| REXLR8 | 05-10-2006 03:24 PM |
cheap formula series
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not much to do with subarus, but i have been thinking more and more about formula cars. the cheapest ive seen are the formula ford's. does anyone have experience with racing formula cars? what car did you race? how much did it cost rougly for a season? was it worth the money? thanks for the input in advance!
| CirrusWRX | 05-10-2006 06:35 PM |
Probably not the answer you're looking for, but you said "cheap" so thought it might be okay to throw in the obligatory: "Ever thought about karting?" comment.
| RichardM | 05-10-2006 06:57 PM |
Karting seems to be the most bang for the buck it seems. As to your original question, Formula Ford is not particularly cheap if you want to be at the head of the pack but can be reasonable if you just want to have loads of fun.
Try asking this question on the SCCA.com forums.
Try asking this question on the SCCA.com forums.
| REXLR8 | 05-10-2006 07:15 PM |
[QUOTE=CirrusWRX]Probably not the answer you're looking for, but you said "cheap" so thought it might be okay to throw in the obligatory: "Ever thought about karting?" comment.[/QUOTE]
oh no, thats a great awnser. i have been around karts and i would love to own a rotax and compete with it. i just didnt know if the cost for a formula car was comparable as i know pretty much nothing about formulas. thanks for the honesty
oh no, thats a great awnser. i have been around karts and i would love to own a rotax and compete with it. i just didnt know if the cost for a formula car was comparable as i know pretty much nothing about formulas. thanks for the honesty
| cooleyjb | 05-10-2006 11:42 PM |
cheapest formula is not formula ford
it's formula vee.
Karting is immensely cheaper than any formula racing.
it's formula vee.
Karting is immensely cheaper than any formula racing.
| adhowe70 | 05-10-2006 11:56 PM |
Ballpark FF1600 costs:
FF1600 - even a cheap one in need of some serious TLC - $10,000
Annual maintenance (minus major repairs) - $5,000
Entry Fees - $3,000
Tires - $2000
FF2000 - double those costs
FA - triple them
FM - between FF2000 and FA
FV - cut them in half?
F500 is probably comparable to FV, but are those really cars?
FF1600 - even a cheap one in need of some serious TLC - $10,000
Annual maintenance (minus major repairs) - $5,000
Entry Fees - $3,000
Tires - $2000
FF2000 - double those costs
FA - triple them
FM - between FF2000 and FA
FV - cut them in half?
F500 is probably comparable to FV, but are those really cars?
| hillman | 05-11-2006 01:02 AM |
Other than karting, see if you can find an already-converted Formula First. Or a Vee that'll need little to convert.
| leecea | 05-11-2006 08:20 AM |
[QUOTE=REXLR8]not much to do with subarus, but i have been thinking more and more about formula cars. the cheapest ive seen are the formula ford's. does anyone have experience with racing formula cars? what car did you race? how much did it cost rougly for a season? was it worth the money? thanks for the input in advance![/QUOTE]
What's the particular attraction to formula cars? Not saying it's wrong, just curious. I would think they'd be less "fun" in the sense that you'd have to be so careful about contact all the time.
What's the particular attraction to formula cars? Not saying it's wrong, just curious. I would think they'd be less "fun" in the sense that you'd have to be so careful about contact all the time.
| CirrusWRX | 05-11-2006 09:40 AM |
Again, not to throw this topic in a tailspin, but would you possibly consider "formula" series something along the lines of a spec series? Like spec miata, or spec (*gasp*) neon? Or do you want the thrill of open-wheeled racing?
| 10th Warrior | 05-11-2006 10:25 AM |
[quote]FA - triple them[/quote]
That would be one po-dunk FA, Andy :)
That would be one po-dunk FA, Andy :)
| GarySheehan | 05-11-2006 10:31 AM |
[QUOTE=leecea]What's the particular attraction to formula cars? Not saying it's wrong, just curious. I would think they'd be less "fun" in the sense that you'd have to be so careful about contact all the time.[/QUOTE]
The attraction is that formula cars are 100% race cars with no compromises. When you drive a formula car on track, and it does everything you ask of it without issues like terminal understeer, overheating brakes, crappy camber curves, blah, blah, blah, it's an amazing driving experience.
Driving a formula car at speed is all about driving to your maximum capability. Driving a production based race car at speed is all about driving the car around its inherent handling flaws.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
The attraction is that formula cars are 100% race cars with no compromises. When you drive a formula car on track, and it does everything you ask of it without issues like terminal understeer, overheating brakes, crappy camber curves, blah, blah, blah, it's an amazing driving experience.
