CART runs the road course? And maybe the same weekend? :D Don't you think that'd really benefit the track owner Honda, the media, all types of race fans in Japan and the US?
-Ray
| Bonzo | 09-18-2002 12:58 PM |
Thanks for digging them up OTG.
copied from the article.
Acceleration in first, second and third gear is faster than my champ car. Fourth gear is equal. In fifth and sixth the champ car is faster. I think because the champ car is heavier, it takes a little more to get it going. The F-1 has more drag so it's tougher to accelerate at higher speeds."
"Fast corners was the toughest part. You can go so fast, it takes a little while to get confidence. But they were also the most fun."
"The groove tires are a little more forgiving than the slicks. On a champ car you feel its going to lock, and then it locks. In the F-1 car the tires give you a lot of advice, 'Hey I'm going to lock… I'm going to lock. And then it locks.'"
"Braking points are less different than I thought, but it definitely slows quicker than the champ car. It's definitely better but not as much as I thought. The carbon brakes make a difference. Not so much in stopping the car, but in the effort and pressure it takes."
What about the talk that the high tech F-1 cars have taken away the need for driver skill?
"The coordination and the timing… you have less of that because the car does that for you. In champ cars you have to coordinate the gears and blip the throttle and play with the shift. But you need some other skills in F-1 that you don't need in the champ cars. You need better reflexes in the F-1 car. In the fast corners everything is moving so much faster.
"The champ car is physically a lot tougher. You're changing gears and you don't have power steering. The power steering is great. I wish we had it on the champ car."
I have always heard how F1 cars were soo hard to drive and takes so much skill. The areas that popped out at me were the acceleration, braking, tire grip and total coordination compared to cart. Or basically just about every aspect was put into perspective. They are not some unyeilding beast as I previously thought. They are different but equally as hard to compete and win with.
Where do I sign up? :p
copied from the article.
Acceleration in first, second and third gear is faster than my champ car. Fourth gear is equal. In fifth and sixth the champ car is faster. I think because the champ car is heavier, it takes a little more to get it going. The F-1 has more drag so it's tougher to accelerate at higher speeds."
"Fast corners was the toughest part. You can go so fast, it takes a little while to get confidence. But they were also the most fun."
"The groove tires are a little more forgiving than the slicks. On a champ car you feel its going to lock, and then it locks. In the F-1 car the tires give you a lot of advice, 'Hey I'm going to lock… I'm going to lock. And then it locks.'"
"Braking points are less different than I thought, but it definitely slows quicker than the champ car. It's definitely better but not as much as I thought. The carbon brakes make a difference. Not so much in stopping the car, but in the effort and pressure it takes."
What about the talk that the high tech F-1 cars have taken away the need for driver skill?
"The coordination and the timing… you have less of that because the car does that for you. In champ cars you have to coordinate the gears and blip the throttle and play with the shift. But you need some other skills in F-1 that you don't need in the champ cars. You need better reflexes in the F-1 car. In the fast corners everything is moving so much faster.
"The champ car is physically a lot tougher. You're changing gears and you don't have power steering. The power steering is great. I wish we had it on the champ car."
I have always heard how F1 cars were soo hard to drive and takes so much skill. The areas that popped out at me were the acceleration, braking, tire grip and total coordination compared to cart. Or basically just about every aspect was put into perspective. They are not some unyeilding beast as I previously thought. They are different but equally as hard to compete and win with.
Where do I sign up? :p
| subyguy2 | 09-19-2002 12:58 PM |
what is the current output of the cart cars with the limitation, i forgot.
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