Driving a formula car at speed is all about driving to your maximum capability. Driving a production based race car at speed is all about driving the car around its inherent handling flaws.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url]
| cooleyjb | 05-11-2006 10:35 AM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan] Driving a production based race car at speed is all about driving the car around its inherent handling flaws.
[/QUOTE]
:lol:
[/QUOTE]
:lol:
| leecea | 05-11-2006 10:57 AM |
[QUOTE=GarySheehan]The attraction is that formula cars are 100% race cars with no compromises. When you drive a formula car on track, and it does everything you ask of it without issues like terminal understeer, overheating brakes, crappy camber curves, blah, blah, blah, it's an amazing driving experience.
Driving a formula car at speed is all about driving to your maximum capability. Driving a production based race car at speed is all about driving the car around its inherent handling flaws.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks, I didn't think of that. Purity of purpose can make something special.
Driving a formula car at speed is all about driving to your maximum capability. Driving a production based race car at speed is all about driving the car around its inherent handling flaws.
Gary
Sheehan Motor Racing
[url]www.teamSMR.com[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks, I didn't think of that. Purity of purpose can make something special.
| Jon Bogert | 05-11-2006 11:09 AM |
I thought a bit about this, but the options are either too primitive (karting, FV) or too expensive to be at all competitive (pretty much everything else).
I'd like to see a formula series similar in spirit to the British 750MC racing. Lots of chassis freedom, but a controlled engine and enough limitations to make sure a big spender doesn't run away with everything. A series that rewards skilled home fabricators more than "gotta buy the chassis du jour" guys.
Maybe something like a slightly larger F500 with real suspension?
The Locost (lotus 7 replica) concept might translate here. Welding your own chassis up from a bundle of tubes would separate the dillitantes from the hardcore guys pretty fast, I would think.
I'd like to see a formula series similar in spirit to the British 750MC racing. Lots of chassis freedom, but a controlled engine and enough limitations to make sure a big spender doesn't run away with everything. A series that rewards skilled home fabricators more than "gotta buy the chassis du jour" guys.
Maybe something like a slightly larger F500 with real suspension?
The Locost (lotus 7 replica) concept might translate here. Welding your own chassis up from a bundle of tubes would separate the dillitantes from the hardcore guys pretty fast, I would think.
| cooleyjb | 05-11-2006 11:38 AM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]I thought a bit about this, but the options are either too primitive (karting, FV)
[/QUOTE]
After having been to Moran Raceway in CA the day before a national kart race I would never call karting primitive.
The effort behind the big teams is IMPRESSIVE. Especially for some of the kids.
We're talking team mechanics, $150,000 trailer setups, catered food for the kids, etc.
If you ever have a chance to see Moran. Go there. They have a 1000' front straight which has a banked 90 degree turn at the end of it. The fast people go flat out through the turn and the chassis flexes enough to scrape the ground. Absolutely amazing. It took me about 10 laps to get to that level in KT100, I never got there in a shifter.
I might just be misinterpreting your definition of primitive though too. ;)
[/QUOTE]
After having been to Moran Raceway in CA the day before a national kart race I would never call karting primitive.
The effort behind the big teams is IMPRESSIVE. Especially for some of the kids.
We're talking team mechanics, $150,000 trailer setups, catered food for the kids, etc.
If you ever have a chance to see Moran. Go there. They have a 1000' front straight which has a banked 90 degree turn at the end of it. The fast people go flat out through the turn and the chassis flexes enough to scrape the ground. Absolutely amazing. It took me about 10 laps to get to that level in KT100, I never got there in a shifter.
I might just be misinterpreting your definition of primitive though too. ;)
| adhowe70 | 05-11-2006 11:50 AM |
[QUOTE=10th Warrior]That would be one po-dunk FA, Andy :)[/QUOTE]
A cheap one in need of serious TLC...
A cheap one in need of serious TLC...
| Jack | 05-11-2006 11:51 AM |
Are you considering only wheel to wheel? Schools or time trials can be significantly cheaper. Old IT front wheel drive SCCA cars are always for sale. Gather $4k together and you're ready to go. It's a far cry from open wheel, but there are less limitations. Most schools won't let in a single seater unless it's a special circumstance (experianced driver who's never done an event with that particular club, for example). If there's a passenger seat, an instructor can still go with you.
jack (my car's a former SCCA CRX)
jack (my car's a former SCCA CRX)
| REXLR8 | 05-11-2006 05:28 PM |
[QUOTE=Jack ffr1846]Are you considering only wheel to wheel? Schools or time trials can be significantly cheaper. Old IT front wheel drive SCCA cars are always for sale. Gather $4k together and you're ready to go. It's a far cry from open wheel, but there are less limitations. Most schools won't let in a single seater unless it's a special circumstance (experianced driver who's never done an event with that particular club, for example). If there's a passenger seat, an instructor can still go with you.
jack (my car's a former SCCA CRX)[/QUOTE]
ah yes jack. we have spoken before on NEMS and BMS. i think i will look into schools like skip barber or jim russell. as to why formulas? i think gary hit the nail right on the head. i love the thrill of open wheel racing and i love the handling characteristics. and the cars themselves are pure. they are just straight up race cars. i have a miata sitting at my house right now, but im really not sure if i want a spec miata or just a nice daily driver so i can further modify my wrx. haha all of this makes me realize how much further i need to look into this stuff. thanks guys
jack (my car's a former SCCA CRX)[/QUOTE]
ah yes jack. we have spoken before on NEMS and BMS. i think i will look into schools like skip barber or jim russell. as to why formulas? i think gary hit the nail right on the head. i love the thrill of open wheel racing and i love the handling characteristics. and the cars themselves are pure. they are just straight up race cars. i have a miata sitting at my house right now, but im really not sure if i want a spec miata or just a nice daily driver so i can further modify my wrx. haha all of this makes me realize how much further i need to look into this stuff. thanks guys
| Jon Bogert | 05-11-2006 06:32 PM |
[quote]I might just be misinterpreting your definition of primitive though too.[/quote]No real suspension or brakes is what I meant. I'm sure they're very fast, though. I know there's a guy in Australia who's been designing kart chassis with working suspension. Naturally they're not legal anywhere.
| AlexP | 05-11-2006 09:59 PM |
[QUOTE=Jon Bogert]
Maybe something like a slightly larger F500 with real suspension?
[/QUOTE]
Formula SAE.
[IMG]http://maepro.uta.edu/fsae/cars/04car-team.jpg[/IMG]
Too bad nobody will copy the formula and change the chassis requirements to be more suited to road racing (ie, better crash protection)....
Maybe something like a slightly larger F500 with real suspension?
[/QUOTE]
Formula SAE.
[IMG]http://maepro.uta.edu/fsae/cars/04car-team.jpg[/IMG]
Too bad nobody will copy the formula and change the chassis requirements to be more suited to road racing (ie, better crash protection)....
| CirrusWRX | 05-12-2006 10:10 AM |
^Agreed - aren't they typically autox style with occasional skidpad or 1/4 mile tests?
| kwak | 05-12-2006 12:45 PM |
REXLR8, are you interested in just an open wheel car or close competition? The Runoffs have fantastic FV races and pretty good FF races. Which of the open wheel classes are popular near you? Would SRF be an option for you? They usually have huge fields across the country.
Whatever race class you decide on expenses always include consumables (tires, brakes, fuel, etc), entry fees, travel, tow rig and trailer, etc. Staying away from highly tweaked engines (FA) will keep your expenses down.
Whatever race class you decide on expenses always include consumables (tires, brakes, fuel, etc), entry fees, travel, tow rig and trailer, etc. Staying away from highly tweaked engines (FA) will keep your expenses down.
| REXLR8 | 05-12-2006 03:12 PM |
i just love racing. i auto-x with the wrx and have played around with karts before,but there is just something about formulas i love. It could be the open-wheel aspect, it could be the power to weight ratios, there is just something that jumps out to me that i love, but after thinking about it i really think karting is more up my alley right now as i am currently a student and mod my WRX and money is deffinitly not just lying around. meh, maybe in a couple years...
| leecea | 05-12-2006 03:53 PM |
Trade the WRX for an Ariel Atom :banana:
| RaceComp Engineering | 05-12-2006 03:59 PM |
[QUOTE=AlexP]Formula SAE.
[IMG]http://maepro.uta.edu/fsae/cars/04car-team.jpg[/IMG]
Too bad nobody will copy the formula and change the chassis requirements to be more suited to road racing (ie, better crash protection)....[/QUOTE]
Got to it before me.
Formula SAE is fast, competitive, and cheap (free for students, minus blood, sweat and tears :lol: ).
Next year for me hopefully :( .
And yes, it's not where it should be for any sort of real racing, but I like the variety of the cars and the innovation behind them.
I love the UTA car. Talked to one of their team leaders over on evom.net, always one of the most interesting entries.
Back to work, lunch is over :)
- Andrew
[IMG]http://maepro.uta.edu/fsae/cars/04car-team.jpg[/IMG]
Too bad nobody will copy the formula and change the chassis requirements to be more suited to road racing (ie, better crash protection)....[/QUOTE]
Got to it before me.
Formula SAE is fast, competitive, and cheap (free for students, minus blood, sweat and tears :lol: ).
Next year for me hopefully :( .
And yes, it's not where it should be for any sort of real racing, but I like the variety of the cars and the innovation behind them.
I love the UTA car. Talked to one of their team leaders over on evom.net, always one of the most interesting entries.
Back to work, lunch is over :)
- Andrew
| trhoppe | 05-12-2006 04:55 PM |
I haven't read the thread, but am I the only one who laughed at "cheap" and "formula car" in the same sentence?
-Tom
-Tom
| DrBiggly | 05-12-2006 06:21 PM |
[QUOTE=trhoppe]I haven't read the thread, but am I the only one who laughed at "cheap" and "formula car" in the same sentence?
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My thought is "relatively" cheap and not "absolutely" cheap.
Plus I believe that there is a distinction that has been touched on but yet to be made:
1) Racing mid-pack or just because
2) Racing to win
#2 is always more expensive and typically on orders of magnitudes moreso. :)
-Biggly
-Tom[/QUOTE]
My thought is "relatively" cheap and not "absolutely" cheap.
Plus I believe that there is a distinction that has been touched on but yet to be made:
1) Racing mid-pack or just because
2) Racing to win
#2 is always more expensive and typically on orders of magnitudes moreso. :)
-Biggly
| AlexP | 05-12-2006 08:52 PM |
[QUOTE=RaceComp Engineering]
Formula SAE is fast, competitive, and cheap (free for students, minus blood, sweat and tears :lol: ).[/QUOTE]
Huh, yeah, maybe for some, but not for all. Over 3 or 4 years of doing FSAE work (including grad school and after I starting working), I probably have a good 5 thousand invested across 3 cars.
If your team is fully funded, then yes, it's cheap. Otherwise, you have to make the decision between beer/girls and racecar. I'm not always sure that I made the right choice....
Formula SAE is fast, competitive, and cheap (free for students, minus blood, sweat and tears :lol: ).[/QUOTE]
Huh, yeah, maybe for some, but not for all. Over 3 or 4 years of doing FSAE work (including grad school and after I starting working), I probably have a good 5 thousand invested across 3 cars.
If your team is fully funded, then yes, it's cheap. Otherwise, you have to make the decision between beer/girls and racecar. I'm not always sure that I made the right choice....
| REX8 | 05-12-2006 09:00 PM |
:lol: [QUOTE=AlexP]Huh, yeah, maybe for some, but not for all. Over 3 or 4 years of doing FSAE work (including grad school and after I starting working), I probably have a good 5 thousand invested across 3 cars.
If your team is fully funded, then yes, it's cheap. Otherwise, you have to make the decision between beer/girls and racecar. I'm not always sure that I made the right choice....[/QUOTE]
Are you a UTA guy?
If not...how dare you choose them to post.... :lol:
If your team is fully funded, then yes, it's cheap. Otherwise, you have to make the decision between beer/girls and racecar. I'm not always sure that I made the right choice....[/QUOTE]
Are you a UTA guy?
If not...how dare you choose them to post.... :lol:
| ghschirtz | 05-12-2006 09:01 PM |
Personally, I like sedan racing more than the formula cars. It is sort of like flying, maybe. If you do it alot and regularly, then fine. The odd outing here and there would be difficult for me. I found the FF's at the Bondurant School too sensitive for my ham-fisted talents, whereas the Mustang was like an old friend from the second lap on. So I think there is a big decision about how much you want to put on the table. No question it was a thrill to even get into an FF, and shifting was a gas, just slam it through and away. Maybe with practice...
Mark Donohue drew a difference between the precision required to run open wheel cars and his Trans-Am Camaro, that the former took much more precision. One time they had some drivers over to look about running another car. The guy who had a great record in Formula B at the time was rather slower, trying to be precise.
Eastwood says a man has to know his limits. Just do that and you will be fine.
George
Mark Donohue drew a difference between the precision required to run open wheel cars and his Trans-Am Camaro, that the former took much more precision. One time they had some drivers over to look about running another car. The guy who had a great record in Formula B at the time was rather slower, trying to be precise.
Eastwood says a man has to know his limits. Just do that and you will be fine.
George
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